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A lot of work went into building the statue of Thror and the stair leading...
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2014, 11:21pm

Post #1 of 36 (3061 views)
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A lot of work went into building the statue of Thror and the stair leading... Can't Post

(FILM not BOOK) to the secret door. It's interesting how this door is so "secret" yet there had to have been lots of dwarves which built the stairway and the door. Thorin was in a very high position of power, it's interesting why no-one would have told him about it.


The flames of war are upon you..

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Aug 17 2014, 11:22pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 17 2014, 11:28pm

Post #2 of 36 (2596 views)
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It's probably not wise to delve too deeply [In reply to] Can't Post

Into the mechanisms of the secret door. After all, why would you want one you can only open on a certain day, not even once a year? What if you wanted to use it on another day. Or what happens if the Thrush gets eaten by a kestrel or some such? Safe to say it is a strange thing.


Glassary
Rivendell


Aug 17 2014, 11:31pm

Post #3 of 36 (2524 views)
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Also the secret stair? [In reply to] Can't Post

Again something you have to take with a grain of salt was the idea that none of the dwarves knew where the
stairs were. Anyone who walked to the side of the statues would see the stairs.
Guess the dwarves didn't get out much?


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2014, 11:32pm

Post #4 of 36 (2566 views)
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for the same reason the moon-runes are on the map! LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

say a orc captured the map and the key, he still would have to read the moon-runes which not even gandalf could do! Why would you make a secret door if anyone could capture the map and key and than open it ?? The moon-runes are there as a fail-safe.


The flames of war are upon you..


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2014, 11:33pm

Post #5 of 36 (2514 views)
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sure you could climb the stairs but than what ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

you have to be standing there on durin's day and wait for the moon to shine on the key hole. The only way you could know that is if you read the moon-runes.


The flames of war are upon you..


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 17 2014, 11:36pm

Post #6 of 36 (2538 views)
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Oh it's certainly secure. [In reply to] Can't Post

But it's a bit like having a spare car key which only opens the car on the second Tuesday in December in odd numbered years after rubbing it on a magic fox and pressing the button four times by the light of a gibbous moon.

Certainly secure but rather impractical for the rightful owner don't you think?


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2014, 12:08am

Post #7 of 36 (2514 views)
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the moon-runes are to make sure the right "company" [In reply to] Can't Post

enters the mountain, seems logical to me.


The flames of war are upon you..


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2014, 12:21am

Post #8 of 36 (2509 views)
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It's a wee bit lucky on that score too [In reply to] Can't Post

Given that Thorin didn't know about them.

You think this is a logical system for a spare key? Tell me you don't work as a locksmith!

My own favorite element of the system is the little thrush checking his feathery calendar and popping down for his Durin's Day task to knock, knock, knock over all those intervening decades. Once the little bit of rock has flaked off and the last light has faded with no key-bearing dwarves having turned up, he mixes up a bit of lime mortar with his little beak, grasps his little avian trowel and cracks on with plastering over the keyhole again in preparation for next time.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Aug 18 2014, 12:32am)


Retro315
Rivendell

Aug 18 2014, 1:00am

Post #9 of 36 (2482 views)
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Regarding stairs [In reply to] Can't Post

I viewed it a bit differently, actually. Not to say I didn't recognize the stairs in that towering statue as "stair-like", but between the climbs on the lower rocky crags and the sheerness of each "step", I really saw the whole operation of getting up that statue as more of a "mountaineering" moment, like in the book, than some sort of "secret stairway".

A closer camera shot of the dwarves requiring ropes and hoisting one another might've helped sell that notion.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Aug 18 2014, 2:45am

Post #10 of 36 (2462 views)
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Agree with you Spriggan [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as the mystery of the secret door goes...I love it all, but it doesn't make sense. Durin's day, secret door and all, it just doesn't add up. But you have to admit it is all very interesting.

P.S. LOL! Plastering over the keyhole with his little beak! Genius! Sly

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Aug 18 2014, 2:45am)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 18 2014, 5:17am

Post #11 of 36 (2463 views)
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Here's my theory on that... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that door was created as a contingency plan in case of total disaster, not as a general utility backdoor. After all, all the great dwarf kingdoms prior had fallen to enemies at some point, and Thror I himself came to the Lonely Mountain after having been driven out of the North. Whatever enemy took over the Mountain - dragon, orcs, or whatever, would not know about the secret door. The royal line would keep the map and key and pass it down from father to son, and when the time was right would have an almost undetectable way in at an appointed time by which they could ambush their enemy in his complacency and reclaim their kingdom.

From the book:


Quote
"The few of us that were well outside sat and wept in hiding, and cursed Smaug; and there we were unexpectedly joined by my father and my grandfather with singed beards. They looked very grim but said little. When I asked how they had got away, they told me to hold my tongue, and said that one day in the proper time I should know."

"I have often wondered about my father's and my grandfather's escape. I see now they must have had a private Side-door which only they knew about. But apparently they made a map, and I should like to know how Gandalf got hold of it, and why it did not come down to me, the rightful heir."


Durin's Day definitely does not happen every year (in the book at least), since the dwarves say it's now beyond their ability to tell when such a time will come again. So I'm thinking the door was timed by the makers. Once locked and sealed, it would not be able to be found and unlocked again until Durin's Day next, when the particular combination of the light of Durin's Day and the knocking of the thrush would unseal the keyhole. It seems in keeping with the sort of astronomy behind the moon runes, which could only be read by the light of the same moon as when they were written.

In the book, the "little bay" in the side of the mountain has lots of snails climbing over the grey stone. It's a perfect place for a thrush to live, and for its descendants to live. There would always be thrushes there. And thrushes eat snails by knocking them against stones. So a thrush knocks there often. It's just that the timing of it needs to coincide with the last light of Durin's Day. In the book, a splinter of rock cracks off the rock face to reveal the keyhole. So let's say that the secret of the dwarf door is that the particular timing and light of Durin's Day activates/weakens something in the spell/technique used to cover the keyhole and conceal the door and then the vibration of a thrush knocking loosens the keyhole cover and causes it to fall. So the door and the map were planned together - the door was locked and concealed by a spell/technique timed to Durin's Day, and the map was written by a moon which would recur a certain time before the next (each?) Durin's Day, ensuring that nobody would be able to decipher it until the time was at hand. The "science" of the ancient dwarves is kind of like Elf "magic" - it's all in the know-how.

Presumably after Durin's Day when the keyhole has been revealed the way in might be findable - if someone had the map and key, could discover and read the moon runes, found the door, and could identify the small hole in the rock as a keyhole. But it could not be opened before that time and the chances of anyone other than one of the royal heirs having all those elements together was very small indeed. If no enemy had attacked and all was well, the King in power would simply have to re-seal the keyhole after Durin's Day to re-set the timer and continue to pass the secret down the line. Perhaps even the spells needed to do it would be passed as part of the knowledge to the new Heir Apparent as each king took the throne.

I suppose Durin's Day might be analogous to a Dwarven Year of Jubilee; the year in ancient Israel when slaves were freed, lost or sold land was returned to the family, and debts were forgiven. It came once every 50 years. For the Dwarves, Durin's Day, whatever its particular cycle, may function as a sort of kingdom-reset button. Has your kingdom been overrun and you've been exiled? On Durin's Day, you can come to win it back. This also could explain the prophecy of Laketown; no matter what, the Mountain-king was expected to return, and to restore the kingdom and the prosperity of the region. This did happen, though sadly Thorin's stubbornness and dragon-sickness meant that it could not be fully fulfilled by him, and it was left to Dain to distribute treasure and preside over the restoration of Erebor and see the reestablishment of Dale.

Silverlode



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Cirashala
Valinor


Aug 18 2014, 6:09am

Post #12 of 36 (2406 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin was third in line to the throne at the time that Thrain went missing and Thror was killed. If the knowledge is, as stated by Silverlode, only passed on to the crown prince/heir apparent/whatever they call second in line, then in one fell swoop Thorin went from third to first and didn't get the chance to hear it before Thrain disappeared. Though given the battle, you'd think that sort of thing would have been exchanged before it (unless arrogance/invincibility reigned in their minds at the time, which given the dragon sickness may have been likely).

As for the rest of the interesting ideas through here:

Durin's day, at least in the movie, is supposedly the start of the dwarves' new year, implying that it happens every year. And the dwarves are trying to get IN, not out.

The door clearly doesn't open from the outside unless all of the elements are adding up- key, map with moon runes readable, light of the moon on Durin's day (what if it was cloudy and there was no moon?) and the thrush (though that clue may be, as some suggested, simply there because thrushes were common in that particular area of the mountain., or in the region and found on rocky outcroppings).

However- what if it is able to be opened at any time from the inside? That would explain both book and movie issues with the whole "Durin's day" thing (plus I like to think that it was Thorin's only chance because he was being hunted in the movie, not because a "new year's day" for the dwarves wouldn't happen for an indeterminable amount of time-else calling it a "dwarves' new year would be rather dumb, I think). He wouldn't be able to elude Azog/Bolg forever, nor would he be able to elude bounty hunters either. One was bound to catch up to him sooner or later, and it's not like he could risk being near the mountain or in any one spot for any length of time without being found, attacked, and possibly killed.

That also explains how Thrain and Thror (in the book) were able to escape on the very day Smaug came. I don't know if the dragon came on Durin's day specifically, but having a door out of the mountain- a secret back door that only opens once a year, or more- would be rather stupid if you were on the inside trying to get out. I think having it be hard to enter, but not hard to exit, makes more sense for an emergency exit of sorts. So if you're inside, opening it to get out is no biggie, but if you're on the outside it's a far different story Smile



MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2014, 6:15am

Post #13 of 36 (2396 views)
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well yes it would make sense that the door works as a backdoor [In reply to] Can't Post

and a front door. Regardless, in the film the statue of Thror is gigantic and why build a stairway inside the statue that leads to nothing??


The flames of war are upon you..


Cirashala
Valinor


Aug 18 2014, 6:38am

Post #14 of 36 (2397 views)
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But if you look at it it doesn't look like stairs at first [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure if the stairs all led one way maybe, but if you look closely they can only go up three or four gigantic "steps" before they're faced with having to turn and try to jump or rappel to the other side.

If anything in these movies has made me think of a video game, the "stairway" does- it looks like something from Mario (and this is sad, because I don't really play video games- didn't have them growing up and only recently got into halo and have seen my younger siblings in law playing Mario). In real life (or in ME I suppose) a maze like that would be extremely difficult to climb up, I think.

Here's a pic for reference:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/...mP1qgxp1qo1_1280.jpg

You have to zoom in to see it clearly (in the red circle- glad I found this pic already circled to the spot I wanted to show you!), but the step right below where they come closest together has the dwarf's head (or possibly Bilbo's- it's hard to make out for sure who it is) at the bottom and clearly at least two or three feet under the next stair step! So either they jumped, and pulled themselves up from literally having a fingertip hold on it, or they had to climb up each other a la Laketown armory, or they had to use ropes.

It wasn't as simple as climbing stairs. Plus, when you consider that there was another set of zig zags on the front of the same statue, that ends abruptly, it wouldn't be visible to the eye that it was a path leading up unless someone already knew there was something up there in that approximate location.



Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2014, 9:39am

Post #15 of 36 (2346 views)
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I like this in case they would have to use ropes is more close to the book, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that from side to side there is a mini passage to go from side to side of the stairs, its difficult to me to explain it in spanish in english I have no clueXD

But in the case of the mace I think there is a stair way inside the statue to go from the stairs to the axe

But your theory about using ropes I like best, I would like to see this in the EE in order to make it harder to climb



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2014, 9:50am

Post #16 of 36 (2345 views)
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It sounds so simple [In reply to] Can't Post

When you put it like that!

It's fun for a children's book but just doesn't stand much prodding ( though the prodding is only in fun and not an issue for the tale).

It does always make me wonder, if Tolkien had simply written a key and a magic word .... And the adaptors had added the rest of elements, whether people's views on how logical a system it was would change...

Just as thought in the "at least one Durin's Day but then whenever you want" idea, would the fact that several Durin's Days had passed (without anyone to reset) since the fall of Erebor in TH and the keyhole was not already revealed suggest this wasn't the case?


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Aug 18 2014, 9:51am)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 18 2014, 10:57am

Post #17 of 36 (2384 views)
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No, I don't think so.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think people sometimes get a little muddled about the exact meaning of Durin's Day:

Quote
"Then what is Durin's Day?" asked Elrond.

"The first day of the dwarves' New Year," said Thorin, "is as all should know the first day of the last moon of Autumn on the threshold of Winter. We still call it Durin's Day when the the last moon of Autumn and the sun are in the sky together. But this will not help us much, I fear, for it passes our skill in these days to guess when such a time will come again."

It seems some read this as saying that every Dwarven New Year is Durin's Day, but it's not. The dwarves have a New Year every year on the first day of the last moon of Autumn, but it's a Durin's Day only when moonrise is before sunset on that day and both sun and moon can be seen in the sky together. That's the specific timing, and that happens only rarely.

So since Durin's Day is tied to the time of moonrise, moon runes tied to a particular moon make perfect sense to write the keyhole's location on the map to make them readable at the right time - a crescent moon on Midsummer's Eve, according to Elrond. I'm assuming that those who made the door and could calculate Durin's Day could, by the same calculations, work out what phase the moon would be in on Midsummer's Eve of that year, giving the royal heir 5-6 months to get himself and his forces prepared for a secret assault.

At the time of Thorin's expedition to Erebor, 171 years had passed since Smaug's arrival, and Thorin was old enough to remember it well. If Durin's Day came more often than once in a lifetime, it seems unlikely that the dwarves wouldn't be able to predict it easily. In fact, from what Thorin and Elrond said, it seems it's considerably longer than that. But if Durin's Day comes every....oh, let's say 300-500 years, then the timing would mean that a King Under the Mountain who lost his domain would expect his son or grandson to be able to get in the door and mount a surprise attack on the enemy. Two generations isn't too long for a secret to be well remembered.

Since the rock hadn't flaked off, it indicates that Durin's Day hadn't come during those 171 years. But even if we assumed that multiple Durin's Days were to come and go before an heir of the royal line returned, all that would happen is that a small flake of rock would crack off and leave a quite small hole in a very remote and difficult-to-reach section of the side of the Mountain with no one to see it happen and mark the spot. After all, the door just looks like a rock wall until it's opened. Even though anyone could read the regular runes and know the general location of the door, someone would still have to decode the moon runes to find the right spot (stand by the grey stone) and be there at exactly the right time to see "the last light of Durin's Day shine upon the keyhole" in order to find it and they would have to have the key with them.

I like to imagine that somewhere in the deepest chambers of Erebor, there's a secret room which none but the King knows about or can enter, with charts of moon phases carved on the walls, and the great rite of passage for each Dwarven Prince is when his father the newly crowned King Under the Mountain takes him down there and shows him the charts, the map, and the key, and tells him the secret of the Last Defense of Erebor. Cool

Silverlode



Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here!

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Bombadil
Half-elven


Aug 18 2014, 1:31pm

Post #18 of 36 (2310 views)
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We may be getting closer to the Answer..? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a picture of Martin wearing
a length of ROPE!

Soo some extra shots in the Extended Edition may
SHOW the Dwarves
Boosting up Bilbo
when they
Begin their climb?

Like they Boosted Bilbo to get
@ the Weapons in Laketown

The maze-like stairs
might be a small feature
we haven't seen yet?

Extending this
izzz... likely?

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2014, 2:11pm

Post #19 of 36 (2285 views)
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I would have loved hear this explained by some of the characters [In reply to] Can't Post

In DoS there are some moments of mere exposition were Bilbo or Thorin or others say that they must find the hidden door before Durin´s day. In the movie (and book) it sounds like they could wait to the next year to do that if they fail this time. It would had add more tension and a special (and astronomical) sense of prophecy to the quest, and the trush and all that wich I enjoyed at the end of AUJ



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2014, 4:13pm

Post #20 of 36 (2265 views)
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Oh you could have it that way but that's even worse! [In reply to] Can't Post

If Durin's Day doesn't occur every couple of years but every couple of centuries, then you have designed a system where you have a back door in case of disaster or enemy conquest, but one which guarantees the enemy 200 years' free reign!

Why anyone would want the enforced delay is mysterious, but it's even more puzzling in that it is random. Since there is no particular date or year in which an attack is more likely, then it might be 200 years or it could be that the next Durin's Day is tomorrow. What would you want that for?

I was also thinking that the trouble with an "at least one Durin's Day but then whenever you want" model is it rather takes away from the urgency of the quest. Now this could just be Thorin's ignorance but it would spoil it for me a bit if, in fact, they could have turned up whenever they wanted, as long as they weren't early.

I like the idea of the incrementally flaking wall (like a less misogynist version of those peanut boards they used to have in pubs!) but why design that? Why not just have a panel of rock that opens and closes?

The moon letters are also rather odd when you think about it. If there was usually a briefing for the new heir, as you suggest, then why not just tell him? Saying that it's on the map but here's how to read it doesn't add any security and it's not so complex a message that you would need it written down. If it is supposed to be a fail safe for a missed briefing, then it's not a very helpful one since Thorin (the rightful user whom it was designed for) had no idea he should be thinking of moon letters and only random chance, or fate, helped him.

I suppose you could take the fate argument. That, in fact, the mechanics don't matter and it will all just work for the right guy. But then why have the steps at all - why not just design a fate-driven door that only opens for the rightful king (a la sword in the stone)?

I mean the real answer is surely that it would make for a duller story (which is a great reason in my book) but it is pretty impossible to see it as a logical system outside of that, I think. Not, as I say that I think this is an issue. It's more than fine for a fantasy children's story.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2014, 5:11pm

Post #21 of 36 (2260 views)
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And what's even worse than that.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is having given your enemy free reign for anywhere between two and several hundred years, by your own plan, the door you designed to be so massively inaccessible from the outside is easily discoverable from the inside, where your enemy now is!

So you would be waiting with your fingers and toes crossed, that at no point in those hundreds of years would your enemy potter up the corridor which opens (seemingly without even an ordinary door) into the main hall, and decide to block up your secret entrance from the inside.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Aug 18 2014, 5:12pm)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 18 2014, 11:41pm

Post #22 of 36 (2209 views)
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LOL, well [In reply to] Can't Post

it seems your objections are clearly rooted in Tolkien's decisions even more than my rationalizing of possible motives in-story. Because Tolkien himself established that the door needs that certain set of very rare occurrences to be opened, and also that Durin's Day happens only at long intervals and at this time is unpredictable. This is what gives it the sense of Destiny - it can only happen if it's meant to, as opposed to some other thing that has been available all this time and nobody chose to take advantage of it. Yes, it's a fairy-tale construction, and I'm just having fun inventing a line of reasoning which might account for it. Smile

Dwarves have long memories, and a history of being driven out of their kingdoms. What became of all the great dwarven realms of history? Lost beyond reclaim, all of them. As to letting invaders hold sway for a long period of time - if they were strong enough to overcome the city's defenses in the first place, they would devastate the fighting might of the resident dwarven population in the process and so they'll be plenty strong enough to retain them against even a large force of dwarves while they're still on their guard. The Balrog kept dwarves out of Moria for 500 years until Gandalf took it down. It doesn't seem that much of a stretch to me that a people with such a history might design a failsafe that would allow their people to regroup and return a generation or two later to their historical home. The point of this is a contingency plan for the very worst possible scenario, which Smaug was. It's only for use when literally everything else fails and there is no hope of success by other means. If you can fight by other means, you would obviously do so. But when everything is completely lost, at least it's not lost in perpetuity. Better late than never, and there's still a possible legacy for the grandkids.

They know well the impossibility of retaking their Mountain by a frontal assault at the main gate - after all, even in this story we will see 13 dwarves in a position to man a wall and make a whole army pause - at least for a time. And there can be great tactical advantages in having a way in for one or two invaders; it harks back to the medieval strategy of trying to get one or two men inside a walled city to try to open the gate and let the main army in - sort of the reverse of the sally port that Aragorn and Gimli came out of in the Battle of Helm's Deep.

Yes, the tunnel opens into the "great bottommost cellar or dungeon-hall", but its very un-hiddenness looks innocent. We're given Smaug's thoughts on it. "Could there be a draught from that little hole? He had never felt quite happy about it, though it was so small, and now he glared at it in suspicion and wondered why he had never blocked it up." It looked like nothing important, it was too small for him to get up, so he never thought about it. Other enemies, such as orcs, if they had been able to overrun the Mountain, would certainly have gone up the tunnel to check it out, but....was the door really obvious from the inside?

What if the door wasn't carved and decorated as in the movie, and like the outside, merely looked like a rock wall from inside? It would look more like a ventilation shaft than an entrance, and if one plans to live inside a Mountain one can't go around blocking all the ventilation off. I bet there was a secret to opening the door from the inside as well. In the book, when the dwarves go into the tunnel and shut the door against Smaug's attack, "...it closed with a snap and a clang. No trace of a keyhole was there left on the inside. They were shut in the Mountain!" It sounds to me that, though there must have been a way to open the door from the inside, since Thror and Thrain escaped by it, it wasn't immediately apparent to all. Maybe the key was required from the inside as well, and something had to be done to reveal the keyhole before it could be used, since it isn't visible when the door closes on Thorin's company. If that were the case, the door, even if found, could only be opened by someone who knew the trick and held the key.

Well, that's my best stab at a workable explanation, given the situation Tolkien established. I find it sufficiently plausible to live with, though your mileage may vary. Cool

Silverlode



Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here!

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2014, 12:07am

Post #23 of 36 (2195 views)
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Ha - I'm very pleased you are having fun thinking about it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

As I am too, if from the other side of the secret door, as it were. And a game series of attempts it is too, if I may say.

I don't have any worry about designing something that works for a long time and gives the dwarves the option to return at a later date. It is the designing of something that enforces it (and only does that on a random basis - after all these hypothetical invaders might have turned up the week before Durin's Day). No credible designer could possibly want to take the choice of timing away from the ousted dwarves and place it in the hands of astrology!

I fully agree it's a grand idea, and as you say one that has real world and other fictional precedents. But never, and correct me if I'm wrong, one with a 200 - 500 year self-imposed time lock on it!

Ah the old sealed ventilation shaft ruse - well, as I say, you'd need your fingers crossed. Again those dwarvish designers liking to live masochistically though, given that you argue they can equally successfully disguise the door from the inside, it does rather make one wonder why they wouldn't have done that at the bottom of the tunnel instead and avoid those orcs wandering up it in the first place.

I'm more than happy living with it - in fact it causes me no problems. It doesn't really make any logical or plausible sense if you think about it but that's not a worry because neither the book nor the film asks you to.

The only aspect I would struggle with is the idea that, out of all this, it might be the stairs which are the implausible bit!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 19 2014, 4:47am

Post #24 of 36 (2180 views)
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Huh? [In reply to] Can't Post

the front gate was sealed and there's a living dragon inside erebor, what enemy would venture there with no way inside and would be surely incinerated upon finding the treasure?? The secret door was created to only allow dwarves back inside the mountain if a enemy took over the mountain like with moria.


The flames of war are upon you..

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Aug 19 2014, 4:49am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 19 2014, 4:48am

Post #25 of 36 (2184 views)
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the secret door does make sense [In reply to] Can't Post

the statue of Thror with a stairway carved inside it however does not and negates the "secret" aspect to the door. You are mixing apples and oranges here.


The flames of war are upon you..

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