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Were playing cards a thing in Middle Earth?
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iavasthel
Registered User


Sep 11 2014, 9:51am

Post #1 of 54 (1412 views)
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Were playing cards a thing in Middle Earth? Can't Post

Just having random thoughts late into the night, and I was wondering if card games were a pastime in Middle Earth, or if playing cards were even invented. I'm mostly doubtful about it, but hoping that someone will have a definite answer! Thanks (:

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." -Dean O'Gorman


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 11 2014, 2:53pm

Post #2 of 54 (1108 views)
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Not to my knowledge [In reply to] Can't Post

They [hobbits] shot well with a bow…. If any Hobbit stooped for a stone, it was well to get quickly under cover…. –Prologue

So the Hobbits were probably very good at throwing/aiming games i.e. quoits, maybe a form of baseball or some such.

I know of no reference to playing cards or any type of board game anywhere, by anyone, in the books. ** Anyone?? **

The Hobbits (for one) were really good at gossiping, drinking and eating, and dancing, and generally having good “old-fashioned” fun, when they weren't tending the fields or “beating the bounds”. Smile

"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 11 2014, 3:00pm

Post #3 of 54 (1136 views)
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Not anywhere near definite. [In reply to] Can't Post

But playing cards may possibly be referenced in the chapter Shelob's Lair: Sam played his last trick. Or not.

Others may have a better answer.

******************************************
For a while the three companions remained silent, gazing after him. Then Aragorn spoke. "They will look for him from the White Tower," he said, "but he will not return from mountain or from sea." Then slowly he began to sing:

"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
All gather round his canoe now and cry
He had a heart of gold
And he wasn't very old
Oh why did such a feller have to die?"

Then Legolas sang:

"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
He's lookin' oh so purty and so nice
He looks like he's asleep
It's a shame that he won't keep
But the sun’s out and we're runnin' out a' ice."

Then Aragorn sang again:

"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
From Minas Tirith comes a weepin' sound
The East Wind for a spell
Will now blow a different smell
Til Boromir is underneath the ground."

So they ended. Then they turned their boat and drove it with all the speed they could against the stream back to Parth Galen.

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Sep 11 2014, 3:14pm

Post #4 of 54 (1116 views)
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Wasnt a game like chess referenced somewhere? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether it was an unfinished manuscript or story? I feel like there was something about Numenor or gondorians playing a table game that was similar?




"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 11 2014, 3:17pm

Post #5 of 54 (1113 views)
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There's the chess metaphors.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...used by Gandalf, Pippin, and Aragorn.

And references to "throws" and "last throws" which might indicate dice, or darts, or stones, or horseshoes, or basketballs, or, like you said, baseball. (Húrin may have referenced baseball in UT: "This will be a great throw, and one side must fall lower than it now stands.")

In UT's The Quest of Erebor Thorin says You are playing some crooked game of your own, Master Gandalf. which could be cards, or dice, or some sort of carnival game, or a reference to the 1919 TA "Black Robes" baseball scandal.

******************************************
For a while the three companions remained silent, gazing after him. Then Aragorn spoke. "They will look for him from the White Tower," he said, "but he will not return from mountain or from sea." Then slowly he began to sing:

"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
All gather round his canoe now and cry
He had a heart of gold
And he wasn't very old
Oh why did such a feller have to die?"

Then Legolas sang:

"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
He's lookin' oh so purty and so nice
He looks like he's asleep
It's a shame that he won't keep
But the sun’s out and we're runnin' out a' ice."

Then Aragorn sang again:

"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
From Minas Tirith comes a weepin' sound
The East Wind for a spell
Will now blow a different smell
Til Boromir is underneath the ground."

So they ended. Then they turned their boat and drove it with all the speed they could against the stream back to Parth Galen.

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 11 2014, 3:20pm

Post #6 of 54 (1117 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

He fell silent and sighed. ‘Well, no need to brood on what tomorrow may bring. For one thing, tomorrow will be certain to bring worse than today, for many days to come. And there is nothing more that I can do to help it. The board is set, and the pieces are moving. One piece that I greatly desire to find is Faramir, now the heir of Denethor. I do not think that he is in the City; but I have had no time to gather news. I must go. Pippin. I must go to this lords’ council and learn what I can. But the Enemy has the move, and he is about to open his full game. And pawns are likely to see as much of it as any, Peregrin son of Paladin, soldier of Gondor. Sharpen your blade!’
-Minas Tirith


Pippin looked at him: tall and proud and noble, as all the men that he had yet seen in that land; and with a glitter in his eye as he thought of the battle. ‘Alas! my own hand feels as light as a feather,’ he thought, but he said nothing. ‘A pawn did Gandalf say? Perhaps but on the wrong chessboard.’
-ibid


‘Neither shall we,’ said Aragorn. ‘If this be jest, then it is too bitter for laughter. Nay, it is the last move in a great jeopardy, and for one side or the other it will bring the end of the game.’ Then he drew Andúril and held it up glittering in the sun. ‘You shall not be sheathed again until the last battle is fought;’ he said.
-The Last Debate

******************************************
For a while the three companions remained silent, gazing after him. Then Aragorn spoke. "They will look for him from the White Tower," he said, "but he will not return from mountain or from sea." Then slowly he began to sing:

"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
All gather round his canoe now and cry
He had a heart of gold
And he wasn't very old
Oh why did such a feller have to die?"

Then Legolas sang:

"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
He's lookin' oh so purty and so nice
He looks like he's asleep
It's a shame that he won't keep
But the sun’s out and we're runnin' out a' ice."

Then Aragorn sang again:

"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
From Minas Tirith comes a weepin' sound
The East Wind for a spell
Will now blow a different smell
Til Boromir is underneath the ground."

So they ended. Then they turned their boat and drove it with all the speed they could against the stream back to Parth Galen.

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Sep 11 2014, 3:40pm

Post #7 of 54 (1100 views)
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They definitely were on the links... [In reply to] Can't Post

And playing a few rounds of golf:

In the year 2747 of the Third Age, a band of goblins from Mount Gram lead by chief Golfimbul invaded the Shire. They were met and confronted in the Greenfields by Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took and a force of Hobbits. Bandobras personally averted the invasion when he beheaded the goblin chief with a swing of his club. When Golfimbul's head rolled into a rabbit hole, the game of Golf was purportedly invented.



Wonder what Bilbo's handicap was Smile


(This post was edited by HeWhoArisesinMight on Sep 11 2014, 3:49pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 11 2014, 4:55pm

Post #8 of 54 (1090 views)
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Knight to King three - check [In reply to] Can't Post

Darkstone quoted:

In Reply To
But playing cards may possibly be referenced in the chapter Shelob's Lair: Sam played his last trick. Or not.

I don’t see game playing here. This was a bodily wrestling trick while fighting off Gollum.

And:

In Reply To
In UT's The Quest of Erebor Thorin says You are playing some crooked game of your own, Master Gandalf.

The only apropos word here is “game” which to me simply means “manipulation” or “scheme” not any type of card, or board, or throwing game.

Then:

In Reply To
He fell silent and sighed. ‘Well, no need to brood on what tomorrow may bring. For one thing, tomorrow will be certain to bring worse than today, for many days to come. And there is nothing more that I can do to help it. The board is set, and the pieces are moving.

‘A pawn did Gandalf say? Perhaps but on the wrong chessboard.’

Yes, “The board is set…” seems an unusual statement which could be a metaphor to “a board game”. Good catch. And the reference to chess is unmistakable. We could say that the use of the word “pawn” in most cases simply means “dupe” or “puppet”, but not in this instance, as clearly Pippin (for one) was familiar with the game of chess, which I reckon we could call a board game (what else?)! But still no credible reference to the OP original "card games"?

All in all Darkstone "mates"! Wink

"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 11 2014, 5:14pm

Post #9 of 54 (1075 views)
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The true story of The Battle of the Greenfields [In reply to] Can't Post

As sung by minstrel Farfal Hallowfide during each Shire Free Fair in commemoration of the invention of the irritating game of golf.

During the Battle of Greenfields there was a lull again,
As the Hobbits and Orcs ate till full again.
Then Golfimbul’s head did soar as Bullroarer yelled “Fore!”.
But the fact is now known - he took a mulligan.


CoolCool

"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 11 2014, 8:51pm

Post #10 of 54 (1064 views)
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It seems likely [In reply to] Can't Post

Card games would be a bit of an anomoly in Middle-earth, but not enough so to be bothersome. Historically, playing cards can be traced at least to the Ming Dynasty of Fourteenth Century China. Dice games, by contrast, go back at least as far as Ancient Rome; but, I imagine that they would have been also present in Middle-earth.

In Middle-earth I would imagine the card game to have been invented in Numenor, passing into Middle-earth with the Numenoreans who explored and colonized various regions, and eventually being passed down to the Hobbits (and possibly Dwarves and Elves). Even if there is nothing to textually support this in the legendarium, I think that the existence of card games in Middle-earth is a reasonable conjecture.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


iavasthel
Registered User


Sep 11 2014, 9:03pm

Post #11 of 54 (1061 views)
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Slightly unlikely, but not unreasonable [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll agree with that perspective on playing cards. I did research a little about card games in our world and did read about cards used during the Ming Dynasty, but I didn't consider dice games. Both activities sound fitting for Middle Earth, though.

And yes, chess is most definitely in existence in Middle Earth! Beorn had a large chess set of his own that we saw in An Unexpected Journey. (The mice were scurrying around on the board)

The invention of the game of golf is still one of my favorite stories, haha.

Thank you all so much for your input! I'm pretty much satisfied with all this, but if you'd still like to discuss more then by all means!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." -Dean O'Gorman

(This post was edited by iavasthel on Sep 11 2014, 9:05pm)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 11 2014, 10:45pm

Post #12 of 54 (1085 views)
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I must admit... [In reply to] Can't Post

that I can easily envision hobbit gammers getting together to play Bridge, textual evidence or not. Laugh

Silverlode



Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here!

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 12 2014, 2:30am

Post #13 of 54 (1056 views)
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Hah!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Somebody got it!

I was too tired to try to explain further.

******************************************
Dites-moi pourquoi,
Elves sont dans Helm's Deep?
Dites-moi pourquoi,
Haldir est mort?

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 12 2014, 2:32am)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 12 2014, 3:09am

Post #14 of 54 (1039 views)
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Of course! :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not that obscure a reference, is it? I don't play bridge myself (it sounds awfully complicated) but I do at least recognize the lingo. I had never focused on that line myself when reading, but it certainly is another item in the same category as express trains, mantel clocks, and umbrellas; a Middle-earth anachronism which reinforces the Shire as an island of rural England surrounded by High Fantasy on all sides. Well spotted.

Silverlode



Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here!

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



sador
Half-elven


Sep 12 2014, 3:19am

Post #15 of 54 (1053 views)
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No game specified, [In reply to] Can't Post

but Gandalf is an old hand at trash-talking.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Sep 12 2014, 12:07pm

Post #16 of 54 (1005 views)
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And I as well! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 12 2014, 1:04pm

Post #17 of 54 (1016 views)
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That's why he loves the Shire. [In reply to] Can't Post

He always wins at basketball.

******************************************
Dites-moi pourquoi,
Elves sont dans Helm's Deep?
Dites-moi pourquoi,
Haldir est mort?

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 12 2014, 1:38pm

Post #18 of 54 (1007 views)
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Yes, Gandalf was old enough to dribble. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 12 2014, 1:41pm

Post #19 of 54 (1006 views)
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He was notorious for traveling, though. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

******************************************
Dites-moi pourquoi,
Elves sont dans Helm's Deep?
Dites-moi pourquoi,
Haldir est mort?

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Sep 12 2014, 1:42pm

Post #20 of 54 (1037 views)
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More Middle Earth anachronisms.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting point, Silverlode...


There are a couple of other anachronisms in the legendarium. Bilbo has a time piece, uses handkerchiefs (as an accessory) and writes with a quill (feathered pen). Michel Delving also has a museum (the Mathom House). None of those things would have been invented in the ancient era that most of Middle Earth is based on (ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt). It makes one wonder why the Elves don't have clocks but the Hobbits do LOL (maybe magic is better than mechanics!)


The Shire is definitely out of place when you think of the wider landscape of Middle Earth (Bree and Laketown also seem out of place). I always imagined the Shire as the "real world" and Bilbo actually wandered into the "high-fantasy world."


What other anachronisms can we find in Middle Earth? Maybe topic for a new thread....


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 12 2014, 3:04pm

Post #21 of 54 (1022 views)
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Mantle Clocks and Other Time Pieces [In reply to] Can't Post

I always figured that mechanical clocks were an invention of either the Dwarves or the Numenoreans. The Elves wouldn't care enough about keeping track of time so precisely.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 12 2014, 6:11pm

Post #22 of 54 (1011 views)
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And traveling out-of-bounds. Hobbits win! [In reply to] Can't Post

Dribble = drool . . Double entendre -

"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 12 2014, 6:36pm

Post #23 of 54 (1001 views)
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More anachronisms ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Clarinets, viols, etc.
Brass buttons?

Gollum “…was watching Bilbo now from the distance with his pale eyes like telescopes.”.

Fireworks: ”The dragon passed like an express train . . .”

Folding umbrellas – Lobelia’s had to be the folding type for heisting spoons and sundry. Cool

"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Sep 12 2014, 6:46pm

Post #24 of 54 (1004 views)
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What about.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Eomer and Aragorn, taking it easy in the VAN during the battle?Cool

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 12 2014, 8:27pm

Post #25 of 54 (999 views)
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And Tooks driving trucks [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
You see, your dad, Mr. Peregrin , he’s never had no truck with this Lotho,



Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 1009). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

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