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dreamflower
Lorien
Aug 7 2014, 1:24pm
Post #1 of 39
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Did Gandalf ever use Narya?
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And if so, when and how?
This is a question I've been pondering for a while. Obviously Círdan thought that he would need it:
“Take now this Ring, for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.”
I like to think that he must have made use of Círdan's gift; it seems a rather obvious thing that the Elf must have had some foresight that it was needed. Yet if he did, the indications are very subtle—after all it is not until he is leaving at the Grey Havens that we even realize that he has it.
There is, of course, Gandalf's affinity for (beneficial) fire, but we do not know if his occasional use of magic in order to create fire and light is part of his own nature as an Istari, an ability granted by Narya, or a blend of both: his own ability enhanced by the Ring of Fire. (I am inclined to either the first or maybe the last explanation, but shouldn't logically dismiss the second without more examination.)
The ability to “rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill” is rather more problematical. The only occasion of which I am fairly certain he must have been using this ability was when he went among the defenders in Minas Tirith, and they took heart from his presence. It seems from the emphasis in that passage that something more than just a little encouragement is going on.
But there are several times when he is present when a character manages to summon up the courage to pursue a certain course of action. This leaves open the idea that he might have used Narya to coerce a character—something that seems very much against Gandalf's character as one who is in favor of Free Will.
But it says Narya will “re-kindle” courage, not create it. So the character must already have the courage to be “re-kindled”. Is it coercion to help someone realize that he is braver than he thought he was?
So, if he (to use one probable example) used Narya to wake up Bilbo's Tookish side, would helping the hobbit to realize his own wish for Adventure be wrong? Would it be manipulation, or merely a form of persuasion?
And if he did, what are other possible events that he might have used Narya to influence?
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Sebastian the Hedgehog
Rivendell
Aug 7 2014, 3:30pm
Post #2 of 39
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I never thought of Narya being behind the sudden courage of others. As to whether he used it any other times, I don't have an answer. However, if its power was actually used in the situations you mentioned, I don't think it would be a bad thing or against Gandalf's 'morals', for lack of a better word. In the Valaquenta it says of Olorin (who is Gandalf) that he learned of pity and patience from Nienna in Valinor and that in later days he took pity on the sorrows of the Children of Iluvatar, and those who listened to him "awoke from despair and put away the imagination of darkness". This makes me think that Gandalf's main priority was the good fortune of all, rather than free will. This information also leads me to believe that Gandalf was 'manipulative' (again, for lack of a better word) by his own power. Perhaps Narya just gave him a little extra boost as Sauron's power grew stronger before/during the War? Also, like you mentioned, it doesn't necessarily sound like he is violating free will if he's not creating one's courage.
I really like this topic, especially since the Istari are rather mysterious 
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Meneldor
Valinor
Aug 7 2014, 3:51pm
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I think Gandalf's fire was more light than heat.
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He used his fire-light to combat the darkness of the enemy, revealing truth, showing the enemy in its anger and fear, allowing his allies to see things as they truly are, and that's what inspired them to stand against the darkness. "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Back to the OP, I think using Narya to help him do that would be perfectly in accord with the will of Eru.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 7 2014, 5:06pm
Post #4 of 39
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All good questions. and most unanswerable to any degree of certainty. The powers of Narya, for the most part, remain an enigma.
Was Narya simply a “toy” with which to make super fireworks or to give a “glow” to Gandalf’s wand, or to make fireballs to throw at orcs – No! It had to be much more, as Cirdan only hinted at its powers “to rekindle hearts”, to “support and defend” Gandalf from weariness. Cirdan gave this most valuable gift subordinating himself to Gandalf as he knew the heart and mind of Gandalf and from whence he came.
Gandalf stated to the Balrog, “I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.” Was the Ring the raison d'etre here, or was this innate in Gandalf?
I think Narya may have given its bearer not only the physical powers mentioned but many other mysterious qualities that can only be speculated on. But I also think that if we give too much power to the Ring we take away from the native power of Gandalf to an equal degree.
I wonder if Gandalf kept Narya in his pocket as it was never seen until the Grey Havens after the destruction of The One. But then if he didn’t wear it would it be “active”. But then if he did wear it it must have been invisible.
So the “workings” and “uses” of Narya, as well as the other two remain, for the most part, vague; and, hey, that’s not so bad. To have ALL the answers takes away from the enjoyment of the mysterious.
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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dreamflower
Lorien
Aug 7 2014, 8:04pm
Post #5 of 39
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Of the way he used light to reveal truth, and through the truth, the courage is kindled. (For some reason this brings to mind his healing of Théoden--which is not something I'd previously thought of as a possible use of Narya!) An idea very much in the spirit of Arda; I don't completely dismiss the heat aspect. I see that aspect in Gandalf's hands as beneficial fire, that gives warmth and comfort, while fire as wielded by the enemy is the destructive sort.
And I have to say I am very inclined to think that Narya mostly gave a "boost" to his own native power.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Aug 7 2014, 8:10pm
Post #6 of 39
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I like your references to his First Age activity
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It's those passages that make me think that his greatest asset was his compassion (or as JRRT always put it, Pity). I think his patience and his compassion were what made him able to find success where the other Istari failed. Perhaps it was those qualities that Cirdan found in him, moreso than any of the other Istari?
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dreamflower
Lorien
Aug 7 2014, 8:15pm
Post #7 of 39
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And the fun of speculating and asking questions
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I don't think he'd have drawn on Narya's power as a "toy", so he must have had some innate ability with light and fire as well, to account for fireworks and colored smoke rings. Perhaps just a teensy bit to enhance such things, perhaps not at all. I just don't think it would have been given to him for no reason.
As to its invisibility, no one seemed to see Vilya, and only Frodo saw Narya at Galadriel's request. I think perhaps on the hands of those who wielded them, the Three must have been the opposite of the One, and hidden themselves.
But it would also be like him to keep it in his pocket most of the time, so who knows?
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Cari
Bree
Aug 7 2014, 11:58pm
Post #8 of 39
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I believe that Gandalf may have used Narya to keep away weariness during his many long travels, such as when Frodo has a vision of Gandalf on horseback travelling in an unknown land. This makes sense to me since Cirdan spoke about preventing fatigue and weariness. Gandalf also is known as the great wanderer/traveler.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Aug 8 2014, 1:51am
Post #9 of 39
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I would guess that you are right about that
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In fact, it's my guess that perhaps that function of Narya might even work without Gandalf doing anything about it at all--an automatic function, perhaps. I say this because ALL the rings appear to automatically preserve the wearer, though I would guess extending life only works on mortals. But it might help, as you say, allay some of the weariness and hardship of his wandering life.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 8 2014, 6:02pm
Post #10 of 39
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Gandalf also is known as the great wanderer/traveler.
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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Cari
Bree
Aug 8 2014, 11:38pm
Post #11 of 39
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The Grey Wanderer is a Great Wanderer lol
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 9 2014, 12:18am
Post #12 of 39
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The Grey Wanderer is a Great Wanderer - for sure
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The Great Wanderer
The Grey Wanderer
The Grey Pilgrim
Gandalf the Grey
Gandalf Greyhame
I'm certainly glad he turned White 
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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Cari
Bree
Aug 9 2014, 12:47am
Post #13 of 39
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You could make a Rhyme out of that xD
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Ithilisa
Rivendell
Aug 9 2014, 3:44am
Post #14 of 39
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I think Narya may have given its bearer not only the physical powers mentioned but many other mysterious qualities that can only be speculated on. But I also think that if we give too much power to the Ring we take away from the native power of Gandalf to an equal degree.
I agree, Bracegirdle. Weren't the Istari Maiar? If I recall correctly, the Istari were Maiar sent to Middle Earth to aid the races of M.E. to fight Sauron but forbidden to reveal their true identities and, though as powerful as Sauron (another of the Maiar), they were forbidden by the Lords of the West to match Sauron power for power. I've thought that Gandalf did his best to follow those conditions and that Narya might have aided him in areas he would have otherwise been restrained in due to those conditions. If it also helped in the creation of his fireworks, so much the better.
"I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!" - Gildor
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 9 2014, 4:41am
Post #15 of 39
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the Istari were Maiar, and were forbidden to match Sauron’s power with equal power. But it is questioned whether they could as Sauron was (in the beginning) of a higher order of Maia than Gandalf and (presumably) the other Maiar (meaning Istari in this case).
I believe Gandalf always held fast to his commanded prohibitions. Only in a couple of cases did he seem to use his full power (in attempt to save his own life). First in the encounter with the Nine Nazgul atop Amon Sul, and second, during his fight with the Balrog. He spent his many years in organization, counseling, and encouraging the Free Peoples of Middle-earth, thus holding fast to the stipulations of the Valar.
Cheers
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Aug 9 2014, 9:38pm
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Wasn't the primary purpose of the Three Rings to preserve and heal? I would think that a lot of Narya's power went into preserving Gandalf's strength throughout his difficult life in Middle-earth.
Actually this just occurred to me. Saruman took up residence in Orthanc fairly early on. Radagast seems to have stayed in Mirkwood and did not take an active role in the events of MIddle-earth. Could it be that part of the reason Gandalf was able to accomplish as much as he did was because he had the extra help of Narya?
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dreamflower
Lorien
Aug 9 2014, 11:24pm
Post #17 of 39
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Or did he have the help of Narya
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Because Cirdan saw that he would be the one to succeed? Gandalf did not put himself forward, he wasn't proud or a seeker of knowledge for knowledge's sake, and the only power he wished to have was the power to do good. (Yet he was able to resist the One because he knew that good would not ultimately come from it.)
I wonder: Saruman showed what would happen if pride took an Istari over; perhaps Radagast was the result of too much humility (he became a hermit and was humble enough to associate with animals, a mythical sign of humility). Gandalf perhaps was the "middle ground". He seemed to have a realistic view of his own strengths and weaknesses.
What role Narya truly played is never spelled out for us, but I think perhaps its main function may have been to enhance Gandalf's own abilities when necessary.
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Aug 10 2014, 2:15am
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I think there's a good chance that both are true. Certainly Círdan perceived something different about Gandalf.
While I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Radagast was the more humble of the three, I feel like his failing wasn't excessive humility. It seems that he got too caught up with Middle-earth to fulfill his duty to its inhabitants. He was good hearted, but in his own way he got distracted as Saruman did.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Aug 10 2014, 2:28am
Post #19 of 39
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Well, if we hold that the primary function of the Elven rings was to 'heal' or 'preserve', perhaps the quote of Cirdan to Gandalf might mean that it 'preserved' his strength, giving him more stamina to accomplish all the things he did.
"Take this ring, Master, for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. ..."
-Appendix B: "The Tale of Years,"
I take this view in light of another quote from Unfinished Tales:
"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned [..}"
- Unfinished Tales: 'The Istari'
So he had a real body-- and old man's body. Can you see any other person at 65+ doing what Gandalf did?
We also might consider his healing on Zirak-zigil. Did his regenerative ring stave off decay so that he could be reembodied? He did return to the same place in M-E, so I assume it was a resurrection of his old body, but I confess I might be wrong...
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Aug 10 2014, 2:46am
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I always thought it was a new body
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But I could be wrong. He certainly was more powerful, since he told Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli that their weapons couldn't hurt him.
That's an excellent point about Narya giving Gandalf stamina. I think that's probably the most likely scenario.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Aug 10 2014, 3:11am
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I had thought it was more of a sharpened mind...
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I always assumed that Gandalf was 'purged' in a sense, of most of the extraneous mental clutter that he had accumulated over the centuries. He said that he 'once knew every spell in all the tongues of the Elves, Men, and Orcs.', so, coupled with his seeming amnesia, I thought that he had been reinvigorated to a state similar to his arrival in M-E, before all those distractions and non-mission related information taxed his brain. Thus, I believe he was 'restored' to a previous state rather than 'empowered'.
Just a few thoughts....
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Aug 10 2014, 6:44pm
Post #23 of 39
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I am gratified to hear that it makes some sense...
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I started to think about it a while ago, and having Eru send him back as more powerful seemed to be a bit of a cheat and the sort of thing that the Istari were forbidden to do-- namely, to match power with power. The re-appearance of Gandalf the Grey (Version 2.0) could very well be called an ex deus machina, but in my proposed scenario, I think that is becomes more of an evolution in the narrative. Gandalf becomes what he was supposed to be through the trials he had during his life in Middle-Earth, however he needed this catalyst--death-- to fully transform. Why?
Well, in some ways, I think we could say that Gandalf failed. I don't mean that he forgot his mission, never won a battle, or finally brought the forces of Good to victory-- of course not!! What I mean to say is that he was not totally perfect. He was a Maiar, but by assuming a corporeal form, he added feet of clay to his vast strength and wisdom. The whole of his mission turned out right, but can you imagine if he had stayed with the Company of Dwarves? Mightn't he have been able to influence things to a better outcome? What of all the time that he spent in the Shire while not actually fighting Evil? He himself admitted a mistake in trusting Saruman's word over his own judgement. Now, none of these things were wrong, but you can see how his effectiveness was a little diminished as he focused on Hobbits, pipe-weed, and fireworks.
On the other hand, though, I think that this distractedness was what saved him from the evil the ensnared Saruman. Saruman was constantly battling evil, and until he looked into the palantir, I think he was safe, but in his zeal to defeat Sauron and preform his mission, he was lost. Gandalf's 'humanity', if we can call it that, was his saving grace, as it influenced him to act out of love and concern for his friends. Sometimes it caused him to act foolishly, in light of his mission (How was he to fight Sauron by dying in Moria?), but it kept his intention pure and free of pride or the corruption of power. Radaghast took this distractedness too far, but it too saved him from wittingly becoming evil, for as Gandalf said, he did not pass along Saruman's message to lure Gandalf out in malice, but by becoming too engrossed, he lost complete sight of his mission.
I could tie this into the Wizard's respective colours, but I've rambled enough, so I will attempt to summarise:
Gandalf the Grey was purged, Saruman the white was defiled, and poor Radaghast will never get the dirt stains of Middle-Earth out of his robes.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 10 2014, 7:54pm
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We can be assured that the body of Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White were one and the same as he lay for 19 days atop Zirak-zigal: Gwaihir: “A burden you have been,” he answered, “but not so. Light as a swan’s feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. . .” This was on Feb. 17 and about 13 days later (Mar. 1st) he meets the Three Hunters in Fangorn. I figure he spent about a week healing in Lorien and then four or five days walking to Fangorn (to further strengthen his resurrected body), as he …sat in a high place, and strove with the Dark Tower... on or about Feb. 26. Then:
’Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.” It seems here that his body was fully healed (as you quote that no weapon of the Three Hunters could harm him), but his mind pondered things of more importance. I never have liked this sentence as it, as Rem calls it, a seeming amnesia. (Perhaps his body healed more rapidly than his mind?) Nevertheless, this seems to be the singular time he has an episode of “forgetfulness” if we choose to call it such; or we could assume it was just a jogging of the memory, as he surely retained or regained his 2,000 years of knowledge gathering. To be “purged” as Rem puts it – are all those centuries for naught? I think naught.
Of interest to me also is his newly acquired powers as Gandalf the White, as these (physical) powers were never shown or used to near the degree of Gandalf the Grey’s. As The White he was much more the counselor and advisor. The only instance I recall of a physical power is the rescue of Faramir. Even at the Pelennor it was just his presence (a singular time). Or even at the Battle of Helm’s Deep it is questionable whether he swung sword, or was it just his shining presence that panicked the orcs?
Cheers, ** BG rambling **
“Uva uvam vivendo varia fit."
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Aug 10 2014, 10:10pm
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To say that he was 'refined' or 'distilled'. His power was reinvigorated by the diminishing of the other factors in his life. I'm sure that nothing he did was truly unnecessary.
Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life.- Galadriel
However, it all took up room in his life and added strain and worry to his mind. body, and spirit. I propose that Gandalf's amnesia was not quite a loss of memory, but more of a re-concentration and re-prioritization of his mental and physical powers. The things that were less critical were pushed further into the back of his consciousness, while the powerful spells and overriding directive of his mission was pushed to the forefront of his mind. He could recall the things he did in the previous centuries, but they were more remote and detached in his subconscious mind, requiring more effort to recall them.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Is that the Grey Wanderer?
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