|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 3:41am
Post #1 of 35
(1530 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"The dragon has not been seen in 60 years". -But he locked himself inside!
|
Can't Post
|
|
-Erebor!! so why would Thorin say this?? Smaug sealed the front gate so how would have smaug got out?? squeezing his way out the secret entrance?
The flames of war are upon you..
|
|
|
Glassary
Rivendell
Aug 17 2014, 3:45am
Post #2 of 35
(1045 views)
Shortcut
|
Guessing Smaug would just blast the door down to get out (and he did) the same way he entered Erebor.
Possible assumption by the dwarves of no sighting in 60 years could mean that either Smaug left somehow or died in Erebor.
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 3:47am
Post #3 of 35
(1039 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Balin states the front door is sealed at the same meeting Thorin says
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"smaug has not been seen in 60 years."
The flames of war are upon you..
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 3:48am
Post #4 of 35
(1028 views)
Shortcut
|
he sees himself as "king under the mountain".
The flames of war are upon you..
|
|
|
Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Aug 17 2014, 7:35am
Post #5 of 35
(983 views)
Shortcut
|
...assumes, or better; hopes, Smaug has died.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 8:37am
Post #6 of 35
(947 views)
Shortcut
|
|
so you're saying Thorin lied ??
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
he "assumed"….Ok but he told his company that smaug had not been seen for over 60 years, that's a statement not a assumption. -An assumption is saying; "perhaps the dragon is dead."
The flames of war are upon you..
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Aug 17 2014, 8:47am)
|
|
|
Remus
Lorien
Aug 17 2014, 8:49am
Post #7 of 35
(940 views)
Shortcut
|
Doesn't stop Smaug. 
If he wanted to get out he would do like he did at the end of DOS. Just run it through. You don't remember?
I wanna see a scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dur and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.
-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 8:57am
Post #8 of 35
(925 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I'm not sure what you are getting at.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The mention of the front gate being sealed was in reference to the dwarves getting in rather than Smaug getting out.
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 9:18am
Post #9 of 35
(927 views)
Shortcut
|
that is the only exit for smaug inside erebor! smaug couldn't exactly fit through the secret door that the company used to enter the mountain. If smaug smashed through the front gate than why would the dwarves need the map and key ?? The whole reason for rushing to the mountain was to get there on durin's day.
The flames of war are upon you..
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Aug 17 2014, 9:24am)
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 9:21am
Post #10 of 35
(902 views)
Shortcut
|
|
yes i am well aware of smaug being able to smash his way out of erebor
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
but he never did…Don't you think Thorin or Dain would have kept an eye on erebor ?? Don't you think they would have noticed if smaug had smashed his way out of erebor ?? Thorin would have had no need for Gandalf's key or map if the front gate was not sealed. My point is why would Thorin state that smaug had not been seen in 60 years?? If the front gate was sealed like Balin said than of course smaug was still inside erebor.
The flames of war are upon you..
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Aug 17 2014, 9:22am)
|
|
|
Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Aug 17 2014, 9:37am
Post #11 of 35
(895 views)
Shortcut
|
...I did NOT say that.
Thorin assumes (or hopes) Smaug has died, BECAUSE Smaug wasn't seen for 60 years. It is not that hard to understand...?
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
|
|
|
Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Aug 17 2014, 9:39am
Post #12 of 35
(884 views)
Shortcut
|
...but the big question was and is not whether or not the dragon is still inside. It is whether or not the dragon inside is ALIVE or DEAD.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 10:07am
Post #13 of 35
(884 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I'm trying to make sense of this
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But I'm not getting it. This is how I see the section of film you mention:
The bit of discussion where the quotes arise is really just saying that no one knows for sure whether the dragon is alive, dead, injured, trapped, spontaneously combusted, did somehow managed to find another way out etc and with all that treasure and whatever these "omens" are, are starting to wonder whether the danger is still definitely there after all those decades. It's clear that they still think it's likely the dragon is alive and a threat but it's just they, and everyone else, can't be 100% sure.
I'm still not sure if this is what you mean though?
|
|
|
Elarie
Grey Havens
Aug 17 2014, 12:01pm
Post #14 of 35
(854 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There's a lot of doubt about what is happening in the mountain
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
News of Erebor would have been mostly old news and rumor because people are afraid to go there, Laketown is no longer a major trading center and Dale is gone, so it's almost a wilderness area now. Smaug apparently hasn't gone raiding through the countryside for 60 years and rumors are slowly spreading and people are wondering if he's gone or dead, but no one is going to walk up and knock on the front door to find out, hence the need for secrecy and the hidden door.
As for the sealed front gate, If Smaug wanted to go somewhere it would be pretty easy for him to come out of Erebor and then smash some rocks down to close the opening behind him if he wanted, just to keep out any thieves who might be lurking around. In the book that's how he seals up the secret door from the outside, trapping the dwarves inside the mountain.
And once again the world has not arranged itself just for me.
|
|
|
BalrogTrainer
Rivendell
Aug 17 2014, 1:07pm
Post #15 of 35
(831 views)
Shortcut
|
... as in the LOTR trilogy, the timeline for some events has been greatly condensed in these films. Obviously the entire 171 years between the Sack of Erebor and the Quest of Erebor that takes place in canon (as well as the Battle of Azanulbizar occurring 29 years after the former) doesn't happen here (Thorin's lack of significant aging being the biggest giveaway), and it's presumably been changed to only 60 years instead (making the Battle of Azanulbizar then likely happening within 10 years of the Sack). That's the only think of which I can think, because, yes, if Smaug left the mountain, I'm sure it wouldn't go unnoticed.
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 2:33pm
Post #16 of 35
(812 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Although, that said, there is some similar uncertainty in the book
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Even as they approach the mountain they are still not 100% sure Smaug is alive :
"The dragon is still alive and in the halls under the Mountain then-or I imagine so from the smoke," said the hobbit.
"That does not prove it," said Balin, "though I don't doubt you are right."
And earlier in Bag End Thorin says he is unsure of Smaug's movements:
"The river runs right out of it through the great cliff at the South of the Mountain, and out of it comes the dragon too- far too often, unless he has changed."
He also doesn't seem to have any watchers in the area, as was suggested above, as even of Dale he says:
"Later he used to crawl out of the great gate and come by night to Dale, and carry away people, especially maidens, to eat, until Dale was ruined, and all the people dead or gone. What goes on there now I don't know for certain, but I don't suppose anyone lives nearer to the Mountain than the far edge of the Long Lake now-a-days."
Even the folks of Laketown were not certain:
"and some of the younger people in the town openly doubted the existence of any dragon in the mountain, and laughed at the greybeards and gammers who said that they had seen him flying in the sky in their young days."
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 17 2014, 2:44pm
Post #17 of 35
(816 views)
Shortcut
|
It would be easy enough for Smaug to push aside the debris of the Front Gate any time that he wished to exit the Moutain and to replace it when he returned, resealing the entrance. And a decades-long sleep for a dragon after a heavy meal does not seem to be unusual.
Peter Jackson seems to have moved the Battle of Azanulbizar up to the time of Thrain's disappearance (about TA 2840 in the film timeline). It is reasonable to guess that the timing of Smaug's sack of Erebor is also changed to about the year 2810 or so--consistent with Thorin looking to be a fully-grown adult at the time. We know from the tapestery in Lake-town that Thorin's year of birth remains unchanged.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
|
|
|
sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 5:35pm
Post #18 of 35
(769 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I would imagine that if he sealed it,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
he would be more than capable of unsealing it.
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 7:04pm
Post #19 of 35
(739 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Than why didn't Thorin say that instead of saying
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
the dragon has not been seen in 60 years? There is only ONE way out of erebor for smaug, the front gate. Balin states the "front gate is sealed, there is no way inside the mountain".
The flames of war are upon you..
|
|
|
Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Aug 17 2014, 7:05pm
Post #20 of 35
(737 views)
Shortcut
|
It does not make any difference.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 7:06pm
Post #21 of 35
(726 views)
Shortcut
|
|
the only news that the dwarves would care about is whether or not
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
the front gate is sealed or not. Like i've said numerous times on this thread Balin states; "The front gate is sealed, there is no way inside the mountain". So nothing can go on inside the mountain other than smaug sleeping or eating rats if the front gate is sealed.
The flames of war are upon you..
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 7:08pm
Post #22 of 35
(732 views)
Shortcut
|
|
i'm just saying that line from thorin doesn't make sense
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The flames of war are upon you..
|
|
|
Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Aug 17 2014, 7:10pm
Post #23 of 35
(717 views)
Shortcut
|
...yes, and I am saying it does.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
|
|
|
Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Aug 17 2014, 7:18pm
Post #24 of 35
(718 views)
Shortcut
|
If I hadn't seen the dragon that stole my home out from under my nose in 60 years then I too would start to question what in Middle Earth was going on inside. It's not so far-fetched to assume that the dragon has perished or gone permanently dormant (as Balin clearly assumed of the Balrog when he tried to reestablish the kingdom of Khazad Dum).
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 17 2014, 7:25pm
Post #25 of 35
(705 views)
Shortcut
|
It isn't even an assumption. Their assumption is the dragon is alive and still in there. It is simply a notion that they cannot be entirely sure (just, incidentally, as in the book).
|
|
|
|
|
1
