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Dwarewien
Rohan
Aug 16 2014, 10:28pm
Post #1 of 15
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Chapter of the Week: Barrels Out Of Bond
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Since this is a long chapter, I'll be splitting it in half again, and you'll have to excuse me if I go a little too far, since I rarely rewatch scenes (it's the whole movie or TV series or nothing). And don't worry, Kim, I have at least one screencap of Thorin all wet! 
That said, lets get this show on the road, shall we?
The chapter begins with the Elves of Mirkwood chatting about collecting (or getting) out the empty barrels to Laketown, with a cameo appearance by what appears to be Elrond's brother, Elros.
1. What did you think of Elros inclusion in this scene?
Next we see that Bilbo is still wearing the Ring as he surveys the action and spots one of the Elves hanging the keys on a nearby nail, close enough for him to grab.
2. Do you think Bilbo wanted to grab the keys, or was it just a spur of the moment?
In the next scene, we see Ori and some of the other dwarves in cells commenting on "never going to reach the mountain" when Bilbo shows up with the keys.
3. Other than Thorin and possibly Balin, do you think the dwarves were expecting Bilbo to come to their rescue?
Next we see some of the reactions of the dwarves, starting with Thorin:
4. Do you think Thorin is glad to see that Bilbo came to their rescue, or did you assume something else by his actions?
Bilbo then unlocks the dwarves cells, starting with Thorin with a warning to keep their voices down since they're are guards nearby.
5. What do you think the Elven guards are doing at this moment (other than getting drunk on wine or some other alcoholic beverage). Do you think any of them suspected than anyone would attempt a rescue?
The only dwarf to utter Bilbo's name is Balin.
6. Is Balin the only one of the dwarves (other than Thorin) that thought that Bilbo would come through and rescue them?
In the next scene, we see Bilbo leading the dwarves quietly by the unconscious Elven guards to stand next to a bunch of barrels near the middle of the floor. Bofur comments that they're "in the cellar" and says something to Bilbo (which I can't remember on the moment), only to shush him later when he objects.
7. What do you think the dwarves (and Bilbo) think the barrels are used for? Did you think it was Bilbo's intention to hide them in the barrels or was it just a spur of the moment, noticing them there?
Since we're at the halfway point (more or less), I'll have the remaining questions for you tomorrow, and like I stated earlier, you'll have to excuse me if I go too far (since I rarely rewatch scenes. I'd have to finish with AUJ first, since that's the one I'm on at the moment).
Far over the Misty Mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away, ere break of day
To find our long-forgotten gold.
(This post was edited by Altaira on Aug 17 2014, 12:24am)
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Aug 17 2014, 3:51am
Post #2 of 15
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1. I didn't know Elros was in this scene! Thanks for pointing it out!
2. I think it was probably planned. I can't see how else Bilbo could have
thought about breaking them out.
3. I am not sure. Most of them seemed to have no idea what happened to him.
4.I think he is happy but trying not to show it.
5. Probably just getting drunk. I doubt they thought anyone could break put of jail.
6. I think so.
7. I think this was spur of the moment. I think he was unsure how exactly to get them out and then saw the barrels.
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delius82
Rivendell
Aug 17 2014, 4:16am
Post #3 of 15
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1. What did you think of Elros inclusion in this scene? I had no idea it was him. 2. Do you think Bilbo wanted to grab the keys, or was it just a spur of the moment? I'm definitely sure he wanted to grab the keys.
3. Other than Thorin and possibly Balin, do you think the dwarves were expecting Bilbo to come to their rescue? Nope.
4. Do you think Thorin is glad to see that Bilbo came to their rescue, or did you assume something else by his actions? He is glad to see Bilbo, seeing as he was possibly anticipating his arrival. 5. What do you think the Elven guards are doing at this moment (other than getting drunk on wine or some other alcoholic beverage). Do you think any of them suspected than anyone would attempt a rescue? The Keeper of the Keys and his companion are getting drunk but the rest of the guard are probably doing their normal duties. I don't think they were expecting any kind of rescue.
6. Is Balin the only one of the dwarves (other than Thorin) that thought that Bilbo would come through and rescue them? Probably.
7. What do you think the dwarves (and Bilbo) think the barrels are used for? Did you think it was Bilbo's intention to hide them in the barrels or was it just a spur of the moment, noticing them there? I think they don't have any idea as to what the barrels are used for. It was his intention for them to hide in the barrels.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Aug 17 2014, 11:43am
Post #4 of 15
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1. What did you think of Elros’ inclusion in this scene?
Well, it’s obviously not THE Elros, but it’s a nice homage nonetheless. Though maybe they could have gone with a less known name from Tolkien’s lore.
2. Do you think Bilbo wanted to grab the keys, or was it just a spur of the moment?
He saw his chance and he took it. I doubt he had much time to come up with an elaborate plan, rather he thought of one as the opportunity presented itself.
3. Other than Thorin and possibly Balin, do you think the dwarves were expecting Bilbo to come to their rescue?
Well, we know at least Ori was starting to lose hope (“We’re never going to reach the mountain, are we?”) and I wager he wasn’t the only one. By then they all knew Bilbo was not among them, yet they had no idea whether he had made it inside Thranduil’s Halls, and even if he had, whether he could get them out in time. So it’s no surprise some of them weren’t all too hopeful, though I think not because they doubted whether Bilbo would try to come to their rescue or not; the question was: will he be able to do it? and if he is, will he arrive before it’s too late?
4. Do you think Thorin is glad to see that Bilbo came to their rescue, or did you assume something else by his actions?
Of course he’s glad! The dwarves were in a dire situation before Bilbo showed up and all of a sudden they stand a chance again! Thorin placed his trust and hopes in Bilbo (“Not our only hope,” he replies to Balin when the latter says their only hope would have been had Thorin made a deal with the Elvenking) and he’s not disappointed.
5. What do you think the Elven guards are doing at this moment (other than getting drunk on wine or some other alcoholic beverage). Do you think any of them suspected than anyone would attempt a rescue?
I’ll allow the book to answer this question for me: But all went well, and they met no guards. As a matter of fact there was a great autumn feast in the woods that night, and in the halls above. Nearly all the king's folks were merrymaking. (The Hobbit, Barrels Out of Bond) And no, I doubt any of elves suspected that anyone would to come to the dwarves’ rescue – had they, then I’m sure someone would have stayed around to keep a closer eye on them.
6. Is Balin the only one of the dwarves (other than Thorin) that thought that Bilbo would come through and rescue them?
Balin sure seems to have faith not only in Bilbo’s will to help them, but also in him actually being able to pull it off. It’s hard to say anything certain about the rest, though one can imagine some might have been more surprised to see Bilbo show up with the keys than others.
7. What do you think the dwarves (and Bilbo) think the barrels are used for? Did you think it was Bilbo's intention to hide them in the barrels or was it just a spur of the moment, noticing them there?
Well, they *are* in the cellars, so I trust they put two and two together and realized the barrels where used to transport food and wine, thought I doubt any one of them really took time to ponder on it. They had more pressing matters to deal with. As of Bilbo’s intentions, I think he came up with the plan to hide the dwarves in the barrels when he heard the elves talk about the need to send the empty barrels back to Lake-town and saw his chance to get hold of the keys. Hadn’t he thought of this before, I doubt he would have lead the dwarves into the cellars; rather he’d taken the stairs like the dwarves initially wanted to.
Thank you, Queen of Erebor, for leading us through this amusing chapter!
“As he caught his footing, his head fell back, and the Milky Way flowed down inside him with a roar.” - Yasunari Kawabata, Snow Country
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Kim
Valinor
Aug 17 2014, 5:52pm
Post #5 of 15
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Kim, I have at least one screencap of Thorin all wet!
Thank you for the reassurance, I know you couldn’t possibly miss an opportunity to post a wet Thorin pic!
1. What did you think of Elros inclusion in this scene?
I actually didn’t know Elrond had a brother named Elros, so I didn’t notice it.
2. Do you think Bilbo wanted to grab the keys, or was it just a spur of the moment?
Well, I think he was sneaking around looking for an opportunity to free the dwarves, and this presented itself. So he seized the opportunity when he had the chance.
3. Other than Thorin and possibly Balin, do you think the dwarves were expecting Bilbo to come to their rescue?
It doesn’t seem like it – in fact, it kind of seems like they’ve forgotten about him.
4. Do you think Thorin is glad to see that Bilbo came to their rescue, or did you assume something else by his actions?
Of course he’s glad! And probably very relieved that it was so soon. Just curious – did you assume something else by his actions, and if so, what?
5. What do you think the Elven guards are doing at this moment (other than getting drunk on wine or some other alcoholic beverage). Do you think any of them suspected than anyone would attempt a rescue?
Well, it appears that most of the kingdom was at the feast, or down in the cellars, but it does seem like there should have been a couple of guards posted around the cells. Maybe they don’t have prisoners much, and figure there’s no way they could get out of the cells, so why not enjoy a little fun time? And since they thought they’d captured the entire Company, they certainly wouldn’t be expecting a rescue attempt.
6. Is Balin the only one of the dwarves (other than Thorin) that thought that Bilbo would come through and rescue them?
I don’t know that Balin thought of Bilbo either – he seems really surprised, and absolutely overjoyed, when he does see Bilbo. I do think it’s kind of funny that he yells out “Bilbo!” in a really loud voice – you’d think he’d remember to be quiet so as not to alert the guards. 
7. What do you think the dwarves (and Bilbo) think the barrels are used for? Did you think it was Bilbo's intention to hide them in the barrels or was it just a spur of the moment, noticing them there?
I think that he heard the elves talking about sending the barrels back to Esgaroth and saw the mechanics of how the barrels would be returned. So, I think he had the plan in mind when he went to get the dwarves. And he probably figured they were wine barrels based on the elves comments and all the wine bottles around.
One of my favorite little bits in this section that I only noticed when watching with the subtitles on was when Dwalin went to get into a barrel, and Gloin was right in front of him, and Dwalin says, “move your big ginger head.” And I thought the mechanics themselves were really clever, and a fun visual.
Thorin’s hair: looks absolutely fluffy and fabulous when he says, “do as he says” after Bilbo looks at him when trying to persuade the dwarves to get into the barrels.
Thanks QoE! Looking forward to the next part - probably the most fun section in the movie!
“Will you follow me, one last time?”
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Retro315
Rivendell
Aug 18 2014, 1:19am
Post #7 of 15
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1. Elros. Honestly, I had no idea. I mean I knew from beforehand that somewhere in the film a random elf had been given the moniker "Elros" just for the credits, because he gets a brief speaking role or two. And while it's not really an appropriate name to use because of the import of the actual Elros ... or even because, frankly, you probably wouldn't find that Noldorin name on a Sylvan Elf, there's enough namesakes in Middle-earth lore that it doesn't bother me if that's a no-name's "name". I mean, men of the Line of Stewards were naming kids after Ecthelion. There were a few Denethors and Boromirs. Thorin's line is LOADED with Durins, and I don't even think he's the first Thorin, right? He's Thorin II Oakenshield. Boy, I had plenty to say about that minor, minor character.
It was nice to let some of the rank and file Mirkwood elves interact with Leggy.
2. If, hopefully, the entirety of Bilbo's time sneaking around is Extended in a big way, hopefully we'll have a much clearer vision that he spent a deal of time working out a plan. But I thought it was pretty clear just from the camera angle, the tell-tale chingle of the keys on the guard's belt, and Bilbo's body language, exactly what was going to happen - and if it wasn't, the reward, the "pop" for that story beat, happens only like thirty seconds later and makes itself clear. A really nice bit of filmmaking, I thought, and a great Freeman moment. I thought "more of this, less of everything else, please!"
3. I'm not sure even Thorin was. Obviously their relationship is changed from the books and the scenario is vastly changed because Thorin isn't down in the bottom dungeon in a lone cell, separated and not knowing his dwarves are locked up, too, for Bilbo to discover. I liked the bit of optimism and how it connects back to Bofur's quick "Where's Bilbo?" during the capture. More good film timing.
4. He's glad alright. Confounded by the skills of the burglar. More could have been done to hype that build-up, so the whole "wow, this burglar might actually be able to slip past Smaug!" angle could be built upon.
5. The Ring is beyond even Elven senses, and it was baffling for me that they decided, mega-aware Elf-King or not, to give Thranduil that little wisp of thinking he saw something. No, nobody knew Bilbo was there, and we can buy that, because we buy the notion of an Invisibility Ring. The guards expected nothing more than to enjoy their night, and maybe to bring some of the party leftovers to the prisoners, because after all, they're not evil.
6. I don't think Balin suspected it would happen, but as the one with the most regard for Bilbo and faith in him, he's also the least surprised that the Hobbit pulls through for them. This is good characterization. Ken Stott is great.
7. We don't have Smell-O-Vision, but the dwarves surely can smell the overpowering aroma of apples and other sundries. The barrels probably aren't wine casks - those would be smaller. But the overpowering smell of wine would be in the cellar as well. No, they're not idiots - they just don't realize the Elves' ingenious way of disposing of the empty barrels to make room for new, full ones, so they can't grasp Bilbo's WILD plan. Thorin obviously figures it out first, being the one with probably the most knowledge of the Wood-Elf realm, and being old and clever.
For the most part, I quite enjoyed the Elven Dungeons sequences, especially the faithful book stuff of Bilbo creeping in the cellar, the guards getting drunk and snoring, the keys, and stealthily bringing the dwarves "down" and not "up", to their surprise. Very faithful - it reminds us that something can be very book accurate and still have a really brisk pace.
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Faleel
Rohan
Aug 18 2014, 1:29am
Post #8 of 15
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Thranduil has ears you know.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 5:48am
Post #9 of 15
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1. What did you think of Elros inclusion in this scene?
It's obviously not THE Elros lol, but given the "Introduction to Sindarin" book I have, written by David Salo (who, incidentally, is the one person in the world who is as fluent as humanly possible in Elvish, aside from possibly J.R.R. himself, and was the language consultant for the production IIRC), has an entire lexicon of elvish names in the back of it! Surely with not only a name lexicon that has hundreds of elvish names, but also listing which elvish language the names were derived from (Quenya, Sindarin, and states at what era of said language development over the course of ME history it pertains to even), AND the producers could have also looked up, for example "red hair" or "jewel" or "daughter of the forest" as a character trait- oh wait- that's how they came up with Tauriel (and ironically I know this for a fact because I came up with and debated on this name for an OC for a fan fic before this particular one was abandoned LONG before news of her casting and name came out!)....
Point is, they could have come up with hundreds of names besides Elros for this keeper of the keys. They certainly didn't have to use one that could be linked to an elf that was alive at this particular moment (Elrond's brother). Heck, I would have been happy if they'd used Beleg...oh wait- would that be a rights issue???
Sigh....they could have picked a different name at least. I found it distracting and annoying, to be honest (though I love the rest of the scene for the most part). It pulled me out of the movie for a moment.
2. Do you think Bilbo wanted to grab the keys, or was it just a spur of the moment?
He clearly hears that the barrels were going to be sent back to Esgaroth. He sees the keys set down. You (the audience) can clearly see Bilbo's eyes following them intently. And they were loading up the barrels as well. Next you see him releasing the dwarves and the elves are already drunk. Unless the wine is so potent that you're drunk by the time you end the bottle after guzzling it down in ten seconds (heck, I don't drink but as far as I've heard even everclear- something that's nearly pure alcohol- or at least so pure that my baking instructor had to smuggle it into Washington state to use the steam vapors to seal the powdered color on our fondant roses because it's illegal and everclear was the only alcohol with enough alcohol content in it to do the job), I suspect that the elves had their little "party" go on for at least twenty minutes or so.
So I have a feeling, especially since there are far less elves down there when they come down than before, that Bilbo saw the first load of barrels go out, then the elves stacked more and left the two to return to the party upstairs for a few minutes (or possibly carry some wares upstairs). The elves that came out would have had to pass the dungeons on their way up, so it's not as if they were still down there.
I think that Bilbo was likely following the keeper of the keys every night after he discovered the dungeons and waited patiently for him/her to slip up. But when he saw the first set of barrels go down (this also explains how Bombur gets a new barrel after his is destroyed, and also how Bilbo ends up on one- they must have also been caught up along the river bank and loosened when the dwarves' barrels hit them after, even though all 13 dwarves took up all the barrels in the cellar during the escape), after following the keeper to the cellar, he finally was able to seize the opportunity to swipe the keys, and made sure all was quiet before venturing up to release the dwarves.
3. Other than Thorin and possibly Balin, do you think the dwarves were expecting Bilbo to come to their rescue?
Thorin was initially hopeful, I think- "Not our only hope" but even he began to despair after a bit I'm sure. Clearly the other dwarves aren't expecting aid- "We're never gonna get out of here, are we?", so unless we're shown Bilbo conversing with them in secret while they're still locked up in the EE, I have a feeling Thorin is holding onto that hope because it's the only hope they have left, dim though it is. But I have a feeling that the dwarves, or at least most of them, didn't think Bilbo survived the spider encounter. He wasn't with them when they were captured, they don't know about the ring yet supposedly, so for all they know either he was killed by the spiders or got left behind in the forest to die when they got captured. This also fits in with Bofur's asking where he was, and Thorin's worried look when the question was presented in the forest. I don't think Thorin's ready to give up yet, but the rest of them likely are.
As for Balin, I think he was extremely surprised initially (and his comment "A deal was our only hope" implies that either he doesn't have confidence in Bilbo to find a way out or it supports my earlier thought that up until he shows up with the keys they don't even think he's alive TO help). But he recovered quickly- something I would expect from someone whose clearly acted in the capacity for diplomatic advisor for quite some time now. A skilled diplomat can change their demeanor in half a second or faster, and once he got over his surprise (Bilbo!) he began to chuckle. But I don't think Bilbo was an option in his realistic mind as a means of escape. Hopefully the EE will clear it up a little more as to whether they thought Bilbo dead the whole time or if he'd had conversations with them before this
4. Do you think Thorin is glad to see that Bilbo came to their rescue, or did you assume something else by his actions?
I think Thorin was a combination of glad, relieved, astonished, shocked- he jumped toward those bars like he couldn't believe his eyes. It's the reaction I would expect from someone who didn't know the person in front of them was even alive. If Bilbo had spoken to them in the cells before this, why would they be so shocked to see him? And combined with all the exclamations of him even being there, I'd say that Thorin is not only glad that he came to their rescue, but that Bilbo was still alive (as they're friends now).
I, like another person above me, am curious as to how else Thorin's reaction could be interpreted....
5. What do you think the Elven guards are doing at this moment (other than getting drunk on wine or some other alcoholic beverage). Do you think any of them suspected than anyone would attempt a rescue?
I have a feeling that, by this point, they doubted the dwarves would manage an escape (they'd probably been there for a while now- ruling out any possibility that they've figured out how to remove or open the metal doors simply because they're dwarves), and this, combined with the party upstairs, probably led the guard to be a bit more lax in their rounds. Bilbo does say there are guards nearby, so I would think that some guards might be guarding the entrance to the dungeons themselves, however, unlike when Tauriel made her rounds earlier that night, they don't seem to be making rounds now. Perhaps at this point a round is done only every hour, possibly less, as there have not been any successful attempts at escape.
It also tells me that, despite being nearly caught at least twice (hopefully the EE will show us more narrow misses on Bilbo's part- I would love to see him snitching food and nearly getting stepped on as in the book! ), the elves don't know that the dwarves have an ally on the outside. And if you're going to have a group remain prisoner for at least 100 years, and they haven't escaped or even gotten beyond their cells in (I would think) about a month or so, if not two, I wouldn't have a sentry posted by every door either. Of course, had Bilbo's plan failed, I would expect a guard at every single cell around the clock for a while!
6. Is Balin the only one of the dwarves (other than Thorin) that thought that Bilbo would come through and rescue them?
I don't think he did, but I do think that he was the least surprised that Bilbo managed it (once he saw he was alive and breathing, of course ). So if the hobbit is alive, Balin would think so, but if he didn't think he was, then that explains the despair earlier and the impressed countenance now.
7. What do you think the dwarves (and Bilbo) think the barrels are used for? Did you think it was Bilbo's intention to hide them in the barrels or was it just a spur of the moment, noticing them there?
Well, Kili immediately knew it was the cellars (btw, Kili is the one who makes the "I don't believe it- we're in the cellars!" comment, not Bofur. Bofur criticizes Bilbo after Kili says that- "you're supposed to be leading us OUT, not further in!"). It wouldn't take much to think that barrels were obviously the main source of transporting goods in ME. That's actually pretty historically accurate amongst societies like those seen in ME. And the dwarves clearly know caves and dwelling systems, living underground themselves, and as such would know what a cellar would look like immediately. Cellars are also just that- the bottom of the residence. So it didn't strike me as at all odd that the dwarves knew the barrels were for transporting goods. I would actually think them incredibly stupid if they didn't.
Or if you're talking about why they had to get into the barrels, that makes more sense to me lol....
I don't think the dwarves had any idea how Bilbo intended to use the barrels. He of course knew- otherwise why would he say "hold your breath" and release the lever? The elves were stacking up the barrels as Bilbo was in the cellar before- he knew exactly that they were used for goods just by the elves conversation (and what I mentioned above). And I'm sure he heard the splashing below, and possibly caught the word "bargeman" too- how else would a barge be used except on water?
I think Bilbo's plan was hatched out before he ever released the dwarves. Otherwise, as Bofur aptly mentioned- why would he lead them in instead of further out? The top path was guarded, the gate was closed. As in the book, this is the only other way out. It would make absolutely no sense to just get them out and have them hide- the elves would not only find them, but possibly punish them for trying to escape and set armed 24 hour guards by each cell. And Bilbo would likely get taken too, or at least they would know there was another person amongst them and be searching the entire kingdom/palace high and low for the invisible hobbit.
Also a reply to another poster above (I don't remember which one- I'm speaking to the person who mentioned the elves and Bilbo's presence above):
The elves have keen ears, and it was that and also a wobbly thin shadow that made Bilbo get nearly caught many times in the book. I can only conclude that Legolas (at the gate), then Thranduil (in his bedchambers) heard Bilbo walking/running, and/or his breathing. Legolas paused, looked as if he was listening, then turned back. Not seeing anything, he just turned and went about his business of going through the front gate. Thranduil thought he heard something (he did), but then Tauriel appeared and saved Bilbo from discovery by masking his presence and Thranduil thought it was her lingering. And later on in the same conversation, Bilbo creeps across the room and Thranduil's head whips around, before eyes moved back and forth as his brow furrowed in confusion.
Both instances speak of someone hearing something unusual, but they can't see anything so get confused. It's actually spot on to the book about Bilbo barely able to avoid elves' keen ears (and eyes with the wobbly shadow- though in movie canon that doesn't seem to be there) the entire time he was in Thranduil's realm
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Noria
Gondor
Aug 19 2014, 2:16pm
Post #10 of 15
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1. What did you think of Elros inclusion in this scene?
-This can’t be THE Elros, Elrond’s brother. Not only is he dead but he was the first king of Numenor, not a prison guard. This is just a re-use of the name by the film makers, maybe as BlackFox said, a homage. IIRC, his name is mentioned in the LotR book Appendices, so they can use it.
2. Do you think Bilbo wanted to grab the keys, or was it just a spur of the moment?
-I think that Bilbo saw an opportunity and took it. Probably he had been exploring the palace looking for ideas. We don't know what else he saw in the palace and what other plans he might have made, if any. In a lot of ways this part of the scene is pretty close to the book, though it’s more condensed.
3. Other than Thorin and possibly Balin, do you think the dwarves were expecting Bilbo to come to their rescue?
-No. I still don’t really understand why Thorin did, given that as far as we know he knows nothing of the Ring. Apparently Thorin has great faith, possibly too great, in Bilbo.
4. Do you think Thorin is glad to see that Bilbo came to their rescue, or did you assume something else by his actions?
-Yes I think that Thorin was glad to see Bilbo, especially with the keys, just less surprised than the other Dwarves.
5. What do you think the Elven guards are doing at this moment (other than getting drunk on wine or some other alcoholic beverage). Do you think any of them suspected than anyone would attempt a rescue?
-No, I think that if they suspected that a rescue was at hand, they would be in the dungeons. Presumably Eros was supposed to be nearby because when Galion invite him to try the wine, at first he demurred because he had the Dwarves in his charge. Poor guy! But knowing that the prisoners are secure in their cells without hope of escape from either the cells themselves or the palace, possibly the guards didn't feel there was any need for their constant presence. They probably conduct routine patrols like the one that discovered the escape. Maybe there was a skeleton crew and most were off partying.
6. Is Balin the only one of the dwarves (other than Thorin) that thought that Bilbo would come through and rescue them?
-Balin didn't seem entirely unsurprised to me but clearly the others were not expecting rescue.
7. What do you think the dwarves (and Bilbo) think the barrels are used for? Did you think it was Bilbo's intention to hide them in the barrels or was it just a spur of the moment, noticing them there?
-I imagine that Bilbo and the Dwarves know that barrels are used for storage and shipping. Bilbo had seen the barrels and the keys on their hook in his reconnoitering and heard that the barrels were there waiting to be released into the river. He had his plan ready when he stole the keys and released the Dwarves, otherwise he would not have led them down into the cellars.
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Dwarewien
Rohan
Aug 19 2014, 10:46pm
Post #11 of 15
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Sorry for the delay folks, but I kind of got busy with Into the Storm (I just received the book I ordered on violent tornadoes, killer hurricanes and other extreme weather. The soundtrack for the film is still on pre-order).
Let's continue on, shall we?
Bilbo then tries to convince the dwarves to climb into the barrels. I think this is when Dwalin objects and tells Bilbo that the Elves will discover them. Bilbo tries to reassure Dwalin, but when he fails, he turns to Thorin for help. Thorin tells Dwalin and the dwarves to "do what he says."
8. What do you think is going through Thorin's mind (as well as Bilbo's) when the dwarves refuse to take Bilbo's advice?
After the dwarves climb into the barrels and Bilbo makes sure everyone is inside, Bofur asks what they are to do now. Bilbo tells him to hold his breath just prior to pulling the lever that releases the barrels into the river below, neglecting to include himself in the plan.
9. Do you think Bilbo forgot to include himself on purpose, or was he simply too busy on figuring out how to get the dwarves to safety before worrying about himself?
Once Bilbo realizes his mistake and finds a way to join the dwarves in the river, Thorin tells him that he did a good job and then leads the dwarves down the river. Meanwhile, the Elves now know that their prisoners have escaped and attempts to cut off their escape route by closing the gates.
10. How long do you think it took Bilbo to figure out how to escape the cellar since he was the only one not in a barrel?
Once Bilbo figures out how to escape the cellar and joins the dwarves in the river, he holds on to one of the dwarves barrels while Thorin tells him "Well done, Master Baggins." He then attempts to lead the dwarves (and Bilbo) down the river.
11. Do you think Bilbo was expecting Thorin thanking him for his escape plan, or did he have something else on his mind?
The Elves now attempt to cut off the dwarves escape route. As one of them blows a horn in warning, another one pulls the lever that closes the gates, barring the dwarves (and Bilbo) from getting any further.
(told you I had at least one screencap of Thorin all wet)
12. Do you think Thorin and the dwarves were expecting the Elves to ban their way like this?
Shortly after some of the barrels run into the closed gates, Bolg and the Orcs attack the company. Bofur calls out warning them: "Look out, there's Orcs!" he cries or something to the effect where Bilbo slews one that tries to get to Thorin. It's at this time that Kili sees the lever and attempts to get to it to free them from the Woodland Realm but Bolg sees him and injures him with a poisoned arrow, getting Tauriel's attention.
13. What do you think was going through Tauriel's mind when Kili is injured?
Once Kili manages to rejoin the dwarves, an ongoing fight between the dwarves and the Orcs pursues. When one of them attempts to kill Balin, Thorin intervenes by pinning him to a tree, causing him to drop his weapon that Thorin catches in an attempt to fight off the Orcs.
14. Do you think the Orc was expecting to end his life in that way?
The battle continues with the Elves joining in, with Legolas jumping in, standing on some of the heads of the dwarves while he attempts to get to the Orcs. Once he leaves Dwalin's head, he doesn't seem that impressed.
15. Do you think this is yet another reason for dwarves to hate Elves, or are you reading something else here?
Thorin makes one more save as one of the Orcs comes behind Legolas in an attempt to end his life.
16. What do you think Legolas is thinking at this moment?
I think that's it for this chapter. If I went a little too far (since I rarely rewatch scenes), feel free to answer the appropriate questions at a later time. This is probably the longest chapter I've hosted (so far).
Far over the Misty Mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away, ere break of day
To find our long-forgotten gold.
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Kim
Valinor
Aug 20 2014, 3:05am
Post #12 of 15
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8. What do you think is going through Thorin's mind (as well as Bilbo's) when the dwarves refuse to take Bilbo's advice?
Well, Thorin responds in Bilbo’s favor, so he’s putting his trust in him, but then the look he gives Bilbo pretty much says, “you’d better be right about this.” And Bilbo is pretty certain of his plan, but isn’t quite up to convincing the dwarves, but he knows to appeal to the leader to move things along quickly.
9. Do you think Bilbo forgot to include himself on purpose, or was he simply too busy on figuring out how to get the dwarves to safety before worrying about himself?
I think he forgot all about himself as that seems pretty clear by his reaction once the dwarves were all gone. And yes, it seemed he was so focused on getting the dwarves out, he forgot about himself.
10. How long do you think it took Bilbo to figure out how to escape the cellar since he was the only one not in a barrel?
Well, he seems to be a pretty clever Hobbit and quickly figured out the lever/balance system of the trap door. I always wince when he slides down the wood as I can just picture the splinters. But then, Hobbits have pretty tough feet, so I’m sure he was fine.
11. Do you think Bilbo was expecting Thorin thanking him for his escape plan, or did he have something else on his mind?
Well, I suppose it’s only natural to expect a thank you. What’s noticeable for me is that this was really the first time that Thorin thanked Bilbo and really seems to appreciate him and how helpful he can be to the Company. And, he was deliberately holding back the barrels while they waited for Bilbo, they didn’t just head out without him.
(told you I had at least one screencap of Thorin all wet)
Thank you very much.
12. Do you think Thorin and the dwarves were expecting the Elves to ban their way like this?
I don’t think so. I imagine they thought they were sneaking out in a manner the elves wouldn’t notice, and really didn’t expect any attention so soon. And I don’t know that they would know that the waterway could be closed off.
13. What do you think was going through Tauriel's mind when Kili is injured?
Well, she seemed to take stock of the initial situation pretty quickly and jump into the fighting. She didn’t really seem to react to Kili’s being injured, more just seeing orcs and springing into battle mode. She did get distracted later when he jumped back into his barrel, but quickly recovered.
14. Do you think the Orc was expecting to end his life in that way?
Most definitely not – I’m sure he figured he’d slay dozens of elves and dwarves instead.
Adding some commentary about the next part of the scene: lots of fun barrel action and Bombur the Bouncing Barrel! One of the funniest parts of this chapter, and such a fun showcase for him. It always got cheers in the theater. 
15. Do you think this is yet another reason for dwarves to hate Elves, or are you reading something else here?
Well, it certainly shows an amount of disrespect, doesn’t it?
16. What do you think Legolas is thinking at this moment?
Still can’t tell if Legolas knew that Thorin saved him, or if he’s just frustrated that the dwarves got away.
The scene actually goes on a little longer where we see Legolas and Tauriel capture the orc, and the other orcs pursue the dwarves downriver. I thought it was a nice touch that they didn’t just mindless slay all the orcs, but captured one to find out what was going on. And it’s at this point as Tauriel looks downriver that it seems she’s thinking of Kili, and possibly hoping he’s ok.
Thorin’s hair: it’s wet, what more do we need to say? Let’s see, how about: his soaked silky tresses have an appealing sheen and luster unmatched by any other.
I posted this one on my other thread, but seems appropriate here:
Yep, that should do it.
Thanks again QoE! Ooh, and let us know how you like the ITS soundtrack.
“Will you follow me, one last time?”
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Aug 20 2014, 11:11am
Post #13 of 15
(2536 views)
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8. What do you think is going through Thorin’s mind (as well as Bilbo’s) when the dwarves refuse to take Bilbo’s advice?
Thorin is the first to realize that Bilbo’s plan is the best (as in only) chance they have to escape. Plus, they’re in a hurry, there’s no time for doubts – they must put their faith in Bilbo once again. The delay obviously frustrates Bilbo as his efforts are at risk of going to waste. But noticing that Thorin seems to be on his side (or at least not as strongly against his plan as some of the other dwarves), the hobbit turns to him for help.
9. Do you think Bilbo forgot to include himself on purpose, or was he simply too busy on figuring out how to get the dwarves to safety before worrying about himself?
The latter. It’s a nice nod to the book: It was just at this moment that Bilbo suddenly discovered the weak point in his plan. Most likely you saw it some time ago and have been laughing at him; but I don't suppose you would have done half as well yourselves in his place. Of course he was not in a barrel himself, nor was there anyone to pack him in, even if there had been a chance! (The Hobbit, Barrels Out of Bond) Such a hobbity thing to do! This must be one of my favourite scenes. MF is absolutely brilliant here.
10. How long do you think it took Bilbo to figure out how to escape the cellar since he was the only one not in a barrel?
He doesn’t figure it out; he manages to escape by luck, or, more precisely, by accident. He hears the guards approach, backs away instinctively, the floor tips and he falls into the river.
11. Do you think Bilbo was expecting Thorin thanking him for his escape plan, or did he have something else on his mind?
I’m sure he was glad to hear Thorin thank him – rightfully so –, but I believe his main concern at that moment was simply not to drown. ;)
12. Do you think Thorin and the dwarves were expecting the Elves to ban their way like this?
I think “were fearing” would be more appropriate phrasing. After all, things had gone too smoothly up until then.
13. What do you think was going through Tauriel’s mind when Kili is injured?
The assault takes a personal turn for her. A person she connected to not long ago, her friend is injured. She is distracted, but only for a moment; her hatred towards the orcs and her fighting only grow fiercer after that.
14. Do you think the Orc was expecting to end his life in that way?
Exactly like this? Hardly. Though he was probably aware of the possibility that he might not survive the skirmish (an occupational hazard of hunter orcs), especially as the orcs had both the elves and the dwarves to fight with it.
15. Do you think this is yet another reason for dwarves to hate Elves, or are you reading something else here?
It’s just another example of the lack of respect between the two races. Though it’s for a good, common cause here. But as I’m not a big fan of this part of the chapter, I’ll just leave it there.
16. What do you think Legolas is thinking at this moment?
It’s hard to tell whether or not Legolas noticed that Thorin saved his life. One thing’s for sure: he gives up the pursuit. Is it because they’ve eliminated the orcs? Or because he sees that dwarves are out of his reach? Or maybe there’s something more to his decision. Hmm…
Thank you, Queen of Erebor!
“As he caught his footing, his head fell back, and the Milky Way flowed down inside him with a roar.” - Yasunari Kawabata, Snow Country
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Aug 20 2014, 1:24pm
Post #14 of 15
(2529 views)
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Save me from the stubbornness of Dwarves!
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Gandalf's words from AUJ always go through my mind at this point in the movie. Against all odds and expectations, the Dwarves have been rescued from prison...and one of the first things they do is complain about where they are and how their rescuer plans to get them out! 
8. I think that as their leader, Thorin realizes how desperate their situation is in terms of getting to the mountain on time, and that he has just reduced their odds of being released considerably, and he's willing to try Bilbo's way. After all, Bilbo has shown he has courage and some savvy--and what do they have to lose, anyway? It's very satisfying to see him stick up for Bilbo against the other Dwarves!
9-10. It's pretty clear that Bilbo forgot himself (what was I saying about savvy? Never mind.). I wonder why he didn't just pull the lever again and slide out once he realized there was no barrel for him...? Maybe he thought the door wouldn't close again? Anyway, falling straight onto his back from that height like that would surely knock the wind out of him...but I guess Hobbit-hides are tough.
11. Again we see a nice moment of Thorin and Bilbo as equals when Thorin says he did a great job and they even wait for him. This sets up a nice contrast for what will happen later... 
12. Nobody seems to have known where and how the river went, so no, they weren't expecting it. Just as the Elves weren't expecting to get attacked by Orcs.
13. Tauriel definitely has a soft spot for Kili and is sort of keeping an eye on him. Probably not a good plan during an Orc attack, though.
14. As an Orc in a PJ movie, he was probably expecting to get beheaded.
15. The Dwarves and Elves were sort of reluctantly working together here to defeat the Orcs, which is a nice stepping-stone (not, of course, that I'm thinking of Legolas's balancing act that so many of us love in this scene  ) to how they will cooperate in BotFA.
16. I've always been kind of confused about what is going on between Legolas and Thorin here. Thorin saves Legolas's life by killing the Orc behind him, yes. Then Legolas shoots and Orc that has jumped onto one of the barrels. Who is in that barrel? Isn't it Bofur? Anyway, Thorin makes a weird (but manly!! Or do I mean Dwarfly!!) noise that I assumed was because he just got walloped in the face with a big splash of water. But maybe not, and he's mad about something? He seems to be looking at Legolas.
And Legolas doesn't appear to realize he's just been rescued and stands there staring at Thorin. What's up with that? Is he trying to figure out if Thorin is actually a nice guy? Is he wondering if he should give up the pursuit and hunt Orcs instead? 
In any case, this scene is certainly a lot more exciting than in the book. In fact, it has a lot more of everything than in the book. I still like Bombur's barrel bit (although I still haven't figured out where the extra barrels come from), but I could do without so much of the Elf tricks. Just a little too much over the top, I think. However, the way the Dwarves worked together was such a lovely tie to the way they've worked as a team all through AUJ, and even later in DOS.
Also, in regards to the first half of this CHOW, I just have to share that for the longest time, I thought the conversation with "Elros" and the other Elf went like this:
"Say what you like about our intemperate king, he has excellent taste in wine..." Well, it fits! 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Noria
Gondor
Aug 20 2014, 10:46pm
Post #15 of 15
(2527 views)
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8. What do you think is going through Thorin's mind (as well as Bilbo's) when the dwarves refuse to take Bilbo's advice?
-Either Thorin grasped the plan or else he realized that it was too late to draw back and they had to trust Bilbo. It’s cute that Bilbo immediately knew what to do when the Dwarves wouldn't listen to him – appeal to Thorin with just a glance. It’s typical of Dwalin that he would be the one to object. I enjoy how these boisterous, nettlesome Dwarves instantly shut up and obey when Thorin speaks.
9. Do you think Bilbo forgot to include himself on purpose, or was he simply too busy on figuring out how to get the dwarves to safety before worrying about himself?
-I think he honestly forgot to include himself, just like in the book. He seemed surprised to find himself still there after the Dwarves were gone. Excellent work by Martin Freeman.
10. How long do you think it took Bilbo to figure out how to escape the cellar since he was the only one not in a barrel?
-I don’t think that Bilbo ever did figure it out entirely. It looked to me like he was panicky and moving as far from the approaching pursuit as he could, and his escape was almost accidental.
11. Do you think Bilbo was expecting Thorin thanking him for his escape plan, or did he have something else on his mind?
-I imagine that Bilbo had other stuff on his mind at that moment, like not drowning. He may have been surprised that the Dwarves waited for him and was probably gratified by Thorin’s words but the situation was still somewhat intense.
12. Do you think Thorin and the dwarves were expecting the Elves to ban their way like this?
-No I think they likely thought they had escaped and were pretty disappointed to see the river gate close. It’s ironic that it was only the Orc attack that enabled the Dwarves to free themselves; otherwise Bilbo’s plan would have failed and he would probably have been captured too.
13. What do you think was going through Tauriel's mind when Kili is injured?
-It depends on what she feels for Kili, which we don’t know, but was probably at least something like “That @#$% Orc has shot that nice young Dwarf, our prisoner.” But most of her attention was probably on the Orcs trying to kill her.
14. Do you think the Orc was expecting to end his life in that way?
-That Orc probably thought he had a clear swing at Balin, so was likely not expecting an axe or whatever to pin him to the branch. I really enjoy the Dwarves in their badass mode, working like parts of a machine to fight off their attackers.
15. Do you think this is yet another reason for dwarves to hate Elves, or are you reading something else here?
-It certainly wouldn’t endear the Elves to the testy Dwalin or the prissy Dori to have one standing on their heads but it’s funnier that it’s those two who have to endure it. I doubt it means much in the greater Elf/Dwarf conflict, just another example of Elven meanness to the Dwarves. I could do without Legolas standing on Dwarf heads, but seeing how other people in the theatre enjoyed it, I don’t really mind and find it rather amusing.
16. What do you think Legolas is thinking at this moment?
-I’m not sure that Legolas saw that Thorin saved his life but I hope he did because it would add to Legolas’ story in these movies, especially if it complicates his feelings about Dwarves.
-Other comments: I really like this sequence, though I think it goes on too long. I love the music, the cinematography, the action, and if the CGI is sometimes a little obvious, I don’t care a jot. It’s fun. One of my favourite bits is Bombur and the Bouncing Barrel – so funny and such a great moment for Bombur. I've come to enjoy that all his character moments are non-verbal. Bilbo also gets another hero moment when he kills an Orc under the gate.
-IMO the whole river sequence is foreshadowing for the BOFA. Though the Elves, bows and swords in hand, were pursuing the Dwarves at the beginning of the river sequence, as soon as the Orcs showed up both groups turn to fighting their common enemy, saving each other’s lives and so on. Not that the Dwarves weren't trying to escape and the Elves to recapture them. But both Elves and Dwarves are “good” and, whatever their conflicts in the past (and some were deadly), they will unite to fight against “evil”.
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