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Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 27 2014, 12:58pm
Post #1 of 20
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who is king in valinor?
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finwe dies. feanor takes his place. then maedhros, then fingolfin, and so on down to gil-galad. all of them die, just like their progenitor. eventually, all their fear get rehoused in aman.
so who rules?
the last king, the first? the most recently rehoused? is the kingship abolished, and they're all stuck with ingwe? is the kingship abolished and -- finally -- galadriel takes her rightful place as high-queen?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Aug 27 2014, 12:58pm)
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Cari
Bree
Aug 27 2014, 1:01pm
Post #2 of 20
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Ingwe is the High King of the elves, and Finarfin is king of the Noldor in Valinor.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 27 2014, 1:34pm
Post #3 of 20
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Manwe is the Elder King now and forever.
Sorry, post jumping some OT.
Cheers
Some say "Why"? - I say "Why not?"
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Wilros
The Shire
Aug 27 2014, 2:27pm
Post #4 of 20
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I would tend to agree with Cari
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Since Finarfin became King of the Noldor in Valinor, I would think he retains that title despite the reincarnation of previous kings.
An interesting thought though to have all of these former kings kicking around, it would add a different dynamic to political intrigue. If Finarfin said one thing, but Finwe said the opposite, couldn't you see it quickly degrading into splitting off of factions or even civil war? Maybe without Melkor prowling around there isn't much to disagree about...
Actually, come to think of it, the whole reincarnation thing could get pretty awkward at some of the big festivals, rubbing shoulders with all of the other elves what with the whole Kinslayings and everything:
- Telerin Elf: "Hey, you look familiar. Do I know you?"
- Noldor: "I don't know what you're talking about. I've never met you."
- Telerin Elf: "No, your face seems seared into my memory for some reason... Wait! You're the SOB that killed me at Alqualonde!! You murdered me so you could steal my boat!!"
- Noldor: *Sigh*. "That was like, 6000 years ago. Get over it."
- Telerin Elf: "Get over it? You stuck a sword through my throat and then chopped my head off!!! How am I supposed to 'get over it'?!?!"
- Noldor: "Umm, yeah. Sorry about that. Oh, look, my plate is empty. Excuse me, but I need to see if Manwe has given the OK for second helpings yet..."
(This post was edited by Wilros on Aug 27 2014, 2:28pm)
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Nerven
Rivendell
Aug 27 2014, 3:44pm
Post #5 of 20
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I would think that Ingwe is still High King of all the elves, Olwe remains King of the Teleri, Thingol is King there of the Sindar and I think that Finarfin is king of the Noldor. Finwe and Feanor are forever stayng in Mandos, some argue that Fingolfin inherts the throne when he gets released, but I donīt see that he would claim the title, after the rebellion and such, Finarfin is the one of the Noldor who is most true to the Valar and after all it is the land of the Valar, so I would guess they have some say.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 27 2014, 4:25pm
Post #6 of 20
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why would finwe and feanor stay in mandos foreber?
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why would finwe and feanor stay in mandos forever? tolkien did not indicate that.
once rehoused, there would be lots of followers with confused loyalties. i suspect that finarfin would also want to yield the kingship to finwe, his father.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Nerven
Rivendell
Aug 27 2014, 10:22pm
Post #7 of 20
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I donīt have the exact source, but thatīs one quote:
Then he died; but he had neither burial, nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.
It is stated that Feanor will remain forever in Mandos, only when Dagor Dagorath happens he is released and gives Yavannah the Silmarils. I donīt know it exactly at the moment, and donīt have the time to search for the quotes.
As for Finwe, he satays forever there because of Miriel, she leaves the halls and Finwe has to stay in Mandos, because he is not allowed to have two wifes.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 27 2014, 10:43pm
Post #8 of 20
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hi nerven : )
begging to differ.....
re feanor....your quote does +not+ state that feanor can never leave. it states that he +hasn't yet left+. very different things.
re finwe....it was ruled that miriel must stay in the halls of vaire the weaver, and not rejoin the rest of elvenkind in aman. which she did not want to do anyway. this solved the problem of finwe having two wives. since the miriel issue was taken care of, there would be no stricture on finwe leaving the halls of mandos and rejoining indis and the rest of elvenkind in aman. i would think that this is what the valar would want, because it was deemed unnatural for a fea to remain unhoused in perpetuity (which was the problem with miriel).
also, i believe your reference to the dagor dagorath is not something that is fully accepted as cannon (whatever that means, in the labyrinth of tolkien works). someone like elthir would be more familiar with that particular source. hoping he and other like, learned minds step in to elaborate.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Aug 27 2014, 10:45pm)
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Aug 28 2014, 12:13am
Post #9 of 20
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Manwe is king of the VALAR. I don't see how this relates to the elves.
"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."
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Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 28 2014, 1:08am
Post #10 of 20
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because elves live in valinor, and they have kings from among their own kind.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 28 2014, 1:30am
Post #12 of 20
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The Original Question was "who is king in valinor?"
The proper answer, to me, is Manwe! No question.
But the thread, for whatever reason, immediately took off on the Elves. So be it. Leaves more room for the speculators to hammer one-another. eh? Good discussion...
Shall we say that Manwe was the King of Kings?
Ah, whatever. 
Some say "Why"? - I say "Why not?"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 28 2014, 1:37am
Post #13 of 20
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just to say...i think it was clear in the body of my original post, that i was asking about elvenkind, not the valar....
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 28 2014, 3:48am
Post #14 of 20
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Yes, clear, thinking only of sub. line -apologies //
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Some say "Why"? - I say "Why not?"
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 28 2014, 4:53pm
Post #15 of 20
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re feanor....your [Nerven's] quote does +not+ state that feanor can never leave. it states that he +hasn't yet left+. very different things.
Technically that is so, but to my mind the strong implication from this description is that Feanor will remain in Mandos until 'who knows when' and thus arguably the 'End'...
... I stress 'from this description' as right now I can't recall all other statements about Feanor's fate. I did recall, and so looked it up, a statement in a note to the late Glorfindel texts, that the '... 'restoration' of the body could be delayed* by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.'
*author's note [note 8, Last Writings]: 'Or in gravest cases (such as that of Feanor) withheld and referred to the One.'
also, i believe your reference to the dagor dagorath is not something that is fully accepted as cannon (whatever that means, in the labyrinth of tolkien works). someone like elthir would be more familiar with that particular source. hoping he and other like, learned minds step in to elaborate.
The Second Prophecy of Mandos is not canon according to my admittedly strict definition, simply because it was never published by JRR Tolkien. But even beyond my crazed definition, this might be a bit of a muddle. Some points I would make:
A) in the Second Prophecy text as it stands in the Quenta Silmarillion [QS] of the mid to later 1930s, Feanor is not actually said to have returned from the Halls of Mandos. Again, one might assume so -- or if there is some other text or reference that states Feanor was held in Mandos until the End -- then one might easily interpret it so.
B) in the later 'cursory' revisions made to this section of QS, Tolkien has Feanor break the Silmarils, but there is still no specific indication that he has finally returned from Mandos to do this. Again, technically speaking: in other words [unless I missed something here], the text merely introduces Feanor without actually indicating exactly when he returned -- although I guess one might interpret his mere introduction here, considering the rather important and 'prophetic' matter at hand, as the revelation of his ultimate return.
C) The Second Prophecy of Mandos was rejected. I emphasize 'of Mandos' here because: C1) the Valaquenta had introduced what Mandos would say or reveal about Arda Healed [see the conclusion of QS in the constructed Silmarillon] C2) and the details of the Second Prophecy as they stood in QS [including cursory revisions and deletions I would guess] were to be re-characterized as Mannish Myth [see Morgoth's Ring].
So C doesn't necessarily mean what we have in QS was rejected by Tolkien, but I argue that it does mean that what we have was no longer to be delivered as a Prophecy from Mandos -- and so Christopher Tolkien did not include the Second Prophecy of Mandos in the 1977 Silmarillion -- he rather used the Valaquenta statement to conclude QS.
There is at least one more text I'll note, despite that there is plenty more that could be noted here, including references from The Lord of the Rings itself!
D) in a note to a late text [1968 or later] Tolkien will put a prophecy concerning Turin's return [part of the Second Prophecy from the mid to later 1930s QS] into the mouth of Andreth the Wise woman, where Turin will return not at the Last Battle but during the Great War with Morgoth at the end of the First Age.
This note to The Problem Of Ros is later than the Valaquenta, the Athrabeth, and various other references. So for me the question arises: what about the 'Feanor' part and the healing of Arda? Rejected? Simply not dealt with here? If Turin isn't really returning in an 'End of Times' setting is there going to be a statement of renewal to conclude QS, even if delivered or imagined as a Mannish Myth?
Is Turin going to return, even according to prophecy, a second time? That much seems unlikely to me. Ragnarok has a renewal of its own, but Tolkien doesn't need to follow his Norse inspiration here, or if he desires to, he can do so in various ways. There are statements in The Lord of the Rings that suggest Arda will be healed, and there are references to Arda Healed in the Athrabeth and notes.
So is the Second Prophecy canon no matter what it says about Feanor? Was Tolkien going to revise the actual wording once again, given his re-characterizaion of the idea as Mannish Myth? Why am I asking so many questions?
Or did JRRT just drop the Feanor section altogether, putting the Turin prophecy part into the mouth of the mortal Andreth [makes sense to me] -- possibly intending to deal with Arda Healed/Feanor/Silmarils not in her prophecy, nor in any mannish myth, but in an Appendix to The Silmarillion...
... maybe titled Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth?
Hmm 
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 28 2014, 5:03pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 28 2014, 5:39pm
Post #16 of 20
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'As three great jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Feanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made...'
There's another description for consideration. See chapter 7 of the constructed Silmarillion. I didn't look up its textual history in HME.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Aug 28 2014, 6:55pm
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'As three great jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Feanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made...'
There's another description for consideration. See chapter 7 of the constructed Silmarillion. I didn't look up its textual history in HME.
With a couple of phrases taken from taken from LQ §49b.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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ruscenedhir
Registered User
Sep 4 2014, 3:20am
Post #18 of 20
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re finwe....it was ruled that miriel must stay in the halls of vaire the weaver, and not rejoin the rest of elvenkind in aman. which she did not want to do anyway. this solved the problem of finwe having two wives. since the miriel issue was taken care of, there would be no stricture on finwe leaving the halls of mandos and rejoining indis and the rest of elvenkind in aman. i would think that this is what the valar would want, because it was deemed unnatural for a fea to remain unhoused in perpetuity (which was the problem with miriel).
According to HOME, Miriel's fea left her body in Lorien and went to the Halls of Mandos. Finwe wanted to remarry and was granted it because she agreed to never leave the Halls of Mandos. When Finwe died, they met in the Halls of Mandos and he sacrificed his re-embodiment so that Miriel could enjoy life. She then did not assimilate with the other Eldar but stayed with Vaire weaving. Finwe is allowed to look upon the weavings occasionally. There is no indication that I can remember of Miriel dying and allowing Finwe to reincarnate.
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PhantomS
Rohan
Sep 10 2014, 11:30pm
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Thingol , he who laughs at beards
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Thingol would be co-king of the Teleri with Olwe , as that was how they ruled back in the earliest days. The 'Sindar' do not exist in the Undying Lands as all Elves there have made the journey to leave Middle Earth.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 11 2014, 3:51am
Post #20 of 20
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'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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