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delius82
Rivendell
Aug 31 2014, 11:26pm
Post #1 of 33
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What type of elves reside at Rivendell?
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Sindar? Noldor? Sylvan? Thanks for your responses. :)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 1 2014, 12:41am
Post #2 of 33
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I have moved your post to the Reading Room as the local denizens will probably be able to answer you without even having to crack open the book. 
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2014, 1:02am
Post #3 of 33
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All of the Elves of Rivendell seem to be Eldar. I would guess that they were mostly Noldor and perhaps some Sindar.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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leonmuse
Rivendell
Sep 1 2014, 1:38am
Post #4 of 33
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Hail, Otaku sempai! I always like your posts, the majority of them. But are you sure the Rivendell elves are Noldor? Tough i have read the Silma, I'm not very learned in the legendarium.
It's just that the Rivendell elves, especially the ones from the Hobbit seem so not Noldor, if you understand me, not even Elrond or his sons. They're kinder of heart, unlike Feanor or even Galadriel.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2014, 1:44am
Post #5 of 33
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Well, Elrond is Noldor by his Elven parent; his children are of mixed Eldarin parentage. I'm certain that most Noldor Elves remaining in Middle-earth are likely to be in Rivendell (Lady Galadriel being the best-known exception). I am confident that most Elves residing in Rivendell are at least Eldar.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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leonmuse
Rivendell
Sep 1 2014, 3:25am
Post #6 of 33
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Yes, you're probably right, as usual (Bilbo's quote).
While we're at it, and hoping i'm not going too much off-topic:
In the TA, the Elves in these locations are:
Rivendel: Noldor and Sindar
Lothlorien: Noldor and ???
Mirkwood: Silvan and ???
Another question: Are the Silvan elves a sub-race?
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Sep 1 2014, 4:17am
Post #7 of 33
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I cheated and went to the Encyclopedia of Arda.
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Elrond is a descendent of the three elf kindreds: Noldor (through Finwe, who was High King), Vanyar (through Finwe's wife Idril) and Teleri (through Thingol, a lord of the Sindar). Of course there is Maiar blood as well, through Thingol's wife Melian.
I'm not sure if Elrond is generally considered to 'belong' to one bloodline more than another.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 1 2014, 7:42am
Post #8 of 33
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There was a lot of change in the 60 years...
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...between The Hobbit and LotR.
It's just that the Rivendell elves, especially the ones from the Hobbit seem so not Noldor, if you understand me, not even Elrond or his sons. They're kinder of heart, unlike Feanor or even Galadriel.
Yes, they're very different, just as the tone of the books is very different. It's fun to think about in-story rationales. Here's what comes to my mind:
Option 1: the threat level is higher in LotR, so the Elves at Rivendell sobered up, and no longer go tra-la-lally.
Option 2: Elrond, who is only Half-Elven, but that half represents all three kindreds plus Melian, cracked down and told them to straighten up and get serious.
Option 3: The tra-la-lally Elves got bored with life in Rivendell and sailed West, leaving only sober, noble Elves to cope with Sauron.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Sep 1 2014, 7:43am)
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Cari
Bree
Sep 1 2014, 10:52am
Post #9 of 33
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Lothlorien: Noldor and Silvan, there may be some Sindar there as well.
Mirkwood: Silvan and Sindar- (Legolas and his father Thranduil are Sindar)
Silvan elves aren't technically a sub-race; they were the type of elves that never went west in the beginning.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 1 2014, 1:06pm
Post #10 of 33
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The blue parts are quotes from JRRT, so my short answer is that Rivendell was mostly Noldorin. The Road Goes Ever On [published by Tolkien in 1967] employs the term High Elves to refer to the Noldor, which is usually how High Elves is employed, in general.
Imladris (Rivendell): 'mostly' High Elves (The Road Goes Ever On).
'Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris' (Appendix B, The Return of the King). 'After the fall of Gil-galad, Master Elrond abode in Imladris, and he gathered there many Elves...' (...) 'In Eriador Imladris was the chief dwelling of the High Elves; but at the Grey Havens of Lindon there abode also a remnant of the people of Gil-galad the Elvenking.' (Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age).
Mirkwood and Lórien:
mostly East-elves (Tolkien, The Return of the King Appendix F). We can also call them Silvan Elves, which just means Wood-elves of course.
These East-elves were probably a mix of Nandor and Avari according to some texts, although in the latest text I could find they are Telerin Elves who abandoned the Great March (thus Nandor), and there is no mention of these Elves having been joined by any Avari. Some Sindar migrated from Lindon in the Second Age and ended up in Mirkwood.
Some Sindar and Noldor ended up in Lórien. 'The People of Lórien were even then [i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth] much as they were at the end of the Third Age: Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent (as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood, though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known*). They had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who...' JRRT, History of Galadriel And Celeborn, Unfinished Tales
Lindon
A mix of Noldor and Sindar. In the first edition of The Lord of the Rings there are explicitly Noldor in Lindon according to Appendix B, before some went to Eregion. In the revised version Gil-galad dwelt in Lindon north of the Lune (south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn). Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion. In a note published in Unfinished Tales it was said that south of the Lune were largely Sindarin Elves. In the Third Age a 'remnant of the people of Gil-galad' dwelt at the Havens.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 1 2014, 1:12pm)
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leonmuse
Rivendell
Sep 1 2014, 1:09pm
Post #11 of 33
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I understand that some people get this wrong, i but don't agree on this:
From the events in The Hobbit to 60 years later (LOTR), to me it is not enough time to consider a time of higher threat from Sauron/Barad-Dur.
The threat level in The Hobbit, IMO, is as high in The Hobbit as it is in LOTR. The only difference, and i'm not considering the fact that The Hobbit wasn't initially written as part of a mythology, is that the POV is from an "innocent" Hobbit.
And i would go as far as to say the danger at the time of The Hobbit was greater because Bilbo, unaware of the danger of the Ring, passed through Mirkwood, which its Southern region, as we all know, was Sauron dominion. And he may have felt the Ring's presence somehow.
The fact that Gandalf discovered the One Ring still existed did not make or should not have made a difference to the Rivendell's elves personality, since Gandalf had had no contact with them yet.
Even Galadriel, one that can predict the future, i'm sure she, at the time of The Hobbit, was as worried with Sauron as she was in LOTR, though she wasn't willing to take an active role for the second time in LOTR.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 1 2014, 1:20pm
Post #12 of 33
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Even the Noldor, or all of them, need not always be so serious
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In The Lord of the Rings, Gildor Inglorion, jokingly makes fun of the Hobbits, a bit, when they first meet for example. And I believe the Elves of Rivendell are described as...
"And Elves, sir! Elves here, and Elves there! Some like kings; terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children!'
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leonmuse
Rivendell
Sep 1 2014, 1:27pm
Post #13 of 33
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My favorite part in Rivendell - Hobbit book
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Is when Gandalf tells the happy elves to go away, because they have over-merry tongues ;)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 1 2014, 1:40pm
Post #14 of 33
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Yes, not only are the Elves of Rivendell Eldarin, or mostly so, but Appendix F even states that all the Elves met in this book are Eldar, and only distinguishes the East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien as not Eldar (which in my opinion does not necessarily mean they are Avari however), and their languages as not Eldarin.
The constructed Silmarillion disagrees on this point however, but it is this Silmarillion definition of Eldar [if nonetheless gleaned from texts Tolkien wrote but never published himself] that has largely supplanted (in my opinion) the definition of Eldar given in The Lord of the Rings.
Interestingly again however, in the even later constructed Children of Hurin, Christopher Tolkien gives at least one definition of Eldar that agees with The Lord of the Rings: Christopher Tolkien's entry for Eldar as later published in The Children of Hurin: 'Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.'
That's essentially the same description according to The Lord of the Rings: the Eldar are basically the 'West Elves' -- the Noldor and Sindar, plus the [not named] Vanyar. Or in other words, the Elves who passed West Over Sea, plus the Sindar only [the Sindar passed West to Beleriand at least].
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 1 2014, 1:48pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2014, 1:55pm
Post #15 of 33
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That is essentially my understanding of the Eldar as well, but including all of the Teleri, not just the Sindar.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 1 2014, 2:25pm
Post #16 of 33
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Yes the definition from the constructed Silmarillion should include those Telerin Elves who became the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien, which agrees with Tolkien's late idea about the Tawarwaith or Wood-elves [Unfinished Tales]... that is, the Eldar are all Elves who took up the March originally [and whether or not they crossed the Misty Mountains doesn't change their Eldarin status].
... but that would disagree with The Lord of the Rings -- or at least make things confusing, because the East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are not Eldarin according to The Lord of the Rings, and thus, according to The Silmarillion definition, they could not be Telerin Elves who took up the March but stopped East of the Misty Mountains. And if they were Avarin then it has to be noted that they yet seemingly sailed Over Sea according to The Lord of the Rings.
If forced to choose about the term Eldar I would have to go with author-published text myself -- the compromise being that the Telerin Nandor of Mirkwood and Lorien [as I say, Tolkien's late idea about who these Silvan Elves were in origin] can sail Over Sea but are not considered Eldarin.
It's a bit confusing but if Tolkien wanted the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien to be considered Eldarin he yet did not revise Appendix F in 1965 to make it so -- when he did revise the book in general, including the Appendices.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 1 2014, 2:32pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2014, 2:31pm
Post #17 of 33
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Agreed. The Wood-elves were mostly not Eldar
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Although the Mirkwood Elves were ruled by a Sindar nobility, the Wood-elves were generally not Eldar ("more wild and less wise," as Tolkien would have said). Likewise, the majority of the population of Lothlorien were Silvan Elves who were distant kin to the Wood-elves of Mirkwood.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 1 2014, 2:41pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 1 2014, 2:38pm
Post #18 of 33
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Considering Christopher Tolkien's entry for Eldar in The Children of Hurin, I wonder if he is essentially 'agreeing' that The Lord of the Rings definition should take precedence over the idea in the Silmarillion...
... although I think there are two definitions of Eldar in The Children of Hurin, and perhaps only the one I quoted agrees with Appendix F... I can't remember the other one at the moment, but if it also agreed...
... knowing me, I probably would have quoted it to support that 'wondering'...
Ahem. How unfair am I 
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 1 2014, 6:59pm
Post #19 of 33
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I'm Elizabeth, not Carl, but...
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...I need to point out that Gandalf had been interacting with Elrond and the Rivendell elves since shortly after he arrived in Middle Earth, many many years before any of the events we're considering.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2014, 9:20pm
Post #20 of 33
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The fact that Gandalf discovered the One Ring still existed did not make or should not have made a difference to the Rivendell's elves personality, since Gandalf had had no contact with them yet.
Even Galadriel, one that can predict the future, i'm sure she, at the time of The Hobbit, was as worried with Sauron as she was in LOTR, though she wasn't willing to take an active role for the second time in LOTR.
As Elizabeth stated, Gandalf had been part of the White Council since it was established (re-established?) in TA 2463, so he had been to Rivendell many times since then. However, you are right that Elrond and the High Elves in Rivendell were not aware of the reawakening of the One Ring until after Gandalf confirmed it and possibly not until after his escape from Isengard.
Lady Galadriel had not only brought together the White Council, but had also been a leading member (along with Elrond, Cirdain and Glorfindel) of all of the previous Councils of the Wise. Galadriel did take an active role in the War of the Ring; once Sauron's forces actually attacked Lothlorien, she brought down the walls of Dol Guldur. Through her Mirror (and perhaps through other means as well) she was well-informed about events in other parts of Middle-earth.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Sep 3 2014, 11:16pm
Post #21 of 33
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That the Elves of Rivendell were mostly Noldor and that the Silvain were in Lorien. With possibly Thranduil been Avairi?
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Maciliel
Valinor
Sep 4 2014, 2:25am
Post #22 of 33
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thranduil was a sinda.
what reference do you have, hamfast, that makes you think he might have been avari? i've never heard that.
i do find the avari intriguing. i'd be interested in hearing what kind of leaders and / or monarchs they had, and how they fared, interacting with the second-born.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 4 2014, 12:21pm
Post #23 of 33
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'... many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forest far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the North of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the South of the forest.' Appendix B, first edition
Tolkien altered this reference to Celeborn for the second edition but this description of Thranduil basically remains in the second edition.
There were Silvan Elves in Lorien as you say, but also Mirkwood. Those of Lorien were called the Galadhrim which, contains a tree word [galadh] with a suffix -rim, while Tawarwaith seems to refer more generally to Wood-elves, meaning 'Wood-people' with the second part being -gwaith [initial g is lost in this composition, thus -waith].
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Meneldor
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 2:22am
Post #25 of 33
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Mercy is the mark of a great elf.
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(Poke)
Guess I'm just a good elf.
(Poke)
Well, maybe I'm all right.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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