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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 7 2014, 6:10am
Post #1 of 57
(6114 views)
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DOS Chapter of The Week (CHOW): "The Nature Of Evil "
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(courtesy of Blackfox, taken from the June/July CHOW sign-up thread)
The Nature of Evil
(Runtime: 01:02:05 - 01:05:29)
Hello Everyone!
Welcome to this week's CHOW. This is a bit rushed, no thanks to the late sign-up notice   , so please forgive any glaring issues. As with my first CHOW, I've decided to do combo images of the screencaps, so please bear with the compromise and the combination (therefore smaller) images. (All screenshots were sourced from the CHOW organisers' recommended site.)
Here's hoping with no distracting ongoing excitement, this CHOW will see higher participation the one on "The Elvenking".
== @@@ ==
The chapter starts with a wide, aerial shot of Bolg and his posse running down the river banks, chasing after the Dwarves as we hear Thranduil's voice. The background music is a slight variation on the theme during Thranduil's audience with Thorin in the earlier chapter, "The Elven King". It is more bass-heavy and sombre, without the "thriller" aspect of the lighter string section in that scene.
The scene changes and we see Thranduil's face as he continues his dramatic pronouncement. The scene is slowly panning and following Thranduil as he paced. Tauriel is behind him, and then Legolas in the foreground, focused and looking down and restraining something or someone. We also see they are in the throne-atrium, and the panning also show details of the architecture in the distance.
Thranduil: "Such is the nature of evil. Out there in the vast ignorance of the world it festers and spreads, a shadow that grows in the dark. A sleepless malice as black as the oncoming wall of night. So it ever was; so will it always be. In time, all foul things come forth."
As Thranduil finishes his monologue and folds his arms, the camera focused on the foreground where Legolas is still looking and we see he has his knife pressed to the neck of the orc, Narzug, he and Tauriel captured.
As Legolas asked Narzug about the orcs' purpose for tracking the Dwarves, we get a aerial shot of the throne-atrium, complete with attending armoured guards as before.
1a: What did you think of the way the scene segues from the orcs to the throne-atrium of Thranduil, and then to the shot of Narzug being held at knife-point by Legolas, with Thranduil in the background? Does it surprise you to see the elegant Elvenking leading an orc interrogation?
1b: What did you think of Thranduil's lead-in monologue?
1c: Why do you think this interrogation is being held in the open, and like Thorin's audience, in the throne-atrium?
1d: Why are there only 2 guards on the lower steps of the throne-atrium this time compared to Thorin's audience where there were at least 4 more along the raised platform on either side of the floor?
1e: What is your impression of the details of the surroundings this time round?
Narzug is gloating as he replies and informs Legolas there won't be thirteen Dwarves soon. He proceeds to helpfully explain why, and we see Tauriel's concern as he describes how the orcs have shot a Morgul shaft into Kili, and he should be feeling the effects of fatal poisoning.
Tauriel orders Narzug to answer Legolas' question. But Narzug spits it back at her, snarling that he does not take orders from dogs.
Legolas advises Narzug it's not wise to antagonise Tauriel as she brandishes her knives.
Tauriel then asks Narzug if he likes killing things and death. As he provokes her with some snarls and lip-licking in reply, Tauriel exclaims she will give it to him and launches into an attack.
Thranduil who has been still and silent shouts "Enough!" in Elvish, and Tauriel halts her killing blow immediately, right at Narzug's face.
2a: Does it seem like Morgul blades are easy to come by 60 years earlier than the events of LotR?
2b: Why would Tauriel display such concern for the wounded Kili? Would she be so riled up if it was another Dwarf who was shot?
2c: Thranduil has been observing the proceedings quietly. What do you think he's thinking about Tauriel's reaction?
2d: What is your impression of Tauriel essentially stopping mid-stroke at just a word from Thranduil?
2e: What do you think Narzug is thinking at this point?
As Narzug continues his provocation, Thranduil orders Tauriel to leave immediately. These few words are all the Elvish we hear from the Elvenking in the movie. As Tauriel composes herself, she exchanges a look with Legolas. Then she leaves the throne-atrium as Thranduil announces: "I do not care about one dead Dwarf." Tauriel seems to be thinking about something as Thranduil says it. The music also changes, reducing instruments which accentuating a note of inevitability and a feel of ponderous fate.
Thranduil tells Narzug to answer the question, and then assures him he has nothing to fear, that if he shares what he knows, Thranduil will set him free. Narzug visibly relaxes at this. The music has quietened down even further, leaving only a bass string and a very low drum beat to accompany Thranduil's offer.
Legolas asks Narzug why they were pursuing the Dwarves and what is Thorin's importance to the orcs, to which Narzug sneers that Thorin will never be king. Legolas' response that there will be not be a King in Erebor while Smaug nests there elicits more sneering from Narzug who tell him he knows nothing and that "Your world will burn". While they speak, Thranduil begins pacing again.
3a: What is Tauriel thinking, hearing the portentous words from her King about Kili's fate?
3b: What does the look between Tauriel and Legolas mean?
3c: What did you think of Thranduil's offer of freedom? Was Narzug naive to think he would actually be set free?
3d: Narzug's hatred and disdain for Thorin seems to outweigh the vaulted Elf-Orc enmity. Why would this be so?
3e: Is Legolas' statement about Erebor something he believes or a ruse to elicit more information from Narzug?
Legolas intimidates Narzug, ordering him to explain what he means. Narzug announces that "Our time has come again." He goes on to say "My master serves the One." At this point, the music picks up the tempo again, adding back strings that evokes a sense of growing horror. We see Thranduil coming into focus, and he seems deep in thought.
Narzug is still talking. The music is building a crescendo as we see growing concern or worry on Thranduil's face. Calling Legolas "Elfing," Narzug continues to blusters: "Death is upon you. The flames of war are upon you.” Narzug begins to laugh.
4a: Who is Narzug's master? And who is "the One"?
4b: Narzug seems to be know about the big plans. Was this usual for orc grunts? Or was Narzug a commissioned officer in the orc corps?
4c: Was Narzug cocky with confidence or a false sense of security when he condescends on Legolas with the "Elfing" term?
4d: Why did you think Thranduil was getting concerned with Narzug's words?
In a flash, Thranduil beheads Narzug with nary a backward glance. The music is silent by this point and all we hear is the keen sound of Thranduil's blade as he swings it. Legolas was caught by surprise. He asks Thranduil why did he behead the orc when he had promised to set him free. Thranduil appears to be still be preoccupied for a moment before he answers Legolas and said he did keep his promise to free the orc, "I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."
Thranduil paces around the orc's twitching body and steps on the orc's leg to stop the twitching. Legolas watches and insists the orc could have more information they might get.
5a: Were you surprised at Thranduil's action? What impression did it give you when he beheaded the orc? Was his confidence and ability with the sword a surprise?
5b: Why was Legolas surprised? Was he unhappy with the timing or the act of the beheading itself?
5c: What did you think was going through Thranduil's mind when he drew his sword? Was it a voluntary action in the moment?
5d: What did you think of Thranduil's assertion that he kept his promise to Narzug?
5e: Does Legolas seem upset at the premature loss of a source of information or was he upset at something else?
Thranduil tells Legolas there's nothing more Narzug could have told him, and walks off sheathing his sword with a stylish florish, and we hear the sound of the blade as it is swung around and sheathed. As he descends the steps, Legolas asks what Narzug meant by "flames of war". The music starts again, with ominous portent as Thranduil answers, with great concern in his voice, that "It means they intend to unleash a weapon so great it will destroy all before it."
As the guards at the bottom of the steps turn around to go up to the throne-atrium and clear the mess up, Thranduil turns around and orders the hatches battened down, with the watch doubled at all borders, including roads and rivers. The music continues to build, with more brass added.
6a: What did you think of Thranduil's facility with his sword here? Was it a surprise he is such an adept at swordsmanship?
6b: What kind of weapon do you think will be unleashed, that could cause such grave concern in Thranduil? How would he know or guess at the weapon and the magnitude of its destructive abilities?
6c: Thranduil already seem to run the realm as a militant state. Did you think security could be further tightened?
Thranduil continues and says "Nothing moves but I hear of it. No one enters this kingdom, and no one leaves it."
The music continues its inexorable progression as Legolas gives the King's order at the front gates. But a gaurd there turns around and asked "What about Tauriel?" as the music quietens down to suspenseful strings again. Legolas is concerned, and asked in turn "What about her?" As the guard provides the details, the music starts to build again. Legolas is looking out to the path into the forest path.
7a: Is it possible to have surveillance at such a high level that Thranduil literally knows everything going on within his realm?
7b: Legolas carries out the King's orders. What office would he hold in Thranduil's court/military to be entrusted the task of overseeing the King's instructions?
7c: What did you think of Tauriel's action? What do you think Legolas will do next?
7d: How do you think Thranduil will react when he finds out Tauriel has left without permission and has essentially gone AWOL?
General questions
8a: Did the scene change your perception of the following characters, from the earlier scenes? Why or why not?
i) Thranduil
ii) Legolas
iii) Tauriel
iv) Mirkwood Elves in general
v) Orcs
8b: What did you think of the respective portrayals by the actors?
8c: What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the orc close-ups, the background renderings of the Halls?
8d: Book readers: As you know, this is a totally non-canon scene. What do you think of this scene overall? Likes and dislikes?
8e: Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?
8f: Any other comments or thoughts?
== @@@ ==
Well, that was another long one. 
For your patience and participation: Thank you!
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
 Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
 Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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 Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 7 2014, 9:28am
Post #2 of 57
(5629 views)
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So I'm putting my thoughts separately to keep the objectivity of the OP. Here we go...
1a: What did you think of the way the scene segues from the orcs to the throne-atrium of Thranduil, and then to the shot of Narzug being held at knife-point by Legolas, with Thranduil in the background? Does it surprise you to see the elegant Elvenking leading an orc interrogation?
I like it, and the segue contrasts very well the orcs and the Elves and how each conducts "business". The orcs are all bluster and aggression while the Elves show introspection and deliberation. I was initially surprised to realise Thranduil is essentially rolling up his sleeves and is conducting the interrogation himself along with Legolas and Tauriel. But it makes sense since title and the attendant station-entitlement seemed to be a construct more of Man's vanity than with Elves, except for rulers and certain "privileges" like a robe with a long train.
1b: What did you think of Thranduil's lead-in monologue?
To me, the monologue is a little insight into Thranduil's view of the world outside Mirkwood, and the dangers the Woodland Realm faced continually. It is, to say the least, a very bleak, portentous, and pessimistic picture, and "In time, all foul things come forth" gives that sense of inevitability of evil showing itself and encroaching. But interestingly, it also bears accents of a unspoken promise of what happens to foul things that come forth, mess around in the Woodland Realm and land in the Elves' hands, because as Thranduil finishes and folds his arms, the camera focused on the foreground where Legolas is still looking and we see he has his knife pressed to the neck of the orc, Narzug, he and Tauriel captured.
The way Thranduil paces also reminds me of a big cat circling its prey. Though he also moves around Thorin and even does that serpentine twist, there is a sense of very different moods. With Thorin, it feels like Thranduil was intrigued and amused at what the Dwarves were doing in his realm, a tempest against a rock as some have mentioned and he seemed to have had some fun (until Thorin got too ungraciously rude), but with the orc, there's a sense of solemn and even dangerous intent. These two scenes contrast again with how still Thranduil is with his own folk, as we see in his scene with Tauriel. There Tauriel is the one pacing, but it is more an inherent restlessness of being, not the intent that Thranduil conveys when he paces.
Of course, Thranduil also has his stillness, and we see this when he assumes a position that seems to indicate he was an observer in the proceedings to be conducted by Legolas and Tauriel.
1c: Why do you think this interrogation is being held in the open, and like Thorin's audience, in the throne-atrium?
It's certainly interesting that both Thorin's audience and this interrogation are held in the same place, that is, where Thranduil's throne is set. Maybe there's an element of the shock-and-awe value of the throne-atrium's open grandeur and view. But practically, holding interrogation and receptions for hostile "guests" in the open atrium surely hold its own set of risks - potential damage to the throne and the area, prisoners running loose , injuries to by-standers (though how likely is that in a militant state where everybody seem to be in some mode of battle-readiness?) and the intensity of the conversations scarring the faint of heart, or little ones who happen to be within earshot.
Granted, the Mirkwood Elves probably didn't take prisoners as a matter of course. By that, I mean the nature of the foes they faced in their day-to-day didn't necessitate the need usually. Spiders? Kill on sight. Orcs? Kill on sight. Wargs? Kill on sight. Anything disagreeable and not obviously a member of the Free Peoples? Kill on sight. It's the Free Peoples bumbling about the forest, causing ruckuses that are harder to manage, as we've seen in the earlier scene.
Also, the Elves, while "less wise and more dangerous" and highly suspicious of strangers, have no taste for torture or ill-treatment of prisoners, rare though they may be, especially Thranduil himself. Again we see this in the earlier scene where the Dwarves were merely interrogated and then imprisoned. No one's getting pulled over the rack or missing digits and teeth.
So I feel it is a matter of practicality in the lack of proper torture or interrogation facilities within the Halls, and the throne-atrium double-up at need.
1d: Why are there only 2 guards on the lower steps of the throne-atrium this time compared to Thorin's audience where there were at least 4 more along the raised platform on either side of the floor?
With Thorin, Thranduil's aim seemed to be impression and intimidation, therefore the bigger array of guards. But with the orc, it is merely practical to have the guards there in case the orc got loose. Also, Legolas and Tauriel are present, and Thranduil himself is armed.
1e: What is your impression of the details of the surroundings this time round?
For me, I find the details breathtaking, and it is fascinating the kind of attention the production team consistently give to these minutiae.
2a: Does it seem like Morgul blades are easy to come by 60 years earlier than the events of LotR?
Certainly feels that way to me, since the orcs seem to have them made into arrow shafts as well, and any ol' orc could be carrying one.
2b: Why would Tauriel display such concern for the wounded Kili? Would she be so riled up if it was another Dwarf who was shot?
I would think her extra-concern is specific to Kili. Which leads again to confusion about the vaulted "relationships" between the trio. But this has been discussed elsewhere and will continue to, so I'll leave it at that here.
2c: Thranduil has been observing the proceedings quietly. What do you think he's thinking about Tauriel's reaction?
I believe Thranduil would have noted Tauriel's reaction and suspected something, especially when she started blustering Narzug with more than just bad-cop swagger.
2d: What is your impression of Tauriel essentially stopping mid-stroke at just a word from Thranduil?
We have been treated to the Elves' superior reflexes in Legolas' fight scenes in LotR and earlier in this move with the Spider cleanup. But this is the first time we've seen up-close an alternative demonstration of it in the way Tauriel stops her killing blow at a word from Thranduil. If she was a human, she would already have orc blood all over her despite hearing the command. So I'm impressed, and doubly impressed with Thranduil's confidence and control of the situation, that a mere command would stop anything he doesn't like, no matter how far it's gone.
2e: What do you think Narzug is thinking at this point?
Big relief probably.
3a: What is Tauriel thinking, hearing the portentious words from her King about Kili's fate?
Probably some angsty emoting like "Oh crap... what can I do?!"
3b: What does the look between Tauriel and Legolas mean?
Legolas probably was wondering what's got her in a twist, while Tauriel's going "It's complicated. Tell you later."
3c: What did you think of Thranduil's offer of freedom? Was Narzug naive to think he would be free?
Thranduil seemed to prefer dangling carrots than use the stick. Again, I think this is in keeping with the nature of the Elves not to employ torture and such. However, I did question the wisdom, and therefore authenticity of the offer, since letting an orc who has seen the inside of the Halls go free seem to be a bad tactical call.
Narzug's seemed to be displaying the very human(?) emotion of hope amidst hopelessness that he might just have a chance to survive the capture and get home. In extreme circumstances, I guess all living things grasp at hope, however improbable.
The switcheroo between good cop/bad cop among the Elves is interesting though. But I guess they just play the part they see fit for the moment.
3d: Narzug's hatred and disdain for Thorin seems to outweigh the vaulted Elf-Orc enmity. Why is this?
I'm thinking as a grunt of Azog/Bolg, he shares the big guys' loves and hates. So enemy of my enemy and all that, but very strange in this setting though since in the big pic view, aren't Elves the overarching enemy of all orcs? 
3e: Is Legolas' statement about Erebor something he believes or a ruse to elicit more information from Narzug?
I think it is both. With the long inaction of the Dwarves, Thranduil might actually believe the Dwarven kingdom is no more. It is also a good response to keep Narzug talking.
4a: Who is Narzug's master? And who is "the One"?
"The One" would be Sauron I think. But I'm of 2 minds about Narzug's master. The obvious candidate would be Bolg/Azog. But do orcs have dominion over other orcs? So I'm suspecting he meant the Necromancer... if he's not one of those privileged ones in the know.
The other possibility of course is that it's an open secret who the Necromancer is. If that's the case, then it would be obvious Narzug's master is Bolg/Azog. I don't know enough about orc culture but it still seems to me unlikely for orcs to have dominion over fellow orcs. Maybe I missed something here.
4b: Narzug seems to be know about the big plans. Was this usual for orc grunts? Or was Narzug a commissioned officer in the orc corps?
I guess this is also related to 4a. How much is the generic grunt privvy to? And how organised/hierarchical are orcs?
4c: Was Narzug cocky with confidence or a false sense of security when he condescends on Legolas with the "Elfing" term?
Narzug seems just generally condescending with the Elves, just looking at how he sneers at Tauriel. His almost-death at her hands didn't seem to have taught him any humility in a hurry. But then, he probably was banking on Thranduil's offer too. Legolas I must say, seem able to handle taunting better. Perhaps because of his greater age/experience? iirc, his age was set at 2,900 in LotR.
4d: Why did you think Thranduil was getting concerned with Narzug's words?
I think this harks back to Thranduil's experience in the War of the Last Alliance. "The One" is probably something bandied about quite a bit among captured orc soldiers in that War.
5a: Were you surprised at Thranduil's action? What impression did it give you when he beheaded the orc? Was his confidence and ability with the sword a surprise?
Well it was a surprising move. But Tauriel's earlier display of instant reaction to Thranduil's command was a foreshadowing of how great Elven reflexes are. Also, being a book-reader, I am not quite overcome with shock, just knowing his history. But his utility with the sword was quite the surprise because excepting that too-brief prologue scene in FotR, all we've seen of Elven ability is with the bow, and Legolas bouncing and surfing. There's been inkling of Elven proficiency with other weapons. (Xenawen notwithstanding, plus she only used it as an Aragron chinlift). But it is a pleasant surprise, and I do like that it continues to paint Thranduil as a different sort of Elf than the ones we've seen and been portrayed, including the Wise. He has an edge and he is dangerous, but he is also a breath-taking Elf.
5b: Why was Legolas surprised? Was he unhappy with the timing or the act of the beheading itself?
Legolas obviously has much to learn to about his awesome daddy yet. He did seem surprised but again, did not freak out totally because it's within norms perhaps? I feel he was more surprised by the timing than the actual beheading. His later questioning of Thranduil and insistence there's more to be learnt hints at it. Certainly there's no remorse on his part either.
5c: What did you think was going through Thranduil's mind when he drew his sword? Was it a voluntary action in the moment?
I think this goes back to Thranduil's experience in the War. He may be recalling some horrific moment or was literally brought back into it in a moment of PTSD, since Elves live the moment and never forgets. Then again, he may just be annoyed to be reminded by an insolent grunt of unpleasantness he wants to keep buried.
5d: What did you think of Thranduil's assertion that he kept his promise to Narzug?
There may be some glibness involved, but I believe Thranduil's just bringing forward the inevitable fate of Narzug. Going back to 3c on the security concerns, I think even if the Elves let Narzug go, he would not make it far. After all, the promise of freedom didn't come packaged with safe passage guarantee. Even if Narzug made it back to his pack, would Bolg still trust him? Also, would not finding him back means he might have been let go by the Elves for that express purpose?
5e: Does Legolas seem upset at the premature loss of a source of information or was he upset at something else?
I think he was more upset to have become the defacto assistant for his dad's badass stunt.
6a: What did you think of Thranduil's facility with his sword here? Was it a surprise he is such an adept at swordsmanship?
I'm probably already gushing but yes, Thranduil's a badass with his sword and it is a very pleasant fact imo to have been added to the character. It differentiates him from his people, and after all he is an Elf Lord of Sindarin descent and a powerful old Elf. Plus, he does join the party in BotFA, and no professional throne lounger can do what we know he does there.
6b: What kind of weapon do you think will be unleashed, that could cause such grave concern in Thranduil? How would he know or guess at the weapon and the magnitude of its destructive abilities?
Some war machine that Sauron unleashed in the War of the Last Alliance probably gave Thranduil such pause so much later after the fact. He is still clearly affected by the experience and remembers the destruction well.
6c: Thranduil already seem to run the realm as a militant state. Did you think security could be further tightened?
With his tightly run ship, and able captains to assist and ensure things run as expected, it should work. Thranduil doesn't seem to be speaking merely rhetorically so he probably does expect it to be so.
7a: Is it possible to have surveillance at such a high level that Thranduil literally knows everything going on within his realm?
Absolutely. Thranduil seems to be linked to the land, so the security reinforcements probably adds and enhances what he can feel.
7b: Legolas carries out the King's orders. What office would he hold in Thranduil's court/military to be entrusted the task of overseeing the King's instructions?
I think Legolas would at least hold the title of Captain of the Guard as well or its equivalent. He and Tauriel seems to be peers, and well-regarded by Thranduil for their abilities.
7c: What did you think of Tauriel's action? What do you think Legolas will do next?
I find it very irresponsible for a CotG to act along without permission. How does someone like that make the grade in the first place? Legolas will probably report to Thranduil and seek permission to go after her before he sets out. He's a good son and responsible member of staff that way.
7d: How do you think Thranduil will react when he finds out Tauriel has left without permission and has essentially gone AWOL?
He will want Legolas to bring her back safe, and then institute punishment. Nothing personal though he would be personally disappointed in her waywardness. As ruler and leader of a militant people, he would need to send a message about disobedience to the troops.
8a: Did the scene change your perception of the following characters, from the earlier scenes? Why or why not?
i) Thranduil
I like this scene for showing us the field-experienced Thranduil. He is still cold, intimidating and aloof, but the pieces of the puzzle fit.
ii) Legolas
It shows a bit of the relationship between Legolas and Thranduil, though more as king and subject than father and son, though the direct way Legolas speaks to Thranduil and in turn Thranduil's tolerance of it speaks to a closer relationship than Thranduil with Tauriel (which is as it should be anyway). I would have liked to see more Father/Son interaction in a less contentious context though. I do hope that will be remedied in the DOS EE and BotFA. It also seems ridiculous to me that they both have more time with Tauriel than with each other.
iii) Tauriel
I still struggle with this character. By running off on her own, she proves what? Her priorities are right where her heart is, as in she has compassion and to hell with the rule of law she has grown up with? It doesn't jive. I'll leave it at that.
iv) Mirkwood Elves in general
The Mirkwood Elven patrol and border security outfit are a well-oiled machinery. At a word from the King conveyed through Legolas, lock-down commences. And they noted who was not inside and immediately raised a red-flag for Legolas to follow-up.
v) Orcs
I am finding it intriguing, the hinted at culture and hierarchy of orc society. Though it seems interesting and more complex than I had thought, I'm not likely to delve further in the foreseeable future.
8b: What did you think of the respective portrayals by the actors?
As a Thranduil Thrall, of course I'm unabashed in gushing about Lee Pace's portrayal. Legolas is well, par for course  , and Tauriel was serviceable. I liked that guard at the gate who reported her AWOL to Legolas (Believe he's the same one with the dungeon keys, Elros?). Narzug with his prosthetic face and close-ups was a pleasant surprise as I was expecting CGI and not liking it much (I do not like CGI Bolg and Azog either).
8c: What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the orc close-ups, the background renderings of the Halls?
I like the atmosphere evoked by the music and sounds. Particularly Thranduil's sword and sword action. What can I say, I'm a FAN!!!  And again, the CGI details of the background has been stunning. I love the Halls of the Woodland Realm.
8d: Book readers: As you know, this is a totally non-canon scene. What do you think of this scene overall? Likes and dislikes?
I like this scene. While it is non-canon, I can see such a scene moving the story forward, and also at the same time adding to the characters in the scene, particularly Thranduil.
8e: Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?
Just more Thranduil and Legolas interactions... more Thranduil will do too.
8f: Any other comments or thoughts?
The measured use of CGI vs prosthetics for Narzug is something I can definitely live with.
Of course I could wish for more Thranduil (yes, ad nauseam, it's my duty as a Thranduil Thrall), but objectively, this scene, while too violent and judged gratuitous to some, I find well designed and executed. I like that it has realism, as much as realism is possible in fantasy, in reference to a realm long-beset and a ruler with a dark past who is keeping it all together for his people and his rule regardless.
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Bofur01
Lorien
Sep 7 2014, 10:09am
Post #3 of 57
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That the weapon Sauron means to unleash is 100% Smaug, his music starts playing as Thranduil talks about the weapon.
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Sep 7 2014, 1:51pm
Post #4 of 57
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Confusion regarding Thranduil's orders and Tauriel's actions....
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I found Thranduil's orders and Tauriel's actions somewhat unrelated. I'm in a hurry so here is my muddled explanation...
When Thranduil commands "I want the watch doubled at our borders, all roads all rivers. Nothing moves but I hear of it. No one enters this kingdom, and no one leaves it." his use of the term "border" is unclear to me.
I interpreted it to mean beyond the underground caves and including the areas of Mirkwood still under his control.
It didn't make sense to me that the elves would retreat to within the caves and leave the surrounding forest undefended.
I would think the elves would create a strategic buffer around the passes, roads and rivers leading to the caves.
When Legolas states "Close the gate! Keep it sealed by order of the King."
and the guard answers "What about Tauriel?.....She went into the forest armed with her bow and blade. She has not returned."
again I thought wouldn't there have been other elves either still on patrol that hadn't returned yet?, or that other guards would be sent to various locations outside of the gates to "double the watch"?
Otherwise, bringing everyone inside would leave the realm more vulnerable.
And my last comment is related to timing of when the king's orders were communicated to everyone and when Tauriel decided to leave.
Perhaps the extended edition will clarify if and when she knew she was disobeying an order.
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 7 2014, 2:31pm
Post #5 of 57
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Smaug's theme huh? Thanks for the info, Bofur01. I don't get why he'd be the weapon-I've skimmed through thr arguments for alliance between the Necromancer and Smaug but honestly I'm a bit meh on it, but I guess we'll know come December.
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 7 2014, 2:40pm
Post #6 of 57
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I agree the timings on orders, their scope and conveyance need clarifications but
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imo Tauriel is clearly still AWOL regardless. Put it this way: how often is security breached in the Realm? Working folks are no strangers with the coffee break. But there is a difference between leaving your desk for 15mins to get a coffee takeout and going for a break and then disappearing for the rest of the day without letting anyone know. Seems to me apart from being seen going out, no one knew where Tauriel waa going nor her intention to really go after Dwarves, which is no coffee break errand. Surely a wilful breach of work ethic and protocol. Well, unless we get to November and see Thranduil finding a time off chit on his desk... though if it requires approval, she's still AWOL. *shrug*
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Sep 7 2014, 2:42pm)
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 7 2014, 6:33pm
Post #7 of 57
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1a: What did you think of the way the scene segues from the orcs to the throne-atrium of Thranduil, and then to the shot of Narzug being held at knife-point by Legolas, with Thranduil in the background? Does it surprise you to see the elegant Elvenking leading an orc interrogation?
It is kind of surprising to see Thranduil leading the interrogation, but I suppose that orcs haven’t been near the Woodland Realm for some time, and after the encounter with the dwarves, he decides he needs to get a handle on what’s going on.
1b: What did you think of Thranduil's lead-in monologue?
When you listen to the words, it actually paints a pretty bleak picture of Thranduil’s state of mind and his thoughts on the state of the world, especially “in time, all foul things come forth”. I guess when you’ve lived as long as he has, you’ve seen a lot of evil, but still.
1c: Why do you think this interrogation is being held in the open, and like Thorin's audience, in the throne-atrium?
This appears to be where Thranduil conducts all of his public business, probably because it’s intimidating to whomever he’s meeting with.
1d: Why are there only 2 guards on the lower steps of the throne-atrium this time compared to Thorin's audience where there were at least 4 more along the raised platform on either side of the floor?
I guess with the location and placement of the orc, more guards weren’t needed as he couldn’t get far without running into an elf, or going over the side. Plus Legolas and Tauriel were armed and at the ready.
1e: What is your impression of the details of the surroundings this time round?
The lighting is darker this time around.
2a: Does it seem like Morgul blades are easy to come by 60 years earlier than the events of LotR?
I think it’s more of an acknowledgement that these orcs are in league with Sauron, and have extra power to harm than ordinary orcs.
2b: Why would Tauriel display such concern for the wounded Kili? Would she be so riled up if it was another Dwarf who was shot?
She had a personal conversation with him, and made a connection, so he’s not just some nameless prisoner. I’m guessing she might not have been as concerned if it had been one of the other dwarves.
2c: Thranduil has been observing the proceedings quietly. What do you think he's thinking about Tauriel's reaction?
This was interesting as he’s focused on getting some answers out of the orc, but sees that she’s getting riled up, maybe more so than normal due to the unusual circumstances. Or maybe he knows that she has a temper, and he needs to keep her in check.
2d: What is your impression of Tauriel essentially stopping mid-stroke at just a word from Thranduil?
Well, he’s her king, she obeys his commands (up to that point at least)
2e: What do you think Narzug is thinking at this point?
If you can get your enemies fighting amongst themselves, that’s usually a good sign, although he’s probably trying to figure out who is the biggest threat. However, a thought just occurred to me: maybe he actually saw Tauriel’s reaction during the fight at the river and knew that she had a particular interest in Kili – he seems to make it a point to use that information to taunt her.
3a: What is Tauriel thinking, hearing the portentous words from her King about Kili's fate?
Well, she does care, both about Kili specifically and in general about the fact that orcs are chasing after and trying to kill their prisoners, which seems to imply a bigger issue about the state of the world around them.
3b: What does the look between Tauriel and Legolas mean?
I think Legolas was in agreement with his father and was basically telling her to calm down.
3c: What did you think of Thranduil's offer of freedom? Was Narzug naive to think he would actually be set free?
It did seem like Narzug believed Thranduil, which seems a little odd for someone in his position, after all, an orc would probably never do the same if the situation were reversed.
3d: Narzug's hatred and disdain for Thorin seems to outweigh the vaulted Elf-Orc enmity. Why would this be so?
There’s also the fact that he was just told he’d be set free, so maybe that helped loosen his tongue. And maybe showing off a little on the assumption that their mission will succeed.
3e: Is Legolas' statement about Erebor something he believes or a ruse to elicit more information from Narzug?
I think he believes it, after all, Smaug has been in place for years, so there’s no reason for him to think the dwarves will ever get Erebor back.
4a: Who is Narzug's master? And who is "the One"?
Azog is his master, the Necromancer is the One.
4b: Narzug seems to be know about the big plans. Was this usual for orc grunts? Or was Narzug a commissioned officer in the orc corps?
Well, since he’s actually out on the mission hunting the dwarves, with a smaller party of orcs, he could have picked up on this knowledge as part of that small elite group.
4c: Was Narzug cocky with confidence or a false sense of security when he condescends on Legolas with the "Elfing" term?
Both, I’d say. And just full of orc bravado.
4d: Why did you think Thranduil was getting concerned with Narzug's words?
As soon as he said “The One”, Thranduil knew who he was talking about and realized this situation was a lot bigger than he had thought, and probably had a pretty good idea what was coming.
5a: Were you surprised at Thranduil's action? What impression did it give you when he beheaded the orc? Was his confidence and ability with the sword a surprise?
Yes, surprised that he would stop the interrogation and impressed with his ability to cut of the orc’s head without chopping of Legolas’ arm as well!
5b: Why was Legolas surprised? Was he unhappy with the timing or the act of the beheading itself?
They were finally getting the orc talking, so he probably thought they would keep it going to get all available information they could.
5c: What did you think was going through Thranduil's mind when he drew his sword? Was it a voluntary action in the moment?
A bit of a hair trigger reaction brought on by the mention of the One. He didn’t want to hear any more.
5d: What did you think of Thranduil's assertion that he kept his promise to Narzug?
A bit of rationalization, although I don’t think he ever intended to let the orc go free.
5e: Does Legolas seem upset at the premature loss of a source of information or was he upset at something else?
I think he was expecting it to go on for hours, and didn’t immediately pick up on the meaning behind the orc’s words.
6a: What did you think of Thranduil's facility with his sword here? Was it a surprise he is such an adept at swordsmanship?
I didn’t really notice it, although he’s been around long enough to be pretty skilled.
6b: What kind of weapon do you think will be unleashed, that could cause such grave concern in Thranduil? How would he know or guess at the weapon and the magnitude of its destructive abilities?
The clue would be the comment about the “flames” of war, and also the presence of the dwarves just prior to all of this, with Thorin reminding him of what happened with Smaug.
6c: Thranduil already seem to run the realm as a militant state. Did you think security could be further tightened?
I imagine the elves could come and go as they needed to, at least during the day, so yes, it’s even tighter now if no one can come in or out.
7a: Is it possible to have surveillance at such a high level that Thranduil literally knows everything going on within his realm?
It looks like he already has watches in place around the realm, and is now ordering them to be doubled, so I’d say between that and sealing the gates, he’ll know pretty much everything.
7b: Legolas carries out the King's orders. What office would he hold in Thranduil's court/military to be entrusted the task of overseeing the King's instructions?
I’m not sure if he holds an actual office other than the King’s son, which carries weight enough.
7c: What did you think of Tauriel's action? What do you think Legolas will do next?
I was mostly just thinking she left to clear her head, I would assume she would take weapons with her anytime she left the kingdom.
7d: How do you think Thranduil will react when he finds out Tauriel has left without permission and has essentially gone AWOL?
I imagine he’ll be pretty upset.
General questions
8a: Did the scene change your perception of the following characters, from the earlier scenes? Why or why not? Not really, maybe just added a little more to the picture
i) Thranduil: he seems even more imperious, and focused on the evil of the outside world
ii) Legolas
iii) Tauriel: got a little taste of her temper
iv) Mirkwood Elves in general
v) Orcs: ugh
8b: What did you think of the respective portrayals by the actors?
I thought they all did a great job
8c: What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the orc close-ups, the background renderings of the Halls?
The music was very ominous. The Halls still looked very impressive.
8d: Book readers: As you know, this is a totally non-canon scene. What do you think of this scene overall? Likes and dislikes?
I didn’t really think about the non-canon aspect, it seemed as good a way as any to show Thranduil’s further characterization and intentions as he gets more information about what is happening in the outside world. And more than a hint of the connection between Sauron and Smaug.
8e: Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?
No, I don’t think so.
8f: Any other comments or thoughts?
The design and characterization of the orc was really creepy, which is one reason I don’t like watching this scene!
Thorin’s hair: I imagine Thranduil is pretty mad that not only did the dwarves get away, but that Thorin looked so majestic doing it (because of course, since he knows about everything that’s happening in his kingdom, he would have received a full report on how magnificent Thorin’s hair looked during the escape).
Thanks Lurker!
“Will you follow me, one last time?”
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Sep 7 2014, 10:50pm
Post #8 of 57
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For the record, I'm one of those who felt Tauriel's story should not have taken her to Lake-town, so I think the justification for getting her there (as well as Thorin forcing Kili to stay there) felt contrived.
I also think that although she is a young elf, she is a 600 year old elf nonetheless, which means that she should not behave like she is in her 20's or 30's.
(And although older elves, such as Fingolfin, have been prone to impulsive acts, those were generally actions taken under great sorrow or passion).
imo Tauriel is clearly still AWOL regardless. .... Surely a wilful breach of work ethic and protocol. Well, unless we get to November and see Thranduil finding a time off chit on his desk... though if it requires approval, she's still AWOL. *shrug*
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 10:32am
Post #10 of 57
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Thank you for posting this, Lurker
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I think Thranduil looks great in this scene – as in every scene he appears in.
I would, however, have preferred to see a raccoon rather than Legolas (and I don't really see the necessity for the scene at all).
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VValar
Gondor
Sep 8 2014, 12:40pm
Post #11 of 57
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I have been looking forward to this CHOW for the long two days since it's notice  For the simple reason of it being one of my fav scene's from DOS, having a lot of Elven goodness in it and getting a little inside peek at how things are run inside the Elvenking's Halls.
1a: What did you think of the way the scene segues from the orcs to the throne-atrium of Thranduil, and then to the shot of Narzug being held at knife-point by Legolas, with Thranduil in the background? Does it surprise you to see the elegant Elvenking leading an orc interrogation?
I like the transition and the contrast it shows between the Orcs and Elves. I wasn't really surprised seeing Thranduil leading the interrogation. Seeing as this Orc is being captivated by Legolas/Tauriel for the sole purpose of extracting information (or else he would have been shot on sight) he must possess some sort of interesting information Thranduil would like to know. And Thranduil doesn't strike me as the Elf who let's his important errands run by anyone else except himself. I think he likes to be on top of things.
1b: What did you think of Thranduil's lead-in monologue?
A bit gloomy and gave me a sense of foreboding. I think this monologue might be a accurate representation of the way Thranduil sees the world. But to me it sounded more as a solid intro for an interrogation, trying to provoke a reaction from the Orc. Especially his last sentence "In time all foul things come forth" clearly meant for the Orc as it being a foul thing who has come forth but who has been taken captive and will have accomplished nothing. Therefor the evil will not prevail (Thranduil looks pretty confident).
1c: Why do you think this interrogation is being held in the open, and like Thorin's audience, in the throne-atrium?
If I had a throne-atrium like that I would conduct all my formal business in it as well. Becasue it looks total badass and intimidates the hell out of someone.
1d: Why are there only 2 guards on the lower steps of the throne-atrium this time compared to Thorin's audience where there were at least 4 more along the raised platform on either side of the floor?
To intimidate Thorin I guess. I don't think Thranduil would need any of his guards for his own safety against one unarmed Dwarf. Same goes for one unarmed Orc, plus he has got Legolas and Tauriel standing next to him as well. Maybe it's only formal having two guards on the floor (and they do come in handy when the Orc mess needs to be cleaned up).
1e: What is your impression of the details of the surroundings this time round?
Absolutely loved it, the open space, the lights hanging from the ceiling, the many stairs and bridges and tree-like columns. The way the lightening hits the underground rivers, the waterfalls and the moss onto the rocks. The amount of details are rediculously wonderful. It looks like an actual place the Elves live in. Great job with using the CGI in creating the environment.
Big clicky: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/...ation_-_Mirkwood.jpg
2a: Does it seem like Morgul blades are easy to come by 60 years earlier than the events of LotR?
It would seem that way. The big question would be: how come there are so few of them 60 years later?
2b: Why would Tauriel display such concern for the wounded Kili? Would she be so riled up if it was another Dwarf who was shot?
I don't think she would be so riled up if another Dwarf had been shot. I think she already starts to care for Kili at this point (though not sure what those feelings might be) since they had a conversation prior to the escape.
2c: Thranduil has been observing the proceedings quietly. What do you think he's thinking about Tauriel's reaction?
I don't think anything goes by him at this point, so he probably saw Tauriel's reaction coming from a long run. That's why he could react so quickly by ordering Tauriel to stop in her actions.
2d: What is your impression of Tauriel essentially stopping mid-stroke at just a word from Thranduil?
Fast thinking of Thranduil, who wants to keep the prisoner alive long enough to extract info. Unprofessional of Tauriel to lose her cool in front of her King and the prisoner. She should know better and probably does, since she does instantly stop in her tracks at the command and walks away, albeit rather reluctantly.
2e: What do you think Narzug is thinking at this point?
He reacts very angry and provocative. If Tauriel had any less respect for her King or any less selfcontrol at that point, she would have dealt him the final blow right there. He doesn't strike me as being scared, not of her at least.
3a: What is Tauriel thinking, hearing the portentous words from her King about Kili's fate?
Won't come as a surprise I think. Seeing as he isn't overly fond of Dwarves in general, one anonymous dead Dwarf doesn't concern him. But I do think this is the moment where Tauriel decides to go after the Dwarves. She knows her King won't do anything to help them, why would he? They just escaped his prison and caused him lots of trouble at the river with a couple of dead Elven soldiers to boot. So she decides to take matters into her own hands.
3b: What does the look between Tauriel and Legolas mean?
Listen to my Daddy.
3c: What did you think of Thranduil's offer of freedom? Was Narzug naive to think he would actually be set free?
Maybe he thought Thranduil's words to be true for a second. Although he doesn't appear to be a very unintelligent Orc, so he probably knows how the story is going to play out. Thranduil might have offered him his (false sense of) freedom to loosen up his tongue a bit.
3d: Narzug's hatred and disdain for Thorin seems to outweigh the vaulted Elf-Orc enmity. Why would this be so?
Hmm remember I just said Narzug doesn't strike me as the most unintelligent Orc? Well maybe this wasn't his smartest move, to share everything he knows (and therefor all of his Master's knowledge) about the Dwarves with his sworn enemies. Maybe he was still under the impression he woud be set free if he told everything he knows.
3e: Is Legolas' statement about Erebor something he believes or a ruse to elicit more information from Narzug?
Both I think. Legolas doens't have any reason to believe otherwise, I mean why would he? It's not like the Dwarves can reclaim their homeland while the dragon is still very comfortable inside the mountain. And I don't think he would expect the Dwarves to be very succesfull in their quest. It's not like they had a well thought out plan to conquer the mountain and kill Smaug, did they?
4a: Who is Narzug's master? And who is "the One"?
Azog/Bolg? The One is Sauron. Thranduil knows this as well, although Legolas isn't appearing to pick up this piece of information. Thranduil has had dealings with Sauron in the past (not very pleasant ones) so I think he is more receptive to any associations concerning Sauron.
4b: Narzug seems to be know about the big plans. Was this usual for orc grunts? Or was Narzug a commissioned officer in the orc corps?
It doesn't appear he knows all the details of this grand plan, but I would assume every Orc knows about it in one way or another. Wouldn't you know it if your long lost Master was returning?
4c: Was Narzug cocky with confidence or a false sense of security when he condescends on Legolas with the "Elfing" term?
Both, Narzug comes across as a very unpleasant character. Full of himself, even though he just has been captured. Wether he will be released or not, he still is not afraid to provoke or insult anyone at will. Though I must admit, hearing an Orc calling Legolas 'Elfling' was kind of cute *snigger*
4d: Why did you think Thranduil was getting concerned with Narzug's words?
Hearing the name of Sauron made him very anxious I guess. Thranduil knew Sauron had not been defeated and would rise again. But hearing it from this Orc made realisation kick in. The enemy is moving and it won't be long before Sauron would as well. Not a very pleasant thought for Tranduil, as he has lost so much at the hands of this enemy already. I think he fears what is to come. Fear for his people, for his Kingdom and for his son. And the not-so-friendly-fire-breathing-neighbour-under-the-mountain next door doesn't help either. Maybe the enemy could trick Smaug into joining their cause, leaving Mirkwood within very close proximity when all hell breaks loose.
5a: Were you surprised at Thranduil's action? What impression did it give you when he beheaded the orc? Was his confidence and ability with the sword a surprise?
Definately didn't see that coming lol. I had to watch it a couple of times before I could figure out how exactly Thranduil beheaded the Orc with his back facing the victim. Awesome and unparalelled fighting skills *squee* And yep it was a surprise he was so good with his sword. I don't think we have seen any Elf lord (except for Legolas) fight just yet. I imagine them being all the more dangerous from what we have seen yet, seeing as they are so much more experienced. Having seen much more and fought many great battles (and obviously survived those). Can I express one more time how much anticipation has build up to see Thranduil in full combat with his TWIN swords. Imagine him being so confident with just one sword, just how good will he be with two?
5b: Why was Legolas surprised? Was he unhappy with the timing or the act of the beheading itself?
Don't think he was all too unhappy with killing the Orc, although the timing might have set him off. He sure didn't expect that from his Dad either. And he probably was questioning his father for not keeping his promise. Guess his dad doesn't break his promises easily seeing Legolas was still under the impression Thranduil would set the Orc free. But he doesn't seem to linger on it for he immediately asks his father what the Orc meant, wanting to know what his father obvious knows and forgetting the Orc corps instantly.
5c: What did you think was going through Thranduil's mind when he drew his sword? Was it a voluntary action in the moment?
It came across as a sort of thing that happens in the heat of the moment. Although Thranduil strikes me as an Elf who considers his actions throughly. So it could have been that he didn't want Legolas to hear what the Orc had to tell. Or he just didn't want to listen to the Orc any longer for spitting out his venom in his sacred Halls. Everything about an Orc is poisonous to and Elf, including the words that come out of his mouth.
5d: What did you think of Thranduil's assertion that he kept his promise to Narzug?
Yeah that's one way to put it lol.
5e: Does Legolas seem upset at the premature loss of a source of information or was he upset at something else?
Primarily the loss of a source of information I would think.
6a: What did you think of Thranduil's facility with his sword here? Was it a surprise he is such an adept at swordsmanship?
Umm, yeah! He didn't even have to look down to his sheath. Have I already told you how much I look forward to seeing him fighting??
Just cause I like it so much
6b: What kind of weapon do you think will be unleashed, that could cause such grave concern in Thranduil? How would he know or guess at the weapon and the magnitude of its destructive abilities?
Might be talking about Smaug? Seeing as that dragon pretty much summons up death and destruction.
6c: Thranduil already seem to run the realm as a militant state. Did you think security could be further tightened?
Sure, it would be as if they were in a state of immergency or under attack. Security is all they have to keep them safe and I think Thranduil would do anything in his power to keep his people from harm. A good militant ruler has several tactics up on his sleeve.
7a: Is it possible to have surveillance at such a high level that Thranduil literally knows everything going on within his realm?
The eyes and ears of Elves see and hear much. I think Thranduil would be recieving pretty detailed rapports from his scouts/warriors, especially since he has doubled the security and ordered no one entering or leaving his Kingdom without his permission. Beside that I think he would possess some sort of (supernatural) ability as would the High Elves of old to protect his realm. He has been reasonable succesfull in doing so over the last thousands of years, without the power of a ring. Therefore I assumed he must have some sort of power, beside being a smart tactic, to help him defend his realm.
7b: Legolas carries out the King's orders. What office would he hold in Thranduil's court/military to be entrusted the task of overseeing the King's instructions?
Prince, I would think that to be enough to hold the highest of rank next to his father. After all he would rule in is father's stead if the worst should come to pass. It would seem natural to hold the highest trust from his father and best skills (fighting as well as managing) besides his King.
7c: What did you think of Tauriel's action? What do you think Legolas will do next?
Very rash and unwise. She didn't directly ignore an order from her King just yet at that time, since she probably left before Thranduil ordered the Kingdom to be sealed. But I would assume a captain of the Guard not running around and chasing some Dwarves without her King's (or Prince's) knowing.
7d: How do you think Thranduil will react when he finds out Tauriel has left without permission and has essentially gone AWOL?
I think he would not be in such a good mood and would be contemplating her reasons for leaving. But even more for punishing her accordingly.
General questions
8a: Did the scene change your perception of the following characters, from the earlier scenes? Why or why not?
i) Thranduil
He is the ultimate King, no question about it
ii) Legolas
Liked the fact we see Legolas giving orders instead of following them (LotR)
iii) Tauriel
Complicated, I don't agree on her decisions and don't understand why a respected member of the guard would handle so rashly against her King's orders
iv) Mirkwood Elves in general
They're balancing their lives between wanting peace but having to create it themselves by having to fight Evil every single day.
v) Orcs
They are more well-spoken than I thought, at least Narzug was.
8b: What did you think of the respective portrayals by the actors?
Loved all of them!
8c: What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the orc close-ups, the background renderings of the Halls?
Liked Narzug not being CGI, looks so much more real. Don't like CGI Bolg/Azog either so this was a pleasant surprise. CGI looked great in the background. Great music, great acting. Love this scene for all those reasons.
8d: Book readers: As you know, this is a totally non-canon scene. What do you think of this scene overall? Likes and dislikes?
I must make a confession. I have actually never read the Hobbit but I imagine I wouldn't have mind this scene at all if I had.
8e: Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?
I think this scene is pretty complete already. But I do look forward to more Thranduil on screen (can't help it) and a little more actual affectionate father/son moment would be nice too (instead of King - Prince/captain)
8f: Any other comments or thoughts?
Nope
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 12:57pm
Post #12 of 57
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Thanks for answering all the questions, Kim
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You're a trooper!
1b: What did you think of Thranduil's lead-in monologue?
When you listen to the words, it actually paints a pretty bleak picture of Thranduil’s state of mind and his thoughts on the state of the world, especially “in time, all foul things come forth”. I guess when you’ve lived as long as he has, you’ve seen a lot of evil, but still. Yeah. At least he has the end of TA to look forward to... to be free of the shadow that's haunted him since the War of the Last Alliance.
2a: Does it seem like Morgul blades are easy to come by 60 years earlier than the events of LotR?
I think it’s more of an acknowledgement that these orcs are in league with Sauron, and have extra power to harm than ordinary orcs. Hmm... I didn't consider that, but still, easily available Morgul blades? Oh well.
6b: What kind of weapon do you think will be unleashed, that could cause such grave concern in Thranduil? How would he know or guess at the weapon and the magnitude of its destructive abilities?
The clue would be the comment about the “flames” of war, and also the presence of the dwarves just prior to all of this, with Thorin reminding him of what happened with Smaug. Seems like Smaug is the popular vote here. I agree it's obvious, but I'm hoping that's not the route PJ goes, just cos. Well, December!
8d: Book readers: As you know, this is a totally non-canon scene. What do you think of this scene overall? Likes and dislikes?
I didn’t really think about the non-canon aspect, it seemed as good a way as any to show Thranduil’s further characterization and intentions as he gets more information about what is happening in the outside world. And more than a hint of the connection between Sauron and Smaug. Yeah, I guess it's obvious but I do like anything that gives us more Thranduil
Thorin’s hair: I imagine Thranduil is pretty mad that not only did the dwarves get away, but that Thorin looked so majestic doing it (because of course, since he knows about everything that’s happening in his kingdom, he would have received a full report on how magnificent Thorin’s hair looked during the escape).  
You can have all the scruffy to yourself. Provided it hasn't tangled in some branches and ripped Thorin's glory off
Thanks Lurker!
Welcome, and thanks for your thorough answers
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 1:00pm
Post #13 of 57
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(And although older elves, such as Fingolfin, have been prone to impulsive acts, those were generally actions taken under great sorrow or passion). This. As if I'm not already on track to earn more het around here, but well, it seems to me the movie-makers are trying their darnest to lard up Tauriel's cred, what with her awesomer lines and character arc than Legolas and that healing hocus-pocus.
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 1:03pm
Post #14 of 57
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Heh... thanks for reading my $0.02
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LOL, he should be used to his Daddy's badassness by now. 
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 1:07pm
Post #15 of 57
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I think Thranduil looks great in this scene – as in every scene he appears in. Always happy to hear appreciation for Thranduil.
I would, however, have preferred to see a raccoon rather than Legolas (and I don't really see the necessity for the scene at all). I had to laugh out loud here. I can guess but if you don't mind, is it just movie Legolas or do you not like him altogether? (I'd settle for that if we can reduce Tauriel's scenes too)
And I presume you feel the entire scene is duperfluous. I respect that, though (I guess obviously for me) I'll take anything with Thranduil.
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Sep 8 2014, 1:21pm)
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Sep 8 2014, 1:37pm
Post #16 of 57
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That bottom gif makes him almost look like Lucius Malfoy
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"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 1:41pm
Post #17 of 57
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Great answers all *applause*
1b: What did you think of Thranduil's lead-in monologue?
A bit gloomy and gave me a sense of foreboding. I think this monologue might be a accurate representation of the way Thranduil sees the world. But to me it sounded more as a solid intro for an interrogation, trying to provoke a reaction from the Orc. Especially his last sentence "In time all foul things come forth" clearly meant for the Orc as it being a foul thing who has come forth but who has been taken captive and will have accomplished nothing. Therefor the evil will not prevail (Thranduil looks pretty confident). Nice observation. Interrogation psychology eh? Thranduil is great at everything he puts his mind to
1c: Why do you think this interrogation is being held in the open, and like Thorin's audience, in the throne-atrium?
If I had a throne-atrium like that I would conduct all my formal business in it as well. Becasue it looks total badass and intimidates the hell out of someone. Can't argue with that.
2a: Does it seem like Morgul blades are easy to come by 60 years earlier than the events of LotR?
It would seem that way. The big question would be: how come there are so few of them 60 years later? I guess the supply got depleted in the WC's action on Dol Guldur, and in BotFA.
2e: What do you think Narzug is thinking at this point?
He reacts very angry and provocative. If Tauriel had any less respect for her King or any less selfcontrol at that point, she would have dealt him the final blow right there. He doesn't strike me as being scared, not of her at least. His behaviour is interesting isn't it? He's still so full of it even in the very midst of mortal enemies.
3a: What is Tauriel thinking, hearing the portentous words from her King about Kili's fate?
Won't come as a surprise I think. Seeing as he isn't overly fond of Dwarves in general, one anonymous dead Dwarf doesn't concern him. But I do think this is the moment where Tauriel decides to go after the Dwarves. She knows her King won't do anything to help them, why would he? They just escaped his prison and caused him lots of trouble at the river with a couple of dead Elven soldiers to boot. So she decides to take matters into her own hands. Yeah, I think that's what she did.
3e: Is Legolas' statement about Erebor something he believes or a ruse to elicit more information from Narzug?
Both I think. Legolas doens't have any reason to believe otherwise, I mean why would he? It's not like the Dwarves can reclaim their homeland while the dragon is still very comfortable inside the mountain. And I don't think he would expect the Dwarves to be very succesfull in their quest. It's not like they had a well thought out plan to conquer the mountain and kill Smaug, did they? Nope, feckless to the end of their beards' split-ends Dwarves.
4d: Why did you think Thranduil was getting concerned with Narzug's words? Hearing the name of Sauron made him very anxious I guess. Thranduil knew Sauron had not been defeated and would rise again. But hearing it from this Orc made realisation kick in. The enemy is moving and it won't be long before Sauron would as well. Not a very pleasant thought for Tranduil, as he has lost so much at the hands of this enemy already. I think he fears what is to come. Fear for his people, for his Kingdom and for his son. And the not-so-friendly-fire-breathing-neighbour-under-the-mountain next door doesn't help either. Maybe the enemy could trick Smaug into joining their cause, leaving Mirkwood within very close proximity when all hell breaks loose. Nicely put. And tricking Smaug is a new take on the Smaug in cahoots with the Necromancer angle that's been bandied about.
5a: Were you surprised at Thranduil's action? What impression did it give you when he beheaded the orc? Was his confidence and ability with the sword a surprise?
Definately didn't see that coming lol. I had to watch it a couple of times before I could figure out how exactly Thranduil beheaded the Orc with his back facing the victim. Awesome and unparalelled fighting skills *squee* And yep it was a surprise he was so good with his sword. I don't think we have seen any Elf lord (except for Legolas) fight just yet. I imagine them being all the more dangerous from what we have seen yet, seeing as they are so much more experienced. Having seen much more and fought many great battles (and obviously survived those). Can I express one more time how much anticipation has build up to see Thranduil in full combat with his TWIN swords. Imagine him being so confident with just one sword, just how good will he be with two? Yeah! I love how the effect was achieved, clever use of camera angles and editing vs CGI. Gives it believability and added sense of realism and plausibility. Likes V much!
and just cos!
5b: Why was Legolas surprised? Was he unhappy with the timing or the act of the beheading itself?
Don't think he was all too unhappy with killing the Orc, although the timing might have set him off. He sure didn't expect that from his Dad either. And he probably was questioning his father for not keeping his promise. Guess his dad doesn't break his promises easily seeing Legolas was still under the impression Thranduil would set the Orc free. But he doesn't seem to linger on it for he immediately asks his father what the Orc meant, wanting to know what his father obvious knows and forgetting the Orc corps instantly. Good point there.
8a: Did the scene change your perception of the following characters, from the earlier scenes? Why or why not?
i) Thranduil
He is the ultimate King, no question about it
ii) Legolas
Liked the fact we see Legolas giving orders instead of following them (LotR)
iii) Tauriel
Complicated, I don't agree on her decisions and don't understand why a respected member of the guard would handle so rashly against her King's orders
iv) Mirkwood Elves in general
They're balancing their lives between wanting peace but having to create it themselves by having to fight Evil every single day.
v) Orcs
They are more well-spoken than I thought, at least Narzug was. Nice observations! Especially iv and v.
8c: What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the orc close-ups, the background renderings of the Halls?
Liked Narzug not being CGI, looks so much more real. Don't like CGI Bolg/Azog either so this was a pleasant surprise. CGI looked great in the background. Great music, great acting. Love this scene for all those reasons. Narzug and the way they shot Thranduil's beheading of him really shows CGI isn't the answer to everything and PJ and crew know it. I jsut wish they'd find ways of using it more judiciously overall too.
8d: Book readers: As you know, this is a totally non-canon scene. What do you think of this scene overall? Likes and dislikes?
I must make a confession. I have actually never read the Hobbit but I imagine I wouldn't have mind this scene at all if I had. I'd imagine so
8e: Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?
I think this scene is pretty complete already. But I do look forward to more Thranduil on screen (can't help it) and a little more actual affectionate father/son moment would be nice too (instead of King - Prince/captain) Agreed whoeheartedly. MORE Thranduil!
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 1:42pm
Post #18 of 57
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Ain't nobody the magnificent Elvenking resembles but his dad. Only others may look like him, that is they can TRY, misguided worthless copycats the lot of them
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Sep 8 2014, 1:45pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 2:20pm
Post #19 of 57
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Always happy to hear appreciation for Thranduil. I would, however, have preferred to see a raccoon rather than Legolas (and I don't really see the necessity for the scene at all). I had to laugh out loud here. I can guess but if you don't mind, is it just movie Legolas or do you not like him altogether? (I'd settle for that if we can reduce Tauriel's scenes too ) And I presume you feel the entire scene is superfluous. I respect that, though (I guess obviously for me) I'll take anything with Thranduil. It's the Legolas in DoS that I find absurd in so many ways (he was tolerable in LotR because he at least looked OK, though the surfing scenes, etc., were horrible to behold, at least for me). Yes, I do feel the entire scene is superfluous, despite His Most Noble Majesty appearing so great in it.
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 2:28pm
Post #20 of 57
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It's the Legolas in DoS that I find absurd in so many ways (he was tolerable in LotR because he at least looked OK, though the surfing scenes, etc., were horrible to behold, at least for me). Have to agree... I suspect it's at least partly the effect of having the other addition myself.
Yes, I do feel the entire scene is superfluous, despite His Most Noble Majesty appearing so great in it.
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Sep 8 2014, 3:10pm
Post #21 of 57
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Yes, Tauriel appears to be AWOL, although it's not clear that she is so until Legolas tells her his father is angry with her (Thranduil did tell her to go, after all, and until we hear from Legolas we don't know at what point she left--before or after the orders came down from on high).
Also, I think the reason we have Tauriel acting as she does (albeit in a rather impulsive manner) is because she is doing what she knows to be right (fighting evil instead of doing nothing about it), even in defiance of a respected leader. Sound familiar? I think her actions are meant to be a parallel to Bilbo's later actions with the Arkenstone, in defiance of Thorin. And doing what is right against the odds or despite being expected to do otherwise is a major theme of LOTR too, and no doubt PJ and Co. have this in mind.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Noria
Gondor
Sep 8 2014, 3:17pm
Post #22 of 57
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Lurker, thanks for pulling this excellent presentation together so quickly.
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1a: What did you think of the way the scene segues from the orcs to the throne-atrium of Thranduil, and then to the shot of Narzug being held at knife-point by Legolas, with Thranduil in the background?
--For me it’s fine, just a segue from the ugly Orcs to the beautiful and elegant Elves.
Does it surprise you to see the elegant Elvenking leading an orc interrogation?
--No, because I suspect that Thranduil is something of a control freak and would want to hear firsthand what the Orc had to say, and as we see a little later, control the spread of that information.
1b: What did you think of Thranduil's lead-in monologue?
--It lays out Thranduil’s thought processes and world view and suggests to me that he is damaged and paranoid. The Orc must have thought he was loony!
1c: Why do you think this interrogation is being held in the open, and like Thorin's audience, in the throne-atrium?
--Are there any closed spaces in this palace? Seriously, the only interiors we have really seen are the throne room, Thranduil’s private quarters (which no Orc will ever sully, I presume), and the dungeons, which are too small and cramped. The throne room is for business and display, both of which are going on with the Orc. Perhaps the film makers didn't want to make another set when they already had a great one in the throne room.
1d: Why are there only 2 guards on the lower steps of the throne-atrium this time compared to Thorin's audience where there were at least 4 more along the raised platform on either side of the floor?
--Maybe it had something to do with a scene we didn't see in which all the Dwarves were brought before Thranduil. Or maybe a single Dwarf is more dangerous than an Orc. Or maybe Thranduil wanted to minimize the number of onlookers. This time it’s two guards plus Legolas, Thranduil himself and at first Tauriel, all armed and formidable.
1e: What is your impression of the details of the surroundings this time round?
--Much the same as last time – the place is beautiful, ethereal, Elf-like.
2a: Does it seem like Morgul blades are easy to come by 60 years earlier than the events of LotR?
--I have no idea, but Azog and Bolg are probably high ranking Orcs and if anyone was to have one, surely it would be them. Anyway, Kili is shot with a Morgul shaft and that could mean anything.
2b: Why would Tauriel display such concern for the wounded Kili?
Would she be so riled up if it was another Dwarf who was shot?
--It seems that Tauriel and Kili forged some kind of connection in the Feast of Starlight scene so she sees him as a person now rather than an anonymous prisoner and may have some friendly feelings towards him. She would probably not like to hear of anyone dying that way, but this victim she knows and presumably cares about.
2c: Thranduil has been observing the proceedings quietly. What do you think he's thinking about Tauriel's reaction?
--I doubt he’s paying any attention to the Captain of the Guard; he’s most likely thinking about the prisoner.
2d: What is your impression of Tauriel essentially stopping mid-stroke at just a word from Thranduil?
--She’s well trained and very adept, and obedient to her king’s command.
2e: What do you think Narzug is thinking at this point?
--Oh, crap.
3a: What is Tauriel thinking, hearing the portentous words from her King about Kili's fate?
-- I suspect she is thinking “What a jerk!”. This might have been the last straw, the last stage of her disillusionment with Thranduil and his attitudes and policies.
3b: What does the look between Tauriel and Legolas mean?
--I think it means something like “What should I do?” and “Just go, you know what he’s like.”
3c: What did you think of Thranduil's offer of freedom? Was Narzug naive to think he would actually be set free?
--Possibly Narzug believed Thranduil because one would not expect an Elf to go back on his word. But Narzug was also an Orc and probably wouldn't take anybody’s word for anything. Maybe he had given himself up for dead already and just wanted to needle and threaten the Elves before he died.
3d: Narzug's hatred and disdain for Thorin seems to outweigh the vaulted Elf-Orc enmity. Why would this be so?
--Maybe he is tired of chasing that darned Dwarf who keeps getting away. Otherwise, whatever reason Azog has for vowing to exterminate the line of Durin may motivate his minions as well.
3e: Is Legolas' statement about Erebor something he believes or a ruse to elicit more information from Narzug?
--It seems to me that Legolas believes what he says but he is also baiting the Orc to get a response.
4a: Who is Narzug's master? And who is "the One"?
--I assume that Azog is his master and surely “The One” is Sauron.
4b: Narzug seems to be know about the big plans. Was this usual for orc grunts? Or was Narzug a commissioned officer in the orc corps?
--Who knows what Narzug’s rank is but maybe the Orc troops were being rallied with talk of their resurgence and the big, bad weapon. Maybe Azog shares info.
4c: Was Narzug cocky with confidence or a false sense of security when he condescends on Legolas with the "Elfing" term?
--Cocky with confidence that his side would ultimately be the winners in this struggle. It seems that defiance is part of their character.
4d: Why did you think Thranduil was getting concerned with Narzug's words?
--I think that Thranduil doesn't want to hear what Narzug says next or have the information Narzug imparts getting around to all his subjects, creating concern and fear. As I said, Thranduil seems to be something of a control freak.
5a: Were you surprised at Thranduil's action? What impression did it give you when he beheaded the orc? Was his confidence and ability with the sword a surprise?
--Yes I was surprised, because I would have expected an Elf to keep his word. IMO a book Elf would not have done this, just like book Aragorn would never have beheaded the Mouth of Sauron. Either PJ doesn’t get some things, like the concept of honour in Tolkien’s world, or the visual image takes precedence.
5b: Why was Legolas surprised? Was he unhappy with the timing or the act of the beheading itself?
--Both, I think. He wanted to hear more of what the Orc had to say and he probably isn't pleased about his father breaking his word.
5c: What did you think was going through Thranduil's mind when he drew his sword? Was it a voluntary action in the moment?
--Of course it’s a voluntary action. A sword just doesn't leap out of the scabbard on its own and slay somebody . I think that Thranduil does not really act in the heat of the moment and that everything he does is calculated, even if the calculations only take nanoseconds. Thranduil draws his sword intending to kill the Orc and probably always intended to kill him.
5d: What did you think of Thranduil's assertion that he kept his promise to Narzug?
--Ridiculous sophistry!
5e: Does Legolas seem upset at the premature loss of a source of information or was he upset at something else?
--As I said above, I think that Legolas wanted to hear what the Orc had to say and he is likely not pleased about his father breaking his word.
6a: What did you think of Thranduil's facility with his sword here? Was it a surprise he is such an adept at swordsmanship?
--Like everything Thranduil does, his swordsmanship looks really great. Was he not shaking the blood off just before he sheathed the sword? It didn't surprise me that he is adept with a sword.
6b: What kind of weapon do you think will be unleashed, that could cause such grave concern in Thranduil? How would he know or guess at the weapon and the magnitude of its destructive abilities?
--I thought the Orc was referring to Smaug. Everybody knows about the dragon and its capabilities.
6c: Thranduil already seem to run the realm as a militant state. Did you think security could be further tightened?
--Well, before Thranduil’s last orders were implemented Tauriel was obviously free to leave and go into the forest, so I suppose there is room for tightening of security.
7a: Is it possible to have surveillance at such a high level that Thranduil literally knows everything going on within his realm?
--No, I don’t think so; Thranduil is an Elf not a Valar and can’t know everything. Presumably Thranduil’s realm includes some of Mirkwood and the doors being sealed does not preclude authorized scouts going out (or food coming in).
7b: Legolas carries out the King's orders. What office would he hold in Thranduil's court/military to be entrusted the task of overseeing the King's instructions?
--I would think that Legolas is his father’s lieutenant, tasked with seeing that the king’s orders are implemented, and also his second-in-command.
7c: What did you think of Tauriel's action? What do you think Legolas will do next?
--I think that Tauriel is so disillusioned with Thranduil that she decides to go out and do what she thinks is right, maybe even to show Thranduil up. She must feel strongly about it since she deserts her post. This is before the king’s orders to close the doors are issued, so she doesn't actually defy that last order. It didn't surprise me that Legolas follows Tauriel, as they seem to be close.
7d: How do you think Thranduil will react when he finds out Tauriel has left without permission and has essentially gone AWOL?
--Old control freak will likely be furious, in fact Legolas later says that his father is angry.
General questions
8a: Did the scene change your perception of the following characters, from the earlier scenes? Why or why not?
--I would say that my understanding of these characters was deepened rather than changed.
i) Thranduil
--We learned more of his world view and saw more deeply into his paranoia and fear. We saw that it’s just as well that Thorin didn't make a deal with Thranduil, because he doesn't necessarily keep his word. For the first time we saw the skilled warrior.
ii) Legolas
--Though obedient, he is clearly at ease with his father and not afraid to challenge him. He obviously has a close relationship with Tauriel which includes non-verbal communication.
iii) Tauriel
--She is as Beorn described her people: dangerous and less wise, that is impulsive and prone to violence. She has lightning reflexes. We saw that she cares what happens to Kili and that she’s not afraid to go against her king’s wishes and do what she thinks is right.
iv) Mirkwood Elves in general
--No change.
v) Orcs
--This Orc seemed like other Orcs.
8b: What did you think of the respective portrayals by the actors?
--Pace and Lilly were great, Orlie was as good as he ever is, which is good enough.
8c: What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the orc close-ups, the background renderings of the Halls?
--I am no connoisseur of CGI so I found it all completely believable, and lovely. I was convinced by the Orc.
8d: Book readers: As you know, this is a totally non-canon scene. What do you think of this scene overall? Likes and dislikes?
--I like this scene just fine. There is some exposition from the Orc and a lot of great character stuff, particularly for Thranduil and Tauriel. As a Tolkien book fan, the thing that jarred me, as I said above, was the notion that an Elf would stoop to the kind of trickery that Thranduil employed. But this is the movieverse, so that’s how it is.
8e: Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?
--I don’t see any reason to expand this scene. It seems complete to me but if there is more, all the better.
8f: Any other comments or thoughts?
--IMO Thranduil's butler who describes him as "our ill-tempered king" is not wrong. Thranduil is something of a jerk, more so than Thorin even, and the tragic back story provided for each doesn't mitigate that, even though it helps in understanding what is going on. But both are great characters, much more interesting than their book counterparts. Thranduil is more like one of Feanor’s crafty sons from the Silmarillion than an Elf of the Third Age and that makes him fascinating. Plus, again like Thorin, Thranduil is beautiful and elegant, has great hair, costumes and weaponry and is a badass warrior. It’s all good. They can’t all be Bard or Bilbo.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Sep 8 2014, 6:08pm
Post #23 of 57
(5422 views)
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Well, Lurker, if this is what you can do on short notice, you are going to wow us if you get a head start on one…
1a: What did you think of the way the scene segues from the orcs to the throne-atrium of Thranduil, and then to the shot of Narzug being held at knife-point by Legolas, with Thranduil in the background? Does it surprise you to see the elegant Elvenking leading an orc interrogation?
I keep getting distracted by wondering how the Orcs seem to be running around in sunlight—or maybe they’re in the shadows of the trees there? Still, these guys are hardy during the daytime...
1b: What did you think of Thranduil's lead-in monologue?
It is a tribute to Lee Pace that it only just occurred to me in the last week or so, after having watched this movie dozens and dozens of times, that this monologue is kind of…superfluous? Oddly placed? I’m not sure! But while it serves as a nice transition, and gives us some insight into Thranduil’s philosophy, it doesn’t seem to have any real function in the scene itself. I’m pretty sure Legolas and Tauriel know all this by now, and surely he doesn’t hope to intimidate an Orc by talking up the inevitability of evil and calling him foul? Unless I miss my guess, Narzug probably takes it as a compliment. Then again, maybe that’s part of the Good Elf-Bad Elf routine we’re seeing.
In any case, only Thranduil, Gandalf, Thorin, and possibly Elrond have the character gravitas to carry off this sort of monologue, and Lee Pace does it very well.
1c: Why do you think this interrogation is being held in the open, and like Thorin's audience, in the throne-atrium?
The intimidation factor, I suppose. That throne alone would intimidate me!
1d: Why are there only 2 guards on the lower steps of the throne-atrium this time compared to Thorin's audience where there were at least 4 more along the raised platform on either side of the floor?
This seems to me to be all about damage control. Thranduil probably wants very few to overhear what is said. Also I would imagine that since he, Legolas, and Tauriel are all armed for this encounter, more guards aren’t needed.
1e: What is your impression of the details of the surroundings this time round?
It seems darker. Is that symbolic?
2a: Does it seem like Morgul blades are easy to come by 60 years earlier than the events of LotR?
Well, if I knew exactly what a Morgul blade/shaft was, I could tell you! If they are supposed to be nasty weapons forged by Angmar in his heyday, then I guess there might have been a number buried (in movieverse, of course) with the Nine, and these were also “necromanced” back to “life,” as it were, when the Nine were busted out. But if anyone can explain what this Morgul poison is supposed to be on the arrow, I’d be grateful. In any case, the idea is that there is a connection between the Orcs and the Necromancer/Sauron.
2b: Why would Tauriel display such concern for the wounded Kili? Would she be so riled up if it was another Dwarf who was shot?
It’s because she’s connected with Kili and knows him personally now that this gets her goat. I don’t think she’d be quite so worried about any other Dwarf.
2c: Thranduil has been observing the proceedings quietly. What do you think he's thinking about Tauriel's reaction?
He’s thinking he’ll let her have her head until her temper gets the better of her, which probably comes sooner than he expected.
2d: What is your impression of Tauriel essentially stopping mid-stroke at just a word from Thranduil?
She’s got fabulous Elf reflexes.
2e: What do you think Narzug is thinking at this point?
I must admit I quite admire Narzug. He certainly is fearless. (Isn’t he the one who advocated attacking Beorn in bear form?) He’s got to know he’s going to die, but he doesn’t seem to care—I think this is because he so identifies with the Evil Cause that he’s happy to contribute to anything to further it. If that means taunting some Elves and putting the fear of Sauron in them, he’s all for it.
I like the way Tauriel doesn’t flinch when she walks by Narzug and he kind of growls/slightly lunges at her. Nothing beats steady Elf disdain.
3a: What is Tauriel thinking, hearing the portentous words from her King about Kili's fate?
She’s thinking she disagreed with Thranduil from the beginning, and now is the time to do something about it, when she has a personal stake in it.
3b: What does the look between Tauriel and Legolas mean?
I don’t really know.
3c: What did you think of Thranduil's offer of freedom? Was Narzug naive to think he would actually be set free?
No, I think he’s just happy to have the opportunity to say something nasty to them and make the Elves think twice about whether they should be afraid.
3d: Narzug's hatred and disdain for Thorin seems to outweigh the vaulted Elf-Orc enmity. Why would this be so?
He’s taking his cues from Azog, I think. Also, see above. By saying Thorin will never make it, he’s leading up to his Big Reveal.
3e: Is Legolas' statement about Erebor something he believes or a ruse to elicit more information from Narzug?
Both, I think.
4a: Who is Narzug's master? And who is "the One"?
Master = Azog
The One = Sauron
4b: Narzug seems to be know about the big plans. Was this usual for orc grunts? Or was Narzug a commissioned officer in the orc corps?
I don’t know, but Narzug seems pretty intelligent and maybe even ambitious. He probably picked up on what was going on, even if he isn’t an “officer.”
4c: Was Narzug cocky with confidence or a false sense of security when he condescends on Legolas with the "Elfing" term?
Pretty much just cocky. He seems pretty sure the Dark Side is going to win, whether or not he lives, and he gets to have a little fun mocking the Elves before he dies.
4d: Why did you think Thranduil was getting concerned with Narzug's words?
We know he knows all about dragonfire and its wrath and ruin. It left him with some terrible scars (whether only psychological or also physical, I’m not sure). He was so scared of it that he didn’t help the Erebor Dwarves when they were starving. Thranduil is perfectly capable of putting two and two together (Thorin returning to the mountain where Smaug lives/Thorin being chased by Orcs) and sees immediately what is going to happen.
5a: Were you surprised at Thranduil's action? What impression did it give you when he beheaded the orc? Was his confidence and ability with the sword a surprise?
Yes, I was surprised Thranduil killed him. I thought Thorin was exaggerating when he said he wouldn’t trust Thranduil to keep his word… I thought Thranduil would find a way to squirm out of what he said, but not outright killing. No, I wasn’t surprised he was so good with a sword—maybe I’d been spoiled about that or something.
What surprises me is how he decapitated the Orc without nicking Legolas’s blade which was being held there.
And also, I like how the Orc is still twitching when Thranduil puts his boot on him.
5b: Why was Legolas surprised? Was he unhappy with the timing or the act of the beheading itself?
He seems surprised but not shocked, which says a lot about Thranduil in itself.  He doesn’t seem terribly worried about the ethics of what happened, just the practicality of doing it before they’d pumped the Orc more. Takes after Daddy that way, I guess.
5c: What did you think was going through Thranduil's mind when he drew his sword? Was it a voluntary action in the moment?
Yes, of course it was voluntary. I think he felt this was a symbol of the way he’d deal with all such threats if he had his choice—cut them off in a hurry and avoid thinking about the larger implications.
5d: What did you think of Thranduil's assertion that he kept his promise to Narzug?
Nice try.
5e: Does Legolas seem upset at the premature loss of a source of information or was he upset at something else?
He doesn’t seem to grasp the Smaug connection, so he seems more concerned with getting more information from the Orc himself. I notice he doesn’t press his father, asking for more information. Maybe he doesn’t care to have Thranduil’s ill temper come down on himself.
6a: What did you think of Thranduil's facility with his sword here? Was it a surprise he is such an adept at swordsmanship?
Not a surprise, and he certainly looks good doing it.
6b: What kind of weapon do you think will be unleashed, that could cause such grave concern in Thranduil? How would he know or guess at the weapon and the magnitude of its destructive abilities?
I think the “flames of war” is a pretty good clue that it’s Smaug. See 4d.
6c: Thranduil already seem to run the realm as a militant state. Did you think security could be further tightened?
Yes, I’d think so—his realm has pretty big borders.
7a: Is it possible to have surveillance at such a high level that Thranduil literally knows everything going on within his realm?
Sure, especially if he’s got those bird messengers, like in the book.
7b: Legolas carries out the King's orders. What office would he hold in Thranduil's court/military to be entrusted the task of overseeing the King's instructions?
Prince.
7c: What did you think of Tauriel's action? What do you think Legolas will do next?
7d: How do you think Thranduil will react when he finds out Tauriel has left without permission and has essentially gone AWOL?
We have Legolas’s word later on that Thranduil is angry. We must assume that this is because, regardless of at what point he gave the orders for the doors to be sealed, she was supposed to know she was not to venture out, at least not as far as she did. I think he’s really going to have a cow when he finds out Legolas went after her.
General questions
8a: Did the scene change your perception of the following characters, from the earlier scenes? Why or why not?
i) Thranduil
Turns out he really doesn’t keep his word.
ii) Legolas
He just doesn’t seem like the very "young"/"innocent" Legolas we knew in LOTR.
iii) Tauriel
Seems even more impulsive than I thought.
iv) Mirkwood Elves in general
If they really can guard their borders against Smaug, they’re pretty awesome.
v) Orcs
As I mentioned, I have a sneaking admiration for Narzug. He’s my favorite Orc since the “Meat’s back on the menu, boys” Orc.
8b: What did you think of the respective portrayals by the actors?
Lee Pace and Evangeline Lilly were fantastic.
8c: What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the orc close-ups, the background renderings of the Halls?
I quite liked Narzug’s little pinpoint eyes. Creepy.
8d: Book readers: As you know, this is a totally non-canon scene. What do you think of this scene overall? Likes and dislikes?
It’s fine—I don’t mind non-canon scenes if they make sense, keep the general themes of the movie, and move the plot along. I like this one because it gives us great insight into both the Dark Side plan and also Thranduil.
8e: Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?
8f: Any other comments or thoughts?
First, I have to wonder whether the Smaug-Sauron alliance is as much of a done deal as Narzug thinks it is. I think it’s pretty clear that Smaug’s words to Bilbo, “a darkness is coming,” means he’s been chatting with Sauron’s envoys somehow and knows Sauron’s plans. But whether he has agreed to anything seems to be in doubt. My personal take is that Smaug, being the sly devil he is, is probably holding out for the best offer from Sauron, which hasn’t yet come.
Second, I have to wonder whether Thranduil’s shocked expression when he hears Narzug’s words about “the One” has any regret in it. Surely, if he has grasped that Sauron = the One and that he has risen again in power, Thranduil has also realized that it has happened on his doorstep, and he has done nothing whatsoever to prevent it, when he had every opportunity. And he himself and his kingdom will likely bear a great deal of the consequences of what will happen if Smaug is in fact in league with Sauron.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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VValar
Gondor
Sep 9 2014, 12:08am
Post #24 of 57
(5369 views)
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Thanks for reading my reply as well
[In reply to]
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And I have read all of the replies already, lots of input. It's funny how certain aspects are viewed so differently
He should! But I guess he's still too conflicted over whether to feel proud to have such a badass dad or to despair over ever catching up with him.
Yeah I can relate to how Legolas is feeling. It's not easy to stand in the shadow of your amazing Dad. But I must say, Leggy doesn't do all too bad himself either. After all, he takes after his father
Nicely put. And tricking Smaug is a new take on the Smaug in cahoots with the Necromancer angle that's been bandied about.
Thnx. I really don't see Smaug risking his neck for a cause that isn't his own lust and search for gold and more treasure. But he seems to be pretty content with the treasure he has conquered at Erebor. Then again, he does also appear to love killing and cause death and destruction all over the place. But not without a very good reason (gaining more treasure, or getting riled up by some Dwarves and a Hobbit).
Yeah! I love how the effect was achieved, clever use of camera angles and editing vs CGI. Gives it believability and added sense of realism and plausibility. Likes V much! and just cos!
As always, very much appreciated!
Narzug and the way they shot Thranduil's beheading of him really shows CGI isn't the answer to everything and PJ and crew know it. I jsut wish they'd find ways of using it more judiciously overall too.
Me too, I still prefer 'real' camera work over CGI whenever possible. Although I do think they are absolute CGI masters when it comes to creating environments, Gollem and Smaug. Wish there was less CGI in the Dol Goldur scenes though, the place somehow didn't feel as real to me as it should be.
(This post was edited by VValar on Sep 9 2014, 12:08am)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Sep 9 2014, 2:38am
Post #25 of 57
(5366 views)
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at the end of the scene that she is AWOL without having Legolas say it later to confirm, but I've said my piece in my reply to Bladerunner so I'll leave it at that.
Also, I think the reason we have Tauriel acting as she does (albeit in a rather impulsive manner) is because she is doing what she knows to be right (fighting evil instead of doing nothing about it), even in defiance of a respected leader. Sound familiar? I think her actions are meant to be a parallel to Bilbo's later actions with the Arkenstone, in defiance of Thorin. And doing what is right against the odds or despite being expected to do otherwise is a major theme of LOTR too, and no doubt PJ and Co. have this in mind. I get themes and resonance. But to me, this is where the production brilliantly demonstrated their too keen obsession with perpetuating motifs and fractals through the series. Firstly, did we really need the resonance and parallels with Bilbo when it seems like more of an unnecessary distracting duplicate in view of the main Bilbo plotline that's going on in the very same story? And I don't get why her? There are other existing characters who can be the vessel without having to insert an invented character to carry it. Bilbo can apply a bit of detachment for the greater good, and it is truly for the greater good, in his decision because he is not a Dwarf with all the emo baggage. Doesn't mean anyone else can or should be put in similar situations. Also, there's a big difference between Bilbo and her. Bilbo's relationship to the Dwarves is not like her relationship to Thranduil, Legolas and her people in Mirkwood, neither in length, intimacy nor even shared history. Great, she's a doer who wants to do what is right and listen to her heart, by all means, please do. But it just doesn't wash, to me, that she ups and leaves for an extended absence without leaving any word to anyone at all; it is simply a betrayal of her station, duty and responsibility of all her roles in the realm that we've been given insight to, however shallow, especially in view of the imminent and present dangers to her people and home.
Having said that, doesn't mean there's no chance I won't be eating my words with a cold serving of crow at the end. I love this trilogy (so far) despite its often infuriating warts, and I'm still hopeful for a great ending and resolution to everything, including all these *tsk* frills and fluff, because I do intend to watch and rewatch the entire beast end to end and I hope I can enjoy it as much as possible without tsking my teeth out.
Fan of both books and movies; I am a lurker by nature though it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII
(Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!. (A writing triangle with Avandel and Kerewyn)
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Very good first CHOW response
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