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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Feb 23 2008, 7:37pm
Post #1 of 27
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A Journey in the Dark V: Follow the light
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Whoops, sorry for the delay again, folks!
The Nine Walkers spend the night in the great hall of the Dwarrowdelf. Frodo has the first watch and, though he feels a sense of dread, he hears and sees nothing at all until near the end of his turn, when two luminous eyes seem to glimmer at him from the western archway.
Is it Gollum or could it be a goblin spy? And how does Frodo or anyone keep track of time in total darkness?
In the morning, light streams into the hall from a shaft. They will soon be able to leave Moria, and all are glad about that. Gimli now doubts that Balin ever was there at all.
How could that be, when there had been messengers back and forth between Balin's settlement and Erebor?
To get oriented, Gandalf leads the company toward the light. They discover a chamber, cluttered and dusty, and in the center is a "table" with a slab of white stone on top which turns out to be a tomb, with runes on top reading:
Balin Son of Fundin
Lord of Moria.
'He is dead then,' said Frodo. 'I feared it was so.' Gimli cast his hood over his face.
On your first reading, did you predict that Balin would be dead already when the Company came to Moria, or did you think he would be found alive?
Who was Daeron and how are his runes different from others?
Have you translated the runes yourself?
Tolkien stopped writing the story at this point and didn't pick it up again until a year later. Does this seem like a good stopping point to you?
Any other comments?
Where's Frodo?
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 23 2008, 11:42pm
Post #2 of 27
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Daeron was the minstrel of Thingol, and he had the hots for Lúthien, and his jealousy made him a royal pain to her and Beren.
He also is said to have invented these straight-line alphabetic characters (which bear a strange resemblance to the runes one sees inscribed on ancient stones in our world), which the Dwarves adapted for their own use. They're easier to write and read than the Tengwar.
Now you've brought up an interesting point: could those "points of light" have been a lone orc, rather than Gollum? Good question! Considering Pippin's pebble-tossing incident, the orc-spy is a good possibility!
You're right about Gimli's statement about Balin: it does not make sense at all, considering the messages.
Tolkien stopped at this point where Gandalf, Frodo, Trotter, Sam, Merry, Faramond, and Boromir stood beside the tomb of Balin son of Burin. As he said, "foresight had failed", although he did have sketch notes which showed the return of Gandalf after he fell fighting a Black Rider (changed to Balrog)! But Tolkien did return to the beginning at this point, and in a "tangle of change" (according to Christopher T.), he did an extensive re-writing of the earlier sections, and by the time we return to the tomb of Balin son of Fundin, the Fellowship exists in its final form.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Beren IV
Gondor
Feb 24 2008, 2:24am
Post #3 of 27
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Is it Gollum or could it be a goblin spy? And how does Frodo or anyone keep track of time in total darkness?
The first time through I didn't know what it was. However, it almost has to be Gollum.
How could that be, when there had been messengers back and forth between Balin's settlement and Erebor?
The Author slipped up!
On your first reading, did you predict that Balin would be dead already when the Company came to Moria, or did you think he would be found alive?
I expected that he would be dead.
Tolkien stopped writing the story at this point and didn't pick it up again until a year later. Does this seem like a good stopping point to you?
Well, it's a cliffhanger!
We now know that Balin is dead and that the Dwarf-colony failed. This leaves us with the burning question: why?
This is very much a "to be continued" sort of ending, it makes us turn the page into the next chapter, which is quite possibly the most exciting chapter in the entire book, and really the only one in which a magical confrontation actually occurs (at least in part) "on-stage".
Tolkien needed to have an idea of what would happen now, and apparently he did. However, what he wrote in makes a lot more sense than what he had notes on!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Beren IV
Gondor
Feb 24 2008, 2:30am
Post #4 of 27
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Who doesn't have the hots for Lúthien?
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Lúthien is by far the most and arguably the only character anywhere in Tolkien's legendarium who truly has a sexuality, as opposed to just a gender. She's perhaps the only person, certainly the only major character, whom anybody actually desires.
Lúthien is, in some sense, modeled after Tolkien's wife Edith, and the meeting between her and Beren in the glade was based off of Tolkien seeing Edith herself dancing in a glade in their youth. Do you suppose that this is why Lúthien is Tolkien's only truly sexual character, that she is in part based off of the only woman whom Tolkien himself had a sexual relationship?
Also, what do you suppose was Daeron thinking about in that he had the hots for Lúthien? Did Daeron want to force her to marry against her will?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Cyberia
The Shire
Feb 24 2008, 3:51am
Post #5 of 27
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She must be (literally) breathtakingly beautiful, given the innate natural beauty of Elves and how she leaves them all behind, apparently. Remember how Gimli felt when he first saw Galadriel? To see Luthien must be a profoundly moving experience. A Maia and even a Vala desired her.
And hello all, this is my first post here.
Cyberia
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a.s.
Valinor
Feb 24 2008, 4:31am
Post #7 of 27
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"an seileachan"
"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.
"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Feb 24 2008, 8:25pm
Post #8 of 27
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His part in the most-accepted version of the L/B saga isn't exactly minimal - he was supposedly the snitch who told Daddy that his little girl was messing around with some low(er-species-of)-life. And didn't he end up pining for her so badly, that he wandered away, never to return?
Probably ended up becoming Tinfang Warble, this fey fay...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Beren IV
Gondor
Feb 25 2008, 3:24am
Post #9 of 27
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We discussed Melkor's "lust" for Lúthien before on this forum, and wondered what that could signify. It's the only time in the entire legendarium that lust is represented as a sin, which has gotten many of us to have odd conceptions about what it might mean in Tolkien (there are no instances of extramarital sex anywhere in the entire legendarium that we are aware of). Someone suggested that Melkor created the Orcs by perverting Elves, and suggested the disquieting idea that what He wanted to do with Lúthien might have been to corrupt her into something evil and ugly, not simply to haul her off to His bedchamber...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Beren IV
Gondor
Feb 25 2008, 3:27am
Post #10 of 27
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Yeah, always wondered about Daeron
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I will say that of the characters who desire Lúthien, I am not sure that it is ever pure lust. Beren falls in love with her. Daeron might also be in love with her, understanding her as a supremely gifted artist and probable musician as well. Celegorm and Curufin have political reasons for wanting to marry Lúthien. Sauron and Morgoth may want to corrupt her into something horribly evil, not just sleep with her. Undeniably Lúthien is a sexual character, even if all of the rest of Tolkien's characters are not, but even in her case is all of the desire for her really just for sex?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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ArathornJax
Lorien
Feb 25 2008, 6:20am
Post #11 of 27
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I always suspected that Balin was dead when I read the book. The emptiness of Moria and the lack of not running into any dwarves nor hearing from them for a long time at the council of Elrond kinda of foreshadowed that for me.
I think it has to be Gollum following the Fellowship. Aragorn hints at this later that he already knew.
In terms of Luthien, I have to say that regardless of physical beauty, I think for Tolkien it goes much deeper. Edith was his Luthien and we know that Tolkien was capture/captive to her beauty, much as Beren was with Luthien. So though I think it was with their physical beauty that capture their men/lovers, I think it goes deeper to the very soul of Luthien. Beren was captured not only by her physical beauty, but by the very beauty of her soul.
I have no backing for this from the book or works, and am applying just my gut instinct, and perhaps my own experience with my wife, but after 20 + years of marriage, I can say it was/is my wife's physical beauty and the beauty of her soul that has captivated me, and continues to captivate me. It is what has made all the obstacles, trials, and sacrifices in our marriage worth every minute, and something I wouldn't change. Perhaps that is one reason (of several) that I really enjoy that story.
Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.
H.W. Longfellow
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Feb 25 2008, 5:03pm
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She's perhaps the only person, certainly the only major character, whom anybody actually desires.
I agree with you about Luthien being desirable (the scene where she dances for Morgoth is amazing.) But doesn't Eowyn desire Aragorn when she first meets him? I know it's explained away as being a desire for escaping her role and admiring his power etc, but it always looked like something more to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 25 2008, 7:00pm
Post #13 of 27
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Is it Gollum or could it be a goblin spy?
Well, Gollum’s leitmotif is his eyes, so I’ll say it’s Gollum.
And how does Frodo or anyone keep track of time in total darkness?
Probably a portable mantle clock. Merry used one back in Crickhollow. He knew what time it was despite it being in the wee dark hours of a foggy morning:
Frodo woke suddenly. It was still dark in the room. Merry was standing there with a candle in one hand, and banging on the door with the other. 'All right! What is it?' said Frodo, still shaken and bewildered.
'What is it!' cried Merry. 'It is time to get up. It is half past four and very foggy. Come on! Sam is already getting breakfast ready. Even Pippin is up. I am just going to saddle the ponies, and fetch the one that is to be the baggage-carrier. Wake that sluggard Fatty! At least he must get up and see us off.'
Soon after six o'clock the five hobbits were ready to start.
Of course some people do have an innate sense of time.
In the morning, light streams into the hall from a shaft. They will soon be able to leave Moria, and all are glad about that. Gimli now doubts that Balin ever was there at all.
How could that be, when there had been messengers back and forth between Balin's settlement and Erebor?
It’s the old joke about the wife catching her husband in bed with another woman: “Who you gonna believe? Me or your own eyes?” This part emphasizes the dark, spooky, other-worldly nature of the desolation of Moria. The evidence of the messengers was received in the bright, comfortable reality of the outside world. Now Gimli’s own senses see an entirely different, more immediate reality that directly contradicts what he was told. Who’s he going to believe: The messengers, or his own eyes?
Interestingly, this dichotomy of what everyone knows versus later impressions is a not uncommon theme in the book. Lorien is first known as a perilous place, but the Fellowship later senses that it is not. (But really, it is.) Gondor is extolled as the bastion of the heroic and wise. Yet later Gandalf and Pippin find out it is not. (But it turns out it is.) Everyone knows the quest to Mordor will be fatal to Frodo, but it turns out he survives. (Yet he doesn’t.)
To get oriented, Gandalf leads the company toward the light. They discover a chamber, cluttered and dusty, and in the center is a "table" with a slab of white stone on top which turns out to be a tomb, with runes on top reading:
Balin Son of Fundin
Lord of Moria.
'He is dead then,' said Frodo. 'I feared it was so.' Gimli cast his hood over his face.
On your first reading, did you predict that Balin would be dead already when the Company came to Moria, or did you think he would be found alive?
Well, Balin survived The Hobbit, and everyone has been talking about him so far, and there has been a big build up, so yeah, I was thinking he’d be found alive.
My main question is why does Tolkien put these words in Frodo's mouth? I'd think they'd be more apt coming from Aragorn since he's the one who had the misgivings about going into Mordor in the first place. (In the film, with the misgivings reversed, they seem more apt coming from Gandalf.)
Who was Daeron…
He was a minstrel to Thingol or Doriath.
…and how are his runes different from others?
They’re the original runes. Previously Elves wrote in cute curlycue letters, with little hearts (or some sort of similar marks) over the “i”s and other such silly flourishes. (Probably also signed with little bunnies and other girly-girly stuff.) For some bizarre reason Daeron decided to write on rocks instead of paper. (Don’t ask me why. I’m sure it seemed like a good idea at the time.) Needless to say, he wasted a lot of time and broke a lot of rocks trying to chisel curved letters into stone before he gave it up as a bad idea. (Probably took a very long time. You know how stubborn stiff necked Elves are.) Then he got a flash of brilliance. Just get rid of all those pesky curved letters that were messing things up and make up a whole new alphabet! So he came up with the Certhas Daeron. (Or, rather immodestly, Daeron’s Runes.) The Elves remained unimpressed and probably made quite a few rude jokes about sweating up a storm taking an hour to carve a word in rock when you could much more easily write a whole story in the same amount of time in ink and parchment. However, some visiting Dwarves saw Daerons’s runes and went ape over them. Dwarves loved carving stone and here was more stuff they could carve on it! So they immediately started using the runes much to Daeron’s delight. Now since they were the beta version, the original runes were a bit crude. So Daeron refined them to the Angerthas Daeron. Some Elven scholars claimed that the Elves of Eregion were the ones who refined it, but really, given that all the Elves thought Daeron was absolutely nuts for writing on stones that seems very unlikely. The Dwarves eventually came up with their own version of the alphabet called Angerthas Moria.
Anyway, the fact that these runes are “written in the tongues of Men and Dwarves” I’d say they were Angertas Moria rather than Certhas Daeron, but it’s not like I’m an expert.
Have you translated the runes yourself?
A long time ago in a bedroom far far away.
Tolkien stopped writing the story at this point and didn't pick it up again until a year later. Does this seem like a good stopping point to you?
Well, it’s one of those rather perverse last minute authorial twists. Here we are all waiting to finally meet Balin who has been continually referenced all through the book and now we find he’s dead. Like Waiting For Godot. You wait all through the play for Godot to show up but he never does. Or say, like just about all Robert A. Heinlein books. He starts off writing about one thing and then halfway through he tosses the plot out the window and goes in an entirely different direction. One can almost picture Heinlein writing the first half, setting it aside for a bit, then going back and saying “I’m tired of writing about an interstellar spy. I’ll make him the richest guy in the galaxy instead!”
Similarly, Tolkien seems to like to defy expectations. Given that he's trying to get the reader to suspend belief and accept a Green Sun, it's odd that he frequently takes a big chance at losing it. But he always seems to pull it off in the end.
Any other comments?
It’s interesting that Eärendil’s shield is scored with protective runes, Andúril is covered with many runes, and the doors of Moria are inscribed with runes of power. One wonders, why is block writing more powerful than script?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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pandemonium
The Shire
Feb 25 2008, 7:34pm
Post #14 of 27
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Lay of Leithian: amorous gods, honey-sweet kisses and Morgoth's brazen hand
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Yep, I'd agree that Eowyn's attraction to Aragorn is a reasonable example. With regard to Lúthien, Celegorm may have political motivations, but in The Silmarillion ("Of Beren and Lúthien) Tolkien writes:
He (Huan) brought her to Celegorm, and Luthien, learning that he was a prince of the Noldor and foe of Morgoth, was glad; and she declared herself, casting aside her cloak. So great was her sudden beauty revealed beneath the sun that Celegorm became enamoured of her; but he spoke her fair, and promised that she would find help in her need if she returned with hom now to Nargothrond. Sounds like Celegorm has more in mind that just leveraging Thingol via marriage to his darling daughter.
It probably has been discussed before as per Beren IV's remarks (I only recently registered after a long hiatus from this site so color me ignorant), but the following stanzas from the "Lay of Leithian" (History of Middle-earth, vol III, The Lays of Beleriand) are kind of fun. Orthodox purists will not consider this canonical, but to me, Tolkien's collection of posthumously published writings offer a fascinating glimpse into his thoughts as a writer and world-builder.
In their quest for a Silmaril or two, Beren and Lúthien have arrived in Angband. Lúthien stands before Morgoth and tells him that she has rebelled against her father...
'Yet every road and path will lead ( line 4008)
Northward at last, and here of need
I trembling come with humble brow,
and here before thy throne I bow;
for Luthien hath many arts for solace sweet of kingly hearts.'
Then Morgoth replies...
'And here of need thou shalt remain
bow, Lúthien, in joy or pain -
or pain, the fitting doom for all,
for rebel, thief, and upstart thrall.
Why should ye not in our fate share
of woe and travail? Or should I spare
to slender limb and body frail
breaking torment? Of what avail
here dost thou deem thy babbling song
and foolish laughter? Minstrels strong
are at my call. Yet I will give
a respite brief, a while to live,
a little while, though purchased dear
to Lúthien the fair and clear,
a pretty toy for idle hour.
In slothful gardens many a flower
like thee the amorous gods are used
honey-sweet to kiss, and cast then bruised,
their fragrance loosing, under feet.
But here we seldom find such sweet
amid our labours long and hard,
from godlike idleness debarred.
And who would not taste the honey-sweet
lying to lips, or crush with feet
the soft cool tissue of pale flowers.
easing like gods the dragging hours?
A! Curse the Gods! O hunger dire,
O blinding thirst's unending fire!
One moment shall ye cease, and slake
your sting with morsel I here take!'
In his eyes the fire to flame was fanned,
and forth he stretched his brazen hand. (line 4045) Here Morgoth's description of the Valar makes them seem more like the gods of the Greek pantheon (amorous gods!) and his contempt (resentment?) of their idleness is pretty obvious. These passages (to me anyway) carry a lot of sensuality churning in those stanzas and might add some sub-text to "Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor." So, yeah, I'd say there's sexuality involved albeit of a potentially cruel flavor. Of course, the Valar - including Morgoth - originally beget children in Tolkien's earlier writings.
My apologies - my yammering is quite off-topic given the original post, and I expect you all have hashed this out before, but this my inner Silm/HoMe geek couldn't resist. 
(This post was edited by pandemonium on Feb 25 2008, 7:37pm)
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Beren IV
Gondor
Feb 25 2008, 9:31pm
Post #15 of 27
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The only orthodox story of Lúthien is the partial song that Aragorn sings in A Knife in the Dark! 
There is no question that Lúthien is a very attractive woman, and that her beauty plays an integral part in the power that she represents. And certainly in HoME, the sexual desire for her is much more important in the earlier versions than in the later versions. However:
Lúthien has immense magical aptitude on account of her grace and her enchantment. Her physical beauty is an integral part of that grace and, consequently, power. Celegorm would like to leverage Thingol by marrying Lúthien, but the real reason for this exchange is that Celegorm understands that Lúthien herself is dangerous. She's after the Silmarils, just like he is, and she might get them, and if she does, getting them from her is going to be at least as hard as getting them from Morgoth. By marrying her, Celegorm could hope control her, and thereby eliminate her as a threat. Later, he will try to eliminate her by actually killing her.
As for Celegorm not killing her now, well, let's put it this way: she charmed him!
Bottom line, when Lúthien flaunts her beauty, she's using magic. It's not just that she's attractive (she is, but there's more than that).
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Feb 27 2008, 4:43am
Post #17 of 27
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Interestingly, this dichotomy of what everyone knows versus later impressions is a not uncommon theme in the book. Lorien is first known as a perilous place, but the Fellowship later senses that it is not. (But really, it is.) Gondor is extolled as the bastion of the heroic and wise. Yet later Gandalf and Pippin find out it is not. (But it turns out it is.) Everyone knows the quest to Mordor will be fatal to Frodo, but it turns out he survives. (Yet he doesn’t.)
That is an interesting observation, as is your "Waiting for Godot" analogy. Thanks also for your thorough explanation of runes, but I have this to say about your final question:
One wonders, why is block writing more powerful than script?
BECAUSE IT'S THE EQUIVALENT OF SHOUTING!
Where's Frodo?
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Cactus Wren
The Shire
Feb 27 2008, 9:08am
Post #18 of 27
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IMO, there's something just right, something perfectly observed, about the simple line "Gimli cast his hood over his face." Only a little later we see Gimli
helping Gandalf to translate the book of records. In that brief time, he's done his grieving for his cousin -- but he is a Dwarf. The Dwarfs don't teach their language to others, not even the name for mithril; they don't explain their customs to others; they are a close and secretive and above all a private people. Gimli's done his grieving, behind his hood, with no one to watch. His grief was private, completely his own, to be shared with no one.
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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Beren IV
Gondor
Feb 28 2008, 2:45am
Post #19 of 27
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I wouldn't say "for nothing"...
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The unpublished works of J.R.R. Tolkien are not orthodox for the interpretation of his fantasy world, but the glimpses that we get of the backstory in LotR leave a lot of holes to be filled. Fortunately or unfortunately, there are several versions of each of the stories, and none of them really agree with the implications of LotR, which portray the ancient world as a much more sophistocated and fantastical place than you get the impression by reading the Sil. So they are worth critique, but ultimately, if you want to envision a mainstream Tolkien backstory, the best you can say is "it was something like this".
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 6:54am
Post #20 of 27
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Did you predict that Balin would be dead already when the Company came to Moria?
I only remember that I was sad to learn of it.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 6:56am
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Don't forget Larnach's daughter. //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 6:57am
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 6:57am
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I agree: C.S. Lewis’s comments on the “Lay” are fun. //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 6:58am
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Is Frodo already starting to lose hope? //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Mar 22 2009, 8:01am
Post #25 of 27
(1316 views)
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Larnach of course is not what I would consider a major character, and his daughter likewise, so my statement about Lúthien being the only major character remains. But yes, I think you are right that Lú is not the only character.
There is also of course Lúthien's mother Melian, who enchants Elwë before Doriath is founded, but we are only told in the vaguest of terms what that particular meeting was like, and how much Elwë actually desired her sexually. Really, the same is true of all of Tolkien's characters - even in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, Tolkien does not talk about the desire for sex, only the desire to procreate. Apart from certain characters being interested in Lúthien and, circumstances would say yes, Larnach's daughter, I think you (or really, Curious) could make the case that nobody in Arda is interested in sex, except as a means to procreate.
The paleobotanist is back!
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*snort* 
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