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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Aug 15 2014, 1:00pm
Post #1 of 21
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Thorin in BotFA and his beloved weapon aka the conundrum of Orcrist
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So in light of Avandel's thread on the imagery of both Thorin (+ the other Dwarves) and Thranduil, plus having discussed Thranduil's weapons and fighting style I would love to complete the circle so to speak and have a discussion on Thorin's tog-up and of course, Orcrist.
Clicky pic to an all-out piece on the sword and of course Thorin pics. So I will not reinvent the wheel.
First, I'd like to know your thoughts on Thorin's fight style, which seem to be conventional (to me) medieval warrior hack and slash, and usually equipped with a shield on his defense/left arm.
Honestly, I'm way more interested in what you think about Thorin wielding Orcrist in the Battle. Because if we go with the book, he never holds the sword again since his vacation stop in the Woodland Realm.
But in the movies, it's going to be a waste not to have Thorin wielding Orcrist in his hero moments. And the details about Orcrist in Cloaks & Daggers is droolsome. Make a beautiful sword only to have it clock the same scenes in the book and nothing else? I don't think so. And there was recent speculation by sharp-eyed folks about new bts Thorin in battle-conditions wielding Orcrist shots.
Movie-wise, Legolas of course has Orcrist at the moment. Will we'll see Orcrist returned to Thorin for his hero moments in some way? If that happens, how? Does how it end up with him have anything to do with Thranduil and Bard appearing at the gates of Erebor? Or will Thorin just make do with grandpa's gear?
But whatever is, and however they manage that, I want to see Thranduil placing Orcrist you-know-where. Not.Anyone.Else.
*ahem* So again, excuse the sparseness of pics - I am running on empty fumes here. But doubtless the lack will be most helpfully remedied by someone in 3, 2, 1... 
PS: Interesting trivia: At this point, there are 939 posts with the word "Thorin" made by Avandel. I have no doubt, with such an impressive record, she'll power past Tol Eressea in no time at all 
I'm a lurker. Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
 Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback by Kerewyn (new, posted 10 August), Four
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
 Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 15 2014, 1:38pm
Post #2 of 21
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Well, when I see him holding it with two hands he almost looks Samuri style. But I don't care much for his favorite spinny move, looks cool on film but way too risky for real life. The picture that I believe you refer to shows Thorin in a pretty wide stance, almost a horse stance, which would generate alot of power - definitely Samuri. Incidentally, there was a thread awhile back where it was speculated that Fili & Kili may have brought Orchrist with them into Erebor, since they are wearing their original armor as they run inside. And I agree, it should be Thranduil (sniff! ).
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NateGate
Rivendell
Aug 15 2014, 2:50pm
Post #3 of 21
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United Cutlery version.....jealous? *picture removed - too large*
Size matters...
http://37.media.tumblr.com/00bbfb5c354255e11cd8386374b03bbe/tumblr_n5p4jtJVNT1siq18no1_1280.jpg
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Aug 15 2014, 9:05pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 15 2014, 5:31pm
Post #4 of 21
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I like Thorin's 'hacking' style. It conveys power and strength – good in such a leader.
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Cillendor
Lorien
Aug 15 2014, 6:44pm
Post #5 of 21
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Can you crop the picture so it doesn't stretch the page?
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 15 2014, 9:08pm
Post #6 of 21
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It was too large. Please resize and you can repost as a reply.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 15 2014, 9:33pm
Post #7 of 21
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*Snigger*
PS: Interesting trivia: At this point, there are 939 posts with the word "Thorin" made by Avandel. I have no doubt, with such an impressive record, she'll power past Tol Eressea in no time at all
Least folks know where I stand *grins*. And I maintain there is a refreshing purity about being completely besotted, it's rather zen-like in the peacefulness of contemplating Thorin's hair banglies . Tho maybe I'll freak Lurker out and do a whole post sometime on my love for orcs *cough - not*.
*Ahem* Orcrist? A lovely thing IMO, lately evidently rivaled by Thranduil's sword in the complexity of its forging - according to WETA's C & D book. But to my completely untutored eye, I could not even really compare the two, as to me they look like (obviously) two completely different weapon styles, and wielded far differently. Outside of the Appendices and WETA books, for the design and type of weapon that Orcrist is, don't think I could do better than the Heir of Durin site with its fascinating essay:
http://thorinoakenshield.net/...the-sword-of-thorin/ which has this:
These types of single-edged swords, with a wide distal end, function rather like axes and machetes. While their curving edge makes them good at slashing like a sabre, the acute angle of the blade allows a strike to cut deeper into the target without having to draw the blade across it. Most falchions and dao do have a slight curve to the spine (the falchion pictured is one of the few surviving examples which does not), while Orcrist is straight along the spine. Keeping the spine straighter means it should also function well as a thrusting weapon. With this in mind, movie version Orcrist is surprisingly versatile, and well-suited to a dwarf. One may presume that a stout dwarf could wield it with the force needed to cut through nearly any orc-made armor.
Without having any sword training at all, I did notice that Thorin does use the sword with flexibility, e.g. to me, slash/cut, thrusts, and my personal favorite the *majestic whirlwind cleaver* (which I just don't have the sw to get good screen caps of, and even clicking through the disks it's hard, as either RA or stuntperson? is just moving so fast (tho I think RA did the bulk of his own fighting, certainly he has said as much for BOFA - yeah!!!). Another poster indicates this "whirlwind" seem to be aesthetically appealing (TRUE) vs. being a wise technique (as it leaves your back open), but having a bro who did some martial arts I wonder.
For one thing, Thorin's moving very fast - and we see Tauriel in DOS push off an orc coming up behind her and knock it into the water in what to me was a potential attack from the back. But it's a similar kind of thing I would think, and she wasn't even deliberately turning until attacked.
For another, a side target is harder to throw off balance than back-to-front - also re the martial arts info the knees are bent, flexible and a side target is less of a target. Also I would think a spinning target is an issue, because you can hit it, but you don't know where your weapon will strike? Maybe some of the warriors on the board can weigh in here? In any case, since through the WETA books the costume designers talk about "silhouettes" of a character onscreen and the importance of that shape, the whole effect IMO with Thorin and Orcrist is to me, well, legendary, in that this is a gorgeous, unique weapon that complements the character. A weapon worthy of "the one they call Oakenshield" and the King Under the Mountain. Also tho it's unspoken, this is a big weapon, not the easiest to wield, which telegraphs much non-verbally about Thorin's skills with weapons.
RA talks about Thorin having a love-hate relationship with Orcist in the C & D book, re Thorin's (initial) distaste for its elvish origins. But I think as shown in the film, this is a dwarf who instantly recognized the fine crafting of the swords - finding Orcrist is one of many favorite scenes and I am glad PJ spent a little time on that - think it was important as was Bilbo receiving Sting.
A few more things I notice in the films - like all the dwarves (except maybe Ori at first) Thorin seems to be comfortable with a wide variety of weapons, and is instantly using the sword easily. Which to me also means Thorin just plain likes it as a weapon (nothing wrong with Deathless which has served Thorin so well and is a beautiful weapon in its own right, but Orcrist is just glorious with its flowing lines and yet hint of savagery with the raptor-claw cross guard? quillon? - need the sword experts here for the terminology ).
It's a comfortable weapon for this dwarf king.
And one of the more poignant things for me re this character, Thorin is "sleeping" - well, he's not sleeping, as RA describes Thorin, Thorin never sleeps easily - but we see Thorin with Orcrist clasped to his chest. I found that moving, because even if warriors regularly sleep with their weapons, to not at least put it to the side - I think was another unspoken informing about this character - e.g., as a character after hiking through the mountains, Thorin must have been exhausted, but he's awake holding Orcrist and staring into the dark.
He can never rest.
I won't rant about the complete offense, as a Thorin fan, of the ELVES taking the weapons and the *sniff* offensive rudeness of Legolas and the psychological significance of taking your enemy's sword and the disrespect etc. Because, well, if you round up UN-invited visitors in your yard, you'd be stupid not to take their weapons. In any case the recent WETA C & D book helped me understand the nature and thought more behind the Mirkwood elves, the threatening conditions they live under, the sickening forest they move through, how these elves ARE ninja-esque shadow-hunters and very dangerous. Just takes me a while to shake off the inset of the courtly Rivendell elves.
In any case, I absolutely think by the end of BOFA that Legolas will have handed Orcrist back to Thorin, no doubt because *sigh* Legolas sees Thorin fighting bravely and Thorin's sword is smashed by an orc-mace (or something like that) and it's this rather predictable, yet satisfying, scenario (in that in any story, a lot of the time you can tell what it going to happen, but it's satisfying anyway LOL). Just hope they don't overdo it....
In the meantime we have Legolas running around with Orcrist, and seeing as it has a jeweled pommel I wince at this:
Tho I guess seeing as the jewels I assume are diamonds, the sword can take it - seeing as it survived the Goblin Wars.
Finally, I really need to move to the U.K., as it looks like the Royal Armoury at Leeds has a fine collection of genuine Hobbit weapons, and has acquired Orcrist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vXMF5aig5I
and I really hope this is a permanent exhibit, not just a temporary one. Because it would DEFINITELY go on my to-do list if and when I am in the U.K. *sigh*.
And for me, Orcrist is Thorin's sword. It will ALWAYS be Thorin's sword. One of my frustrations with the Hobbit movies is I never get to see Thorin wield Orcrist as much as I would like, because watching that is a thing of beauty.
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 17 2014, 8:17am
Post #8 of 21
(3268 views)
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And I sincerely hope Thorin will have the sword returned to him very early in the next film, and that the thieving git's current possession of the sword is not some kind of indication that he will be shown laying it on Thorin's tomb. I would really not want to see that – and it is certainly Thranduil's job.
'In the meantime we have Legolas running around with Orcrist.
And for me, Orcrist is Thorin's sword. It will ALWAYS be Thorin's sword. One of my frustrations with the Hobbit movies is I never get to see Thorin wield Orcrist as much as I would like, because watching that is a thing of beauty.'
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 3:27pm
Post #9 of 21
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The sword of Erebor! *want*!!!!
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Hmmm - I actually think Legolas (predictably) will return Orcrist later than sooner. Not that I don't love the dwarven aesthetic in its own right - the heavy angled swords and knives, the fighting staffs .
(I so want Oin's fighting staff!) But Legolas returning Orcrist will probably some kind of big hero moment for Legolas, proving what a good guy he is and all that blah blah. NOT that I won't enjoy all that anyway
Still there is Orcrist's flowing beauty that I want back in Thorin's hands - but then I saw this on Thorin FB. I am already seeing this as a replica on my wall, right next to Orcrist. Looks like another legendary weapon for a legend of Middle Earth. Plus I am assuming this is a double-edged weapon, makes a nice contrast to the single-edged Orcrist to me, aesthetically
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 4:03pm
Post #10 of 21
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MUCH better than than a statue/figure/statuette/figurine.
I think you need both swords, though Orcrist may now be tainted…
Don't look forward to the ugh 'hero' moment (and I certainly don't mean Thorin's.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 7:36pm
Post #11 of 21
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"MUCH better than than a statue/figure/statuette/figurine. "
Seeing as IMO it seems to be hard to get the faces of statue/figure/statuette/figurines to MY particular standard!
And I have lots of art and imagery thanks to the generosity and talent of the artists who kindly put images online.
But as a friend pointed out, not only are replica swords beautiful home decoration, hopefully you could give a BURGLAR a surprise (tho I suppose a bad-tempered territorial dog might be more useful in that unhappy event). Just love this with the raven motif, the black enamel, and gold and silver.
Hope United Cutlery is going to produce a metal replica!
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 10:28pm
Post #13 of 21
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Too true but the UC Orcrist is like rebar
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It's sharp at the tip. But if I HAD to, I'd probably just use it like a baseball bat - it's HEAVY. On the other hand, don't want to mess up my pretty replica, so I might go for the gardening tools. Folks should not mess with gardeners who have all kinds of interesting ad hoc weaponry. Reminds me of the "less royal" dwarves - Bombur, Bifur, and Bofur.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 11:04pm
Post #14 of 21
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The most interesting ad hoc weaponry is generally kept outdoors, so may not be accessible in time of dire need. The swords are all too easily available indoors, I would imagine. On the other hand, you could easily use a kitchen knife if you didn't want to sully the pretty replicas.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 18 2014, 11:43pm
Post #15 of 21
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*grins* except for crafty Ringers
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Not, of course, that 1) I ever want to go through anything like that and 2) I am any kind of kick-boxing bad-ass. But there's all kinds of stuff about, like a hobbit-hole. Including the long length of copper piping I was going to make into something, but now I can't remember what, so it just sits there. Honestly, tho, going through something like that the last think I'd worry about is THINGS.
Unfortunately a replicas sword is something someone might take, along with the TV. That's why I always enjoyed the story of years ago, these gang-types decided to be bad-ass and stole a Gaboon viper from a zoo. Only they put the snake in a garbage bag, and guess what bit right through the bag. LOL so much for being bad-ass.
http://www.nytimes.com/...e-in-washington.html
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Aug 18 2014, 11:53pm
Post #16 of 21
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I would probably sink through the floor in fear (almost certainly pass out), if I was confronted with anything violent, I'm afraid. I would certainly be easily disarmed should I reach for a knife or other such implement. Not used to violence, so cannot imagine being able to react violently…
If I saw even a glimpse of of anything Orc-like in reality I'm sure I would die of fright.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 19 2014, 2:38am
Post #17 of 21
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Oh, our U.S. city main highways
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like the big city beltways and subways and buses can often be an INTERESTING lesson in man's inhumanity to man. So assuming Thorin and Dwalin have met the same kind of fine citizenry "unsavory types" I completely empathize with the glares those two often have.
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Kim
Valinor
Aug 19 2014, 2:52am
Post #18 of 21
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I'm afraid I don't have much to comment on for the OP as I don't really know anything about swords, other than I think Orcrist is a really unique weapon that fits Thorin well. However, I do have a question about this dwarf made sword, and dwarf swords in general. For those of you who do know swords, do these dwarf swords seem to have really blunt edges? They don't seem quite as sharp as Glamdring or Orcrist, and I'm wondering how effective they would be in comparison.
“Will you follow me, one last time?”
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 19 2014, 2:47pm
Post #19 of 21
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Need a sword expert! but I can guess
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Just from the Orcrist replica and from WETA in the books and the "boot camp" - the dwarf swords are thick so as RA commented a lot of the power comes from the weapon itself. But the replica thanks to the sword thickness is almost like a triangle along the edge - e.g. it's non-edged but guess a knife maker could grind a sharp edge if you want.
And WETA has warnings about the real Orcrist re purchasing- e.g. it might be harder to see but assume at need on film - since WETA says both edged and non-edged blades were used - sounds as tho you can edge all these swords, no problem. Kind of like using a sharp axe that cuts but can go through armor because of the thickness. Assuming you are strong enough, of course.
And assuming the weapon isn't the urethane versions!
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
Thorinitis: Just that smokey barbecue sizzle on a bed of hot embers on a chill autumn night voice making you do things.
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Aug 21 2014, 12:57pm
Post #20 of 21
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But I don't care much for his favorite spinny move, looks cool on film but way too risky for real life. He seems to leave himself very wide open when he does that. I do get the medieval knight swinging broadsword vibe more than Samurai - which is more finessed than what the Dwarves' style feel so far.
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And I agree, it should be Thranduil (sniff!).Thanks for agreeing on this. Really hope we get it as it's meant to be. There is a very nice fanart depicting this moment, but I'll be respectful of Thorinitis sufferers and refrain from sharing it here
I'm a lurker. Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback by Kerewyn, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Aug 21 2014, 1:25pm
Post #21 of 21
(3163 views)
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Hee, Avandel always come through for Thorin Thanks for weighing in
ok... interesting stats:
Avandel (joined 4 Oct 2013): Total post count = 2252, posts with "Thorin" = 983 (44%), posts with "Thranduil" = 497 (22%), avg posts/day=7
In pale comparison
Me (joined 26 Mar 2014): Total post count = 1336, posts with "Thorin" = 203 (15%), posts with "Thranduil" = 511 (38%), avg posts/day=9
Clearly, I have a lot to remedy.
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Least folks know where I stand *grins*. And I maintain there is a refreshing purity about being completely besotted, it's rather zen-like in the peacefulness of contemplating Thorin's hair banglies. Tho maybe I'll freak Lurker out and do a whole post sometime on my love for orcs *cough - not*.don't tempt the musies!  
A lovely thing IMO , lately evidently rivaled by Thranduil's sword in the complexity of its forging - according to WETA's C & D book. But to my completely untutored eye, I could not even really compare the two, as to me they look like (obviously) two completely different weapon styles, and wielded far differently.
Thranduil's beautiful swords are a construct of the movie and the WETA books also noted they are made for him by Mirkwood smiths. Given the differences in Elven culture and across the ages, I'd be surprised if they were similar.
RA talks about Thorin having a love-hate relationship with Orcist in the C & D book, re Thorin's (initial) distaste for its elvish origins. But I think as shown in the film, this is a dwarf who instantly recognized the fine crafting of the swords - finding Orcrist is one of many favorite scenes and I am glad PJ spent a little time on that - think it was important as was Bilbo receiving Sting. Yeah. And I'm hoping we see a MOMENT for Thranduil with his swords too.
And one of the more poignant things for me re this character, Thorin is "sleeping" - well, he's not sleeping, as RA describes Thorin, Thorin never sleeps easily - but we see Thorin with Orcrist clasped to his chest . I found that moving, because even if warriors regularly sleep with their weapons, to not at least put it to the side - I think was another unspoken informing about this character - e.g., as a character after hiking through the mountains, Thorin must have been exhausted, but he's awake holding Orcrist and staring into the dark.
He can never rest.
I won't rant about the complete offense, as a Thorin fan , of the ELVES taking the weapons and the *sniff* offensive rudeness of Legolas and the psychological significance of taking your enemy's sword and the disrespect etc. Because, well, if you round up UN-invited visitors in your yard, you'd be stupid not to take their weapons. In any case the recent WETA C & D book helped me understand the nature and thought more behind the Mirkwood elves, the threatening conditions they live under, the sickening forest they move through, how these elves ARE ninja-esque shadow-hunters and very dangerous. Just takes me a while to shake off the inset of the courtly Rivendell elves.
In any case, I absolutely think by the end of BOFA that Legolas will have handed Orcrist back to Thorin, no doubt because *sigh* Legolas sees Thorin fighting bravely and Thorin's sword is smashed by an orc-mace (or something like that) and it's this rather predictable, yet satisfying, scenario (in that in any story, a lot of the time you can tell what it going to happen, but it's satisfying anyway LOL). Just hope they don't overdo it....
In the meantime we have Legolas running around with Orcrist, and seeing as it has a jeweled pommel I wince at this:  Tho I guess seeing as the jewels I assume are diamonds, the sword can take it - seeing as it survived the Goblin Wars. Well, surely you didn't think he's going to get to do this with daddy's swords did'ya? 
If there's any scrape of logic/sanity in the movie makers' mind, there should be a combined hero moment
ETA to add: gah... i guess my Thrall is showing. Can't resist.
I'm a lurker. Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), two, three, three-appendix: An Unexpected Flashback by Kerewyn, four, five (new, posted 20 August)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Aug 21 2014, 1:27pm)
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I own this sword.....(pic)
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