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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Aug 10 2014, 9:18pm
Post #1 of 10
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The High Elves During the Third Age
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I was wondering if there is any indication on the general amount of High Elves in Middle Earth during the time of the Ring? Celeborn, Galadriel, and Thranduil were asked to rule some of the SIlvan folk but do we know if they brought other High Elves with them to their realms? Elvish history and the distinctions between all the subgroups is very difficult to understand.
Not all those who wander are lost
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 10 2014, 11:06pm
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... I think this is accurate. The term 'High Elves' can be a little tricky in my opinion [see below], but I think...
Imladris (Rivendell): 'mostly' High Elves (The Road Goes Ever On). 'Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris' (Appendix B, The Return of the King). 'After the fall of Gil-galad, Master Elrond abode in Imladris, and he gathered there many Elves...' (...) 'In Eriador Imladris was the chief dwelling of the High Elves; but at the Grey Havens of Lindon there abode also a remnant of the people of Gil-galad the Elvenking.' (Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age).
Mirkwood and Lórien: mostly East-elves (Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings). These East-elves were probably a mix of Nandor and Avari according to some texts, although in the latest text I could find they are Telerin Elves who abandoned the Great March (thus Nandor), and there is no mention of these Elves having been joined by any Avari. Some Sindar migrated from Lindon in the Second Age and ended up in Mirkwood. Some Sindar and Noldor ended up in Lórien.
'The People of Lórien were even then [i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth] much as they were at the end of the Third Age: Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent (as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood, though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known*). They had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who...' JRRT, History of Galadriel And Celeborn, Unfinished Tales
Lindon had a mix of Noldor and Sindar. In the first edition of The Lord of the Rings there are explicitly Noldor in Lindon according to Appendix B, before some went to Eregion. In the revised version Gil-galad dwelt in Lindon north of the Lune (south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn). Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion. In a note published in Unfinished Tales it was said that south of the Lune were largely Sindarin Elves. In the Third Age a 'remnant of the people of Gil-galad' dwelt at the Havens. Some terms:
Noldor 'The Wise, Those who know'
Sindar 'Greys, or Grey-elves'
Nandor 'Those who go back' (often interpreted this way)
Tawarwaith Silvan or Wood-elves
Avari 'Refusers'
'High Elves' [Tareldar] can refer to the Exiled Noldor with respect to Elves of Middle-earth but sometimes seems to have a more general application and include the Sindar.
This is only the top of the mountain with respect to the Elvish clans and migration, and the names of clans.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 11 2014, 12:30am
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The term High Elves as employed in RGEO (published by JRRT in 1967) refers specifically to the Noldor in my opinion, thus 'mostly' High Elves in Imladris would equal mostly Noldor in that text.
Again, I do think at least a couple of instances of High Elves in the larger corpus includes the Sindar, or arguably so, but more often it refers to the Noldor in a Middle-earth context (as of course there are High Elves in Aman, West Over Sea).
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 11 2014, 12:31am)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 11 2014, 3:29pm
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another neat aspect of cirdan.... elsewhere in middle-earth, more "powerful" and "learned" elves rule over lesser. the sindar over the silvan. the noldor over the sindar.
cirdan is the only one who reverses this pattern. in the latter days of his rule of the grey havens, many noldor formerly ruled by gil-galad and other noldorian princes are now ruled by him -- a telerian elf (should we consider him nandor?) who never travelled to aman, and did not live as a subject (as the sindar did) of melian and thingol, and thus did not get the second-hand light and learning from the blessed realm from their eyes and rule.
can anyone think of other examples?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 13 2014, 11:15am
Post #5 of 10
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Perhaps Amdir and Amroth ruled some of the Noldor from Eregion? Appendix B admittedly suggests that the remnants of destroyed Eregion settled Imladris with Elrond, but in a late note Tolkien sems to imagine that not all of the Noldor went that way.
In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn it was said: "but many Sindar and Noldor came to dwell among them, and their Sindarizing under the impact of Beleriandic culture began". It is not made clear when this movement into Lorinand took place; it may be that they came from Eregion by way of Khazad-dum and under the auspices of Galadriel."
But when this was written Amroth was Galadriel's son and the Elves of Lorinand were ruled by their own princes [or had no rulers before this impact began]... but in a late explanation (Unfinished Tales) Amroth becomes the son of Amdir, a prince of Sindarin origin, and it is noted that:
A) 'The people of Lorien were even then [i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth] much as they were at the end of the Third Age: Silvan Elves in origin but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent (as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood; though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known). They had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age. At that time Elrond went westward...'
Another note states that after the destruction of Eregion: B) Celeborn and Galadriel "passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien."
So did these Noldor leave with Galadriel? I don't know; and at the moment I can't find an explicit statement either way.
A and B competie with each other regarding Galadriel's movements: in A these Noldor haven't necessarily followed Galadriel herself into Lorien (unlike B), since she seems to have gone to Lindon at some point -- that is, it's noted here that Celeborn went to Lorien with many Noldor and when Sauron withdrew to Mordor 'Celeborn rejoined Galadriel in Lindon'.
Did some Noldor become part of the Silvan Folk and remain under the rule of Amdir? Any more relevant details to help answer this question? Will I stop asking questions now?
Perhaps this explains the Quenya named Rumil of Lorien 
Although if he was following Galadriel around then he wasn't under Amdir or Amroth's rule necessarily.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Aug 13 2014, 4:01pm
Post #6 of 10
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Although Lord of the Falas, Cirdan accepted the overlordship of Elwe Thingol. And though he was not a "high elf" in the sense that he never lived in Valinor, he was tutored directly by Ulmo and Osse. So he might not have had great knowledge of craft as the Noldor or wisdom as the Vanyar, he was nevertheless was one of the greatest mariners/ship builders in Arda.
Cirdan is likely one of the oldest beings in Arda and probably older than most Elves in Valinor. Other than Olwe and Ingwe, which elves pre-date him? Very few, no (remember Finwe and Elwe are dead and in the Halls of Mandos and Finwe's heir Finarfin was born after Cirdan)?
I would ran Cirdan among the high elves, even surpassing Elrond and Galadriel.
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Aug 13 2014, 8:02pm
Post #7 of 10
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and it explains why Cirdan was given one of the Rings of Power. He may have been the greatest Elf alive at this time period despite never have been in Valinor. It is rather odd that the Ships to the Undying Lands go through him who was never there. Does it ever mention when or if he eventually left Middle Earth?
Not all those who wander are lost
(This post was edited by rangerfromthenorth on Aug 13 2014, 8:03pm)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Aug 13 2014, 10:00pm
Post #8 of 10
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He sailed with the Last Ship...
[In reply to]
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Which, if we consider the legend of Legolas and Gimli to be true, it was really the Next-to-last Ship.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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PhantomS
Rohan
Aug 21 2014, 3:56pm
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The Noldor (the actual 'High' Elves) are the smallest minority in the Elven world, since most of the survivors of the First Age had taken ship and returned (or gone to) to Valinor, leaving Gil-galad, Galadriel and Celebrimbor as leaders of the small Noldor community. They centered themselves in Eregion, Lindon and Imladris.
Elrond is the only one of the Elven leaders who explicitly has Noldorin Elves living under his roof, It's likely that Cirdan also has some Noldor under his rule at Lindon, but he rules his own group of Elves (the Falathrim). Galadriel lives among Celeborn's people- Sindar and silvan Elves and has never mentioned a Noldorin servant or helper. Given her lofty standing among Noldorin royalty, it is a bit strange to see her not having any Noldorin followers or advisors at all.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 21 2014, 9:32pm
Post #10 of 10
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Elrond is the only one of the Elven leaders who explicitly has Noldorin Elves living under his roof, It's likely that Cirdan also has some Noldor under his rule at Lindon, but he rules his own group of Elves (the Falathrim). Galadriel lives among Celeborn's people- Sindar and silvan Elves and has never mentioned a Noldorin servant or helper. Given her lofty standing among Noldorin royalty, it is a bit strange to see her not having any Noldorin followers or advisors at all.
I think my first reply to the original post offers citations that speak to more Noldor than Galadriel in Lorien, at least at one point [note my question in a subsequent post], and High Elves [as in Noldor] in Lindon as well as Imladris. One could note this much from RGEO too: "The High-Elves (such as did not dwell in or near the Havens) journeyed to the Tower Hills at intervals to look..."
... as I think that means there are High Elves in the Havens too, to go along with other descriptions.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 21 2014, 9:36pm)
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