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Bishop
Gondor
Aug 21 2014, 1:29am
Post #1 of 22
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With the Arkenstone elevated in status, is Thorin justified in his actions?
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I was thinking about the importance the film places on the Arkenstone, and how it changes the nature of Bilbo's deceit and Thorin's plight. With the Arkenstone framed as a "king maker", and the one thing Thorin actually needs to complete his quest, can we blame him for holding Bilbo at sword point? Bilbo is, after all, lying right to Thorin's face at this point (and not convincingly). Is Thorin really so out of line?
When Thorin tells Bilbo that the reason he is there is to find the Arkenstone (That, master burglar, is why you are here), all of the Dwarves stare Bilbo down. They are all on the same page. The Arkenstone is IT, the thing to unite all Dwarves. THAT"s what Bilbo is there for, to burglar it out. If I were film Thorin I would have no problem threatening film Bilbo if I thought he was baloneying me, considering what's at stake.
(This post was edited by Bishop on Aug 21 2014, 1:33am)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Aug 21 2014, 1:50am
Post #2 of 22
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How much does Thorin associate his grandfather's "sickness" with the divine importance he placed on the Arkenstone?
And at this point Thorin should have enough faith in Bilbo to at least consider the idea that Bilbo was doing what he thought was right and not simply trying to thwart Thorin's plans.
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Aug 21 2014, 1:54am)
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Bishop
Gondor
Aug 21 2014, 2:08am
Post #3 of 22
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Is it suggested in the film that the Arkenstone caused the sickness? I've wondered about that.
Either way, it's clear that the Arkenstone is important to all of the Dwarves as a symbol to unite and rule. And while Balin seems open about discussing the sickness with Thorin, he doesn't seem to think the Arkenstone specifically is a problem. He's all for Bilbo going in and getting it.
And Thorin's faith in Bilbo may end at his ability to detect deceit. But even if Bilbo came clean, I can't imagine after all those years and all that questing that he would think that Bilbo might know what's best for him regarding the Arkenstone. Bilbo just learned about it's existence 30 minutes before that!
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 21 2014, 3:31am
Post #4 of 22
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And at this point Thorin should have enough faith in Bilbo to at least consider the idea that Bilbo was doing what he thought was right and not simply trying to thwart Thorin's plans.
Yes, superficially, and certainly Bilbo would have earned both the love and loyalty of all the dwarves, as depicted in the film. But, and I've hammered on this before, being embraced and accepted by a culture and race of beings means respecting that culture and its value systems, and Bilbo is a de facto group member, at this point. He's at Thorin's back and even the first one up the dwarf statue. If you think about it, the embracing of this unlikely Hobbit as one of them has been remarkable by these clannish dwarves. Embracing a being of another race probably seldom happens in any of the dwarf kindgdoms, and I suspect if it did it would be between the craftspeople who could find a common ground in creating things.
So, and this to me is tragic, it seems that Bilbo is behaving with clever little hobbit values, sensible, a bit sly. But this is no hobbit village where folks will be mad for a while and have a laugh and a pint later. To my mind from the dwarves' perspective, it's easy for me to see Bilbo's behavior as a terrible betrayal - just looking around Erebor and the years of legacy that represents. A betrayal of what, is for all practical purposes, his king at the moment. A friend who he knows has carried much and suffered greatly.
Bilbo colludes with elves that imprisoned them. A betrayal of the quest itself. What Bilbo does from a DWARF perspective is monstrous, I think.
True enough, Bilbo saved all, more than once, but all of the company have been heroic - the difference being if Bofur, say, were to behave like Bilbo, I think Bofur knows his life would be forfeit, whether he agrees with Thorin or not.
As to Thorin - on top of all of that, Thorin being a complex leader - who can say what he would behave like if not maddened? But sane or mad, if Thorin killed Bilbo for what he had done, there would be reason for it. And as far as I can tell, Bilbo is in over his head, in that his plan doesn't work out. And why shouldn't Thorin feel knifed in the back? In all the long years no-one outside his own people have been there for him - even Gandalf had ulterior motives and then left them [when Gandlalf started the whole thing]. Thorin is no stranger to betrayal. All the worse coming from a friend who had saved your life.
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 21 2014, 3:51am
Post #5 of 22
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For one thing, we do not know yet what his actions will be.
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I'm sure they will be different from those in the book. Maybe the difference will be small and subtle, but that will be enough to radically change the answer to your question.
The best scenario will be one which leaves room for debate, imho; but we're not there yet.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Aug 21 2014, 5:00am
Post #6 of 22
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In some ways what Bilbo does is obviously a betrayal. But in the movie Bilbo seemed to have every intention of giving Thorin the Arkenstone once he found it. He had no reason not to (unless he ended up being sort of strangely fascinated by it like in the book), until Smaug told him what it might do to Thorin. Bilbo is trying to save Thorin's life again, and it's from something that even Balin has warned him about. Of course it's still sort of unclear how much the Arkenstone itself is connected to the dragon sickness, at least from the dwarves' point of view.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the next movie. I wonder if Bilbo will bring up anything Smaug told him to at least gauge Thorin's reaction to the possibility of the Arkenstone driving him mad.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 21 2014, 8:19am
Post #7 of 22
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The film definition of the Arkenstone as the kingmaker does sharpen our understanding of Thorin's need for it. Without it he fails. But even in the book, I think the need is as strong, it's just that Tolkien doesn't focus the reason for its importance so clearly - it's just 'the heart of the mountain' and 'the heart of Thorin' - so he still has to have it.
As for that justifying Thorin holding Bilbo at sword point, I'm not so sure. From his point of view I suppose, yes, he's under pressure, he's been through so much already and he knows Smaug is around - but he doesn't know Bilbo has the Arkenstone. (For that matter, I don't know Bilbo has it. It certainly looks as if he does but looks can be deceptive.) I'd still say that threatening Bilbo with a sword at that point in the story was too much. Bilbo is one of the company. After all they've been through so far, and all the tight spots Bilbo has wriggled the dwarves out of, Thorin could surely have talked to him longer, asked more questions. And then, if he really suspected that Bilbo was lying, there are thirteen dwarves and one hobbit; two hold him, one search him - how difficult would that be? It's just that the implication of the drawn sword - tell me or I kill you - is shocking at that moment, given that they're supposed to be on the same side. If Smaug hadn't come what was he going to do, kill Bilbo? And if he had, and had then found that Bilbo didn't have the stone after all?
No. Later I think the betrayal becomes much deeper and more painful for Thorin, given the new status of the stone, and later his anger will seem more justified. At this point there is no betrayal, just a hobbit acting strangely, and the drawn sword is shocking.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Aug 21 2014, 12:38pm
Post #8 of 22
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Perhaps not justified, but also not out of character
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Thorin has obviously been a good leader for his people, but he's also tough, proud, quick tempered and used to having his orders obeyed. Now he's finally back in Erebor (after a really exhausting road trip) with a dragon on the loose, no Arkenstone in sight, and a dithering hobbit who won't give him a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer to a simple, direct question. I think the drawn sword scene serves a triple purpose here - it gives the audience a glimpse of how desperate Thorin is to regain everything that was lost; it provides a hint of what is to come in the third movie as the gold sickness takes hold; and it gives Bilbo a reason to believe what Smaug said about the Arkenstone driving Thorin mad. And, of course, it leaves us all wondering if Bilbo has the Arkenstone in his pocket or not. Kudos to the film makers here for packing so many layers into one brief scene.
__________________
If this is to end in barrels, then we will all shampoo together.
(This post was edited by Elarie on Aug 21 2014, 12:47pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 21 2014, 1:36pm
Post #9 of 22
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It's a very clever scene
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 21 2014, 1:58pm
Post #10 of 22
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Well it's a tough question. I'm not convinced Bilbo has the stone at this point, though he certainly knows where to look for it if he doesn't have it. So why did he hesitate to answer? I think he remembered what Smaug said, about Thorin "weighing his life and found it worth nothing," along with the Arkenstone driving Thorin mad. The first thing Thorin said was "You're alive," and then he demands the Arkenstone, which may have caused Bilbo to question his relationship with Thorin - will Thorin toss him aside once he gets the Arkenstone? And that hesitation sets Thorin off, and for just a minute Thorin lost all rationality. It is of course a sign of things to come. I don't think it's the Arkenstone itself that is affecting Thorin, but more like the totality of the Arkenstone, the HUGE piles of gold, and the strain of madness that runs in his family all combine and combust with tragedy. As I said, I don't think Bilbo has the Arkenstone yet - I think if he had it, he would have said "Yes" and given it to Thorin (of course I could be wrong). So no, I don't think Thorin is justified, I think the irrationality is kicking in. I also think that no matter the good intentions, Bilbo's future actions ARE a betrayal of all the Dwarves, not just Thorin. So I guess ultimately both Thorin and Bilbo are wrong.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 21 2014, 2:01pm
Post #11 of 22
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"If this is to end in barrels, then we will all shampoo together." What a crack-up!
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Aug 21 2014, 2:29pm
Post #12 of 22
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And probably also a good conditioning with a hot towel/olive oil pack to work out the last of the spiderwebs, and then possibly a few subtle, secret dwarvish highlights that are only revealed by the light of a waning moon in a month with no 'R' and finished off, of course, with some expert braiding and beautifully carved silver hair ornaments.
Sigh... I want to watch. 
__________________
If this is to end in barrels, then we will all shampoo together.
(This post was edited by Elarie on Aug 21 2014, 2:31pm)
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Old Toby
Grey Havens
Aug 21 2014, 5:42pm
Post #13 of 22
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and so very well said, Avandel! You hit on a lot of points, and I think Thorin's holding Bilbo at swordpoint is completely understandable, whether or not he understood Bilbo's motives. From the perspective of the dwarf who would be King, the Arkenstone was not only the symbol of his right to rule, but the possession of it would unite the dwarf kingdoms again. So, yeah, much more than just a talisman. I never got the impression that the Arkenstone itself contributed to the dragon sickness as some say. For me, that was a separate issue altogether. And certainly from the film's perspective, we don't really know Bilbo's motives at this point. We can only guess, and who is to say for certain that at this point Bilbo's motives are altruistic, that he has Thorin's best interests at heart? I remember in the book (digressing here), Bilbo's picking up the Arkenstone was a completely selfish act. At least that's how I read it. In the movie he may (or may not) have better motives, after listening to Smaug. But it's very easy to see, from the perspective of the dwarves and Thorin in particular, how this withholding of information could be seen as a betrayal, considering the entire reason for them bringing Bilbo along was to fetch the Arkenstone for them.
"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)
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Old Toby
Grey Havens
Aug 21 2014, 5:45pm
Post #14 of 22
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I just can't thank you enough for the vivid visual you just gave me!! LOL!!! made my day!
"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 21 2014, 8:05pm
Post #15 of 22
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Really a betrayal in the films - no
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Hmm, this gets difficult to talk about re perspective - INSIDE the films, as it were, and OUTSIDE the film. So from outside the film (and I am going to leave the book aside here) and make what sounds like a 180 degree turn. I'm hopelessly biased anyway and want to save Thorin and the princes. So from outside the film, of course it's not a betrayal the way I read the scenes. Or it's the kind of betrayal, in its simplest form, you do to save a friend - stripping out all the other factors of heritage and symbols and royalty. Perhaps Bilbo in the films has a "deceptively simple" hobbit mentality - the same mentality I think plays into his actions of not "getting" what it means to be a dwarf and the dwarf concept of loyalty. Bilbo does what needs to be done - he saves Thorin at the pines, at the risk of his own life. Bilbo will, I think, sacrifice all to do what needs to be done, once again, and tho there will be other reasons like a gathering war, I think the beginning is to save a friend (geez I am SO going to need massive amounts of tissues - how many of the audience unfortunately can relate to stuff like this???) Plus - tho it may not be brought up in the film - Bilbo is already struggling with the tendrils of being a Ring-bearer, himself. He's seen Gollum and knows about obsession for a "precious".
Loved Bilbo for this as Smaug's words are making Bilbo ANGRY. But he's listening. So I think Bilbo has the stone, but when he hesitates with Thorin, he's buying time to THINK. And anyway even tho Thorin came for him, from the outset of that scene I think Bilbo picks up on the fact that Thorin isn't acting quite right. He certainly isn't. Normally I think the warrior Thorin would have just grabbed Bilbo and been hauling him back up the passage, instead of worrying about the Arkenstone.
I wonder if Bilbo will bring up anything Smaug told him to at least gauge Thorin's reaction to the possibility of the Arkenstone driving him mad.
*Sigh* Even if he did, tho, don't think it would matter, a brain that is sick can't make rational connections....
INSIDE the movie, from the DWARF perspective of course, it's a betrayal. Except, perhaps, to the younger Fili and Kili, who were raised away from the grandeur of Erebor, and being younger are more open, and at the other end of the spectrum to Balin, who has seen so much.
(As to the book version - I am leaving that out, because that never read well to me. Tho right now for me it's still murky as to the gold driving Thror mad - or the Stone - and now with Thorin? Certainly Thorin has quite a reaction to the hoard.)
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 21 2014, 8:20pm
Post #17 of 22
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I think the drawn sword scene serves a triple purpose here - it gives the audience a glimpse of how desperate Thorin is to regain everything that was lost; it provides a hint of what is to come in the third movie as the gold sickness takes hold; and it gives Bilbo a reason to believe what Smaug said about the Arkenstone driving Thorin mad. And, of course, it leaves us all wondering if Bilbo has the Arkenstone in his pocket or not. Kudos to the film makers here for packing so many layers into one brief scene.
Tho personally sure Bilbo has it - in any case if he doesn't think there is too much in BOFA already to have to add more scenes about finding a stone!
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 21 2014, 8:45pm
Post #18 of 22
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I'd still say that threatening Bilbo with a sword at that point in the story was too much. Bilbo is one of the company. After all they've been through so far, and all the tight spots Bilbo has wriggled the dwarves out of, Thorin could surely have talked to him longer, asked more questions. And then, if he really suspected that Bilbo was lying, there are thirteen dwarves and one hobbit; two hold him, one search him - how difficult would that be? It's just that the implication of the drawn sword - tell me or I kill you - is shocking at that moment, given that they're supposed to be on the same side.
It's one of the things I roll with, e.g. the speed of these films and editing pace, *sigh*. So REALISTICALLY and with more time I could see Thorin already stressed and with the first tinges of madness being pretty irritable and rough and impatient with Bilbo, but going so far as to pull a sword - and RA has said in an interview Thorin went in, eventually, to FIND Bilbo which to me - and we see this later as well - Thorin has a huge fondness for this hobbit and isn't that far around the bend yet.
It was a shock. But from a FILM perspective and a Thorin fan a relief, that for DOS it wasn't any worse, in that I personally wasn't ready for the breakdown I know is coming. Will say as it is thankful re BOFA (for us Thorin fans anyway), PJ seems to be using some restraint, e.g. not having Thorin drooling with underpants-on-the-head or whatever the slavering You-Tubers are picturing.
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 21 2014, 10:04pm
Post #19 of 22
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Yes, sorry if I wasn't very clear there....
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Within the film I think the scene is pitched just right for all the reasons Elarie gave - there are so many layers of meaning there.
When I said it was 'too much' I wasn't meaning that there was anything wrong in the film showing Thorin drawing his sword on Bilbo. I was judging Thorin's reaction - going back tot he OP's question 'was Thorin justified' and saying that I don't reckon he was, though the shock value of that scene tells so much about Thorin's state of mind. (Extra shocking for the audience who know, as Thorin doesn't, that Bilbo has just escaped being fried at that moment and the last thing he needs is to be stopped in his tracks by angry (but oh, so majestic  ) dwarf, wielding a sword...
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 21 2014, 11:20pm
Post #20 of 22
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And on the other hand, for me, guess I hadn't thought about it in depth - but now that I am - it's such a BIG sword. But Thorin has it in his hand, is pretty stressed out and Bilbo is, to my mind, not lying very well. Tho I wouldn't expect Bilbo to find lying easy. Guess I first saw this in the trailer, because I remember being pretty shocked, and really worried about how bad things would get in DOS.
ALTHOUGH - re BOFA - and maybe the scene is shown on purpose to calm folks *a bit* re the breakdown of Thorin and Bilbo's relationship - when Thorin is speaking the last line, Bilbo is standing there with the Company, which all things considered I found intriguing. Course some things may not make book fans happy, but personally I think keeping Bilbo more active than the original book is a good move on PJ's part.
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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KeenObserver
Lorien
Aug 22 2014, 6:06am
Post #22 of 22
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I don't think Bilbo has it either
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I do think that we'll get a scene or sequence in the next instalment that's akin to the passage in the "Not at Home" chapter where Mr. Baggins covetously pockets the Arkenstone while the rest of the company frantically searches for it.
And regarding Thorin's actions towards Bilbo, I'll just say that I find it hard to judge the mountain king because I can understand his impulsiveness.
Oakenshield is thinking: "either you tell me that you actually possess the Arkenstone or you're going to turn around and somehow retrieve it before we make a B-line for the exit because I really need this precious jewel in order to attempt reclamation".
Sort of a do-or-die moment . . . Or, a do-or-the-quest-is-all-for-naught moment . . . Well, that's my interpretation of the scene.
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Aug 22 2014, 6:12am)
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Personally I think PJ & co. are doing some good stuff, fleshing things out here and there, tho whether Tolkien would have AGREED with the changes is another matter
. But from a purely literary standpoint - the "gaps" are something *wistful* I wish Tolkien himself had had time for.