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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Chapter of the Week: King and Captain
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BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 1 2014, 11:19am

Post #1 of 37 (1008 views)
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Chapter of the Week: King and Captain Can't Post

DOS Chapter of the Week: King and Captain


Hi, folks, and welcome to another CHOW! This week we’re breaking down DOS Chapter 11: King and Captain, in which we witness Bilbo lurk around in the Woodland Realm and have the Elvenking converse with the Captain of the Guard.


Off we go!


Reminiscent of the scene from the beginning of film where we had Bilbo peek over the rocks with Gandalf’s “… which is why we are going to need a burglar” still echoing in our ears, we jump to Bilbo, invisible, sneaking through the Halls of Thranduil seconds after Thorin’s “Not our only hope.”





1. Do you think this makes a good transition from one scene to another?


All of a sudden, Thranduil steps out from behind a corner and seemingly turns to Bilbo. “I know you’re there,” he says. “Why do you linger in the shadows?”
Bilbo freezes, thinking he has been found out.


2. Did you see through this little “trick” or did you fell for it?


Suddenly, Tauriel steps out of the shadows behind him. Realizing that the king was talking to her instead, Bilbo sighs in relief.
“I was coming to report to you,” says Tauriel.





3. Why *did* Tauriel “linger in the shadows”?


“I thought I ordered that nest to be destroyed not two moons past,” expresses Thranduil his dissatisfaction.
“We cleared the forest as ordered, my lord, but more spiders keep coming up from the south,” replies Tauriel. “They are spawning in the ruins of Dol Guldur; if we could kill them at their source-”
She is unable to finish.
“That fortress lies beyond our borders,” Thranduil interrupts her. “Keep our lands clear of those foul creatures, that is your task.”
“And when we drive them off, what then? Will they not spread to other lands?”
Thranduil remains apathic. “Other lands are not my concern,” he announces.






“The fortunes of the world will rise and fall, but here in this kingdom, we will endure.”


4. Thranduil has been described as an isolationist. What do you make of this characteristic of his and the way it is portrayed?


Bilbo sneaks away; Thranduil, hearing or sensing something, looks his way.





5. Note how it’s Thranduil, not Tauriel, who hears Bilbo leave/senses the presence of a third person in the room. Is it purely a coincidence or do you think it is intended to have a greater meaning? If so, what?


However, he quickly turns back at Tauriel who bows and prepares to leave.






“Legolas said you fought well today,” he says.
Tauriel can’t help but smile.






“He has grown very fond of you,” continues Thranduil.
Tauriel, surprised and embarrassed, looks away.





“I assure you, my lord, Legolas thinks of me as no more than a captain of the guard.”
“Perhaps he did once,” replies Thranduil. “Now, I’m not so sure.”
Thranduil walks past Tauriel to pour himself a cup of drink. Tauriel stays rooted in her spot, looking worried.
“I do not think you would allow your son to pledge himself to a lowly Silvan elf,” she says.
“No, you are right. I would not,” is Thranduil resolute. “Still, he cares about you. Do not give him hope where there is none.”
Tauriel looks anguished.





6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas? What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?


7. Why is Thranduil against the idea of his son “pledging himself” to a Silvan elf?


The following is an excerpt from an interview with Evangeline Lilly:

Quote
You mentioned something that sort of triggered something in my mind, which is ‘Tell me something about her past’ and a lot of people won’t know because it doesn’t have a place in the film anymore. At one point it kind of did, but a part of Tauriel’s backstory is that she is an orphan. Her parents were killed by orcs. When you understand that, you suddenly understand how and why this girl became the lethal killing machine that she is, how she became the head of the elven guard, how she got taken under Thranduil’s wings, and why she’s so passionate about fighting the evil that is in Middle Earth. (my emphasis)



8. How does this relationship play out in this scene? Does it at all? How would you describe the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil and their attitudes towards one another?


9. Do you think will see further interaction between these two characters in BOFA? Under what circumstances might this happen?


10. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?


Next, we have Bolg and his orcs spy on the gate to the Woodland Realm.






“The gates are guarded,” says one the orcs.






They stride away down the river.


11. Why does Bolg say “not all of them” when the gate they attack the next day clearly is guarded? Is it a mistake on Bolg’s behalf or a continuity error?
EDIT: Bolg’s line „Shugi golgai” is subtitled incorrectly: it should say “Filthy Elves”, not “Not all of them”. (Thanks, Bofur01, for pointing that out!)

12. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?


Fire away! Smile


(DOS transcript used in the making of this CHOW: https://docs.google.com/...XQl08xz-U/edit?pli=1)


“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau

(This post was edited by dernwyn on Aug 1 2014, 12:56pm)


Bofur01
Rivendell


Aug 1 2014, 12:06pm

Post #2 of 37 (430 views)
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Sorry for the lack of analysis, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

For number 11, it's subtitled incorrectly... What Bolg actually says is "Filthy Elves" (Shugi golgai) and not "Not all of them"


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 1 2014, 12:15pm

Post #3 of 37 (395 views)
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I see! Thanks for clearing it up! [In reply to] Can't Post

Scratch that question then.


“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 1 2014, 12:45pm

Post #4 of 37 (384 views)
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It seems both sentences are incorrectly subtitled [In reply to] Can't Post

"Tud-dad nu" should be "They guard their territory", not "Follow me".
Source: http://www.elendilion.pl/...ish-and-quenya-hdos/.


“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau


Name
Rohan


Aug 1 2014, 1:07pm

Post #5 of 37 (392 views)
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Wait so did the production team actually get it wrong? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Glorfindela
Valinor


Aug 1 2014, 1:50pm

Post #6 of 37 (397 views)
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Minor observation [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't have time to respond in detail, but just to say that I really like the way Thranduil senses Bilbo – nice touch by the film-makers, which I think adds to Thranduil's 'other-worldliness'.


Bofur01
Rivendell


Aug 1 2014, 2:04pm

Post #7 of 37 (374 views)
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They almost certainly knew what it meant.. [In reply to] Can't Post

..but changed it to increase tension.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 1 2014, 8:55pm

Post #8 of 37 (337 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Do you think this makes a good transition from one scene to another?

It works. And clues the audience in on what's supposed to happen next.


2. Did you see through this little “trick” or did you fell for it?

As Jackson said of Gandalf’s Bag End hand-out-of-the-darkness grab of Frodo in LOTR, it’s an old cinematic trick, but always gets a jump out of the audience if done right. This was done right.


3. Why *did* Tauriel “linger in the shadows”?

It’s one of those awkward inadvertent intrusions where you know shouldn’t interrupt but you also know it’s too late to back out, so you just stand there trying to not get noticed until the conversation you walked in on is over. Basically you just stand there intently studying the woodwork.


4. Thranduil has been described as an isolationist. What do you make of this characteristic of his and the way it is portrayed?

Seems like Thranduil has gone native and abandoned The Great Journey. He’s staying. Kinda the exact opposite of the LOTR elves.


5. Note how it’s Thranduil, not Tauriel, who hears Bilbo leave/senses the presence of a third person in the room. Is it purely a coincidence or do you think it is intended to have a greater meaning? If so, what?

The King and the caverns are one.


6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas?

Doubt it. Just like Legolas, she hasn't met the right Dwarf yet.


What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?

She’s freaked that her relationship with Legolas has moved into The Friend Zone. Very awkward.


7. Why is Thranduil against the idea of his son “pledging himself” to a Silvan elf?

Silvans are barely above the Avari. And besides, when Legolas hears the call of the gulls and Tauriel remains behind, what of the children?


8. How does this relationship play out in this scene?

Almost mirrors the Denethor/Boromir/Faramir thing.


Does it at all?

Somewhat.


How would you describe the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil and their attitudes towards one another?

Tough love. Sensei-seito. A less sadistic Denethor-Faramir relationship.


9. Do you think will see further interaction between these two characters in BOFA?

Don’t see how they can avoid it.


Under what circumstances might this happen?

“If more people cared about the fortunes of the world, and less about merely enduring in their own little cave, it would be a merrier world”.

(Didn’t Treebeard get taught a similar lesson?)


10. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?

Nice.

******************************************
“The opinions that are held with passion are always those for which no good ground exists; indeed the passion is the measure of the holders lack of rational conviction. Opinions in politics and religion are almost always held passionately.”
-Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays





(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 1 2014, 8:58pm)


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Aug 1 2014, 10:58pm

Post #9 of 37 (320 views)
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Pardon my drooling over Thranduil while I answer the questions [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Do you think this makes a good transition from one scene to another?
Yes, I thought it worked very well. First we hear that the dwarves have hope of escape and then we see what that hope is: Bilbo made it inside Thranduil’s halls and has managed to stay hidden.


Up until that point (at least, if you haven’t read the books) we don’t know if Bilbo made it through the gate before it closed or not. So, there is now a sense of relief that he did make it in and might be able to let the dwarves out of their cells.


2. Did you see through this little “trick” or did you fell for it?
I accidentally got spoiled on this part of the movie before I saw it, so I knew beforehand that Thranduil didn’t really see Bilbo.


3. Why *did* Tauriel “linger in the shadows”?
I always assumed that she was nervous about delivering her report, because the return of the spiders made it look like she hadn’t done her job the first time. Also, she seems to have already thought through this “kill the spiders at their source” idea and may have had reservations about presenting it to Thranduil, since he is clearly against his people going beyond the borders of the realm.


4. Thranduil has been described as an isolationist. What do you make of this characteristic of his and the way it is portrayed?

I think Thranduil is an isolationist because he is still afraid of the return of the darkness that used to be over the lands before the Last Alliance. He’s seen the evil and destruction that the darkness brings with it and has felt its effects on his own life and family (his father and two thirds of his fighting force were killed in the Last Alliance). He doesn’t want that to happen again and has convinced himself that he and his people can simply hide within their walls, live their lives away from the light and pretend like the darkness isn’t coming back. Fear has blinded him to the troubles of the outside world.

As for the way it is portrayed: It’s portrayed very well, IMO. It’s pretty darned clear that he doesn’t want to get involved.


5. Note how it’s Thranduil, not Tauriel, who hears Bilbo leave/senses the presence of a third person in the room. Is it purely a coincidence or do you think it is intended to have a greater meaning? If so, what?

I don’t think it’s a coincidence at all that Thranduil, not Tauriel, heard Bilbo. Thranduil is clearly hyper-aware of his surroundings at all times, which may be the reason he’s lived as long as he has. I think it may also be foreshadowing the fact that he and Bilbo will meet in the next movie, and with his lightning-quick deductive skills, Thranduil will probably figure out that this hobbit is the one who was sneaking around his halls and helped the dwarves escape. Sneaky, tricksy, hobbitses…


6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas? What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?
IMO, Tauriel thinks of Legolas first and foremost as a friend and a brother, but may secretly hope that there could be something more between them, someday. Or, at least, if some feeling should develop between them, that she would have permission to return them. This is the reason why she seemed disappointed when Thranduil said, no.

7. Why is Thranduil against the idea of his son “pledging himself” to a Silvan elf?
I don’t know. I guess because she’s not of royal blood? (Maybe he would have preferred if Leggy got together with Arwen.Tongue)



8. How does this relationship play out in this scene? Does it at all? How would you describe the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil and their attitudes towards one another?

Given the fact that I didn’t know they had such a relationship, until Leggy mentions in a later scene that Thranduil protected and favored Tauriel all these years, I guess it didn’t play out very well in this scene.

Uhhhhhh…I don’t know how to describe it.


9. Do you think will see further interaction between these two characters in BOFA? Under what circumstances might this happen?

I guess they’ll have to come back into contact at some point, and whether or not Tauriel will be in trouble for defying orders will depend on whether or not Thranduil has changes his view when they do meet.

"Love woke me up this morning
With a memory
Love came and whispered a story
That awakened a dream,

I am a dreamer, take me higher
Open the sky up, start a fire
I believe even if it's just a dream"
~"Dreamer" by Bethany Dillon



Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 2:16am

Post #10 of 37 (294 views)
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Here goes [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Do you think this makes a good transition from one scene to another?
Yup. Good transition. Also resolves Bilbo's Logan Run at the gate timelinessly (is that a word?), before the audience forgets it.

2. Did you see through this little “trick” or did you fell for it?
Fell, in a good way. Was caught for a moment that Thranduil did see Bilbo, as i had kept myself utterly away from all possible spoilers and had a moment's panic wondering if this was one of the controversial changes that gets purists' undies in tangled messes. I think my expression was more shocked than Bilbo, and when Tauriel answered, my sigh of relief was probably weaker due to the excitement. Tongue

3. Why *did* Tauriel “linger in the shadows”?
Practising her spiel for a sack on Dol Guldur... and probably wondering if her hair is presentable.

4. Thranduil has been described as an isolationist. What do you make of this characteristic of his and the way it is portrayed?
Well, I've quite spoiled myself with regards to Thranduil in the movie now so it's perfect AngelicHeart to me. Though just referencing the bits in the books we get about him, it's not surprising. His beliefs and opinions are probably quite along the lines of Oropher (who kept moving north cos he wants nothing to do with either Lothlorien or dwarves), and he did survive the War of the Last Alliance more than splendidly, along with the remnants of the army Oropher left to him. Combine those two and I find it utterly in character that Thranduil at this time is an avowed isolationist.

5. Note how it’s Thranduil, not Tauriel, who hears Bilbo leave/senses the presence of a third person in the room. Is it purely a coincidence or do you think it is intended to have a greater meaning? If so, what?
I think this is nicely played against the opening of the scene. Interesting that Tauriel walks right by Bilbo as he sighed and never sensed anything but Thranduil could sense something even Bilbo was getting further. If nothing else, it's a shorthand for the distinction between this powerful old Elf and the lowly Silvan captain.

6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas? What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?
Seems to be. Heartbroken and disappointment? But then it seems not? I don't get this part, especially when viewed within the larger context of the plot. If the writers were trying to be clever about this, they sure made a large cloying cauldron of goopy i-dunno-what-that-was.

7. Why is Thranduil against the idea of his son “pledging himself” to a Silvan elf?
No idea, and no handle on it, except maybe to show his haughtiness and classism to the general audience? But it's against character re Oropher's aim to go back to the roots and be as the Silvan. So perhaps its the advancing shadow affecting him, in reference to the Forest and King link.

8. How does this relationship play out in this scene? Does it at all? How would you describe the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil and their attitudes towards one another?
Business-like for the most part. Of course we get the backstory hint later when Legolas mentioned the relationship between the three of them. But here, in her pacing about and gesturing, and even the forcefulness of her tone about going to DG, Tauriel does seem to have a bit of carte blanche with regards to proper conduct with the King, a little like Legolas in the later scene.

Also interesting is the contrast of her constant motion against the stillness of Thranduil, who she is trying to move, without success of course. This is in itself a great contrast against his behavior in the earlier audience with Thorin where the roles were somewhat reversed. And of course Tauriel doesn't have the awesome majesty of the King's
tempestuous grandeur. Tongue She is just more earthy/rustic and more direct.

9. Do you think will see further interaction between these two characters in BOFA? Under what circumstances might this happen?
If she is worth her knives, she will report back to Thranduil and accept the punishment for her leaving the Realm without leave, which will be arreared upon the King's pleasure after he hauls the dragron hoard back home.

10. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?
Love the details in the scene, the bed and table with its decanter and glasses makes this seem like Thranduil's private quarters though it does seem like it's rather too open for privacy... but maybe Elves aren't big on that. The background is amazingly rendered too.

Thranduil is of course majestic even in that marvellously voluminous robeHeart

The lighting is apt for indoor caves, but still gives that light airy quality we've come to expect of Elven abodes.


12. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?



Quote
EDIT: Bolg’s line „Shugi golgai” is subtitled incorrectly: it should say “Filthy Elves”, not “Not all of them”. (Thanks, Bofur01, for pointing that out!)

That makes why more sense! Thanks for sharing, Bofur01.




Just call me Lurker. Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Laineth
Rivendell

Aug 2 2014, 2:46am

Post #11 of 37 (283 views)
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Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas? What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?
Seems to be. Heartbroken and disappointment? But then it seems not? I don't get this part, especially when viewed within the larger context of the plot. If the writers were trying to be clever about this, they sure made a large cloying cauldron of goopy i-dunno-what-that-was.


Personally, I've always seen it as shock and disbelief. Her jaw drops and she kind of has this 'I can't believe I'm hearing this' look on her face. Then she just looks disturbed - understandably so, since Thranduil is warning her off Legolas at the same time he is saying Legolas has feelings for her (apparently. I personally haven't seen that yet).


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 3:27am

Post #12 of 37 (259 views)
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Yeah, all that too. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Personally, I've always seen it as shock and disbelief.





Just call me Lurker. Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 8:43am

Post #13 of 37 (234 views)
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Thanks for the answers, Darkstone! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The King and the caverns are one.

Ooh, well put!

In Reply To
Doubt it. Just like Legolas, she hasn't met the right Dwarf yet.

Laugh


“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 8:47am

Post #14 of 37 (229 views)
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Thanks for taking the time to answer, Eruvandi! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Fear has blinded him to the troubles of the outside world.

Well said!

In Reply To
I think it may also be foreshadowing the fact that he and Bilbo will meet in the next movie, and with his lightning-quick deductive skills, Thranduil will probably figure out that this hobbit is the one who was sneaking around his halls and helped the dwarves escape.

Yes, that has crossed my mind too.


“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 8:50am

Post #15 of 37 (242 views)
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Hey, Lurker! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Interesting that Tauriel walks right by Bilbo as he sighed and never sensed anything but Thranduil could sense something even Bilbo was getting further.

Oh, yes, indeed. Nothing random here, I'm sure of it.

In Reply To
No idea, and no handle on it, except maybe to show his haughtiness and classism to the general audience? But it's against character re Oropher's aim to go back to the roots and be as the Silvan. So perhaps its the advancing shadow affecting him, in reference to the Forest and King link.

Hmm, interesting thought.

In Reply To
Also interesting is the contrast of her constant motion against the stillness of Thranduil, who she is trying to move, without success of course. This is in itself a great contrast against his behavior in the earlier audience with Thorin where the roles were somewhat reversed.

Nice observation! Again, I doubt it's a coincidence.

Thanks for answering!


“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Aug 2 2014, 11:16am

Post #16 of 37 (243 views)
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Another scene chock-full of subtleties [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Do you think this makes a good transition from one scene to another?
Yes, it does—right up there with
SMAUG: “No blade can pierce me!”/Enter Bard carrying Black Arrow

2. Did you see through this little “trick” or did you fell for it?
I didn’t see through it the first time. I know how these Elves have psychic powers…


3. Why *did* Tauriel “linger in the shadows”?
That’s a good question. I think it’s because she’s gathering her courage to bring up the idea of killing the spiders at their source. She knows he’s opposed to participating in the outside world and she’s summoning her arguments.

4. Thranduil has been described as an isolationist. What do you make of this characteristic of his and the way it is portrayed?
Well, I don’t think there can be any doubt that he is one! I think it’s clear, especially after his comment about facing the great serpents of the north, that he’s been scarred more than just physically (perhaps by the horrendous death of his father Oropher and his army) and is reacting to that experience by isolating himself and his kingdom. (Shades of Doriath, anyone?)

5. Note how it’s Thranduil, not Tauriel, who hears Bilbo leave/senses the presence of a third person in the room. Is it purely a coincidence or do you think it is intended to have a greater meaning? If so, what?
Well, Tauriel is apparently just a lowly Silvan Elf, after all. She’s not going to be the one to hear an invisible Hobbit. (At least, according to Thranduil. Tongue) I think it’s a clue that not only is Thranduil extraordinarily perceptive, but that there could be some kind of later connection with the Elvenking and the Hobbit (as in the book).

6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas? What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?
I’m not sure exactly what Tauriel’s feelings for Legolas are—all I can tell from her reaction is that she is very much upset. I’m just not sure why. Is it because of Thranduil’s isolationist attitude? Because he has dismissed her suggestion (as captain of the guard) to kill the spiders at their source? Because she would have no hope for a match with Legolas? Because Legolas will be very disappointed? Crazy

7. Why is Thranduil against the idea of his son “pledging himself” to a Silvan elf?
Because he’s a snob?

8. How does this relationship play out in this scene? Does it at all? How would you describe the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil and their attitudes towards one another?
It isn’t obvious in this scene except that there is obviously a degree of familiarity and trust there since Tauriel reports to Thranduil in his private chambers. It plays out more later when Legolas catches up with Tauriel and Legolas mentions that Thranduil has protected her for 600 years (or something to that effect).

9. Do you think will see further interaction between these two characters in BOFA? Under what circumstances might this happen?

Thranduil is obviously going to have a change of heart to some degree. Whether he will be able to do this and acknowledge it in Tauriel’s presence remains to be seen (literally).

10. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?
(a) I enjoy this scene because of the complexity of the subtext—the emotions swirling around, and how well that complexity is being portrayed by these two actors. Fabulous.
(b) Thranduil has marvelous clothes. I love Thranduil’s digs. I totally want to follow Bilbo around as he explores the Elvenking’s palace. Including his closet. Also, I want to jump into Thranduil’s Jacuzzi.Cool
11. I don’t know Black Speech, of course, but if these really are subtitled incorrectly for the sake of added drama—boo, hiss!
Thanks for the CHOW, BF! Smile


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Aug 2 2014, 11:22am

Post #17 of 37 (229 views)
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Good observation, Lurker [In reply to] Can't Post


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Also interesting is the contrast of her constant motion against the stillness of Thranduil, who she is trying to move, without success of course. This is in itself a great contrast against his behavior in the earlier audience with Thorin where the roles were somewhat reversed. And of course Tauriel doesn't have the awesome majesty of the King's
tempestuous grandeur. Tongue She is just more earthy/rustic and more direct.




I like this thought! Smile It's also kind of indicative of their respective philosophies, isn't it? She's raring to go do something in regards to the evil in the world, and he's determined to stay put. Also interesting that Tauriel has to come to him...he's firmly established in his own chambers.


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Aug 2 2014, 11:28am)


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 11:24am

Post #18 of 37 (220 views)
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Glad to see you, Riven Delve! [In reply to] Can't Post


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I think it’s a clue that not only is Thranduil extraordinarily perceptive, but that there could be some kind of later connection with the Elvenking and the Hobbit (as in the book).

I sure hope you're right!

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It isn’t obvious in this scene except that there is obviously a degree of familiarity and trust there since Tauriel reports to Thranduil in his private chambers.

Good point.

Thanks for taking the time to answer!


“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Aug 2 2014, 5:00pm

Post #19 of 37 (206 views)
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Oh, and one more thing... [In reply to] Can't Post

In all the close-ups of Tauriel in this chapter, we can clearly see her necklace. I wonder if we will be given any clue as to its importance in the EE?

(If I have my way, the EE is going to have at least 5 hours of extra footage. Wink)


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Kim
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 6:30pm

Post #20 of 37 (215 views)
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Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Do you think this makes a good transition from one scene to another?
Sure. It was nice to see that Thorin (for the first time?) was actively placing hope and trust in Bilbo.


2. Did you see through this little “trick” or did you fell for it?
Fell for it. For a minute, I thought that Thranduil might have some kind of special powers or sense of perception.


3. Why *did* Tauriel “linger in the shadows”?
Probably nerves about having to report to Thranduil about having to fight the spiders again, and perhaps not knowing how he would react to their new prisoners.


4. Thranduil has been described as an isolationist. What do you make of this characteristic of his and the way it is portrayed?
I had kind of the same reaction as Tauriel when he said, “other lands are not my concerns.” It’s giant spiders, for pete’s sake! If you don’t want them on your lands, why should others?


I also think it’s interesting she comes to report to him when he’s alone, and in his bed chamber – wouldn’t a king usually be surrounded by courtiers? And receive reports in more formal quarters? Or he just does as he chooses and makes others follow him where he wants to be? Or maybe it was that he received Thorin in the grand throne room to try to impress, intimidate and show his power, but he doesn’t need to do that with someone he trusts like Tauriel? Or maybe he already plans to grill her about Legolas, and wants to do it in private.


5. Note how it’s Thranduil, not Tauriel, who hears Bilbo leave/senses the presence of a third person in the room. Is it purely a coincidence or do you think it is intended to have a greater meaning? If so, what?
Hmmm, maybe he was just closer? And she was focused on listening to her king.


6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas? What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?
Well, at first it just seems that she’s proud that her work has been noticed, and that the prince told his father. But as soon as he mentions Legolas’s feelings, she feels uncomfortable, especially discussing it with his father. So maybe she does have feelings, but thought they were secret and known only to herself.

7. Why is Thranduil against the idea of his son “pledging himself” to a Silvan elf?
Tauriel acknowledges her place in the pecking order when she says, “lowly”, so that immediately tells the movie-goer that’s not good enough for a prince.


8. How does this relationship play out in this scene? Does it at all? How would you describe the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil and their attitudes towards one another?
There does seem to be a closeness between them in that he’s received her in his private quarters, but there’s still certainly a barrier. He doesn’t really come off as a father figure to her, and very much protective of his son and making sure she knows her place.

9. Do you think will see further interaction between these two characters in BOFA? Under what circumstances might this happen?
I imagine we’ll see them together during the aftermath of Lake-town and lead up to the battle. Or will he be angry with her for leaving and not want her to fight with the other elves? Hmmm.

10. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?
I thought they both did a great job, I especially like Evangeline’s response when Thranduil says, “no, you’re you are right, I would not.” For a second maybe her hopes were raised, then just as quickly dashed. Thranduil’s robe was quite impressive, although again I think it’s rather informal to wear when receiving an official report. The music was a nice light take on Tauriel’s theme.


11. Why does Bolg say “not all of them” when the gate they attack the next day clearly is guarded? Is it a mistake on Bolg’s behalf or a continuity error?
EDIT: Bolg’s line „Shugi golgai” is subtitled incorrectly: it should say “Filthy Elves”, not “Not all of them”. (Thanks, Bofur01, for pointing that out!)

Interesting correction on the sub-titles.

12. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?


Thorin’s hair: well obviously, the reason why Thranduil is so irritated in this scene is that he’s still thinking about Thorin’s glorious hair and wondering why he can never get his own to be all thick and wavy, no matter how much he tries messing around with mousse and with curlers.

Thanks BlackFox!


“Will you follow me, one last time?”


Kim
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 6:51pm

Post #21 of 37 (194 views)
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Nice observation [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
Also interesting is the contrast of her constant motion against the stillness of Thranduil, who she is trying to move, without success of course. This is in itself a great contrast against his behavior in the earlier audience with Thorin where the roles were somewhat reversed.


Her pacing in this scene always caught my eye - I like your comment that it reflects her trying to convince Thranduil without success. And how it contrasts the previous scene where Thranduil was trying to do the same with Thorin. Guess Thranduil learned a thing or two from our majestic mountain king. Tongue



“Will you follow me, one last time?”


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 7:05pm

Post #22 of 37 (187 views)
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Thanks, Kim! [In reply to] Can't Post


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Or maybe it was that he received Thorin in the grand throne room to try to impress, intimidate and show his power, but he doesn’t need to do that with someone he trusts like Tauriel? Or maybe he already plans to grill her about Legolas, and wants to do it in private.

Both seem entirely plausible explanations to me.

Quote
Thorin’s hair: well obviously, the reason why Thranduil is so irritated in this scene is that he’s still thinking about Thorin’s glorious hair and wondering why he can never get his own to be all thick and wavy, no matter how much he tries messing around with mousse and with curlers.

Oh, Kim... Laugh


“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Aug 2 2014, 7:10pm

Post #23 of 37 (196 views)
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*snert* [In reply to] Can't Post


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the reason why Thranduil is so irritated in this scene is that he’s still thinking about Thorin’s glorious hair and wondering why he can never get his own to be all thick and wavy, no matter how much he tries messing around with mousse and with curlers.



Suddenly I had the image in my head of Thranduil in pink curlers and fuzzy slippers... EvilSly


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Kim
Valinor


Aug 2 2014, 7:14pm

Post #24 of 37 (187 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

they would match that oversize robe he's wearing. TongueLaugh

“Will you follow me, one last time?”


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Aug 2 2014, 7:41pm

Post #25 of 37 (202 views)
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Heh. [In reply to] Can't Post

And yet there's a saying in Middle-earth...Do not meddle in the outfits of Elvenkings, for they are subtle and quick to free your wretched head from your miserable shoulders. Or something like that. Wink


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”


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