Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will we see Sauron againn in the BO5A?

Rickster
Rohan

Aug 30 2014, 9:27pm

Post #1 of 21 (2294 views)
Shortcut
Will we see Sauron againn in the BO5A? Can't Post

 


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 30 2014, 9:31pm

Post #2 of 21 (1597 views)
Shortcut
I hope not... [In reply to] Can't Post

When Sauron withdraws from Dol Guldur, he should make for Mordor. However, I cannot dismiss the possibility that Jackson might place him at the Battle of Five Armies.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 30 2014, 9:31pm

Post #3 of 21 (1590 views)
Shortcut
In the film? Surely. [In reply to] Can't Post

At the battle itself, I wouldn't have thought so.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 30 2014, 9:55pm

Post #4 of 21 (1553 views)
Shortcut
I can't picture, myself, the story that would support his presence. [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson, it seems to me, always tries to drive the action through a small group of core characters and give them the active role in changing the story at each stage. It that context, I can't picture how Sauron could be dealt with if he did turn up (certainly not by Bilbo or Thorin and it seems unlikely that Gandalf would accomplish more than the combined efforts of him and the council). So it seems very unlikely to me on that basis.*

Personally, I could picture Gandalf faced with a similar question as he faced at the High Fells in DOS - whether to pursue a suspicion that the "defeated" Sauron was not entirely vanquished or to race to help the company at Erebor. That makes more obvious narrative sense to my limited imagination.

*On the other hand, I think this makes Beorn killing Azog or Bolg less likely too.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Aug 30 2014, 10:47pm

Post #5 of 21 (1535 views)
Shortcut
I'm sure we will see him in the movie. [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson wouldn't think of wrapping up the Dol Guldur plotline without a big climax involving him. Whether he sticks around for the actual battle? Hard to say. The problem it presents if he is at the battle is that he really should be impossible to defeat in a direct confrontation if his perceived power is to survive to LotR. It's appropriate for him to steal away earlier.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Aug 30 2014, 10:51pm)


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Aug 30 2014, 11:35pm

Post #6 of 21 (1479 views)
Shortcut
If so... what about Bilbo and the Ring? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't Sauron be able to sense the One Rings presence on the battlefield? At least when Bilbo uses it what he does.

Yes, Sauron will be in the movie but not at the actual BOTFA.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 31 2014, 12:21am

Post #7 of 21 (1456 views)
Shortcut
You would have thought so - for film Sauron anyway. [In reply to] Can't Post

For book Sauron it's slightly less clear to what extent and under what circumstances he can sense the ring.


Bishop
Gondor


Aug 31 2014, 3:43am

Post #8 of 21 (1447 views)
Shortcut
a simple and GREAT question [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for bringing this up. It's sort of the elephant in the room, really.

I think in some ways Jackson is running into the same problems Tolkien ran into. But Jackson has committed to a full-on continuity between the two trilogies, whereas Tolkien ultimately accepted that the two stories stood on their own, disparate strengths. This has created some very real and very nasty holes, potentially, in Jackson's storytelling. We'll have to wait to see how he handles it. But a couple of clear questions emerge.

1. Sauron never retained his physical form (or even a semblance of his previous form) in LOTR when he was peaked in his power. He was a fiery eye. But now he's an eye, and his physical form is clearly defined as the pupil? It's a cool effect, but why is he fully formed with his helmet and all in the fire? Why is he MORE defined here than in LOTR? I feel like this is an effect they regret not doing in LOTR, instead of the electricity for example. But here it seems WAY premature.

2. The ring is depicted as THE ring in these films, terrible and strong side effects and connection to Sauron intact. Yes, it's the same ring. But it's played in the same way as LOTR, no holds barred. Why doesn't Sauron feel it? Even Smaug is overtly aware of it. With the ring so overplayed, Gandalf seems like a bit of a dumbazz for not being a little more aware. Maybe he's just distracted.

3. With such an epic showdown taking place between Gandalf and co and Sauron, it seems kind of silly that only 60 years later Gandalf is surprised at all by anything that takes place. And it lessens the stakes of LOTR. The stakes simply should not be so high at this stage of the game. I mean, all of ME is in danger? Really? Is that what The Hobbit films ever needed to be? Why?

Again, I understand that Tolkien went through a process to figure out the connection in stories. But ultimately he recognized that they stand alone. I just don't know why Jackson needed to bridge the two stories on such an epic and wide scale, despite his clear attempt to make the Hobbit so different in tone.


(This post was edited by Bishop on Aug 31 2014, 3:45am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Aug 31 2014, 3:45am

Post #9 of 21 (1388 views)
Shortcut
Yikes! [In reply to] Can't Post

They had absolutely not be on the same battlefield! I forgot about that.

In the book, Sauron didn't appear, and Bilbo's ring was just an invisibility ring, so the question doesn't arise. But Jackson is definitely assuming it is The One Ring, and I think it was pretty clear in LotR (both book & movie) that Sauron and his minions were quite sensitive to its presence.








Aranaes
Rivendell


Aug 31 2014, 5:50am

Post #10 of 21 (1383 views)
Shortcut
I would say [In reply to] Can't Post

In answer to your questions (IMO):

1. I don't think he is at all "more defined here than in LOTR". I see it as Sauron projecting an image of his former being, or showing what he may become. He may be able to toss around a wizard at close range but his power will need to grow a lot more for world domination. I still see him as a growing mist with image-projecting capablities, far from a physical form.

2. Sauron doesn't feel it because he has not grown in power enough, nor is close enough. So far in The Hobbit movies, Gandalf has not witnessed any ring related incidents, so he doesn't look dumb yet. Who knows how, or if he learns of the ring in the last movie. Until we see it we cannot say.

3. I think the threat of all of Middle Earth being in danger was always there since the days of old, and I still think theres a big difference in the stakes in the hobbit and lotr. A Smaug/Sauron allegiance at the time of the hobbit is a potential threat, where as lotr the threat is actual and almost all hope is lost.

'And I name you elf-friend and blessed. May your shadow never grow less (or stealing would be too easy)!'


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Aug 31 2014, 6:48am

Post #11 of 21 (1358 views)
Shortcut
Ring related incidents [In reply to] Can't Post

Did Gandalf witness any "Ring-related incidents" before Bilbo's farewell party? We don't know. Apparently Bilbo confessed some things, because Gandalf was pretty familiar with it by FotR.

No matter how much Sauron has grown in power, it's hard to imaging him actually being in the presence of Bilbo wearing the Ring without reacting powerfully.








Yngwulff
Gondor


Aug 31 2014, 7:42am

Post #12 of 21 (1318 views)
Shortcut
I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

In the film to wrap up the Dol Guldur plot, but not at the BOFA

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 31 2014, 11:31am

Post #13 of 21 (1312 views)
Shortcut
I'm not sure I would interpret that in the same way. [In reply to] Can't Post

On the issue of Sauron. In TH he is a wispy cloud or flashes of imagery knocking about a ruin, whereas in LOTR he is a more fully formed eye atop a fully rebuilt tower. I think the intention is to see the latter as a clearer demonstration of strength and I would go along with that personally (which I think also links to your second point).

I wouldn't worry too much about Gandalf looking dumb. After all in the text we love him and think him wise despite the fact that he says that it was plain from the first that Bilbo's ring was a Great Ring. Now bless him that means he was only considering a pool of 20 and it still didn't click with him for several decades!

I never really go along with "lessening" arguments, myself, as I've yet to see it happen in practice (certainly it didn't for me in the texts where we have similar expressions of the importance of the events at Dol Guldur).

To connect the three, I think the intention is actually very similar to the texts, that a lesser incarnation will be defeated, and great potential evil averted, albeit not sufficiently to prevent a stronger return in LOTR (though not as strong as he would have been with a dragon ally and a northern stronghold).


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Aug 31 2014, 1:45pm

Post #14 of 21 (1275 views)
Shortcut
One of the delights of anticipation [In reply to] Can't Post

For me apart from sharing the journey with the main characters to their appointed end this is the big one for me.

I absolutely want to walk into the theatre on the first viewing having no idea how PJ deals with this but my guess/hope is that in order to be consistent with the sub created mythology is this:-

1) The white council over come the ring wraiths and aid Gandalf with caring non confrontational support from Galadriel.

2) Sauron alarmed by the mobilising of the White Council and not fully integrated or in possession of the ring withdraws. In this way his servants are not dismayed and have no sense of defeat as they pursue the battle in the north but the White Council feel they have a victory in story telling terms it is they have rescued G.

3) At some point, probably through the ring, the audience will be aware that Sauron is indeed still a threat and equally Gandalf will make it clear to the audience that he believes the threat has not been vanquished but stayed for the time being setting up the LOTR. We may even see him fleetingly in Mordor.

If Sauron were to be more than a sponsor of Azog at the BOFA I think PJ would break a fundamental sub creative rule Sauron would surely be aware of "the one" which would drive the plot off the page.

If it does work this way we will finally understand why the Nazgul where included and why Azog was kept alive as a key protagonist after the BOFDG as well as potential heroic moment for Dain.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Aug 31 2014, 1:49pm)


Bishop
Gondor


Aug 31 2014, 6:50pm

Post #15 of 21 (1189 views)
Shortcut
Further thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Perhaps I can expand on what I mean by "more defined". In LOTR Sauron is indeed at the peak of his power, an all seeing eye that controls legions. But Gandalf explains that he has not yet reached his physical form. In these new films, Sauron has both a clear physical form (first of a figure of a man, and then as his previous version walking amongst the fire), as well as a super physical presence. His smoke form seems to have mass. It exists in space, slams into walls, gets in Azog's face, and straight up assaults Gandalf with brute force. For all intents and purposes, Sauron seems closer to his physical form here then he ever did in LOTR.

2. One can certainly assume that Sauron is not powerful enough to feel the presence of the ring, or even close to that. But this is clearly not what Jackson wants us to think (or perhaps he didn't really think about it, one or the other). The film presents us with clear moments when the ring slams into the fiery eye of Sauron, effecting Bilbo which causes him to actually remove the ring in DOS. If Sauron doesn't feel anything or isn't actually connected to the ring yet, this is extremely sloppy visual storytelling. AUJ to DOS also clearly shows a corellation, as well as escalation, of the power/effect of the ring on Bilbo and Sauron's growing strength. This must necessarily resolve itself in the 3rd film. For example, Sauron may realize the ring is out there, but then have to retreat after he is weakened by his battle, thereby "untethering" him from the ring for the next 60 years. Either way, this clear ramping up of the rings power and Sauron's power still makes Gandalf seem a hair oblivious. I didn't mean to say dumb. But this is Gandalf we're talking about. When it was just a magic ring, not so overtly tied to the fate of all of ME it made sense that Gandalf didn't really care.

3. I agree totally the threat to ME was always there. This brings me back to Tolkien's decision to not drastically retrofit the Hobbit to LOTR. It must have certainly been a tough decision for Jackson to figure out what kind of films The Hobbit would be, given the fact that the stories tie together, but are different kinds of stories. I respect his decisions and I respect him as a film maker. Most of them, anyways. :) But I also have the opinion that the stakes are presented as too high (even if they WERE that high).


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 31 2014, 9:41pm

Post #16 of 21 (1151 views)
Shortcut
A couple of thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

1. I think it's actually Saruman who comments on the "physical form" which I think, whilst a number of interpretations are open, we have to take to mean a corporeal body a la the Last Alliance (head, limbs etc). Anything else doesn't really fit with LOTR or TH but given that that is a reasonable choice of interpretation I don't think it gives any issues.

2. I'm not sure the flash of Sauron's eye is meant to show any active connection on his part and certainly not that he can locate the ring. In fact FOTR establishes this as the eye flashes in Bag End but it is only after Gollum's direction that Sauron is shown to know where the ring is. As to knowing it still exists, who knows for sure but there is no reason to suppose he doesn't. Certainly he did at this stage in the text. Knowing it exists but not where it is doesn't give us any particular issue for Bilbo using it that I can think of, but equally he may not.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 1 2014, 12:08pm

Post #17 of 21 (1070 views)
Shortcut
Great discussion. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is my take on the questions you brought up:

1) Does he really have more of a physical body than in LotR? I don't think so... He just uses his bodyless form in different ways and for different purposes, imho. In the case of Gandalf he clearly wants to display himself as as powerful as possible. He does the same in LotR when he shows himself to Aragorn in his armoured form in the Palantir (though given the original plan to have Sauron at the Morannon leaves room for debate whether PJ and Co considered Sauron had reached a body form again by the time of RotK). His eye form has a lot to do with fear, power and psychology, imho. The symbol for his claim for world domination, knowing and seeing everything that moves. We know of course that while seeing and anticipating a lot, Sauron wasn't able to see and foresee quite as much as he had hoped or needed in order to succeed.

2) I agree with Spriggan here. Gandalf has not witnessed the Ring in action, yet. He also isn't aware of a big part of the Ring's history. Smaug and Bilbo feel the Ring is special (and Bilbo certainly feels it is potentially dangerous and that he shouldn't use it)... But they are directly in contact with it. The eye Bilbo sees/feels is imho a natural way to show the connection with its Master and that a part of the Dark Lord is basically in it. I never thought those flashes are meant to portray Sauron reacting at this very moment.

3) A lot of this will depend on how the showdown between the Council and Sauron will end in the third movie. Does Sauron seem to be weakened for quite a while, etc etc. I am rather sure the Council will be divided about the threat he will pose in the foreseeable future. There is more than enough room to make sense out of Gandalf's shock in FotR that Sauron is so close to victory already. To me a lot of the story in the Hobbit movies can be compared to the build up and riping of great conflicts in human history... Some of them already connected with war and battle but without developing their full devastating potential. LotR on the other hand is way beyond that point already and much more "end of the world" or "salvation" like. The stakes in LotR will remain higher imho. But what the Hobbits do, will do and imho should do is making clear that its events indeed did set those of LotR in motion and shaped them.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Sep 1 2014, 3:21pm

Post #18 of 21 (1045 views)
Shortcut
Just to pick on the suprise [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that it is very common perception that Gandalf is surprised by Sauron's return in FOTR but I can't work out why this is.
Gandalf tells Frodo, at the start of the film, a number of details about Sauron's strength and status without any surprise - he clearly knows all about it and there is no indication that that this is inormation he has newly gathered. I'm genuinely curious as to where the suprise idea comes from.


DeadRabbits
Rohan


Sep 1 2014, 3:59pm

Post #19 of 21 (1073 views)
Shortcut
I would love to see a glimpse of Annatar... [In reply to] Can't Post

... either in a flashback narrated by Galadriel or some other WC member, or during the Dol Guldur battle. I'm pretty sure we'll see "Fiery Armor Guy" again and also The Eye, but it would be cool if "Ink Blot Sauron" also could pull a stunt to show off some of his other guises, like Annatar, Werewolf and Vampire.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


Jettorex
Lorien


Sep 2 2014, 6:38pm

Post #20 of 21 (981 views)
Shortcut
He shouldn't be [In reply to] Can't Post

But not sure if Jackson could resist.


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."


My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 2 2014, 7:23pm

Post #21 of 21 (988 views)
Shortcut
Resist? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mean in the battle or the movie?

Because surely Sauron has to be in the movie unless the DG plotline would be dropped almost completely Crazy

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.


 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.