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NateGate
Rivendell
Aug 17 2014, 9:10pm
Post #1 of 42
(1465 views)
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Do yourself a favor...
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Try this for once....sit down, turn on AUJ or DOS (Bluray required) and try to sit down and ENJOY IT. Don't try to hyper analyze the plot, the scripts, the CGI, or anything. Just sit down and watch the movie. I did this for the first time last night, watched both movies as a casual movie goer instead of a ruthless critic, and I cannot tell you how massively satisfying it was. I got up thinking, "Wow, I really enjoyed those AWESOME films." What has happened in this day of age that people can no longer do this? Everyone treats themselves as some kind of mini critic who's job is to analyze these films for continuity, loyalty to the book, good CGI, etc. instead of just enjoying them for the masterpieces that they are. I think this is the reason that LOTR was so enjoyable to many of us. When the Fellowship of the Ring was first released, no one had any REAL expectations. Some vague thoughts about loyalty to the books, but other than that, nothing. And we all loved LOTR, all 3 films. Yet with the Hobbit, we come into the same world 60 years earlier with HUGE expectations. This is a mistake, it ruins any sort of enjoyment whatsoever.
When I put myself in this frame of mind, I actually find myself totally immersed in the world of Tolkein, even confusing some of the CGI for prosthetics in certain scenes. Trust me, you can leave the theater or your TV room couch feeling SO much better if you treat this film for what it is, a movie, instead of a homework assignment. Forget the technicalities of everything, leave the whining and complaining to the real critics. For now, rewatch both films as an average movie-goer, and tell me how much more enjoyable it was. Thoughts?
Size matters...
http://37.media.tumblr.com/00bbfb5c354255e11cd8386374b03bbe/tumblr_n5p4jtJVNT1siq18no1_1280.jpg
(This post was edited by NateGate on Aug 17 2014, 9:12pm)
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Aug 17 2014, 9:15pm
Post #2 of 42
(775 views)
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I'm definitely open to trying!
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I plan on trying to rent a of DOS copy soon, (I make myself wait to only buy the extended editions), and watch it again for fun.
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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 17 2014, 9:32pm
Post #3 of 42
(770 views)
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... I expect a movie to catch me in whatever mood I am in (sure, there are some moods that can really affect how I see a film - but a good movie should be able to neutralize most normal state of minds, imho).
And TH did that - for the most part. They are great movies to bring you to Middle-earth - and despite being blockbusters they imho give you more than all the Marcel-DC-superhero "events" that are clearly "the thing" right now.
But one is making it wayyyyy to easy for oneself if one simply connects criticism of these movies to OTT expectations (this idea already crumbles when one remembers that not all people loved LotR... and that LotR was met with huge expectations by some people, just as much as TH. I certainly watched LotR with much bigger hopes - as I never warmed to TH as a book). Those generalizations are no good imho.
You are imho also making a mistake in saying "enjoy them for the masterpieces that they are". Even if you bring yourself to the mindset you describe, it is still possible to spot issues or flaws you discover or simpy personally feel are there. If that is not possible anymore it would mean that you somehow brought you to a state of mind that leaves no room for fair criticism anymore. Which would be horrible... I do not want to be that kind of audience. I also find it to be impossible to fully let go of all the ties to Tolkien, discussion e.g. on these boards or other movies or expectations one might have. I think one is fooling oneself to believe that this is really possible - at least to 100%.
I do think that - especially in the internet - there is a lot of cynic critcizing going on (movies just being one example). And I agree with you that this kind of criticism is better left outside of the theatre.
There are people who really wanted to like these movies and still didn't. There are people disliking both LotR and TH - whether they watched them as hyper-critics or not. The list continues... It is great you found a way that makes you enjoy these movies even more. And I am sure there are people who indeed ruin the watching experience with being overly critical or also by other things such as spoiling. But people have issues with these movies that go beyond expectations or the wrong "mind-set".
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Aug 17 2014, 9:38pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 9:35pm
Post #4 of 42
(736 views)
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I don't find much pleasure in switching off critical thinking as a viewer but I agree that continuity, CGI, snap-"loyalty" etc. are of very little interest to me. For me, this is the the way in which we think about karaoke, rathe than a cover song, or a 12 year old's drawing rather than a piece of contemporary art.
But I think there is great interest in being critical - with the questions of that do the films have to say about the story, what new ways can I think about them and how does the new experience challenge previous thoughts.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Aug 17 2014, 9:36pm)
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Bishop
Gondor
Aug 17 2014, 9:41pm
Post #5 of 42
(728 views)
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Are you able to do this with any film of any quality? If not, why?
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Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan
Aug 17 2014, 11:22pm
Post #6 of 42
(678 views)
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I've tried. But these films are ridiculous.
I brought DOS on blu ray months ago and still haven't watched it. Tried to recently and didn't get far.
Terrible films are terrible no mater how you try and spin it.
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Elessar
Valinor
Aug 17 2014, 11:28pm
Post #7 of 42
(656 views)
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Been enjoying it since they came out
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and like the LOTR films they help drag me out of bad moods because of for how well done they are.
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 11:41pm
Post #8 of 42
(630 views)
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Both LOTR and The Hobbit are my happy place. I love them both. I enjoy them both. I could watch them again and again and again and again and I'm really really really looking forward to BotFA.
"Home is behind the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight.
Mist and shadow
Cloud and shade
All shall fade
All shall fade"
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Elessar
Valinor
Aug 17 2014, 11:43pm
Post #9 of 42
(622 views)
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I actually have to force myself in a way to limit my viewings.
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Aug 18 2014, 12:30am
Post #10 of 42
(626 views)
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being high on Old Toby also helps
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just viewing them as prequels to the lotr movies while under the influence of the halflings Leaf is the best way to appretiate these movies for what they are.
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NamoMandos
The Shire
Aug 18 2014, 1:57am
Post #11 of 42
(645 views)
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Is not due to over-analysis or ill will. It is due primarily to the fact that I find almost no real emotional depth in these films, as well as a host of other serious flaws. This was my response when I first saw them in theatres and it has not changed upon repeat viewings.
Bottom line: I do not like these films and think there are many valid reasons for this. For those who enjoy them, great. I certainly enjoy films that other people dislike. But those of us who do not enjoy them are not viewing them improperly - we just have a different perspective.
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burgahobbit
Rohan
Aug 18 2014, 2:34am
Post #12 of 42
(612 views)
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I did this on my first viewing of DOS
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It was my favorite viewing as well. Of course I still noticed things that bothered me, but I kind of just laughed them off. "There goes PJ." And just kept enjoying the fun film.
Since then I haven't been able to enjoy the film as much. I've tried, but I can't help but notice the giant empty holes in the story where the book had something great (sorry, but that's how I feel in many scenes. Particularly, the absence of Bilbo and Smaug's conversation having any real meaning. In the books, Bilbo uses his wits to find Smaug's weakness. Smaug's own pride ends up revealing it, and later on this is critical to the story. In the films Bilbo simply gets caught red handed and has to lie his way out of it while still retrieving the Arkenstone. It's still complicated and clever, and the part where Smaug tries to turn Bilbo against Thorin is wonderfully done, but as in Mirkwood, so much good material was just completely left out.) I still try to enjoy the film, but I just can't as much. The first time in I feel like I had less knowledge and so I was more content with what I had. I wasn't paying attention to exactly what was and what wasn't consistent with the book. But once I've seen it a few times my brain can't help but work! And also, my curiosity gets the better of me. I just have to see how it is in the book, and when it is so much better, I can't help but feel a loss every time it is skipped over or changed in the film.
In AUJ, my experience has been totally different. On my first viewing I sat down with huge expectations. I was let down. Azog looked ridiculous, and the story was drawn out and just didn't feel like what the Hobbit was supposed to feel like to me. But as I continued to watch it, it began to grow on me a lot, and I began to notice a lot of the hidden messages lying within the film. Some were from the book, some introduced by the filmmakers. The message of self sacrifice, for instance, when Bilbo jumps in to save Thorin as Gandalf had said, "He has a lot to offer...including himself." And there are other messages far more subtle all throughout which I have either been able to find or which have been pointed out to me. In DOS, I can't find these. Tauriel's determination to step outside Thranduil's "own little world" and help people is something quite good, but besides that there's just a lot of conflict and no real subtance to the scenes. So as I go deeper and deeper into AUJ, I find it more and more intriguing, and also more enjoyable as I get used to things like Azog and the Great Goblin's "That'll do it." and focus more on the subtle things within the film. But as I go deeper into DOS, I find it rather hollow. If it's what's on the inside that counts, I'd say AUJ definitely wins.
Now after ALL of that...I'd like to say, NateGate, what I have to say in response to your good post: I believe you are right. We are all way to critical for movies now a days, and I do try to avoid being that way. However, DOS just doesn't sit well for me, and no matter how much I try to enjoy it, I just can't anymore. There's still a lot that I like, but I can't get myself to watch DOS, look at it as a whole, and say "That was awesome!" like I could after the fist viewing when I didn't realize just how much had been lost. As far as bad CGI and all that goes, I don't feel like that's important to the story and so it doesn't bother me that much. But I can understand people who can't get past it. Just like I can't get past the loss of wonderful literary devices and hidden morals within the book, I can see how people who are more sensitive to CGI and things looking real would not be able to get past the unbelievable look of some things, and thus would not be able to enjoy the films. So I agree that it shouldn't be treated as a homework assignment, but I also think that certain problems just can't be ignored for some people.
"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.
(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Aug 18 2014, 2:38am)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 7:28am
Post #13 of 42
(548 views)
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... no effort involved.
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Spalko
Rivendell
Aug 18 2014, 7:47am
Post #14 of 42
(552 views)
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The first time I watched the movies, I did it without paying attention to the CGI, mistakes, bad reviews... because I was kind of disconnected from the fandom for years, and I have to say that I enjoyed the movies.
Yes, the are not masterpieces, but that is not a problem to enjoy something, at least for me. When the excitement of the first watching is over, you start paying attention to all those things that you can read people complaining about, and you would like to change some of those things too but, I think, that despite all those mistakes, bad CGI, etc, the movies brought us very, very good moments that compensate, at least for me, all the terrible things we can find in them.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 8:16am
Post #15 of 42
(537 views)
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I don't find any terrible things in them....
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And that's true and not forced, so I reject this rather grudging 'we can still enjoy them, despite....' attitude that seems so prevalent.
I see some things that I would have done differently, but that's inevitable and universal. Hang it, if I'd made the film myself I'd probably see lots of things that could have been done differently. I look at the good, which for me is a continuation of what I've loved in the LotR films all these years. Sheer visual beauty. Actors so good that I forget they're acting and engage with them as characters (better overall, I think, in The Hobbit than previously). The music - and of course, most of all, the story itself - and all of it underpinned by a depth of thought, imagination and artistry that I've never seen in ay other film.
When I watch I believe - you can't ask more than that.
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Spalko
Rivendell
Aug 18 2014, 8:39am
Post #16 of 42
(540 views)
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And that's true and not forced, so I reject this rather grudging 'we can still enjoy them, despite....' attitude that seems so prevalent.
When I say terrible, it is more about some technical aspects of the movies, those things that make you say 'ugh', and sorry if I used 'terrible', but English is not my main language and the lack of words I know to express my thoughts about a subject sometimes shows. And I do not get why do you think I may be 'bashing' these movies. I simply said that I enjoy them even not being perfect, in fact, when I watched them and I went to read reviews on the net, I was surprised to find a lot of bad reviews and people complaining about everything.
To say that something is not perfect, it's not being against something. I enjoy them, but I am aware that they are not perfect, and there are not a lot of perfect movies out there.
You enjoy them without seeing anything bad in them, perfect, I enjoy them too. I would have personally changed a few things, but that doesn't mean that I think that they are the worst thing ever. I love LoTR movies, and they are not perfect either. I had the best time watching the Hobbit and it made me go back to grab the books and the movies I didn't watch for a while, and I think it means a lot.
Pd: Summarizing, I am not against them, in fact they made love the LoTR universe again, and they gave me what I consider the best Galadriel, more mature than in the previous movies, and with a more powerful presence, and that is priceless.
(This post was edited by Spalko on Aug 18 2014, 8:49am)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 8:49am
Post #17 of 42
(506 views)
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Bombyzz College Degree is
in Radio, Television, Film
(Film emphasis 1972)
shot Television news, etc
So it is possible to think about Lighting,
Sound, Special Effects, Make-up, Hair...,etc..
until?
TOO wrapped up in THAT?,
lose sight?
of what makes these GREAT FILMS..
AlSOOoo, waiting to get the DOS EE in November..
.much of what we know IS?
missing,,,
it will BE there...
Sooo renting this version? the other day
after a few months or NOT having it handy..
...was a Complete JOY,
(Watched it 4 times in 24 hours..).
LOVED IT because?... I wanted toooo..
Here IS..a Technique you
might want to think about?
Over the years,
When painting HUGE Murals or Gigantic Theatre Scenery
( Bomby has done that too)
OF course,you must pay attention to details,
when working really close to IT?
but once it Shown in a SHOW?,
from 40 feet away it looks different
because of a
"Fresh Eyes" Technique
Walk away, think of something else,
go get something to eat
(Take your mind off of it...)
THEN..TURN around..look at the Whole THING
....with Fresh Eyes...
The Flaws are right there!,..to be corrected?
This "Fresh Eyes" Technique has kept
Bomby sane in an
INSANE World?
Undoubt ally PJ usezzz.. this technique
with every foot of Film
PJ does sign off?
.. on.
Trust Bomby
it works!
www.charlie-art.biz
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 8:54am
Post #18 of 42
(522 views)
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..but you missed the point.
You can say that there are some aspects of these films which you personally think are terrible, or which make you say 'ugh', or whatever form of words you care to choose. But what you can't say is that there are aspects of these films which are objectively terrible, upon which everyone would agree.
Do you see the difference? I'm not saying that you are bashing the films, or blaming you for disliking some aspects of them. Your reaction is your own and you express it just fine. I'm saying that you can't take your personal reaction and assume it's universal. It simply is not a fact that some particular aspects of the films, technical or otherwise are flawed. If it were, we would all agree on what those flaws are. We don't. Even people who dislike the films dislike different things about them. You enjoy the films, I enjoy them. We're both aware that they aren't perfect - in life, few things are - but I wouldn't mind betting that we would each pick on different 'imperfections' in them. It's all subjective.
That's all I'm saying - and your English is excellent, by the way!
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Spalko
Rivendell
Aug 18 2014, 9:03am
Post #19 of 42
(501 views)
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.. I'm saying that you can't take your personal reaction and assume it's universal.!
Oh, but I think that when we write our opinions about a movie, we are just expressing our own thoughts about it, and I never think that it is universal. That wasn't my intention when writing my post. I just wanted to express my opinion about the movies, that is all.
What we like, other may dislike it: in fact, I heard a lot of people complaining about how slow the White Council was and how they would remove it from the movie, when it is the part I loved most.
So I agree with you in that point. Each review is personal, and that is why I dislike when some people complain in a way that it seems that they have the truth, the only truth.
Sorry, if I didn't explain myself better. It takes some effort to translate the thoughts from one language to another, at least for me.
My opinions about the movie are just mine and I do not try to push others to think the same.
And thanks, I am trying my best. 
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 12:51pm
Post #20 of 42
(453 views)
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being high on Old Toby also helps
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Tobold Hornblower resents that remark.
** gets peanut butter sammich ** 
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 1:29pm
Post #21 of 42
(455 views)
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Especially if you're translating from your own language!
Sorry if I misunderstood you.
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Spalko
Rivendell
Aug 18 2014, 1:33pm
Post #22 of 42
(444 views)
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But this a perfect example of why I joined this forum: a wide variety of opinions, you learn a lot by reading other users, and people is polite, and that is not easy to find lately.
Edit: and sorry for the off-topic post.
(This post was edited by Spalko on Aug 18 2014, 1:34pm)
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 18 2014, 2:05pm
Post #23 of 42
(428 views)
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even if you pay attemption on the details, you will find some really cool things in this movies
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 4:02pm
Post #25 of 42
(449 views)
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HERE is A True Story from deep in Bombyzz 4000+ posts
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THAT relates to this Thread..
Back in 1999 when the First teaser, DOWNLOAD
took hours ...
this became Bombyzz Fun Topic
to talk about
on Union Break.
OUT of this pool of 400+ Stagehands
ONE emerged at "The ONE GUY" to talk Tolkien..?
Self-PROCLAIMED...?
Of course it wasn't littl' old Bomby...
After the First film came out?
HE walked up to me &
Freaked me out?
"I TOOK my Girlfriend & STORMED
OUT of the Theater when they cut
the "The OLDForest"
Chapter OUT?
for years he Refused Publically?
to see ANY of
"That A-hole's filmzz from New Zealand.."
Well, finally after ROTK won everything in 2004
PRIVATELY, whispered to me...
"...I FINALLY.
.Rented all three...
They were okay.."?
Well, the only Thingie
Bomby COULD think?
PJ wazzz supposed to make
HIS FILM?
Is PJ supposed to READ
Millions of MINDS..?
PJ izz making Movies HE wants to see &
Thinks Millions of Minds also
want to see.
Batta BING, Badda BONG
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
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DITTO with dormouse again...
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