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Swan-boats - Fellowship of the Ring

leonmuse
Rivendell


Sep 1 2014, 2:06am

Post #1 of 11 (1297 views)
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Swan-boats - Fellowship of the Ring Can't Post

Hello, everyone! Good night or evening or... Well, I hope everyone is having a good-something :D
I'm from Brazil and the hour here is different from most of your countries (23h09 right now).

Well, i propose a brief discussion the Swan-boats given to the Fellowship by Galadriel.

The question is: Are these Swan-boats the remnant of the fleet the Noldor (Feanor and his family) stole as they kinslew their elven Teleri brothers?

It would be such a link to The Silmarillion, even if Tolkien didn't mention it. Perhaps Galadriel wanted to show her goodwill to the Valar by giving these once accursed boats to the Fellowship for a noble cause, a greater good, to redeem herself and her folk for what her Noldor brothers have done.

Please discuss!

OBS. to MODS/Admins: If this is better suited to the LOTR Movies section, feel free to move it. Thanks in advance!


(This post was edited by leonmuse on Sep 1 2014, 2:10am)


squire
Half-elven


Sep 1 2014, 2:49am

Post #2 of 11 (1071 views)
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Swanning around [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you sure the river boats that the Fellowship received from Celeborn were "swan boats"? I remember that Galadriel said farewell to the company from a swan boat, clearly described as such. But I don't remember that the boats the Elves gave the company were anything but plain water craft, described as being slightly tricky to navigate but visually quite undistinguished; nothing about swans.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 1 2014, 2:08pm

Post #3 of 11 (1052 views)
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Nerwen's swan ship [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, as noted it was Galadriel's swan vessel.'... turned a sharp bend in the river, and there, sailing proudly down the stream towards them, they saw a swan of great size. The water rippled on either side of the white breasts beneath its curving neck. Its beak shone like burnished gold, and its eyes glinted like jet set in yellow stones; its huge white wings were half lifted. A music came down the river as it drew nearer; and suddenly they perceived that it was a ship, wrought and carved with elven-skill in the likeness of a bird.'

The Lord of the Rings, Book II, Farewell to Lórien

This was different from the gift of boats to the Fellowship.




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 1 2014, 2:47pm

Post #4 of 11 (1035 views)
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It doesn't seem likely. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would expect that the ships that the Noldor siezed to sail back to Middle-earth would have been much larger than the riverboats used by the Fellowship.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 1 2014, 2:59pm

Post #5 of 11 (1040 views)
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Nerwen on ice [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember [not that you didn't] that Galadriel crossed the Grinding Ice without ships*, and Feanor burned the ships at Losgar.

And I don't think the Teleri would have given any ships to this remaining leader of the Noldorin Rebellion [Galadriel], after the fall of Morgoth, despite her being Galadriel and her Telerin connection.


_______
*this does not consider the very late, never published by JRRT himself [see UT], account of Galadriel departing from Aman separate from the Rebellion of course.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 1 2014, 3:13pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 1 2014, 5:26pm

Post #6 of 11 (1021 views)
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I picture the three boats as [In reply to] Can't Post

almost canoe-like.


Quote
Three small grey boats had been made ready for the travelers, and in these the Elves stowed their goods... [and] It would be wise if you accustomed yourselves to stepping in and out, here where there is a landing-place, . . - FOTR -Farewell to Lorien


It seems the capacity of these small boats was 3 (possibly more?) people and could be paddled by two (or even one person), and were somewhat wayward. These were definitely NOT ocean-going vessels.

"...or ever still a herald on
an errand that should never rest
to bear his shining lamp afar,
the Flammifer of Westernesse."

-Bilbo Baggins


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 3 2014, 2:04pm

Post #7 of 11 (988 views)
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"Maids from the south / through Myrkwood flew," [In reply to] Can't Post

The Fellowships boats are described by Boromir as “cockle-boats”. A cockle-boat is a small boat, especially one used as a tender. Also, called a cock-boat.

'I do not see why we should pass the Rapids or follow the River any further,' said Boromir. `If the Emyn Muil lie before us, then we can abandon these cockle-boats, and strike westward and southward, until we come to the Entwash and cross into my own land.'
-Fellowship of the Ring, The Great River

It seems to be an homage to Tom Bombadil’s boat:

Tom Bombadil!
Whither be you going,
Bobbing in a cockle-boat,
Down the river rowing?"

-Bombadil Goes Boating

The cockle shell is the symbol of St. James of Spain. It was the symbol of the crusaders of the Order of Saint James.

Strangely enough, there’s a sly “cockle-boat” reference in Harvard Lampoon’s Bored of the Rings:

Garfinkel strode back out onto the porch and produced a small tin whistle on which he blew a single, ear-splitting, flat note, whereupon the sheep wandered aimlessly away.
"Magical," sighed Spam.

"Follow me," said Garfinkel, and he led Stomper and the boggies along a narrow muddy path which wound through clumps of flowering rhodogravure bushes and towering shoe trees. As he walked along, Frito smelled an evanescent fragrance of new-mown hay mingled with bleach and mustard, and from afar off he heard the delicate, heart-breaking twangs of a mouth-harp and a few shreds of an elvish song:

"Row, row, row your elebethiel saliva githiel
Mann a fubar lothario syzygy snafu
O bring back my sucaryl Penna Ariz Fla mass."

-- Chapter IV: Finders Keepers, Finders Weepers

(githiel = “cockle-boat lady”)

Cockles were also worn on the hat, giving us a Shakespeare connection:

Though not How should I your true love know
From another one?
By his cockle hat and staff,
And his sandal shoon.

He is dead and gone, lady,
He is dead and gone;
At his head a grass-green turf,
At his heels a stone.

White his shroud as the mountain snow,--
Larded with sweet flowers
Which bewept to the grave did go
With true-love showers.

-Ophelia, Hamlet, Act 4 scene 5

But you were thinking of the connection between Swan-boats and the Sil:

Here must be told how the Teleri came at last to the land of Aman. Through a long age they dwelt in Tol Eressëa; but slowly their hearts were changed, and were drawn towards the light that flowed out over the sea to the Lonely Isle. They were torn between the love of the music of the waves upon their shores, and the desire to see again their kindred and to look upon the splendour of Valinor; but in the end desire of the light was the stronger. Therefore Ulmo, submitting to the will of the Valar, sent to them Ossë, their friend, and he though grieving taught them the craft of ship-building; and when their ships were built he brought them as his parting gift many strong-winged swans. Then the swans drew the white ships of the Teleri over the windless sea; and thus at last and latest they came to Aman and the shores of Eldamar.


And many pearls [the Teleri] won for themselves from the sea, and their halls were of pearl, and of pearl were the mansions of Olwë at Alqualondë, the Haven of the Swans, lit with many lamps. For that was their city, and the haven of their ships; and those were made in the likeness of swans, with beaks of gold and eyes of gold and jet.

-Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 5 – Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië

Note the connection with the ubiquitous European folk tale of the Swan-maiden:

Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart; and afterwards he was a friend of the sons of Olwë, lord of the Teleri, and had to wife Eärwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualondë, Olwë's daughter.
-ibid

From The Poetic Edda, The Lay of Völund

1. Maids from the south | through Myrkwood flew,
Fair and young, | their fate to follow;
On the shore of the sea | to rest them they sat,
The maids of the south, | and flax they spun.

2. ….(lost). . . . . . . . . .
Hlathguth and Hervor, | Hlothver's children,
And Olrun the Wise | Kjar's daughter was.

3. . . . .(lost) . . . . . .
One in her arms | took Egil then
To her bosom white, | the woman fair.

4. Swan-White second,-- | swan-feathers she wore,
. . . (lost). . . . . . .
And her arms the third | of the sisters threw
Next round Völund's | neck so white.

5. There did they sit | for seven winters,
In the eighth at last | came their longing again,
(And in the ninth | did need divide them).
The maidens yearned | for the murky wood,
The fair young maids, | their fate to follow.


The idea of Galadriel as a swan-maiden who returns to the "Land East o' the Sun and West o' the Moon" and Celeborn as the storied swan maiden's husband who must find a way to follow her there is intriguing. One wonders if Tolkien had a story planned there.

******************************************
Buri-Ghân-Ghân Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Ghân-Ghân Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Ghân-Ghân Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Oh you Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân we love you.
And our Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân loves us too.
East, west, anywhere we go, on Buri-Ghân we depend
Ghân-Ghân-Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Our fine Drúedainic friend!
Ghân-Ghân-Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Our fine Drúedainic friend!!


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 3 2014, 2:10pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 3 2014, 2:57pm

Post #8 of 11 (974 views)
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Nice post Darkstone [In reply to] Can't Post

And while a bit off the path, someone called Lord of the Rings [a person] also wrote up a nice thread about swans and Elves. I hope he doesn't mind me posting his three posts, all in one, here. And for those who are easily bored by linguistic stuff... well I'm not, but you have been warned. There's a Harry Potter reference though!

From Lord of the Rings -- the person (I would simply quote the following but sometimes that makes the presentation difficult when there are underlined words). I'm adding paragraphs -- and taking out some special characters. Apologies to Lord of the Rings for that, but certain characters didn't copy any paste well here.

__________

In the Old Norse poem Volundarkviğa, the background of the story somewhat curiously draws in both swans and elves. The basic myth, as found in the Poetic Edda, tells about the captivity of the smith Wayland (Old Norse Volund) in service of King Níğuğr, and of Wayland's brutal but masterful revenge on the king. But before getting to this main part of the story, the poem tells how Wayland and his two brothers came across three strange maidens, and the three brothers married the three maidens, living together for nine years until the maidens departed off to the north for Mirkwood. (Wayland stayed behind and was captured by Niğuğr, leading to the rest of the story, while his brothers were off looking for their lost wives.)

The mythological connections are pretty thick in this relatively archaic poem: the maidens are swan-maidens, and can fly. When the brothers first discover them, their swan-garments lay near them (the Old Norse says Şar vóro hiá şeim álptarhamir şeira, with the element álpt- 'swan' being a very interesting word linguistically), and the very first words of the poem are about them flying as swans (Meyiar flugo sunnan/ myrkviğ í gognum 'maidens flew from the South/ headed toward Mirkwood').

The three brothers are apparently Elves. Although there is a prose prologue which says they are sons of the Finnish king, the poem itself doesn't mention anything about Finnland, and calls Wayland álfa lióği' 'prince of Elves' (10.2a) and vísi álfa 'ruler of Elves' (32.1b). This poem doesn't say that the swan-maidens are Elves, but does draw a pretty close association between the two types of being.

Also curious is the opening of the story of Kullervo in the Kalevala which gives the ancestor of that tragic hero (not an 'Elf' as such - there was no such distinct category in Finnish folklore) as a swan:

A mother reared chicks a great crowd of swans; she set the chicks on the fence brought the swans to the river. An eagle came, snatched them up a hawk came and scattered them a winged bird strewed them: one it bore to Karelia one it took to Russian soil and the third it left at home.The one it took to Russia grew to be a trading man the one borne to Karelia grew up to be Kalervo [Kullervo's father] and the one it left at home sprang up to be Untamo [the main villain of the episode] who would blight his father's days who would break his mother's heart. -The Kalevala, canto 31, trans. Keith Bosley, p. 432

Tolkien cites this as an example of the 'wealth of mythology' in the world of the Kalevala, and of its 'delightful atmosphere/variety', noting that 'Kullervo, most tragic of peasant boys, is but two generations from a swan' (Kalevala Essay, either draft; TS7 p. 254 and p. 275). As I said, there is no Elvish linkage per se, but this reinforces further the impression that a) swans have a fair mythological significance in the North, and b) the categories between swans and human-like beings are relatively blurry.

I've given these two mythological examples basically as a prelude what I think is a much more interesting linguist web surrounding the words for swans and Elves in Germanic, Indo-European, and Eldarin, which are coming in the next post due to length.

*albh

Like I said, the connections between Elves and swans get much more interesting (though not necessarily clearer) when we turn to language. The Germanic languages have two common words for 'swan'. One is the familiar swan (Common Germanic *swanaz), a name apparently given either for the sound that swans make when they fly, or for the idea of the 'swan song' (the belief that the mute swan is normally, as the name implies, silent, but sings a beautiful song just before dying). The word is ultimately cognate with Latin sonus, from which we get our word sound.

But it's the other Germanic swan-word that's more interesting right now. I mentioned it in the post above, where the Norse for is álpt (the 'p' actually represents an 'f' sound). Old High German also has this word as alpiz, and it appears in Old English (ylfetu in the 'normal' West Saxon dialect, aelbitu in the more archaic dialect of Mercia). These all come from a Common Germanic *albito; 'swan'.

This word, *albito, looks like it is probably a derivative of a well-known Indo-European root *albh 'white, bright', presumably because swans are so strikingly white (using a suffix *-ido). This root is also the source of Latin albus 'white, bright', whence we get Albus Dumbledore. More immediately relevant, it is also the source of the word elf, which comes from Common Germanic *albiz (there was also a common variant *albaz), and apparently referring to the idea of Elves has being bright or shining somehow. Because of this probable common derivation (or a the least, coincidence of sound), Germanic is filled with similar word-pairs for Elves and swans:

Old Norse álpt 'swan' (remember the 'p' represents an 'f' sound (...) álfr 'elf'

Old English (Late West Saxon dialect) ylfetu 'swan' (the 'y' was in later Old English probably just a short 'i', (...), but comes from the German (short) ü sound, [ʏ]) ylf 'elf'

Old High German alpiz 'swan 'alp 'elf'

Now, there's no necessary deep significance to these similarities, but someone like Tolkien could hardly have missed the similarity here, and in light of the (at least partial) mythological association between Elves and swans in Germanic it is hard to wonder if this was not at least reinforced by these words.

alph

The words for 'swan' are an enduring part of the Elvish lexicon. In the very earliest versions of the Elvish languages, we find Gnomish alfa alongside Qenya alqa (the latter still recognizable decades later in Alqualondë 'swan-haven'). The Gnomish form winds up as Sindarin alph, and the resemblance of this word to the Germanic words cited above may not be entirely incidental. If nothing else, I would say that we have here a particular sound-sense relationship that Tolkien found pleasing or appropriate, of the sound alf- and the idea 'swan'.

In the earliest stage of Eldarin, there is also an etymological similarity. The Qenya Lexicon gives the swan-words under the root (I)LKL which seems to mean 'blaze, be brilliant' - the derivation must be basically the same as Germanic, calling the bright white birds after their most distinctive visual trait.

Later on Tolkien changed this, and the Etymologies lists the swan-words under ÁLAK 'rushing', apparently particularly used for rushing wind or flight. I think anyone who's heard a swan fly will agree that this is an appropriate etymology, but it does make the word somewhat less similar to the Germanic word in terms of its semantic derivation.

That said, I think in the earliest stages of his working out the Elvish languages, Tolkien drew quite heavily on a (to him) familiar and possibly significant Germanic sound and semantic complex for 'swan'.
__________


Thanks again to Lord of the Rings, linguistic moderator for the Tolkien Fanatics Plaza forums, for this information


(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 3 2014, 3:10pm)


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Sep 3 2014, 3:28pm

Post #9 of 11 (961 views)
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Me too [In reply to] Can't Post

The fellowship's boats were pretty ordinary looking I thought. But Galadriel's was definitely a swan and could have been a link.




"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 3 2014, 5:02pm

Post #10 of 11 (950 views)
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Thanks for that! [In reply to] Can't Post

Good info on the elf-swan connection.

******************************************
Buri-Ghân-Ghân Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Ghân-Ghân Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Ghân-Ghân Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Oh you Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân we love you.
And our Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân loves us too.
East, west, anywhere we go, on Buri-Ghân we depend
Ghân-Ghân-Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Our fine Drúedainic friend!
Ghân-Ghân-Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Our fine Drúedainic friend!!


Meneldor
Valinor


Sep 9 2014, 10:04pm

Post #11 of 11 (1041 views)
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This popped up on my FB page and seemed relevant... [In reply to] Can't Post

...sort of.



They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107

 
 

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