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boldog
Rohan
Aug 18 2014, 6:22am
Post #1 of 34
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Does anyone realise that we have already seen a "battle of five armies"?
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This just dawned on me today!
The battle of the Pelennor fields in the Return of the King film, is basically a battle of five armies. And in saying five armies, these are actually very obvious, and well defined armies.
We had the Rohirim, Gondorians, Dead army, Haradrim, and the Orcs of Minas Morgul. And all of these are very well numbered armies.
Now going to the Hobbit, and the actual Battle of five armies, it kind of doesnt seem, to be as defined as Pelennor. Well we can definitely say that there is four obvious armies being The Elves of Mirkwood, Dwarves of Iron hills, Men of laketown, and Orcs of Gundabad.
Its just the fifth army, a.k.a the eagles which gets me thinking.
Are the eagles really an army? Throughout my whole childhood, and even going into adulthood, reading the hobbit, I never saw the eagles as an army. I just pictured them as a huge flock, who just come down to help. Kind of like how they do in the battle of the black gate. Really, when you think of it, they arent your "typical" army, and thats where I believe there is a little error. IMHO the Battle of the Pelennor fields, is a more suitable battle to be called the battle of five armies.
Thoughts? Preparing to be bombarded with disagreements 
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 6:45am
Post #2 of 34
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because in the book they can act alongside orcs/goblins, or they can act independently.
The wargs in the book communicate with each other through a system of gutteral growls and howls, and are an army all on their own. They simply have a symbiotic relationship with orcs and goblins, and in the movie with Azog you see both the supreme intelligence in the eyes of "daisy" (as Manu named her) and how she growls in very deliberate patterns as though she's speaking. And you also see the wargs- some being ridden, some not- acting under orders.
So the eagles weren't really counted as an army, and neither were the bats, though they were present. Neither was Beorn, and he was present too.
So the five armies listed as actual armies in the self same battle are:
Men
Elves
Dwarves
Wargs
Orcs/goblins
with extra help on either side from:
Beorn
Eagles
bats
Does that help clear it up for you? 
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boldog
Rohan
Aug 18 2014, 6:51am
Post #3 of 34
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But the same problem arises with the wargs. They arent really an army, just like the eagles, they seem to be just extra aid to the orcs. I basically just dont really consider, large numbers of animals, being called an army. They have no leader, No battle structure/tactics, no ranks, they are just animals!
Lol, but being in a fantasy world, i guess that leaves the possibilities endless....
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 7:17am
Post #4 of 34
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In Tolkien's Middle-earth, the wargs DID have a hierarchy, they did have commanders and subordinates, and they did conduct their own raids independent entirely of the orcs and are consistent with the types of raids done by orc armies.
In fact, in the book the company exit Goblin town and happen to stumble upon a group of ONLY wargs plotting to raid a woodsmen's village nearby. Here's the quotes from the book (bold mine- spelling and caps preserved):
"The glade in the ring of trees was evidently a meeting-place of the wolves. More and more kept coming in. They left guards at the foot of the tree in which Dori and Bilbo were, and then went snuffling about till they had smelt out every tree that had anyone in it. These they guarded too, while all the rest (hundreds and hundreds it seemed) went and sat in a great circle in the glade; and in the middle of the circle was a great grey wolf. He spoke to them in the dreadful language of the Wargs. Gandalf understood it. Bilbo did not, but it sounded terrible to him, and as if all their talk was about cruel and wicked things, as it was. Every now and then all the Wargs in the circle would answer their grey chief all together, and their dreadful clamour almost made the hobbit fall out of his pine-tree."
"The Wargs and the goblins often helped one another in wicked deeds. Goblins do not usually venture very far from their mountains, unless they are driven...But in those days they sometimes used to go on raids, especially to get food or slaves to work for them. Then they often got the Wargs to help and shared the plunder with them.....The wargs had come to meet the goblins and the goblins were late....In spite of the dangers of this far land bold men had of late been making their way back into it from the South....there were many of them, and they were brave and well-armed, and even the Wargs dared not attack them if there were many together....but now they planned with the goblins' help to come by night upon some of the villages nearest the mountains. If their plan had been carried out...."
"The Wargs were angry and puzzled at finding them here in their very meeting-place. They thought they were friends of the woodmen, and were come to spy on them..."
So based on these quotes, and specifically the parts I bolded (for your benefit), I can conclude this about the wargs:
Tolkien capitalizes Wargs- they're not just animals, but a distinct group.
They had a meeting place that they frequently used.
They took and guarded prisoners.
They had their own language, and Gandalf was able to understand it fluently.
They answered to a chief amongst the wargs- hence they have leadership amongst their own kind, and hierarchies.
They help the goblins, and the goblins help them- so in one instance, the goblins have the idea, and in others the wargs have the idea.
They shared plunder with goblins.
The wargs came to meet the goblins- they are not "kept by them" as beasts of burden. Also the wargs can apparently tell time, because they know the goblins are late.
The raid on the woodsmen's village was the warg's idea, and they enlisted the goblins to THEIR aid. So they are actually leading the plan over the goblins.
The wargs routinely make plans to skirmish/raid, and they carry them out.
The wargs are capable of feeling angry and frustrated, and show cunning and intelligent thought to military tactics (spying).
Sounds like the wargs are an army to me.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 7:22am
Post #5 of 34
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We might have seen A battle with five armies in it.....
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... but THE Battle of Five Armies is still to come. No getting round that.
And the fact is, however much we might debate who the five armies are in The Hobbit, and whatever your feelings might be about eagles, wargs, or anyone else involved, it IS the Battle of Five Armies 'cos that's what Tolkien called it - and it isn't a mistake, he meant it. He had some trouble deciding who the five were as well: at first he thought they might be five allies - elves, dwarves, eagles, men and bears - with two opposing armies, goblins and wolves. Finally he came down to elves, dwarves, men, goblins and wargs (so not counting the eagles - or, for that matter, bears, who had now been reduced to Beorn alone, or Bilbo or Gandalf). (It's discussed in Rateliff's The History of the Hobbit, in the chapter notes to 'The End of the Journey'.)
The fun thing is - and I love this in Tolkien's writing - having thought of the name he stays with it and imagines explanations for it. He doesn't just ditch it as a 'mistake'. Much more creative approach, I think.
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Aug 18 2014, 10:04am
Post #6 of 34
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I'm thinking the 'Five Armies' will be -
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- the Elves of Mrkwood led by Thranduil.
- the Men of Lake-Town led by Bard.
- the Dwarves led by Thorin.
vs
- the Orcs of Dol Guldur led by Azog and Bolg.
- the Goblins of Goblin Town.
The Goblins may be allied to the Orcs, but going by the Goblin King's words, I see them as a separate faction - at least to begin with. I also see them as a 'surprise' army. We already 'know' about Azog's army, but I think the Goblin King's former minions may arrive in an 'unexpected' manner - similar to that in the book, while the Dol Guldur forces travel in a more conventional manner.
I don't really count the Wargs, Bats and Eagles as separate armies in this case, and things could get even more complicated, if, for example, the White Council turns up accompanied by the Elves of Rivendell and Lorien in pursuit of the Necromancer and whatever undead minions he has tagging along (I've kind of mostly given up on predicting what happens in these movies, particularly the 'extra' scenes).
From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.
(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Aug 18 2014, 10:12am)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 12:43pm
Post #7 of 34
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after where they were fought? i.e. The Battle of the Bulge; Gettysburg, etc.
So it should have been “The Battle of Erebor”; or “The Battle of the Lonely Mountain”; or "The Battle on the Desolation of Smaug".
Or, if Tolkien wasn’t so stubborn it should have been:
“The Battle of Seven Armies”. (Doesn’t “ring” does it?)
Elves, Dwarves, Men, Wargs, Orcs/Goblins, Eagles, and Beorn (yes, he appeared to be an army (at least a platoon) unto himself). 
Or even, "The Battle of Two Armies" - The Good Guys vs The Bad Guys.
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 1:04pm
Post #8 of 34
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... I think the best way to make it work is counting the Evil side as one army and define the fifth army as the Eagles and Beorn (combined and arriving at the same time). Maybe with someone making a statement about a fifth party arriving (Gandalf would be the obvious candidate). With PJ mentioning unseen beasts the Orcs will bring to the battle, I could also see Beorn and the Eagles being accompanied by other creatures... maybe a last support sent by Radagast. Some sort of "nature standing up" against Sauron's forces. With nature meaning players in Middle-earth that usually wouldn't let themselves be tracked into these kind of conflicts.
They made too big a point of the Goblins not being able to walk in the sun and simply to re-introduce them would be too complicated and forced, imho.
The wargs have never been portrayed as an entitty of their own in the movies... they shouldn't start doing that now, imho. I agree with that.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Aug 18 2014, 1:08pm)
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DanielLB
Immortal
Aug 18 2014, 1:27pm
Post #9 of 34
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Reminds me of the Battles of Beleriand
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The First Battle of Beleriand, Dagor-nuin-Giliath, Dagor Aglareb, Dagor Bragollach and Nírnaeth Arnoediad. None of which state where the battle as fought.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 1:35pm
Post #10 of 34
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But they don't really have to make it work, do they?
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At least, they don't have to draw attention to it in the script - like having someone say, "Oh look, there are four armies here already [*details*] and here comes another. Better call it 'the Battle of the Five Armies'!"
They don't even have to use the name in the script at all. Simply, it IS the Battle of Five Armies because Tolkien said so. (Just imagine the fuss if they tried to change the name to 'The Battle of the Lonely Mountain' or something!  )
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 1:39pm
Post #11 of 34
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Dagor-nuin-Giliath was fought “beneath the stars” (a place? No? Sort of).
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 1:48pm
Post #12 of 34
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If they figure out an elegant way to at least hint at the name, I am fine with it. But before someone actually counts them I would also prefer them to not mention it.
I guess they will simply show the five armies distinctively enough... the four which begin the battle and then a fifth party arriving later and turning the tide (Eagles + Beorn).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Bishop
Gondor
Aug 18 2014, 2:12pm
Post #13 of 34
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How will Jackson resist writing a line for Gandalf. Something like "So we stand at the defining chapter of our age, Bilbo Baggins. The Battle of The Five Armies".
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 2:37pm
Post #14 of 34
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I'd find that quite easy to resist!
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Bishop
Gondor
Aug 18 2014, 2:42pm
Post #15 of 34
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Gentelemen's bet, Gandalf says the words "The Battle of the Five Armies"
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 2:51pm
Post #16 of 34
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I'm no gentleman, but who's counting.... 
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Bishop
Gondor
Aug 18 2014, 2:55pm
Post #17 of 34
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That's two bets I have going now with members of TORN. Hopefully there are many more to come.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Aug 18 2014, 9:30pm
Post #18 of 34
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Yep, and there were even more in the book...
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The films mostly left out the Easterlings, and completely cut out the Knights of Dol Amroth, the Variags of Khand and the Troll-men of Far Harad (and the small contingent of Dunedain Rangers too if you want to count them). On the flip-side of that, the Dead Men of Dunharrow did not appear at the Battle of Pelennor in the books, all they did was help Aragorn capture the Corsair ships.
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Aug 19 2014, 5:56pm
Post #19 of 34
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The term "The Battle of the Bulge" was named for the theoretical shape of the offensive, not for its location. However, none of the forces present at the conflict actually called it "The Battle of the Bulge". They all referred to it as the Ardennes Offensive or Defense of the Rhine or some such term. So while the term that we refer to the battle as doesn't support the geography argument, other (arguably more official) names for the battle DO support it.
I'm thinking a similar pattern happened for the naming of the Battle of Five Armies. The troops present would refer to it by various names (Siege of Erebor (elves&men), Defense of Erebor (dwarves), Operation Who's Your Daddy (Azog/Bolg)), but ultimately we refer to it by Bilbo's expression (the Battle of Five Armies) because he is our primary source for the narrative.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 19 2014, 8:25pm
Post #20 of 34
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Aren’t most battles named after where they were fought? i.e. The Battle of the Bulge; Gettysburg, etc. So it should have been “The Battle of Erebor”; or “The Battle of the Lonely Mountain”; or "The Battle on the Desolation of Smaug".
- The Battle of Sudden Flame
- The Battle of the Powers/War of the Powers
- The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
- The War of the Dwarves and Orcs
- The War of the Elves and Sauron
- The War of the Great Jewels/War of the Jewels
- The War of the Ring
- The War of Wrath
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Aug 19 2014, 8:43pm
Post #21 of 34
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Just recently I was thinking back to the Hobbit and realized the five armies are not clearly defined at all!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 19 2014, 8:46pm
Post #22 of 34
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Or The Lord of the Rings.
Tolkien loved ambiguity.
(But at least it's pretty clear who The Fellowship of the Ring are.)
******************************************
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man pierced with many black-feathered arrows, must be in want of a funeral."
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 19 2014, 8:48pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 19 2014, 8:47pm
Post #23 of 34
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It’s a strange thing, but when I said “Battle of the Bulge” I had in my mind a picture of Mirkwood and the narrows (which would be a place, although not a “narrowed-down” place). Strange how the Tolkienite’s mind works sometimes eh?
Thanks for the correction, but you caught my meaning.
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 19 2014, 9:02pm
Post #24 of 34
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How 'bout
- The Battle of Dagorlad
- The Battle of Azanulbizar
- The Battle of Bywater
- The Battle of Dale
- The Battle of Fornost
- The Battle of the Peak
- The Battle of the Greenfields
- More, more, more & etc.
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 19 2014, 9:05pm
Post #25 of 34
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Yes, Tolkien does also use the more traditional form, but that wasn't the point.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Aha . .
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