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Political economy of Mordor

HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Aug 18 2014, 1:34pm

Post #1 of 13 (2085 views)
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Political economy of Mordor Can't Post

Since I have been actively posting here (as opposed to being an observer for a while), I've seen threads discussing Gondor, Lake Town and the Woodland Realm. One of the reasons I love Tolkien is because he created such a rich world, but he didn't fill in the details. We get grand strokes. So its up to us in the fandom to describe the finer points. So lets paint a more precise picture of Mordor.


I don't think anyone would disagree that Mordor was a totalitarian society. Sauron would have controlled every aspect of the country. However, even in the most closed societies, there is a great deal going on (think North Korea). Mordor was militarized so a great deal of the population was part of the war-making machine. There would have to be smiths, weapons makers, boot camps for training troops, but most importantly, there would have to been a great deal of people to support the army. The civilian to army ratio differs based on societies, but for such a large force of infantry, there would have to be millions of people supporting the army through food production. Tolkien writes that there were vast farms to the south of Mordor around the sea of Nurn. Who lived there? Most of them were slaves, probably captured from Gondor. Others might have been prisoners sent as tribute from Harad.


I would imagine Nurn to be diverse with Gondorrim, Rohirrim, Haradrim and captives from far-and-wide from Mordors wars. It might look something like the slave societies Esteros in Game of Thrones. The northern part of Mordor would be heavily militarized and maybe most of the arms production went on there. The capital Barad-dur would be a place of terror and torture. I doubt there would be much culture there.


Mordor also would be unique in that it was a place where orcs lived alongside Men and other peoples. There were also a diversity of orcs with smaller goblins living with the Uruk-hai. There were trolls living there as well. How did Sauron keep all of these evil beings in line, especially in close quarters with men, even if some of these men were evil themselves?


I doubt Mordor was a trading capital or made anything of worth for the outside world. Sauron's material power came from tribute from the Men of the South and plundering men of the West (remember his minions stole horses from Rohan). Sauron probably offered a great deal of knowledge to his suzerainty, which gave them great power (remember knowledge is power).


Any other thoughts on how Mordor was run? Did the Orcs and Trolls have "culture?" How did they get along with the Men in Mordor? Was power fully top-down or would Sauron delegate authority? After the Nazgul, who would Sauron trust (the Mouth of Sauron appeared to be the only person with authority in the books).


We know life would have been bleak for slaves in Mordor. But what was everyday life for his troops. I doubt it was a walk in the park...


Arannir
Valinor


Aug 18 2014, 2:02pm

Post #2 of 13 (1900 views)
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A little hint [In reply to] Can't Post

We get a little hint through the Orcs Gorbag and Shagrat, imho.

The way they talk about the "ruling class" of Mordor shows that the Orcs indeed were independent enough to mock their leaders (when they did not listen) and - at least among themselves - questioned some of their decisions:



"I’d like to try somewhere where there’s none of’em. But the war’s on now, and when that’s over things may be easier."

"It’s going well, they say."

"They would." grunted Gorbag. "We’ll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d’you say? If we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses."

"Ah!" said Shagrat, "Like old times."




These quotes might also hint that under Sauron's rule there were still Orcs around who could remember a time in which they were much less depended. Which makes sense, looking at how the Goblin King and Bolg act in The Hobbit (even in the movies in which Azog and Bolg are much closer connected to Sauron, Azog in particular is portrayed as much more independent from Sauron and unhappy about some of his decisions).



I also believe that the slaves who cultivated the areas around the Sea of Núrnen must have become a rather separated people over the years, with many probably being second, third, x-generation-slaves who do not really have ahome anymore. This must be why some of them stay in Mordor after the War of the Ring (I think Aragorn grants them the lands there).

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 18 2014, 7:10pm

Post #3 of 13 (1860 views)
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Mordor and Beyond [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember that Sauron and his lieutenants (the Nazgul) controlled vast territories. His workforce would have been largely slaves and serfs, both captured and taken from his own peoples (Variags, Harardrim, Easterlings and Orcs). Nurn would have been the breadbasket of Mordor, located in the southern region of Mordor but still within its borders). It could have also supplied grain and other produce to Khund and to the Haradwaith, maybe even Umbar. Skilled craftsmen probably came from both the East and the South.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Cari
Bree

Aug 18 2014, 11:18pm

Post #4 of 13 (1842 views)
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Chieftains [In reply to] Can't Post

It would make sense that the Nurn slave population were ruled over by Taskmasters who in turn were commanded by a powerful Orc or Black Uruk. Who these commanders reported to is more of a mystery to me but since Middle-Earth is in a Medieval time-frame, I will make the assumption that after these commanders the place would be ruled in a Feudal fashion. Cirith Ungol possibly could have just been one of many Citadels/Strongholds that were later built after Sauron's return and Orc Chieftains ruled from.


squire
Half-elven


Aug 19 2014, 12:46am

Post #5 of 13 (1855 views)
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Hell on earth is not easily analyzed [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that the general organization of Mordor is sketched out by Tolkien as you say: Gorgoroth and Udun are militarized as a series of camps and armories, while the area around Nurn is a kind of slave plantation.

'Totalitarian' is one word we quickly reach for to describe the politics, but I think we should remember that Tolkien did not like to be pinned down allegorically. Along with suggestions of modern dictatorships like Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, Mordor is also referred to as an absolute monarchy, a bureaucratic technocracy, and most importantly, a theocracy ruled not by a priest class but by the actual Demon-God himself.

Sauron is not just obeyed by his subjects and vassals, he is worshipped; his 'state' does not just dominate the Mannish lands to the East and South through trade and knowledge (although those certainly play a part as you say), but through being the Holy Land of a religious culture of devilry.

Not all aspects of Mordor are consistent, since the place is deliberately conceived of as a nightmare come to life, and nightmares tend not to be rational. How do Men and Orcs actually get along socially? How can Sauron run everything? Do the Black Numenoreans such as the Mouth of Sauron really have free will and delegated authority or does Sauron project himself though them? How can Shagrat and Gorbag even conceive of breaking away from Sauron's rule, or remember a time when orcs had an independent streak?

I think the last question, coming as it does from our most intimate exposure to Mordor's folk in the Cirith Ungol chapters, is most indicative of how Tolkien plays it both ways. If the orcs were mindless slaves their actions and speech would be too uninteresting to sustain the drama needed in this episode - among other things, there would have been no 'civil war' that allowed Sam to rescue Frodo. By inventing a sub-plot, and conflicted characters, and an independent polity for Minas Morgul, Tolkien makes the story work -- but at the expense of making Sauron and the orcs somewhat more 'human'. At times it seems we are hearing the talk of thug-like non-coms in a European army of the Great War (whence in fact Tolkien says he derived a lot of his orc-dialogue's coarse tones), rather than the mindless slaves of the magical and diabolical Necromancer who go insane and throw themselves into pits after the Ring is destroyed during the Last Battle.

Consistently applied, this approach would make Mordor less fearsome, so at other points the narrator emphasizes the incredible power of Barad-dur over the spirits of everyone under its sway, with such horrifying and inhuman references as having ones body stripped off so that the spirit is left naked for eternal torment.

All of this applies, of course, more to the Mordor we visit, in Gorgoroth and its environs. As to the enslaved regions that provide the food and other produce, I don't think Tolkien gave them more thought than was required to acknowledge their necessity. Our imaginations can certainly range freely there, knowing that 'slave' in the European imagination arouses not just images of African slavery in the Caribbean sugar islands, but memories of Roman slaves working the latifundia of classical Italy, and Christian slaves under the sway of medieval Turkish pashas. But once again, it is important to place at the top of the slavemasters' pyramid not a human dictator or sultan, but Satan himself come to live and rule on Earth or, more properly, Middle-earth.



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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Aug 19 2014, 4:57pm

Post #6 of 13 (1807 views)
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Udun [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your allusion of Hell on Earth. Tolkien definitely tries to describe Mordor as a hellish place. After all, a region of Mordor is named "Udun" and Morgoth's original dwelling also was called Udun (Utumno). Indeed, Udun is Sindarin for "Hell" so there is a direct comparison there.


Given all that, you rightly point out that, although aspects of Mordor are hellish, it is not really Hell. Sauron's servants may live under constant fear, but the majority of them probably aren't being tortured. It appears even the Orcs have some level of free-will and though their culture may be crude, one can imagine that Orcs can be happy (even if it requires plundering and looting).


The imagery of hell is there: Mt. Doom, plain of Gorgoroth, Barad-dur, and for the slaves, captives and prisoners of Mordor, the experience is probably quite hellish. But in the end, Mordor is run like a "state" or "kingdom" given Middle Earth is a combination of antiquity and Medievalism. Sauron has an ambassador who, although rather condescendingly, observes the rules of diplomacy (or at least adheres to them as the Mouth of Sauron does in the Black Gate Opens chapter). Mordor makes alliances and has some trade with other lands.


I also get your point on the religious aspect of Mordor. The character Thulsa Doom in the Conan the Barbarian is similar in many ways, although Doom was not a god, he acted as if he was. However, unlike Numenor, we don't see the religious worship of Sauron as the Numenorians worshipped Melkor. It would be interesting if there were cults to Sauron in far-off lands or even in Gondor itself. One could easily imagine a cult sprouting up in Umbar.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 20 2014, 12:59am

Post #7 of 13 (1804 views)
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What even dictators can't control [In reply to] Can't Post

Great topic, HeWho!


Quote
I don't think anyone would disagree that Mordor was a totalitarian society. Sauron would have controlled every aspect of the country. However, even in the most closed societies, there is a great deal going on (think North Korea).

I agree Mordor is a totalitarian state with all the power and decisions concentrated at the top. Just look what happens when that power is terminated.

What strikes me about Orcs is how unruly they are in a society where they are in fear of authority and are under orders at all time. They even have "numbers," which free societies don't seem to have.

Not only do the Orcs from Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol slaughter each other, which seems to break all the rules, but even when there are only two Orcs together, they don't much sense of discipline. When the tracker and soldier pursuing Sam and Frodo start to argue, the soldier threatens to report the tracker to the Nazgul for dereliction of duty. The reply is, "Go your filthy Shriekers, and may they freeze the flesh off you!...They've done in Number One, I've heard, and I hope it's true!"

Calling the Nazgul "filthy" seems awfully disrespectful, and saying you hope the chief of them is dead is even more treasonous. But these two Orcs seem average to me, and the tracker heard the news via gossip (which seems to run rapidly in Mordor, all the way from the Pelennor Fields), so it seems there are others who think as he does. They serve Sauron and the Nazgul, but they fear and hate them to the point they would be glad to have them dead, or would like to run off as Shagrat and Gorbag discuss.

So they're not really under mind control, or they'd worship Sauron and utter blessings in his great name, but they become directionless when his power is destroyed, so he has considerable influence over them. Is that influence enough to keep them from killing each other? No. Is it enough to make them follow orders? Even then, we're left wondering. The Orcs that overtake Sam and Frodo are being whipped to march to the Black Gate. They're not patriotically going to defend the fatherland. Their tormentor (who also threatens to get their numbers and report them for desertion) says he'd whip them a lot more, but he knows they'll "get as much lash as your skins will carry when you come in late to camp." Again, these are begrudging servants to Sauron.

Their culture seems to be one of resentment of authority and hatred of each other, paradoxically like obedient anarchists. (Maybe Orcs mystics describe their yin and yang that way.) Your question about culture made me wonder: do they sing when they're not in battle, as in singing around a campfire? Do they have an oral tradition? Do any of them carve wood as a hobby? Or is their only purpose to work and serve, and their only hobby to torture and kill?

You also made me wonder if they're dual purpose. Is there a huge standing army supported by civilian Orcs like the tracker, or are they all citizen-soldiers who all make weapons and build things and make clothes when they're not in combat? I tend to think the latter, because they're not constantly at war. For comparison, what did the Orcs in Moria do 365 days a year? They didn't have regular invaders to fight, and they didn't have any near neighbors to fight on a regular basis, so how did they pass their time? Were they miners and smiths? Where did their food come from--hunting/gathering parties that only went out at night? That certainly limits the radius they could affect. Maybe their lack of food explains why they were a smaller race than the Mordor Orcs who had all that collectivized agriculture in Nurn to keep them nourished.


Cillendor
Lorien


Aug 20 2014, 2:38pm

Post #8 of 13 (1761 views)
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Excellent thoughts! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure how much I can contribute here, but I've always imagined that they can have a rather peaceable society. I know Tolkien struggled on whether or not they could be redeemed, but if you go with the predominant theory that Orcs descend from mutilated Elves, then it does not seem unreasonable that they might hold on to a little bit of that Elvish mirth.

If Orcs descend from the Elves captured before the First Age, then they have to have Elvish fëar. Elves can be killed, and they can die of great grievances and loss of will, but they do not die naturally. That is, among the Children of Ilúvatar, the Gift of Men. I cannot imagine that Orcs would be given this Gift; and yet it is unlikely that any have lived long enough to be considered "immortal" (Peter Jackson's Azog being a non-canon exception). Perhaps all Orcs were just so violent that they killed each other before they could get very old. Or perhaps their mutilated hroär could not bear abiding within Arda for so long, so their physical forms saw quick decay and their spirits were released to Mandos (or to roam?).

If we hold to this view, then I think they must have retained a bit of Elvishness in their culture. It is a matter of nature versus nurture, but if they are by nature Elves, then their evil ways must be due to nurture. If you have an entire culture bent on hating other races and achieving status by brawn and gumption, then why would they change? Their campfire stories and oral traditions probably told Orc-centric versions of the tales of Elves. Elvish victory is remembered with bitter resentment. Elvish defeat is celebrated in song.

I also would imagine that the Orcs were much more submissive to Morgoth than they are to Sauron. Not that he would necessarily have any tighter control on them, but he was truly a god, and even his several injuries could be spun into victories. ("I let that puny Man and She-elf take the Silmaril so I could bring destruction upon Doriath and remove the bothersome Melian.") Furthermore, they might believe that Morgoth found their forefathers naked and afraid at Cuiviénen and rescued them before the Valar could steal them away.

But with Sauron, he could perhaps be viewed as a coward. He is made a fool by a dog. He pitifully begs Eönwë for his life. He cowers before the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn. He defies those angry Gods of the West and is nearly destroyed. Maybe the Orcs were willing to fight for him at the Battle of the Last Alliance, but I think from that point on, he lost all of his respect. When he did start to rally the Orcs again, he had to use threats of violence to keep them in line. Obviously the different cultures of Orcs weren't happy about being forced to work together. They would rather be free to live their lives how they sought fit than to be thralls to a half-rate demigod. Maybe if they went along with him and he won, they could return to live in relative freedom, but they did not enjoy it.

Never would they imagine siding with Elves and Men (except those Men who submitted to Sauron). Their timeless traditions that all learned from infancy taught them that Elves and the Edain were the source of their sufferings. Without those vile races, the Orcs would have peace and freedom and could roam as they saw fit. They were the victims of the Elves, so they had to learn war young in order to defend themselves and maybe even get a small amount of revenge. Serving Sauron was not ideal, but it was a necessary evil so that they could hopefully eradicate their enemies.

That is how I understand them, anyway. They are warped by millennia of brainwashing and war, but they still retain a bit of Elvishness and culture. They aren't inherently evil, they just have a vastly different outlook on the world and are painted as mindless beasts by the ones who wrote down history.


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Aug 20 2014, 7:05pm

Post #9 of 13 (1761 views)
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Excellent, Excellent Thread & Postings [In reply to] Can't Post

Fantastic postings and thread all around. I have wondered about this topic since the wonderful Professor did write in a lot of broad strokes and not in depth about many subjects as so many of us would have liked - I think he would have LOVED all this - it was GREAT reading. Thanks all.Smile


PhantomS
Rohan


Aug 21 2014, 3:35pm

Post #10 of 13 (1738 views)
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the Men and Orc situations [In reply to] Can't Post

when we see Frodo and Sam mumble through Mordor, we rarely see Orcs and Men work side by side. The only hint of Men are the Easterlings that come through the Black Gate, who march off to some place inside Mordor's borders, as well as Sam's unawareness of the slave fields of Nurnen. It's very likely that Mordor itself doesn't have any orc-led slave management units, and that all the slavery is controlled by Mordor's human allies- the Corsairs kidnap the people, the Haradrim and Khandians bring them to Mordor and the Easterlings took people from Rhovannion etc. The overseer that Sam sees is whipping his fellow orcs, more like a drill sergeant.

Sauron also doesn't seem to have a slave army of conscripts/cannon fodder; although his own army is huge, he doesn't mobilize any slaves to take Gondor's arrows and cavalry charges. Hence he kept his slaves in a certain place (Nurn) to do a certain thing (grow his food) and separated them from his true servants (the Orcs). The human allies to Sauron probably also camped in Nurnen, where food and fellow humans were plentiful. I can't imagine a southron king pitching a tent on the plains of Gorgoroth.


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Aug 21 2014, 3:53pm

Post #11 of 13 (1752 views)
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On Orcs and their nature [In reply to] Can't Post

Orcs appear to be related to the Children of Iluvatar (ignoring for now their origins) given that they somehow mated with men. It is never made clear how the Orc-Men created by Saruman came about (magic, genetic splicing or mating), but however it happened, Men and Orcs are close enough to breed. If Orcs are de-evolved Elves, then they should be able to intermix with Elves as well (given that Men and Elves could mix).


Orcs did pick up the languages of other people, so it wouldn't be far-fetched that they would pick up other customs. They do have instruments (in Moria, the bang drums and blow horns to scare the Fellowship). Are these instruments for military and/or fear purposes only? They create crude songs (15 Birds) and seem to have their own distinct cultures (Grey Mountain goblins vs. Misty Mountain counterparts; Gundubad orcs vs. Moria orcs).


All that being said, Goblins appear to have "primitive" cultures similar to Men such as the Púkel-men or Drúedain and maybe Dunlendings. The "higher" Orcs such as the Uruk-hai might have had a more structured society, but it is hard to speculate about Orc behavior given the few details about their society that Tolkien provides. Still, they had leaders and/or kings. The Great Goblin was the head of Goblin Town, and as chaotic as it is portrayed in AUJ, it still seemed like a settled society.


The Orcs -- as pointed out elsewhere in these forums -- basically play the role of Zombies, Aliens or Robots in LOTR and TH (and this effect is exponentially increased at the hands of PJ), so there is little humanity given to them. Tolkien gave them very little humanity and either, and the video-game type way they are dispatched in the movies don't help.


Still, Tolkien gives us some glimpses with Shagrat and Gorbag and Uglúk and Grishnákh. At least these guys have names, and though they seem to loathe each other as much as they do other species, they have some type of "species" bond. I bet an anthropologist could learn a lot about the Orcs given the few tidbits we have from Tolkien.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Aug 31 2014, 9:32am

Post #12 of 13 (1710 views)
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Evil, a selfish thing [In reply to] Can't Post

The picture of Mordor we see is consistent, I think with Tolkien's concept of evil as arising from dominating other wills. So we don't come across any characters who are Sauron fundamentalists, mistakenly thinking it is right to do the will of Sauron. These might exist, but all the characters whose motives we encounter are at least in part out for their own ends. The list I have is:

Saruman is falling into the orbit of Mordor thinking it is a matter of realpolitic, rather than faith.

The orcs, as already commented, have ideas of their own, though seem to be more likely to indulge in random cruelty and vandalism, rather than scheming.

When we briefly encounter The Mouth of Sauron, we're invited to infer he's relishing the idea that he will be the Lieutenant who Sauron will choose to rule Gondor, if it surrenders.

The Nazgul, magically enslaved to Sauron's will, ought to be more of an exception than they are But even they don't press home their attack after Weathertop, apparently because they are afraid of the barrow blades (an idea I've always found a bit difficult!).

Gollum has some murky arrangement with Sauron, but is always acting in his own interests.

This all contrasts with the motives of many of the admirable characters, who do things not for personal advantage. Characters such as Elrond, Frodo, Galadriel deliberately do things which are going to result in personal loss.

So, I think Tolkien is combining the "chaotic", every man for himself view of evil with the despotic one. Both are recognizable enough.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2014, 8:10pm

Post #13 of 13 (1741 views)
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A bit o' thought [In reply to] Can't Post

The picture of Mordor we see is consistent, I think with Tolkien's concept of evil as arising from dominating other wills. So we don't come across any characters who are Sauron fundamentalists, mistakenly thinking it is right to do the will of Sauron. These might exist, but all the characters whose motives we encounter are at least in part out for their own ends. The list I have is:

True! Now that you say it out, I am seeing yet another difference between Sauron and Morgoth. Sauron never seems to want to be worshiped or deified, and overall, seems to be much more pragmatic than his erstwhile master. Morgoth always came across as a spoiled child, but Sauron seems much more calculated and deadly. Could you image Morgoth's power with Sauron's cunning? Scary!!

Saruman is falling into the orbit of Mordor thinking it is a matter of realpolitic, rather than faith.

I agree. Saruman here, seems to fall to the same type of evil that is akin to Sauron; the worship and devotion to power. Who can stand against him?

The orcs, as already commented, have ideas of their own, though seem to be more likely to indulge in random cruelty and vandalism, rather than scheming.

Small-fry imitators.

When we briefly encounter The Mouth of Sauron, we're invited to infer he's relishing the idea that he will be the Lieutenant who Sauron will choose to rule Gondor, if it surrenders.

Good ol' greed!

The Nazgul, magically enslaved to Sauron's will, ought to be more of an exception than they are But even they don't press home their attack after Weathertop, apparently because they are afraid of the barrow blades (an idea I've always found a bit difficult!).

I thought it was fear of fire, but a re-read might be in order.

Gollum has some murky arrangement with Sauron, but is always acting in his own interests.

In this complicated relationship, there are actually three parties: Sauron, Gollum, and Smeagol. Sauron is able to prey upon both the fear of Smeagol and the obsession of Gollum who clings to any chance to regain his 'precious'. I thought that Sauron let Gollum/Smeagol believe he had escaped, but even if he were no convinced or a genuine escape, I think he would have still gone in hopes of regaining the Ring.

This all contrasts with the motives of many of the admirable characters, who do things not for personal advantage. Characters such as Elrond, Frodo, Galadriel deliberately do things which are going to result in personal loss.

All well said, but can we call them altruists do you think?

So, I think Tolkien is combining the "chaotic", every man for himself view of evil with the despotic one. Both are recognizable enough.

Well thought out!!


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

 
 

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