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not all who are blond are vanyar.... or did some vanyar go into exile

Maciliel
Valinor


Aug 27 2014, 12:50pm

Post #1 of 24 (1906 views)
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not all who are blond are vanyar.... or did some vanyar go into exile Can't Post

 
there's a passage in fellowship, which describes the company navigating a rope bridge, made by haldir and his group, over a river. a slip of a description refers to an elf on the opposite bank, who had golden hair, glinting in the sun.

now we've often spoken of the physical appearances of the vanyar, noldor, and teleri. it's maintained that blonde hair belonged to the vanyar, or a noldo who claimed descent from finarfin (whose mother was indis, of the vanyar).

here we have a lothlorien elf, who is most definitely blonde. is he a grand-nephew of galadriel? or is he a vanya, or descendant of an exiled vanya (like elenwe)?

---- or ---

is it just a generality that vanyar are blonde, and noldor are brunette? like.... most swedes are blonde? most afghanis have brown eyes?

this genetic absolutism has always bothered me.

cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 27 2014, 4:39pm

Post #2 of 24 (1755 views)
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mostly nearly [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien noted [Quendi And Eldar] that the Vanyar were nearly all yellow or golden-haired, thus not all of them in my opinion. The line is...

'The name referred to the hair of the Minyar, which was in nearly all members of the clan yellow or deep golden. This was regarded as a beautiful feature by the Noldor (who loved gold), though they were themselves mostly dark-haired.'

But the Vanyar are never referred to by name in The Lord of the Rings, and technically the East-elves of Lorien are not considered Eldar according to this source [The Lord of the Rings]. Thus, even more technically perhaps, the statement about the House of Finarfin refers to the Eldar but not to the East-elves of Lorien, who are not Eldar.

It can get complicated.

In any case I think the line in Appendix F [On Translation] with respect to the golden house of Finarfin is more of a generality, as Indis was a Fingolfinian for example. Of course, according to that line, published by JRRT himself, the Vanyar being Eldar should be mostly dark-haired!

Yes... I said it Cool


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 27 2014, 4:51pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Aug 27 2014, 11:03pm

Post #3 of 24 (1712 views)
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mostly and finally [In reply to] Can't Post

 
finally someone expresses a kindred thought.

i have always thought it a bit of genetic extremism to say +all+ the noldor are dark-haired and +all+ the vanyar are blonde. much more likely that these are prevalences.

as for our mystery lothlorien blonde, even if the vanyar are not named in lotr, thinking that they exist in that universe is sound. even though tolkien never got to publish his definitive silmlarillion in his lifetime, there are many things that are so consistent in his writings that we may draw cannon or cannon-ish determinations from them. i think it's safe to say that frodo inhabited the same universe as did the vanyar, but if someone wants to be super-strict and reduce cannon to what was published by tolkien in his lifetime, i suppose that is a choice.

mystery elf as a blonde noldo
are there some noldor living in lothlorien? i think it likely. galadriel had her own following, and at least some of these would have remained with her out of loyalty, rather than going to live with cirdan or elrond.

mystery elf as a blonde vanya
or, he could be a vanya. the noldor and the vanyar did intermarry, and it doesn't seem so rare; otherwise, it might have been revealed to be so when describing the union of findis and finwe. and elenwe's identity as a vanya was mentioned as a throwaway bit of data, in reference to her as turgon's wife. so it is entirely plausible that there were other vanya-noldo pairings. perhaps this mystery elf was an vanya who accompanied his noldo wife into exile. or perhaps he was a descendant of such a union.

mystery elf as a blonde sinda or silvan elf
mostly dark, but perhaps not as a rule. perhaps this fellow was a golden-headed rustic.

btw... why would you cast indis as a fingolfinian? he was her son, not her husband or father. regardless, i would think it entirely possible that fingolfin's descendants could also crop up with golden hair, through their genetic link to indis.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Aug 27 2014, 11:03pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 28 2014, 12:12am

Post #4 of 24 (1710 views)
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Heheh... I meant Idril rather than Indis there [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But the Vanyar are never referred to by name in The Lord of the Rings, and technically the East-elves of Lorien are not considered Eldar according to this source [The Lord of the Rings]. Thus, even more technically perhaps, the statement about the House of Finarfin refers to the Eldar but not to the East-elves of Lorien, who are not Eldar.




Perhaps this is better explained in a different format: again According to The Lord of the Rings


The Eldar are dark-haired, grey-eyed, save for the House of Finarfin [Appendix F, II]. The East-elves of Lorien are not Eldar [Appendix F, I and II], thus golden-haired Elves among them is arguably not problematic.

In this book no word Vanyar is noted, but the Eldar are said to be those Elves who passed Over Sea upon the Great Journey, plus the Sindar only. The Sindar are certainly Eldar, and the Vanyar too [as Eldar] appear to be included in the dark-haired, grey-eyed description, even if not named, thus Christopher Tolkien's objection to this statement in Appendix F.


So even if we stick to this source only, we have a light-haired or golden-haired Elda...


A) who is of the House of Finarfin: Galadriel [agrees with Appendix F]


B) who may or may not be of the House of Finarfin: Glorfindel* [not necessarily problematic with Appendix F]


C) who is not of the House of Finarfin: the silver-haired Celeborn -- and if we argue that he had 'dark' silver hair, we also have, by default in a sense from earlier writing in The Hobbit, Thranduil as the golden-haired Sindarin [thus Eldarin] Elven-king. Cirdan aside for the moment.


[I know that according to a late text Amroth is Sindarin and also golden-haired, but I can't recall at the moment what is or is not noted about him in The Lord of the Rings itself]


In short, we appear to have an exception or exceptions among the Eldar even if we stick to what JRRT himself published. And sticking to that, golden hair among the East-elves is arguably not problematic, but the implication is that the Vanyar should be mostly dark-haired.

Other texts

And if we play with the definition of Eldar from texts never published by JRRT [as in The Silmarillion], things change for the East-elves of Lorien! As they are Telerin Nandor according to a late text [in the earlier text Quendi And Eldar they are possibly mixed with some Avarin Elves too], and so are at least Eldar 'in origin', if at some points hardly distinguishable from Avari in their silvan homes.

And as we know, according to posthumously published texts like Quendi And Eldar, the Eldarin Vanyar were 'nearly' all golden or yellow-haired, which appears to conflict with already published text [Appendix F].

Author published

For myself, I do reduce canon to what Tolkien published in his lifetime, but that doesn't mean I reduce my Middle-earth to only that. I accept that the Vanyar are part of Frodo's world, and I think it's quite possible (at least) that Appendix F refers to the Eldar of Middle-earth, since the Vanyar had left Middle-earth so very long ago [and the Sindar resemble the Noldor even according to posthumously published description]...

... but one reason I point this out is, we as readers are still really only guessing at how Tolkien would approach an arguable inconsistency. Christopher Tolkien thinks this is an inconsistency, so what idea should prevail? Most folks would likely argue that Tolkien clearly desired the Vanyar to be mostly yellow or golden-haired... but in the end, for all we know, JRRT would have chosen the exact same reaction to the golden Vanyar as he had to the new idea of Beorian word ros: that is, he decided to stick with the thing already published, and the 'private' text [to him] is the one that fails.

Another reason to note this is to argue that the golden haired Elf of Lorien is not in itself necessarily inconsistent with The Lord of the Rings, as he can easily be an non-Eldarin East-elf -- their general hair colour not being noted in this book. Again [but not that you said otherwise], if Tolkien is to be praised for his consistent world-building, then in my opinion a 'true inconsistency' should hardly include private draft papers, where inconsistencies are not only bound to occur, but are not unexpected as the natural result of writing.

So I just like to point this kind of thing out, as often enough the descriptions get muddled on the web and Tolkien appears more inconsistent than he really is.


__________

* I believe some guides to Middle-earth, or at least one, speculate that Glorfindel might be of the House of Finarfin, due to his hair colour and the statement in Appendix F. In a late text Tolkien notes that Glorfindel is Noldorin with some sort of 'kinship' to Turgon -- which text was not published by JRRT in his lifetime in any case, and so such information would not be available to certain guides.


squire
Half-elven


Aug 28 2014, 12:56am

Post #5 of 24 (1704 views)
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Swagger it, my little cock-a-whoop! [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, I agree.

We are the chorus, and we agree. We agree, we agree, we agree.

PS This means I am completely lost in this discussion but I appreciate the obvious erudition. My Favorite Silmarillion elf is still Finwhale Fingerpull.



squire online:
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Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 28 2014, 12:58am

Post #6 of 24 (1701 views)
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PS on Appendix F [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way... for the Silmarillion CJRT altered a description of Celegorm's fair hair due to Appendix F. Of course Celegorm is Noldorin and just one Elf [and I'm not sure the reference to his hair was notably late in any case -- possibly the 1930s?]... but still.

I mean in theory he could have chosen to go with Appendix F and left out mentions that the Vanyar were generally golden-haired. I'm not saying he 'should' have, but he could have. I think Appendix F allows for exceptions even outside of Nos Finarfin in any case, although if a given Elf is not desribed, I go with the default information...

... as I call it.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 28 2014, 1:21am

Post #7 of 24 (1686 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

To add, arguably I have thought too much about Elven hair colour in the past ten years... on second thought, nah... I haven't thought about it nearly enough!

I only wish we knew more about length and styles!


Maciliel
Valinor


Aug 28 2014, 1:40am

Post #8 of 24 (1678 views)
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you know... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
you know.... it has always bugged me a little that tolkien never mentions green eyes. he drew a lot of inspiration from germanic sources.... germanic peoples have the highest concentration of green eyes in the world.

well, i suppose he does mention green eyes, as in gollum (and treebeard?), but it's not quite what i was thinking.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 28 2014, 1:45am

Post #9 of 24 (1693 views)
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However .... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Celegorm is still referred to as “Celegorm the fair” in chapter 5 ([Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië):

Quote
The seven sons of Fëanor were Maedhros the tall; Maglor the mighty singer, whose voice was heard far over land and sea; Celegorm the fair, and Caranthir the dark; Curufin the crafty, who inherited most his father's skill of hand; and the youngest Amrod and Amras, who were twin brothers, alike in mood and face. In later days they were great hunters in the woods of Middle-earth; and a hunter also was Celegorm, who in Valinor was a friend of Oromë, and often followed the Vala's horn


Of course, "fair" could mean "beautiful" but I believe the reference here was meant (at least originally by Tolkien) to describe his hair color.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 28 2014, 11:00am

Post #10 of 24 (1671 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

Which race had naturally curly hair? Were ponytails for royalty, or hippies? Isn't long hair a disadvantage in war, or does the military lie about the need for crewcuts? Isn't Legolas' hair in the movie just wrong for combat?

Did men part their hair on the right side or the left, and did they have balding issues over the millenia? Was the real "fading" in Middle-earth due to hair loss? Ungoliant never got around to killing Rogainen, the Tree of Eternal Hair Growth, and only in Valinor was it found.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 28 2014, 11:50am

Post #11 of 24 (1682 views)
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Blond orcs? [In reply to] Can't Post

If orcs came from Elves, did they keep the same hair color after their transformation? Are there orcs with blond and silver hair? Do they wear curlers at night?

I think the movies were hairist in showing all the orcs with black, stringy hair, as if a guy couldn't get a decent coiffure in Moria or Barad-dur. And what about punk orcs, who had pink mohawks? (You gotta admit, with all that other black stuff orcs wear, they look rather gothic or punkish. Now don't get me started on emo orcs.)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 28 2014, 1:23pm

Post #12 of 24 (1663 views)
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Celegorm [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Of course, "fair" could mean "beautiful" but I believe the reference here was meant (at least originally by Tolkien) to describe his hair color.



He certainly had golden, gleaming hair in certain texts.

'Then Celegorm arose amid the throng (p. 169). In QS this is followed by 'golden was his long hair'. In the Lay at this point (line 1844) Celegorm had 'gleaming hair', his Old English name was Cynrgrim Faegerfeax ('Fair hair') IV. 213. The phrase was removed in The Silmarillion text on account of the dark hair of the Noldorin princes other than 'in the golden house of Finarfin' (see I. 44); but he remains 'Celegorm the fair' in The Silmarillion p. 60.' Christopher Tolkien, The Lost Road And Other Writings, commentary, 299-300.

And (without checking) the reference to 'I. 44' must be his commentary about the Appendix F description -- and just to add to the thread, Tolkien revised this specific description in Appendix F in the 1960s, revising Finrod to Finarfin at least, and still did not alter the implication that the line refers to the Eldar [thus the Vanyar], not just the Noldor -- as it once had in draft writing.

Did Tolkien again miss this implication of dark-haired 'Vanyar' in the revisions for the second edition? Maybe.

Maybe not Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 28 2014, 1:33pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 28 2014, 1:59pm

Post #13 of 24 (1648 views)
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I have no key for ĉsc [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, that should be spelled Cynegrim Fĉgerfeax.


Meneldor
Valinor


Aug 28 2014, 3:23pm

Post #14 of 24 (1640 views)
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Don't pity the emo orcs. [In reply to] Can't Post

They thrive on pity.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 28 2014, 8:30pm

Post #15 of 24 (1663 views)
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were there bald eagles in the misty mountains? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Did men part their hair on the right side or the left, and did they have balding issues over the millenia?



I doubt Elves had this problem: I would say their hair remained in the memory of the fea, even after bodily fading.

Actually, and somewhat seriously, Tolkien once noted that Dwarves did not go bald... I think this was noted in drafts for Appendix A... it didn't make it into the author-published accounts anyway...

... but I still believe it.


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Aug 29 2014, 7:00pm

Post #16 of 24 (1609 views)
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Well, were their any bald elves? [In reply to] Can't Post

Since they aged very slowly, would balding be something found among Elves? What about graying? Cirdan is the only one listed as having a beard, but none are ever described as being bald...


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 29 2014, 8:08pm

Post #17 of 24 (1601 views)
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I don't imagine any bald Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

Cirdan was described as 'grey and old' in the Grey Havens. Grey as in...?

In any case Tolkien explained Cirdan’s hair as being silver (in WJ), andThingol Greycloak had long hair ’of silver hue’ -- also described as grey silver in The Grey Annals, for example.

Tolkien liked grey Smile


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 29 2014, 8:14pm

Post #18 of 24 (1600 views)
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oh and beards [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps recalling that Cirdan was bearded, Tolkien once wrote...

'Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel’s father was exceptional, being only early in his second' JRRT, published in Vinyar Tengwar 41

So we can add Nerdanel's father too. This note is associated with The Shibboleth of Feanor, so it's fairly late [1968 or later], although possibly not as late as certain text printed in Unfinished Tales about beardlessness -- which at least seems to forget about Cirdan... and Nerdanel's father...

... although perhaps this very late remark was intended more generally.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 29 2014, 9:14pm

Post #19 of 24 (1620 views)
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I don't believe anyone was bald in Middle-earth. [In reply to] Can't Post

This means something.

******************************************
Buri-Ghân-Ghân Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Ghân-Ghân Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Ghân-Ghân Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Oh you Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân we love you.
And our Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân loves us too.
East, west, anywhere we go, on Buri-Ghân we depend
Ghân-Ghân-Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Our fine Drúedainic friend!
Ghân-Ghân-Buri-Buri-Ghân-Ghân
Our fine Drúedainic friend!!


Laineth
Lorien

Sep 3 2014, 8:41pm

Post #20 of 24 (1567 views)
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LotR [In reply to] Can't Post

Definitely. In LotR we have both Nimrodel and our almost-certain-Silvan mystery elf with blonde hair:


Quote
"A star was bound upon her brows,
A light was on her hair
As sun upon the golden boughs
In Lorien the fair." - Lothlorien

and:

There is one of my people yonder across the stream," [Haldir] [..] gave a call like the low whistle of a bird, and out of a thicket of young trees an Elf stepped, clad in grey, but with his hood thrown back; his hair glinted like gold in the morning sun. - Lothlorien


As means "in the same manner or way that" Like means "possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to."

So Nimrodel's hair is said to be the same as the sun hitting the golden leaves, and mystery-elf's hair shines similarly to gold in the sun. Personally, I think this makes a strong case for blonde Silvan elves.

As for Amroth, the only line that I know of is in UT: The mariners with their Elvish sight for a long time could see him battling with the waves, until the rising sun gleamed through the clouds and far off lit his bright hair like a spark of gold. - (Galadriel and Celeborn)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 3 2014, 9:27pm

Post #21 of 24 (1567 views)
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Excellent references--thanks // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Valinor


Sep 4 2014, 2:35am

Post #22 of 24 (1569 views)
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or noldor / sindar / silvan elves who dyed their hair? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
someone (in this thread?) mentioned referenced something that indicated the noldor admired blonde hair because it was reminiscent of gold, which they also admired and liked to shape.

the noldor were the crafty elves.... where does their craft end? would they dye their hair? wear make up? i jest, but at the same time, they are not immune to wanting to beautify themselves through adornment (gems, cloth, etc.).

and where are the elves with green eyes, for varda's sake?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 4 2014, 12:58pm

Post #23 of 24 (1561 views)
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thanks Laineth [In reply to] Can't Post

Those were both the references I was thinking of (the late one being the one found in Unfinished Tales], except I couldn't remember if the golden description in the poem (at the time not recalling the specific wording) referred to Amroth or Nimrodel.

That said I'm not sure I can agree that a couple of golden haired Silvan Elves makes a strong case for the Wood Elves in general. If we looked at some individual cases of golden-haired Eldar [excluding the House of Finarfin and the enigmatic Glorfindel for now], or arguably light haired Eldar -- Idril, Amroth, Thranduil, Celeborn -- we might think we did not have the Eldar being generally: '... tall, fair of skin, and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin...' The Return of the King, Appendix F

The other problem is the posthumously published definition of Eldar, which would then arguably include the Telerin 'Eldar' who became the Silvan Elves of Lorien and Mirkwood (although in one late text at least, Tolkien refers to them as Eldar 'in origin', interestingly). As I say, one could arguably choose the author-published text here, in my opinion.

Also in the posthumously published description of the Three Clans, golden hair appears to be notable among the First Clan or Vanyar, who were the smallest clan, contributed no Avari, named for their hair, and all passed Over Sea very early in history. We might expect some possible intermarriage among the Noldor then, and Tolkien notes this in Quendi And Eldar to explain some golden hair among the Noldor.

But the lagging groups of Teleri would appear to be mostly dark-haired in my opinion. Or if not, why should the Vanyar be so notably yellow or golden-haired as to actually be named for this, if among the much larger Telerin clan there were plenty of golden haired Elves as well? Well, that's what I would ask myself anyway.

Of course we seem to run into these golden-haired Silvan folk [or seemingly Silvan] in The lord of the Rings, as you note. I'm okay with exceptions to the general rule; or as I say, even raising the matter of Appendix F not including these Silvan Elves. And if they are considered exceptions, perhaps a golden or golden-reflected light might be part of a description too good to pass up for a Hobbit writing his adventures (meaning he will note this where it occurs, not invent it) ...

... or a philologist in Oxford translating those same adventures with a little flair of his own, perhaps Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 4 2014, 1:08pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Sep 12 2014, 8:10pm

Post #24 of 24 (1553 views)
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Hi! [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right about the Vanyar. My comment was motivated by past experiences where people have insisted that there are no exceptions, and that it's not possible for some Teleri/Silvan elves to be blonde without contradicting the other statements.

 
 

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