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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 22 2014, 8:08pm
Post #1 of 34
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Chapter of the Week: The High Fells
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Ok so it's the High Fells this week. I haven't had all that long to prepare but hopefully I've rooted out some little known facts to help the discussion (well, they were little know to me at least!) I thought I might try a couple of slightly different things to the previous CHOW discussions to make up for me being too ineffectual to post screen caps.
So firstly, if you like, why not try answering the questions from two perspectives:
A your own, and
B that of a non-reader.
Secondly, I thought I would split up the questions below to see if that generated more discussion sub-threads rather than just responses. Hopefully, then you can just pick anything which interests you (if anything does).
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 22 2014, 8:11pm
Post #2 of 34
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"[Saruman:] “What proof do we have this weapon came from Angmar’s grave?”
[Gandalf:] “I have none" .............AUJ
1.1 What is Gandalf doing here? Is he here to convince himself or others? At what point exactly does his suspicion about Sauron tip into certainty and how long has Gandalf suspected? How does this compare to his journey of convincing himself vs. convincing others in the texts?
1.2 It is rare to see Gandalf alone and unobserved by others. What does the beginning of the scene reveal, if anything, about his personality or physicality?
1.3 What is the relationship between Gandalf and Radagast? Why has Gandalf called him to the Fells and why does he listen to what Radagast has to say?
1.4 What does Gandalf's decision about whether to return to the company or focus on Dol Guldur tell us - his initial instinct, his vacillation and the ultimate outcome? (Don't forget to think about these from the reader's and non-reader's perspective.)
1.5 Originally this scene seemed to have been planned for after Rivendell and before the Goblin Caves rescue - what would have been different and what would have remained the same, do you think? What implications would it have had, if the scene had been placed there instead?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 22 2014, 8:13pm
Post #3 of 34
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"Thou shouldst not have been old till thou hadst been wise." ......The Fool, King Lear
2.1 Is there a contrast between Radagast's image and his character's impact? Foolish as he appears, is he correct in his advice to Gandalf in this scene? Are there any clues in his physicality or tone of voice which differentiate between the frivolous and the serious (in this or prior scenes?)
2.2 Does Radagast provide a successfully scary silhouette? What impressions do the images of the birds circling his head and sheltering under his hat create?
2.3 Radagast's role in the text of LOTR was to inadvertently direct Gandalf towards imprisonment at the hands of an enemy and then, unwittingly, to send his rescuer. Are we seeing the beginnings of that same function transposed in this scene?
2.4 To what extent do you think McCoy's previous experience playing the Fool to McKellen's Lear has influenced Radagast's portrayal in this two-handed scene and beyond?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 22 2014, 8:17pm
Post #4 of 34
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"[Galadriel:] “...When Angmar fell, men of the North took his body and all that he possessed and sealed it within the High-Fells of Rhudaur. Deep within the rock they buried them, in a tomb so dark it would never come to light.”
[Elrond:] “This is not possible. A powerful spells lies upon those tombs; they cannot be opened.” .........AUJ
3.1 Where on Middle Earth are these tombs? Is it safe to say Rhudaur in the films is not where it is in the books? Does the setting or the way the intro is shot remind you of any LOTR setting?
3.2 Looks like a tricky construction task. Why were they built in the way they were from a plot perspective and what message does it convey to the viewer as a set of architectural choices? Does the architecture remind you of anywhere else from the film Middle Earth?
3.3 Who built it? What does the Pukel Man outside mean? We know in the texts the Druedain had magical powers and the location of the other Pukel Men near Dunharrow reminds us of two other instances of men with "magic" (Isildur and Malbeth). Equally the Pukel Men carvings are linked to the idea of Watch Stones which come to life to protect things (UT). What do you think is being hinted at here?
3.4 What are these spells carved around the tombs? Why have the bars if you believe those inside are dead? Clearly both were ineffectual, so had something changed or did whoever built the tombs not know enough about the Nazgul? Since the White Council also knew about the tombs, what of the same questions for them?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 22 2014, 8:19pm
Post #5 of 34
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Question 4: Azog and the Nazgul
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"2480. onwards Orcs again multiply in secret and occupy many deep places (especially those anciently made by the Dwarves) in the Misty Mountains. They do this so stealthily that none are aware of it, until they have great forces hidden and are ready to bar all the passes from Eriador into Anduin's vales, according to the plan of their master in Dol Guldur. Orcs and Trolls occupy parts of the now empty Mines of Moria." .........Final draft of the Tale of Years, History of Middle Earth.
Q1 What leads Gandalf to connect Azog to Dol Guldur at this point? What has his journey of realisation been, from not being able to question Saruman saying it was simply a wandering Orc pack to recognising him as a war leader for Sauron?
Q2 Azog has been added to the canon story of the Hobbit in order to connect it more to LOTR. What I didn't realise until this week was that it was Tolkien who did it! If, like me, you didn't know: Azog wasn't in the 1937 version and didn't appear until 1966, in response to LOTR. Similarly, the quote above was Tolkien's working draft, for many years, of the shorter entry which was ultimately published in the appendices. Does this impact on our understanding of him as a commander of Sauron's legions in DOS?
Q3 What do these "tombs" suggest about the Nazgul? In the books they have never sat entirely in the camps of "alive" or "dead" or "corporeal" or "non-corporeal". Does this scene suggest anything which makes our interpretation lean one way or the other or does it maintain/ increase the mystery?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 23 2014, 1:09pm
Post #6 of 34
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3.1 Where on Middle Earth are these tombs? Is it safe to say Rhudaur in the films is not where it is in the books? Does the setting or the way the intro is shot remind you of any LOTR setting?
3.2 Looks like a tricky construction task. Why were they built in the way they were from a plot perspective and what message does it convey to the viewer as a set of architectural choices? Does the architecture remind you of anywhere else from the film Middle Earth?
3.3 Who built it? What does the Pukel Man outside mean? We know in the texts the Druedain had magical powers and the location of the other Pukel Men near Dunharrow reminds us of two other instances of men with "magic" (Isildur and Malbeth). Equally the Pukel Men carvings are linked to the idea of Watch Stones which come to life to protect things (UT). What do you think is being hinted at here?
3.4 What are these spells carved around the tombs? Why have the bars if you believe those inside are dead? Clearly both were ineffectual, so had something changed or did whoever built the tombs not know enough about the Nazgul? Since the White Council also knew about the tombs, what of the same questions for them?
Weta's maps of Middle-earth for the Hobbit films do depict Rhudaur where it is supposed to be, including the location of the Coldfells. Unfortunately, the folks at Weta neglected to include the High Fells on any of the maps. We can speculate that Peter Jackson's version of Rhudaur extends to the eastern side of the Misty Mountains, where the High Fells might be.
I suppose that Jackson might have wanted to bring the ruins of Weathertop to mind with the design of the High Fells tombs. He does seem to want to emphasize the isolation of the location.
According to Tolkien's legendarium, Angmar fell in TA 1975 with the Battle of Fornost. The attackers consisted of the remaining people of Arthedain, southern Dunedain from Gondor, mounted men of Rhovanion, the folk that Cirdan summoned from Lindon, and a contingent from the Shire. King Earnur of Gondor went after the Witch-king, but his steed failed him when the Nazgul turned on him. The Witch-king was driven from the field by Glorfindel. Perhaps what is changed in Jackson's version is that Earnur regained control of his horse when Glorfindel confronted the Witch-king, and between the two of them, they were able to capture the Wraith.
The spells of containment seem to have been laid by the Men of Arthedain, maybe with Elvish support. I have no idea about how the other eight Ringwraiths could have come to be entombed; there is no reason to think that any of them would have been present at the fall of Angmar. I think that we are supposed to assume that Sauron overcame the spells upon the tombs, allowing the Nazgul to burst free.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Noria
Gondor
Aug 24 2014, 12:56pm
Post #7 of 34
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Spriggan, these are great questions but they require some thought.
QUESTION 1
1.1 What is Gandalf doing here? Is he here to convince himself or others? At what point exactly does his suspicion about Sauron tip into certainty and how long has Gandalf suspected? How does this compare to his journey of convincing himself vs. convincing others in the texts?
--I think that Gandalf believes that Sauron is active and playing a role in events from the time Radagast gives him the blade from Dol Guldur and tells Gandalf about the Wraith he met there. Maybe Gandalf is not entirely sure and he certainly needs more proof for Elrond and Saruman. In the book it takes centuries and two visits by Gandalf to Dol Guldur for Gandalf to figure it all out and convince the Council. It’s almost risible in the book and IMO certainly wouldn't work on screen, so the whole timeline has been compressed.
--We have all seen the footage of Thrain and Gandalf in Dol Guldur so I wonder what the original plan for the movies was and if it would have worked better. And maybe a different story will still play out in the EE, but we are discussing the TE.
1.2 It is rare to see Gandalf alone and unobserved by others. What does the beginning of the scene reveal, if anything, about his personality or physicality?
--We see the tough and rather fearless Istari rather than the old man. He is determined but cautious as he climbs this insanely difficult path and has it crumble under his feet. Although he is sent sliding down the sloping stone ramp and almost over the edge before he manages to recover himself, he does recover and isn't fazed as he goes on.
1.3 What is the relationship between Gandalf and Radagast? Why has Gandalf called him to the Fells and why does he listen to what Radagast has to say?
--Despite the fact that Gandalf can be somewhat brusque with Radagast at times, the two wizards seem to be allies and friends. Gandalf speaks well of Radagast to Bilbo and Saruman and seems to respect him despite his eccentricities. Maybe this is another example of Gandalf seeing the hidden worth inside people, like he did with Bilbo.
--It is Gandalf that Radagast seeks out with his news about Dol Guldur, not Saruman. Gandalf appears to be the senior partner in this relationship though, since Radagast seems to defer to him somewhat. Maybe Gandalf wants some wizardly backup at Dol Guldur or wants an expert witness, both because the evidence he already possesses failed to convince Saruman and Elrond and so that someone else knows what’s going on if Gandalf is killed.
1.4 What does Gandalf's decision about whether to return to the company or focus on Dol Guldur tell us - his initial instinct, his vacillation and the ultimate outcome? (Don't forget to think about these from the reader's and non-reader's perspective.)
--In the book itself we don’t know why Gandalf leaves the company so we have no idea what he is doing, thinking or feeling there. We don’t even know how he became involved in the mission (aside from Tolkien’s retconning in the LotR Appendices and Unfinished Tales). He seems to leave the company without any regret or worry, aside from his warnings about leaving the path. His attitude is basically that it’s time for the Dwarves to grow up and manage their own affairs.
--In the movie Gandalf is a much more integral part of the quest, in fact we learn that he launched it, and is much less detached. He has to choose between what his heart wants to do – return to his comrades to help them face the dragon – and what Radagast reminds him that he should do, for the sake of the world as a whole, that is continue with his investigations. Love and loyalty versus duty, classic.
1.5 Originally this scene seemed to have been planned for after Rivendell and before the Goblin Caves rescue - what would have been different and what would have remained the same, do you think? What implications would it have had, if the scene had been placed there instead?
--I would much prefer to have seen the High Fells scene immediately after Rivendell. It just makes more sense after what happened at the White Council meeting and Gandalf’s words with Galadriel. However I suppose something else would have had to have happened to spur Gandalf to leave the company at Mirkwood so maybe the way it plays out now is simpler. But to me it seems awkward and contrived.
--Perhaps is this scene had come in AUJ, Gandalf wouldn’t have so much cause to be worried about the Dwarves because they are simply on their way through the Misty Mountains at that point. His choice might have been easier. That Misty Mountains trip doesn’t turn out so well but none of the party knew that beforehand.
--I also think it’s possible that the scene was moved to DoS simply to give Gandalf something more to do in the movie and perhaps because AUJ was getting too long.
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Noria
Gondor
Aug 24 2014, 1:43pm
Post #8 of 34
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QUESTION 2
"Thou shouldst not have been old till thou hadst been wise." ......The Fool, King Lear
2.1 Is there a contrast between Radagast's image and his character's impact? Foolish as he appears, is he correct in his advice to Gandalf in this scene? Are there any clues in his physicality or tone of voice which differentiate between the frivolous and the serious (in this or prior scenes?)
--Yes there is a contrast between Radagast’s appearance and his impact. Despite coming across as a complete idiot at times, we have seen that Radagast is powerful and courageous enough to stand up against what appeared to be a Ringwraith, never mind spiders and wargs. Gandalf listens to him in the Trollshaws and believes what he said and he listens to him in this scene.
--If we focus on the big picture, then Radagast’s insistence that Gandalf continue his own quest instead of Thorin’s is correct. On a more personal level, Gandalf then has to abandon his friends to their fate, which is rough.
--It seems to me that Radagast is less dithery and unfocused and more intense when he switches from crazy old man to Istari mode.
2.2 Does Radagast provide a successfully scary silhouette? What impressions do the images of the birds circling his head and sheltering under his hat create?
--I was startled when Radagast appeared behind Gandalf and I thought the birds were bats. For half a second I thought the figure was a Ringwraith or Orc.
--To me it’s interesting that Radagast’s birds are not just being sheltered under his hat because the wizard loves animals (and so that he can have poo down his face  ). They are also working birds that he uses as scouts and informants. I would think that Radagast sent his birds to scout out the area and find Gandalf.
2.3 Radagast's role in the text of LOTR was to inadvertently direct Gandalf towards imprisonment at the hands of an enemy and then, unwittingly, to send his rescuer. Are we seeing the beginnings of that same function transposed in this scene?
--Interesting point. I’d say there is some correspondence to what happens between the two wizards in FotR in that Radagast is still the catalyst for Gandalf’s fate, but in DoS it is not unwitting. Gandalf is well aware that there is something very dangerous at Dol Guldur and Radagast will later be tasked with informing Galadriel of Gandalf’s intentions.
2.4 To what extent do you think McCoy's previous experience playing the Fool to McKellen's Lear has influenced Radagast's portrayal in this two-handed scene and beyond?
--Not having seen these two actors together in King Lear, I can’t really say. McCoy would have been the second banana in those scenes and that is what he is in The Hobbit movies, though the two characters are more equals. He might well have transferred some elements of his performance. Perhaps their previous working relationship also contributes to the sense of ease and intimacy that we see between the two actors on screen.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 24 2014, 3:10pm
Post #9 of 34
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I do believe that Jackson originally intended the High Fells to be on the west side of the Misty Mountains. Gandalf was first intended to explore them before he caught up with the rest of the company in Goblin-town. Once the decision was made that Gandalf and Radagast would explore the tombs after the Grey Wizard parted from the company at Mirkwood, I think that the High Fells was relocated to the east side of the mountains. I really can't imagine Gandalf and Radagast being able to cross the range again after the Goblins have been stirred up, bunny-sled or not.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Kim
Valinor
Aug 24 2014, 6:03pm
Post #10 of 34
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Hi Spriggan, thanks for the different take on things this week. I’m going to focus my response on this thread re Gandalf.
1.1 What is Gandalf doing here? Is he here to convince himself or others? At what point exactly does his suspicion about Sauron tip into certainty and how long has Gandalf suspected? How does this compare to his journey of convincing himself vs. convincing others in the texts?
The clues have been building up, and with Galadriel’s support, Gandalf realizes he needs to get definitive proof. I think he’s already convinced for himself, as has been since Radagast told his tale about Dol Goldur and revealed out the Morgul Blade, but he needs something concrete to convince the others, especially Saruman.
1.2 It is rare to see Gandalf alone and unobserved by others. What does the beginning of the scene reveal, if anything, about his personality or physicality?
I love this shot, it’s a beautiful view as Gandalf heads up the mountain, and shows that even though he looks like an old man, he’s obviously still got strength to climb to this remote and inaccessible place. It’s actually very striking to see him alone, both during the climb, and when he first enters the tomb.
1.3 What is the relationship between Gandalf and Radagast? Why has Gandalf called him to the Fells and why does he listen to what Radagast has to say?
Obviously, they’ve know and trusted each other a long time. Even though Radagast is a bit scatter-brained, Gandalf knows that he was able to piece together the clues he saw in DG as the signs that something was very wrong. I presume he called Radagast there to be a witness to whatever he finds.
1.4 What does Gandalf's decision about whether to return to the company or focus on Dol Guldur tell us - his initial instinct, his vacillation and the ultimate outcome? (Don't forget to think about these from the reader's and non-reader's perspective.)
This part was really interesting to consider from a reader’s perspective since in the book, Gandalf wasn’t really a fully committed member of the Company – he was just along for a bit to get them started, then was planning to leave. But in the movie, he was with them and intending to travel with them the entire journey, and this came up as more of a surprise. So when Radagast suggests that he needs to warn the others and not return to the Company, there’s actually more emotion in his reaction – he doesn’t want to leave his friends. But then he realizes that he has to see the bigger picture, and warn the others about the greater evil.
1.5 Originally this scene seemed to have been planned for after Rivendell and before the Goblin Caves rescue - what would have been different and what would have remained the same, do you think? What implications would it have had, if the scene had been placed there instead?
It certainly would have changed the focus of the end of AUJ and beginning of DOS, and probably would have been a little closer to the book in that we would know that Gandalf intended to leave the Company. But then, would he have stayed with them as far as Beorn’s, and heard Beorn’s tale as well?
And finally,
Thorin’s hair: back on the river, it’s still wet and lookin fine. 
“Will you follow me, one last time?”
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Aug 24 2014, 6:53pm
Post #11 of 34
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What a long way to climb for an "old man"--and wearing such awkward clothes! Gandalf really needs some Spandex and a few safety harnesses.  Not to mention some grippier boots. I actually thought his almost-fall down into the tombs was a lot more terrifying than climbing up the sheer cliff. In any case, I hope he had leisure to enjoy the landscape as much as I did!
1.1 I'm still baffled by whether or not Gandalf was called to the High Fells by a memory of Galadriel or a telepathic message. I'm inclined toward the latter.
1.3 OK, how did Radagast get up there? He wasn't behind Gandalf, because we never saw him behind Gandalf in the helicopter shots. Was he already waiting inside? Did the birds fly him up there, or did the rabbits drop him off? 
1.5 Geographically it makes more sense for Gandalf to have gone before or shortly after he crossed the Misty Mountains. However, in terms of movie plots, it makes sense to move this closer to the Dol Guldur plot resolution, I guess.
One interesting bit I noticed in Gandalf's portion of the scene is the parallel between what Gandalf says about the Witch King: "If he had a name, it's long since been lost. He would have been known only as a servant of evil" and what we are told in ROTK (book) about the Mouth of Sauron: "The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it." A telling commentary on the decision to do wrong in order to self-promote--it will only result in loss of self. 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Aug 24 2014, 7:06pm
Post #12 of 34
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Well, I'm still trying to hold in my mind the two completely opposite ideas of Ringwraiths, and necromanced ringholders, back from the dead...but let that pass.
I'm not sure the geography is any clue to where the tombs actually are. The mountains do rather remind me of those where the beacons were lit, between Rohan and Gondor, but the tombs can't possibly be there, can they??  Is the Pukel-man there to add veracity to this location? Or is he, as you suggest, Spriggan, about "protection"?
Anyway... I really dislike the greenscreen background behind Gandalf and Radagast in the final bit of this scene. I think that's because the landscape just before looked like actual footage of a real place, and then it becomes kind of foggy and spooky. I don't usually notice when the background is greenscreen, but this one looks kind of bad, IMO.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Aug 24 2014, 7:23pm
Post #13 of 34
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One of Gandalf's finest infodumps
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Q1 What leads Gandalf to connect Azog to Dol Guldur at this point? What has his journey of realisation been, from not being able to question Saruman saying it was simply a wandering Orc pack to recognising him as a war leader for Sauron?
Gandalf: Azog the Defiler is no ordinary hunter. He is a commander, a commander of legions. The enemy is preparing for war. It will begin in the east. His mind is set upon that mountain.
You know, I've been wondering how Gandalf makes that connection between Azog and Dol Guldur ever since I saw the movie. I suppose he connects them because of Azog's "single Orc pack" crossing the Bruinen and the rest of the "preludes to war" he mentioned at the White Council meeting. But how he knows Azog is a "commander of legions" is beyond me. I can see how he grasped Sauron's rise, because of the evidence of the Nine being "busted out," but the rest...?
Well, I guess we just have to credit Gandalf's intelligence. From the prologue of DOS, we know that he knows someone wants Thorin dead, and that Something Is Up with the dragon and the mountain. This might lead to suspecting Azog (remember his doubtful look to Balin after the retelling of the results of the Battle of Azanulbizar?). Apparently then he just ties everything together.
It's a crucial scene, especially if viewers have never read the appendices or any other Tolkien material about the Third Age, that ties all the various plots together and makes The Hobbit so much of a prelude to LOTR.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Bofur01
Lorien
Aug 24 2014, 8:30pm
Post #15 of 34
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Maybe he was exploring the lower levels... //
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Kim
Valinor
Aug 24 2014, 8:59pm
Post #16 of 34
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but just getting down to the first one seemed so precarious, I can't imagine wanting to explore further down. Then again, I'm not a wizard.
“Will you follow me, one last time?”
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 24 2014, 10:30pm
Post #17 of 34
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I'm not sure the geography is any clue to where the tombs actually are. The mountains do rather remind me of those where the beacons were lit, between Rohan and Gondor, but the tombs can't possibly be there, can they?? Is the Pukel-man there to add veracity to this location? Or is he, as you suggest, Spriggan, about "protection"?
We are specifically told in the meeting of the White Council that the High Fells are in Rhugaur, one of the three realms that formerly comprised the North Kingdom of Arnor. Rhugaur's borders are fairly well-defined: The Weather Hills in the west, the Ettenmoors in the north, the area that includes the Angle south of Rivendell, and the Misty Mountains in the east. Peter Jackson seems to place the High Fells on the east side of the Misty Mountains since it seems unlikely that Gandalf and Radagast could have reached the western side after the death of the Great Goblin.
Sorry, but the High Fells can't be anywhere near the White Mountains between Gondor and Rohan.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Aug 24 2014, 10:49pm
Post #18 of 34
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That would make sense logically
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since Rhudaur is in the north, and that ought to be where the High Fells are. But I'm asking if maybe logic (or geography) is not in play here, simply because of the Pukel-man. There shouldn't be any such statues in that part of the West, right? Weren't they found strictly in the White Mountains?
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 24 2014, 11:20pm
Post #19 of 34
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But we do know the Druedain originally settled in part in the Forest of Brethil in Beleriand (even further north than the area the High Fells are presumably in). It's not a vast leap of imagination to think that some might be in the area if they also went so much further south and west.
But what interested me was why it was there in the film and the thought which connected in my own head was to the spells in the tombs - either with the Druedain as possible spell "casters" or as a reminder of other "magic" men (I.e. The examples of those involved with the Dunharrow business mentioned above).
Potentially this is very interesting allusion (without being so bold as to infringe any rights issues).
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Aug 24 2014, 11:21pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 25 2014, 1:10pm
Post #20 of 34
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It isn't so much logic as simple, stated fact.
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We are told that the High Fells is in Rhudaur. We know (approximately) where Rhudaur is, so we know, at least, where the High Fells cannot be--which in this case is near Rohan.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 25 2014, 1:35pm
Post #21 of 34
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We haven't been shown anything in the films to tell us Rhudaur is in fact in the location it is in the books, or that the nominal location hasn't moved, along with the scene move from AUJ to DOS.
That said, I would tend to agree that Rohan seems unnecessarily far for Gandalf and from "the men of the North".
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 25 2014, 1:50pm
Post #22 of 34
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Rhudaur is still one of the three lost realms of Arnor, so that limits how far its borders can be stretched. Heck, Rivendell falls within its boundaries. The only tall peaks within all of Arnor were the Misty Mountains and the southern range of the Blue Mountains (in Arthedain)--and the latter are too far to the west. The High Fells must be in the Misty Mountains.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 25 2014, 3:03pm
Post #23 of 34
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But again I'm not sure book geography is binding for the film. The only things the film say on the location of the High Fells is that they are in Rhudaur and the only thing they say on Rhudaur is that it is where the High Fells are. I.e. In particular they do not say Rhudaur is in Arnor .... unless just thinking as I type.... was it on that map shown by the rangers in TTT?
As it us unconnected to anything else in the films, in theory, the filmmakers could simply have decided they liked the name better than, say, the Grey Mountains and decided to call that area Rhudaur instead.
In practice, the east side of the Misty Mountains to the North of Beorn's makes much more practical sense for Gandalf getting there and back so I agree with the conclusion - but I think it's practicalities which are probably more useful as clues.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Aug 25 2014, 3:06pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 25 2014, 3:38pm
Post #24 of 34
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The film maps do show Rhudaur's location.
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Look at Weta's Parchment Map of Middle-earth. You can easily find Rhudaur on it. The same holds true with the Map of Middle-earth found in Jude Fisher's The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Visual Companion.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 25 2014, 4:26pm
Post #25 of 34
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Yeah I know there is tie in stuff.
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But as with lots of other info in tie in materials it doesn't necessarily fit with what ends up in the films (after all the tie in materials had Gandalf visiting the Fells straight after Rivendell in AUJ). I wouldn't see that as confirmation, after the moving of the scene particularly. After all, if we went strictly by them then we would be assuming Gandalf had re-crossed to the West of the Misty Mountains (which I don't think either of us would think).
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