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Rings of Power question: why nothing for Yavanna?
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CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 20 2014, 1:38pm

Post #1 of 32 (3365 views)
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Rings of Power question: why nothing for Yavanna? Can't Post

Concerning the Rings of Power, I'm starting with the assumption that Celebrimbor and his people thought they were making good works despite Sauron's deceit.

So with that assumption, I assume the Nine were meant to help Men rule, but as enlightened rulers.

The Seven went to Dwarves and seem to embody the character and/or adoration of Aule and his province of Arda.

Vilya, as ring of air/sky, seems to venerate both Manwe and Varda (he rules the lower sky/atmosphere, she gets the stars). Nenya celebrates water, our good friend Ulmo. Narya is a little tricky, since there's no Vala of fire other than Aule, and maybe that's who it's for, but the part about it kindling hearts gives it a more spiritual dimension, so it could be made in memory of Eru himself and the Flame Imperishable, or something less lofty, like Lorien (the Vala) and dreams inspiring the heart.

Still with me? All these things are venerated by Elves, but they leave out trees and Yavannna. Why was there no emerald ring of nature and green, growing things as one of the Three or as the Four? (One could suggest the Elessar addresses that, except that's not a fleshed out tale like the Three are, so it doesn't adequately fill the gap.)


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Aug 20 2014, 3:29pm

Post #2 of 32 (3105 views)
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I think the ring of Barahir fills the gap perfectly! [In reply to] Can't Post

If you think about it Aragorn reclaiming the ring is essentially following the ancient celtic rite of kingship, he is claiming the land which is represented by Yavanna, the feminine. When Sauron is destroyed Aragorn reclaims the earth literally and the feminine balance of the earth is restored in his marriage to Arwen. The ring really has a lot of beautiful symbolism behind it.
Great theory by the way about the rings being based on elements!




Bracegirdle
Valinor


Aug 20 2014, 5:20pm

Post #3 of 32 (3091 views)
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I too have wondered [In reply to] Can't Post

Yavanna or Yavanna Kementari (Queen of Earth). I too wonder why Celebrimbor didn’t make a Fourth Elven Ring in her honor – “Kemenya”, The Ring of Earth set with a single Green Gem.
Now we would have: Vilya – air; Nenya – water; Narya – fire; and Kemenya - earth.

But then Four Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky just doesn’t have that “ring” to it does it? Wink

“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."


squire
Half-elven


Aug 20 2014, 7:12pm

Post #4 of 32 (3089 views)
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I thought the Rings were all originally intended for the Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

I admit I've always been confused about Tolkien's various narratives explaining the Rings of Power, which from the very beginning seem to have been an attempt to justify the existence of Bilbo's ring as a totem of more significance than was at first suspected. The early rings, the seven and the nine, were Rings of Power that seem to have emphasized enhancement of racial power for whoever held them, whether Elves as intended, or Dwarves or Men as Sauron repurposed them after stealing them from the Elvish smiths in Hollin.

Only the last three, the final products of the Elves' own interest in what power is best used for, were modified to enhance the seemingly more benign power of preservation and healing. (Although Tolkien commented rather nastily in his commentaries that the Rings were all flawed from the beginning, not just by Sauron's involvement but by the Elves' own attraction to "embalming" their past glories in Middle-earth. Power is an evil to Tolkien, even when used by Elves.)

So far as the classical Four Elements can be said to apply to the Valar, I thought it went like this, based on the narrative in the Ainulindale:
Manwe: Air
Ulmo: Water
Aule: Earth
Melkor: Fire

Does this fit the so-called virtues of the Three Rings?

Well no, since the red ring can hardly be said to be a good one by those terms! I rather think we should let go of the idea that the rings evoke specific Valar, and simply say they are elemental. So: Water, Air -- and as far as I can tell, the third one ought to be the ring of Earth (Aule, maybe!). I've always thought it is actually the ring of fire solely because it enhances Gandalf's status as the Istar who succeeded in his mission and who was equal in stature to Elrond and Galadriel, but who was already (cf. The Hobbit) identified as a fire specialist. Sure, fire can have the sense of kindling courage and being a beacon of hope. Sure.

This leaves out not just Yavanna but Aule and Varda too, so hopefully the plant Lady will not be too miffed.



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 20 2014, 7:55pm

Post #5 of 32 (3071 views)
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Ordering rings by catalog [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to wonder how those conversations with Sauron/Annatar went.

Sauron: "So let's make 19 great rings after you've made a bunch of lesser rings learning the craft. But you only get to keep 3 of those. The rest we will give to Dwarves and Men. You like Dwarves and Men, don't you? Consider the 16 Rings to be stocking stuffers for Christmas."
Celebrimbor: "We only get to keep 3 and give away 16? Why are we in this Ring business if we have so little to show for it?"

Celebrimbor made the Three in secret and without Sauron's involvement, so for official production figures, there were only 16. Didn't the Elves plan to keep them when they made them? That's just so much to give away to other races, regardless of what nature of power was in them, but I'm projecting my own reaction onto an Elf. Maybe when you're under Sauron's influence, it seems reasonable.

I agree it's a stretch to associate the Rings specifically with individual Valar, and I came to that conclusion by accident. It wasn't likely an original plan, but I was speculating on if it was an unintentional one. I think of the Elf comment in Lorien, "we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make," and I can't account for the Elves, even the Noldor Ring-Smiths, overlooking their love of trees when they made the rings.

Another perspective is that Galadriel had no problem using her water-ring to make an enchanted forest of trees, so maybe that love of trees is embedded in the Three. And the Three don't seem too one-dimensional, or Elrond's sky-ring would be expected to blast the Nazgul away with cyclonic winds rather than a river-flood. (And Gandalf, a fire-master, somehow added water effects to that same river flood and didn't call down a column of fire or whatever.) Maybe Elven reverence for Yavanna's domain was accounted for, just without any fanfare. I suppose you have to read the fine print on Ring labels to know for sure.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 20 2014, 8:06pm

Post #6 of 32 (3067 views)
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Traditional elements [In reply to] Can't Post

That gets tricky with Yavanna's title, doesn't it? I know they called her Queen of Earth, but I think of her as the queen of things that grow in the earth (plants) and the other things that eat the plants (animals). So she's the biosphere, and that would be a Fifth Element added to the traditional Four (I know the sci-fi movie by that name, but that includes yet another element).

Maybe Tolkien just liked the number 3, which shows up over and over in folk tales, and things were made to fit it. As one of many examples, think of how you're supposed to repeat a spell incantation 3 times for it to work. No one ever says it twice or four times.

He used 3 over and over in other ways, such as 3 houses of the Elves, 3 houses of the Edain, 3 tribes of hobbits, etc. He was really out of his comfort zone when he came up with 7 Sons of Feanor--the iconoclast!


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Aug 20 2014, 11:29pm

Post #7 of 32 (3035 views)
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A good question [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe Sauron had simply forgotten about Yavanna. He could forget about members of the Valar from time to time. And what was to be gained by this? Sauron had probably overlooked the existence of Ents entirely thinking them of no importance and he couldn't really tempt the trees into his power by offering them Rings!


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 20 2014, 11:53pm

Post #8 of 32 (3045 views)
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Sauron and the tree hugger [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree Sauron probably took little account of Yavanna. He was probably more intimidated by Valar like Orome and Tulkas who could do him serious harm in combat. (Just look what Orome's dog did to him.)

But the Elves were the makers of the Rings of Power with Sauron as advisor, so it seems that they were thinking of what they should be like, especially the Three, which were wholly Elven in creation and untouched by Sauron.

It's probably a good thing there wasn't a Ring devoted to Nienna. What if, instead of turning you invisible, it made you break out in tears every time you put it on?


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 21 2014, 12:35pm

Post #9 of 32 (3015 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the ultimate idea is that the Ring Ruse was an Elvish ruse, for Sauron [Of The Rings Of Power] needed no such subtlety to win over other races.

Thus all the Rings of Power were originally made for Elves -- but when the Ring Ruse failed [largely], Sauron came with war, took 16 and gave those out to Men and Dwarves, with possibly some further perversion before doing so.

To me the tale of the Dwarves -- who claim that at least one of their rings came directly from the Elves -- is a purposely conflicting internal tale, and ultimately false [if understandable]...

... if I were forced to choose Smile

That is, I think Tolkien purposely sets this up in the reader's mind: why indeed should the Elves give but one of the 'seven' to a Dwarf [although admittedly not just any Dwarf]? Eregion made for a close friendship, yes, but does this version really ring true [pun intended]?

Again not for me, although a master of the Secondary World like Tolkien gives readers at least one reason to argue the other side of this coin.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 21 2014, 12:41pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 21 2014, 12:45pm

Post #10 of 32 (3018 views)
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I think there was a Ring of Earth, at least... [In reply to] Can't Post

... in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings anyway Smile

If memory serves.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 21 2014, 1:00pm

Post #11 of 32 (3008 views)
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I'm lazy not to check the primary sources, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

... John Rateliff [History of The Hobbit] posted on the web, here with my emphasis:

'So, in my recent forays in Egyptology I was struck by a curious resemblance between the Quenya word KEMEN, meaning "Earth, soil" (as in the Ring of Earth, one of the Three Rings of the Elves in the LotR Mss), and KMT or Kemet, the ancient Egyptian name for their own land,* which means pretty much the same thing (soil, black earth).'

So I'm guessing: memory confirmed!


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 21 2014, 1:48pm

Post #12 of 32 (3037 views)
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The Three Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

There’s also no Elven Ring attributable to the fifth element, quintessence, the element that surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together. But in several alchemist and Kabbalist schools of thought, only the elements of Fire, Water, and Air are considered to be the building blocks. All others are derivatory.

Fire (pure), Water (pure), and Air (not so pure) crystallize together to make Earth, which is the least pure of the four elements.

Symbology-wise, Fire is the Father (Being), Water is the Mother (Knowledge), and Air is the Daughter (Bliss). Note also that Earth is considered the Son, but Jesus hasn't yet come to Middle-earth.

In the end, Fire is the most powerful element in Middle-earth. Fire transforms Air, Fire transforms Water, and Fire transforms Earth. It is Active as opposed to the Passive nature of Water. It is the most pure and most alive. It is transforming. It is creation. It is Logos. It extinguishes all things. It is eternal.

And it totally explains this quote:

As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly upon his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire.
-The Grey Havens

Narya the Great, indeed!

******************************************
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man pierced with many black-feathered arrows, must be in want of a funeral."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Aug 21 2014, 3:43pm

Post #13 of 32 (2991 views)
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Maybe the elves' Ring project was unfinished? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps more rings were originally planned, but once Sauron made The One, it was clear that any more rings would be a bad idea.

I completely just made that up BTW, so it's a retrofitted explanation, if it's any explanation at all.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Aug 21 2014, 5:22pm

Post #14 of 32 (2995 views)
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So we have Narya the Great, & Kemenya the Insignificant // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 21 2014, 5:34pm

Post #15 of 32 (2990 views)
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Actually Kemenya is pretty upbeat. [In reply to] Can't Post

If a little bit too auto-tuned...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsQrosrDkYw

******************************************
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man pierced with many black-feathered arrows, must be in want of a funeral."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 21 2014, 6:48pm

Post #16 of 32 (2984 views)
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Inflated titles [In reply to] Can't Post

If Narya was "the Great," and Vilya was "the mightiest of the Three," what do we call it? "Vilya the Mighty", or "Vilya the Mightiest/Greatest"? And when title does Nenya get? If it was greater than Narya but less than Vilya, was it "Nenya the Greater"?

All Rings want to feel special. Smile


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 21 2014, 7:57pm

Post #17 of 32 (2967 views)
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I'm sure they were just protoypes, [In reply to] Can't Post

and a mass-produced, boxed set holding 24 each was certain to follow, to appear in stores by holiday shopping time.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 21 2014, 7:59pm

Post #18 of 32 (2984 views)
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Great and Greaterer. [In reply to] Can't Post

Those were the rings of the Blue Wizards.

Also, if all rings are special, then none of them are.

******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.

-From the Völuspá, 13th Century


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 21 2014, 8:00pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Aug 21 2014, 8:05pm

Post #19 of 32 (2984 views)
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"Director's Cut" and "Collector's Special Edition" Rings are only to be expected…// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Elthir
Grey Havens

Aug 22 2014, 12:33pm

Post #20 of 32 (2962 views)
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There are no blue wizards... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but if there are, if both of them are blue then neither of them are especially blue.


Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea


Aug 22 2014, 2:19pm

Post #21 of 32 (2962 views)
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So the blue wizards are happy ... [In reply to] Can't Post

because they are special? No wait, they're blue because they aren't special anymore? No... that's not it.

Now why do I have a picture of two wizards singing this song as they walk out into the wilderness? Smile (Not sure who the back up singers are though...)



Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






Bracegirdle
Valinor


Aug 22 2014, 5:48pm

Post #22 of 32 (2936 views)
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No! They're BLUE because they're SAD [In reply to] Can't Post

and being held prisoner by Ray Charles in the Last Desert. CoolCool

“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 22 2014, 5:59pm

Post #23 of 32 (2953 views)
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"We're on a mission from Eru." [In reply to] Can't Post

Alatar: It's 10,000 furlongs to Rhûn, we got a full bottle of miruvor, half a pouch of pipeweed, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.

Pallando: Hit it.

******************************************
Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.
-Helm’s Deep, Chapter 7, Book III, The Two Towers



"Rorth Rorlingas!!"

Sauron: "And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling hobbits!"

(Thanks to Brethil for image and battlecry.)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Aug 22 2014, 6:11pm

Post #24 of 32 (2928 views)
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But, but - Legend has it that [In reply to] Can't Post

Pallando wore a Cobalt Blue Cloak
and Alatar wore a lighter colored Azure Cloak.

Therefore Pallando was MORE BLUE than Alatar.

Of this I know no more. Unsure

“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Aug 22 2014, 6:19pm

Post #25 of 32 (2989 views)
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Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van. [In reply to] Can't Post

Rich man, I dig.

Dude, those Vanagons were boss, like, hey, ya know, pop-top cool, everything but a pooper. Cool

“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."

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