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Is Anduril meant for show? The sword itself seems way too
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Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 19 2014, 10:08pm

Post #1 of 31 (5376 views)
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Is Anduril meant for show? The sword itself seems way too Can't Post

long and thin to be very effective or sturdy. It looks like it would snap in half upon striking. Now, it may have "elven smithing" skill which makes it very tough, it remains unwieldy in appearance..especially for close quarters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p5zm-9NCh4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p5zm-9NCh4
An expert long sword discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHIhMBCOc1A
These look sturdier..wider.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 19 2014, 10:12pm)


Meneldor
Valinor


Aug 19 2014, 10:47pm

Post #2 of 31 (5097 views)
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Anduril looks longer than Strider's "ranger" sword, [In reply to] Can't Post

but not enough to make it unwieldy. Normal sized people can use 6 foot long swords effectively. If you google greatsword or zweihander you can find lots of info on them. I have a 5 foot long greatsword which is quite manageable, and I've gone into reenactment battles with a 5 foot long wooden sword. I'm the crusader with the blue crossed tabard; you can see my sword resting with the point on the ground in my right hand during a pause in the battle.

And if you watch Braveheart, you can see Mel Gibson as William Wallace fighting ferociously with a 2 hand claymore.
As for close quarters combat, some effective techniques are pommel strikes, jabs with the crossguard, and halfswording. That last one means you hold the grip in one hand and the middle of the blade with the other hand, choking up on it for powerful stabs. No, that won't cause you to slice off your own fingers. Medieval swords were usually sharpened to a "chisel" edge, not a razor edge, because razor edges are instantly ruined when they strike armor, and even if they were sharpened more than that, the sharpest part of the blade would be the point and the first foot or so of the edges next to the point.
It doesn't look like a thin blade to me, but I'm used to rapiers, so my opinions on long thin swords may be suspect. Anyway, if I had to go into a real battle, I'd be happy to use Anduril.
That last video is fun. I miss doing that kind of stuff. It's just like they showed it, fighting hard, then hugging and laughing with your opponent when it's over. Good times. :D


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 19 2014, 11:44pm

Post #3 of 31 (5052 views)
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Very cool..(except on hot days!) [In reply to] Can't Post

Your long sword seems sturdier. To me, Anduril just looks long and very thin, especially near the point...not sure if it is meaty enough for striking but it does have a thrusting point. I think his ranger sword is much more of a fighting sword. I think even Viggo, when he is holding both appears more comfortable with the ranger sword, obviously he used it more often, but I also think the length may have been a factor.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 19 2014, 11:44pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Aug 20 2014, 12:20am

Post #4 of 31 (5049 views)
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I'm the crusader with the blue crossed tabard; [In reply to] Can't Post

You sure there's not a Beorning under that tabard? You're big enough. Had any Hobbits run between your legs lately?

** Bracegirdle the Wimp dives for cover ** Unsure

“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."


Meneldor
Valinor


Aug 20 2014, 12:48am

Post #5 of 31 (5029 views)
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Shoot, I'm one of the little guys on the list field. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm less than 6', and I've been up against guys around 6'8". The SCA attracts gorillas and mutants.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Aug 20 2014, 2:55am

Post #6 of 31 (5044 views)
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The blade for Anduril is fine and realistically feasible when comparing it to historical examples for the concerns you state. [In reply to] Can't Post

In some respects it's blades cross section is very similar to a historical example known as Xa.1. Xa.1 is unique as far as I know, but it is likely or at least possible there are other examples that I don't know about. The blade has a fuller and either side of this the blade is hollow ground and it is this combination that makes it rare or unique as far as surviving examples are concerned. Anduril transitions to an approximate diamond profile at the lower third toward the point so this also makes that area very sturdy. I have held for all intents and purposes a replica of Xa.1 designed by someone that has documented the sword thoroughly and although it's blade is a moderately shorter than Anduril's blade, it is also generally not as wide as Anduril's and proportionately the length and width of each is similar. There are also numerous examples of thrusting swords as well as cut and thrust swords that have significantly narrower blades and points than Anduril's. Anduril's blade is of course over designed as it is a prop made to look good on screen, but if you were to extrapolate a functional design based on the movie version we have, it would be a very sturdy blade.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Aug 20 2014, 3:01am)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 20 2014, 5:17am

Post #7 of 31 (5044 views)
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Such long swords seem to have specialized use against pikes [In reply to] Can't Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidenhänder


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 20 2014, 5:18am)


Tigero
Rivendell


Aug 20 2014, 7:45pm

Post #8 of 31 (4971 views)
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Doesn't look unwieldy and weak to my eye [In reply to] Can't Post

The length is just about right for a crusade-age greatsword and it has lots of mass on the bottom end for balance, also the hilt is quite massive for lots of leverage. The crossguard is too big for comfort tho. It needs no 'elven smithing' to endure a fight. There are examples of waaaaay more thinner longswords with as little as a third of the maximum width at foible, they were designed to pierce through mail but of course they had to withstand cuts, too. The Anduril very closely resembles a reneissance-time sword, more specifically an oakeshott XVIIIb. Here's and historical example: http://www.myarmoury.com/...pic_spotxviii18.jpg# That one is also engraved with text and finished with extreme precision and finesse. Maybe it was made by the elves?

Pessimists have no disappointments.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Aug 21 2014, 12:43am

Post #9 of 31 (4959 views)
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the example you give has a diamond cross section [In reply to] Can't Post

totally different to Anduril, so it is a lot stiffer, even more so relatively speaking when considering it is much thinner in profile.


Tigero
Rivendell


Aug 21 2014, 7:05pm

Post #10 of 31 (4928 views)
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Details... [In reply to] Can't Post

My point was that Anduril, as almost every sword in LOTR is a completely feasible weapon.

But looking at details, if my eyes don't fool me, the Anduril has a pretty sweet profile that is optimized for both cuts and stabs, a hollow-ground midsection with fuller, yet the tip is of diamond-section. The hollow-grind with fuller has optimum cutting abilities and is extremely rigid sideways, while the slimmer diamond-section tip provides more penetration and rigidity in stabs.

I'm pretty sure that there is no historcal example of a blade of such finesse, especially that long (would be an absolute pain to sharpen) although some hollow-grinds dated to late middle ages do exist but the design is completely realistic in the context.

Pessimists have no disappointments.


Tigero
Rivendell


Aug 21 2014, 7:16pm

Post #11 of 31 (4931 views)
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Oh and of the 'unwieldiness' and 'snapping in half' [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.youtube.com/...0Y62tWOLPzfe5f0Io5ng

Some techniques used on that video are with a 5cm longer yet 250g lighter (140cm/2kg sword than the swordmasters' Anduril replica, so a really close match. I guess that the speediest techniques are with a 1.7kg counterpart. Now that is not yet sparring, but the same techniques when executed with such force and precision as they do will work on an actual fight, although you must adapt to your opponent in the blink of an eye if something goes unexpectedly.

P.S. Yes i know they are of modern steel and designed for a beating but still. Sparks. Just trying to debunk a misconception.

Pessimists have no disappointments.

(This post was edited by Tigero on Aug 21 2014, 7:18pm)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 21 2014, 7:29pm

Post #12 of 31 (4919 views)
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That sparring looks dangerous but it is informative on the [In reply to] Can't Post

practical approach for such a sword. If such long swords
were designed for use against pikes and or long thrusts, I could see the use against some Orc formations. When Aragorn fights the troll at the Black Gate, a long plunging thrust would have been his best attempt at a kill shot. Though, I wonder if the sword would have been lost upon the troll falling and or snapping.

With the Olag Hai armor...a nech shot was best.
http://www.jplegacy.org/...48&pictureid=396


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 21 2014, 7:32pm)


Tigero
Rivendell


Aug 21 2014, 7:44pm

Post #13 of 31 (4915 views)
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The guys on the video are brutally skilled [In reply to] Can't Post

And prolly a set technique drill is child's play to them.

I don't have aknowledge on where and why were greatswords used in war, if they even were. The longsword is best suited for one on on, unarmoured combat. In the heat of battle you really need to have either good armor or a longer weapon than your opponent or a shield.

You reminded me of one awesome detail on FOTR with your comment! See, this fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icQ9m4Qe0Gk
This is propably the most realistic duel in LOTR i can think (at this very moment)

Firstly, the fight is downright dirty, grappling, hitting shields and knives and stuff flying around.

Secondly, the opponent is actually an worthy opponent, not just a target.

Thirdly, it shows very realistically how an opponent (especially an orc) reacts to a strike. Lurtz won't go down from Aragorn's close-combat dagger strike to leg, obviously he doesn't he's an orc and who would die instantly to a leg wound anyway. Then even as Aragorn smote his arm off he doesn't die, why would he? And it sure was a good thing aragorn smote his arm off, as now as he decides to slightly foolishly pierce through him, his sword gets stuck and that is _exactly_ what happens IRL with a powerful stab and what you have to worry about because if your opponent still has his weapon arm on, he will strike down your head! Lucky for Aragorn Lurtz is in pretty bad shape and they have a last stare before Aragorn actually kills him with awesome decapitation action! Wink

About the troll fight... I'm pretty sure that Aragorn would have been finished with even the best circumstances without some hobbit action taking place... Tongue

Pessimists have no disappointments.

(This post was edited by Tigero on Aug 21 2014, 7:45pm)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 21 2014, 8:23pm

Post #14 of 31 (4907 views)
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Some good info [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.worksofrichardmarsden.com/...ryofthelongsword.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Aug 21 2014, 9:11pm

Post #15 of 31 (4899 views)
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Xa.1 has a blade that is more complex than this, but it is the only example I know of like this [In reply to] Can't Post

The replica of it I have handled is light years ahead of anything else I have ever experienced, and this includes many other very fine handling weapons. But they all feel like bricks compared to the design based on Xa.1


Meneldor
Valinor


Aug 22 2014, 3:02am

Post #16 of 31 (4906 views)
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Good summary of Fiore. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I studied and practiced Fiore for several years in a group called Schola St George, which was created especially to research Fiore's fighting books.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Meneldor
Valinor


Aug 27 2014, 12:45am

Post #17 of 31 (4874 views)
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This just popped up on my FB page. [In reply to] Can't Post

The artwork seems to be from one of the 14th century Fiore manuscripts and demonstrates one of the better up-close attacks with the longsword.

Fiore promised an unarmored opponent would lose at least 4 teeth if this technique is used properly. Ain't history fun? Cool


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 27 2014, 2:58am

Post #18 of 31 (4853 views)
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Cool! Early "martial arts" training. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Aug 27 2014, 3:54am

Post #19 of 31 (4852 views)
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love it [In reply to] Can't Post

but not as much as the murder stroke.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 27 2014, 8:48pm

Post #20 of 31 (4849 views)
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One common fight scene that irks me is seeing a blade strike [In reply to] Can't Post

in a slashing move across a well protected foe...be it chain mail or plate..and the foe drops as if cut. In most of the actual fighting scenes, against well armored Orcs, a spear, mace or hammer would have been more useful. A sword must be placed into weak protection spots for any penetration unless it is used as a club. Too many Gondorian knights fell from weak strikes. The Gondorian troops come across as rather poor fighters, despite their gear, and only the Rohirrim seem up to the task, which is an unfortunate film theme.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 27 2014, 8:52pm)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Aug 28 2014, 1:29am

Post #21 of 31 (4832 views)
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yes indeed, that and the sound of metal on metal when a sword is removed from it's scabbard [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 28 2014, 2:09am

Post #22 of 31 (4830 views)
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History is great!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

When you start learning about the 'real' Middle Ages that were romanticised and sanitised for us as children.... Yeah, it's pretty brutal and occasionally hilarious, in a macabre sort of way.

It reminds me of my Sensei's explanations of the martial art techniques' origins..

"Yes, and this technique was originally meant to disable to opponent by hyper-extending and shattering their elbow. Now, we don't want any shattered elbows, so we are going to do it this way...Pair up!!!!" Laugh

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 28 2014, 3:22am

Post #23 of 31 (4834 views)
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Ahh, you touch on an interesting topic... [In reply to] Can't Post

so much of the actual bunkai or whatever term you art uses has been lost to history and so modern practioners have been trying to rediscover the actual purpose. Sometimes, it proves to be off the mark etc. At least with the old fencing manuals you have an illustration that at least shows a stop frame image. In many martial arts, the verbal transmission has either been lost or deliberately conveyed in partial disclosure (I am thinking of karate in particular)...the Okinawans were not keen on revealing everything to the Japanese mainlanders and other foreigners...US occupation troops etc. I switched to my dojo's Krav Maga program after getting to 2nd brown in Shotokan. Krav is all application based so for me, it was more useful. Of course, there is cross over and the karate years were helpful.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 28 2014, 3:25am)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 28 2014, 6:00pm

Post #24 of 31 (4812 views)
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Yes, interpretations can vary so much... [In reply to] Can't Post

I took a few fencing classes, and among the more experienced fencers there were more than one disagreements on the 'proper' way to preform the techniques from the Italian manuals. Those snap-shots were more troublesome than you think, and I saw as many variations demonstrated as there were opinions. Of course, much of that was due to the general lack of fluent Italian speakers!! Tongue

I'm currently training Aikido, and we refer to the techniques as 'waza'. Sensei is always stressing safety in the dojo, but gently hinting at the fact that if need be, some of our techniques create openings for some pretty viscous counters or preemptive strikes to our opponent.

Ah, I've seen a bit of Krav Maga training and it looked intense!! (That was an understatement!!Laugh) I'm glad that you seem to enjoy it! One question though. Does it have a ranking system of any kind?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Eruonen
Half-elven


Aug 28 2014, 6:32pm

Post #25 of 31 (4811 views)
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We advance through levels, so in a sense, yes but not [In reply to] Can't Post

a belt system. We learn a curriculum over a year or so and then have a test where you demonstrate various moves - some are by yourself and others are partner drills and then there is a pressure test....the last one was 5 minutes...combination of responding to multiple attackers...strikes, kicks and ground work...with energy draining exercise interspersed...burpees, push ups etc.
Of course, we have to hold back as well to avoid injury. We wear protective gear...mouth guard, helmets, leg protectors etc. for the sparring, but still, getting hit too hard will be felt. And, we have to be careful with neck moves and any other potentially dangerous application. As in any class, some people have to be reminded...go 50% etc.

Akido always looked like a very good art with its more defensive approach which transforms the attack back onto the aggressor (correct?).


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Aug 28 2014, 6:34pm)

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