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vexx801
Rivendell
Aug 5 2014, 11:30pm
Post #1 of 16
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Elrond and Isildur
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I am certain this question has come up before, but I raise it again. During the conversation between Gandalf and Elrond in Rivendell, we get a flashback focusing on Elrond and Isildur. In this flashback, Elrond tells Isildur to cast the ring into the fire of Mt. Doom, and Isildur simply says "no" and walks out as Elrond calls after him. So perhaps this is a movie-only question, perhaps there is a relevant book passage I am forgetting. But... any idea why Elrond, at Mt. Doom, within feet of the weapon of the enemy... doesn't simply grab it from Isildur and cast it into the fire himself? For the story's sake, I understand why it doesn't happen. If it did, parts of The Hobbit and all of the Lord of the Rings would not have happened. Understood. But did Elrond not approach Isildur because Isildur had to give it up of his own free will? I know in the book Gandalf says that Bilbo was the only ringbearer to do this. Is there some connection? Isildur could have grown powerful or something had Elrond tried to take it? Or did he simply not realize its true power at that time? Or was he not supposed to interfere with men? In other words, I'm curious if there is an in-universe explanation. Any thoughts?
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 6 2014, 1:51am
Post #2 of 16
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is Gandalf's when he explains the matter to Frodo:
"I told Bilbo often that such rings were better left unused; but he resented it, and soon got angry. There was little else that I could do. I could not take it from him without doing greater harm, and I had no right to do so anyway." ...... "But why not destroy it, as you say should have been done long ago?" cried Frodo again. "If you had warned me, or even sent me a message, I would have done away with it." "Would you? How would you do that? Have you ever tried?" "No. But I suppose one could hammer it or melt it." "Try!" said Gandalf. "Try now!" Frodo drew the Ring out of his pocket and looked at it. It now appeared plain and smooth, without mark or device that he could see. The gold looked very fair and pure, and Frodo thought how rich and beautiful was its colour, how perfect was its roundness. It was an admirable thing and altogether precious. When he took it out he had intended to fling it from him into the very hottest part of the fire. But he found now that he could not do so, not without a great struggle. he weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket. Gandalf laughed grimly. "You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not "make" you - except by force, which would break your mind....." Elrond could not have snatched the Ring from Isildur without breaking or killing him. And where Gandalf was easily more powerful than Frodo and could have done so, the difference in strength between Elrond and Isildur was not nearly as great. And he had no right to, even if he had been able. The one who tries to take the Ring from another by force against their will opens himself even more to its influence - which according to Gandalf was a major difference between Gollum and Bilbo and the speed with which the Ring took hold on them. If Elrond had broken Isildur and taken the Ring, it would have had an opening to enslave him, and he would not have been able to destroy it either. In Tolkien's world, you cannot do wrong things even for right reasons and not be affected, and the Ring exploits every moral weakness.
Silverlode Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here! "Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 6 2014, 2:38am
Post #3 of 16
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...is that's Elrond's/Hugo Weaving's voice saying "no". Seems this may not be how it really was, but rather how Elrond remembers it after two thousand years of guilt, grief, and tragedy. That is, Elrond, like Bilbo in the books, may be a bit of an unreliable narrator and it didn't quite happen that way. (Note the fresco in the Rivendell library of Isildur confronting Sauron isn't quite the way it was portrayed in the prologue.) In the book nobody thought it strange for Isildur to take the ring, and even considered it rightfully his as weregild for his father's death. So perhaps, years later, after Elrond realized the danger of the ring, and that an opportunity to destroy it had been lost so long ago, Elrond needed to blame someone, and rather than blaming himself for not seeing how evil the ring was, he began to blame Isildur. Post traumatic stress disorder can be funny that way.
****************************************** “The opinions that are held with passion are always those for which no good ground exists; indeed the passion is the measure of the holders lack of rational conviction. Opinions in politics and religion are almost always held passionately.” -Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays
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Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell
Aug 6 2014, 4:17am
Post #4 of 16
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The importance of not applying hindsight...
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Whenever this topic comes up, two things jump to my mind: 1. What follows is the sum total of knowledge of the Wise about Sauron's Ring and what would happen if Sauron were to be 'killed' and someone else were to take possession of the Ring: __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ [End of total knowledge] At the moment Isildur took the Ring, ignored advice, and (in the movie) walked away from Sammath Naur, nobody knew what would happen. Not Elrond, not anyone else. No one knew this would allow Sauron to linger in the world. No one knew any ill effect that would come upon the new bearer. Elrond (and Cirdan) had a bad feeling about it - and that was all. Everything else we come to learn in the story is acquired through hindsight not available to Elrond on the slopes of Mt. Doom. 2. In light of 1, it would be entirely improper for Elrond to take any action at all against Isildur, who, at that moment, is the biggest deal in Middle-earth, as it were. Most times I have seen this question asked, the questioner wants to know why Elrond doesn't just push Isildur into the lava, which depresses me that people even have to ask.
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Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell
Aug 6 2014, 7:35pm
Post #5 of 16
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That's a very good answer, Silverlode!//
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What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?
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Magradhaid
The Shire
Aug 7 2014, 2:09am
Post #6 of 16
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Additionally, while Isildur took the Ring from Sauron on the slopes of Mount Doom, in the books he and Elrond didn't go into the Sammath Naur. Sure, it was close by, but the two of them didn't go there and have Isildur then refuse to cast it in. Elrond counseled him on the slopes; Isildur refused and took it as weregild, and neither entered the inside of the mountain. This makes Elrond pushing Isildur in the fire a bit harder. ;) Though I agree with the previous posts as to why Elrond just doing it himself or taking the Ring from Isildur wouldn't be a good idea.
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Ithilisa
Rivendell
Aug 12 2014, 6:16am
Post #8 of 16
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I agree, nice answer Silverlode.
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Nicely put Silverlode. Though reading what you wrote combined with the fact I just finished studying "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" again, I wonder if the relationship between Gil-galad and Elendil might also have (to a lesser extent than what Silverlode mentioned) affected Elrond's reaction. After all, Elrond was Gil-galad's herald and Isildur was Elendil's son. It was more complicated than Elrond counseling just some random soldier.
"I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!" - Gildor
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Loresilme
Valinor
Aug 13 2014, 6:41pm
Post #9 of 16
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A good read - informative with a touch of humor. Thanks :).
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Dec 9 2014, 1:48am
Post #10 of 16
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and this is just me speculating - that Elrond and Isildur had to have by this point known each other so well due to sieging Barad-dur for 7 years and fighting other battles together, that Elrond would never want to harm someone who had become such a good friend.
(This post was edited by KingTurgon on Dec 9 2014, 1:48am)
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Ithilisa
Rivendell
Dec 9 2014, 7:16am
Post #11 of 16
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That's a good point. All that time fighting together would form a bond between allies/ friends that would have made it that much complicated for Elrond in that situation. Viewing that scene from that context adds a lot more depth to what was really transpiring between them. I like that. You speculate well.
"I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!" - Gildor
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Dec 9 2014, 7:44am
Post #12 of 16
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I will say the Second Age is kind of my specialty when it comes to Middle-earth lore. I just love the epic storyline and seeijg all the different kingdoms work together. Look at the dynamic between the leaders (Gil-galad, Elendil, Oropher, Durin IV) of the Last Alliance for example. I don't want to type it all out on my phone so suffice it to say it's interesting. Google "Michael Martinez last alliance" if you are interested. :)
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Ithilisa
Rivendell
Dec 9 2014, 6:03pm
Post #13 of 16
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Oh goody,more depth to explore
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Thanks! I'll definitely Google that. The earlier portion of this thread got me more interested in reading what Tolkien wrote about Gil- Galad and Elendil, but I hadn't looked at the others in the Last Alliance. I'll be sure to do that. There is so much to explore about the Second Age.
"I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!" - Gildor
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 9 2014, 6:21pm
Post #14 of 16
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When he went to war Isildur entrusted the safety of his wife and their infant son Valandil to Elrond's House. When he was ambushed at Gladden Fields he was on his way to see Elrond for counsel because he had become troubled by the ring. Isildur and Elrond were buds.
****************************************** "Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a wizard coming down along the road and this wizard that was coming down along the road met a nicens little hobbit named Bilbo Baggins."
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Ithilisa
Rivendell
Dec 11 2014, 6:55am
Post #15 of 16
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Isildur was going to see Elrond?
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He was going to see Elrond? Wow, I thought he was heading to the Northern Kingdom...[pulls out UT]...oh, I see now. Thanks.
"I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!" - Gildor
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Dec 14 2014, 7:43pm
Post #16 of 16
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I think Gil-galad and Elendil were buds as well - they planned the war, fought Sauron together, and died together. That's one of the things I like about the Second Age - seeing the relationships between these powerful figures and different races in the face of the threat of Sauron. Not that they weren't in the other Ages, but I like the ones in the Second Age most because Tolkien gives the reader some leeway to read it how he or she would like to.
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