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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Moria

noward_uvm
Registered User

Jul 31 2014, 1:00am

Post #1 of 24 (545 views)
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Moria Can't Post

Hey all, I was just curious about something that Glóin said in the Fellowship of the Ring. In the chapter The Council of Elrond, Glóin talks about how Black Riders came to King Dáin and said,

“It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever.”

My question is does Sauron have control over the Balrog, Durin's Bain, or how was he planning on controlling the Balrog in order for the dwarves to reoccupy Moria. Or, as may be the case, were they just lying?

I'm new to this community but thank you all in advance for any help you can give!


CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 31 2014, 1:35am

Post #2 of 24 (355 views)
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Great question [In reply to] Can't Post

and welcome!

My own view is that Sauron was lying and promising to give things he had no intention of delivering. He might have given back the Dwarf-Rings--possibly--in the hope of ensnaring their wearers, even though it never worked before. Maybe he thought he could get it right this time around, and then he could rule Moria through the Dwarf-Rings.

It's hard to say how much he controlled the Balrog. He outranked it, in a sense, and they had served the same master in the Elder Days that precede LOTR, so they were on the same evil side. But the Balrog, once awoken, stayed beneath Moria and never went off to serve Sauron in Dol Guldur or Moria--why was that? Did it want to stay and be the lord of its own realm and didn't recognize Sauron as its boss, or did Sauron tell it to stay put in Moria to keep that realm under evil control as his deputy?

Sauron doesn't control all evil things. Shelob is a good example of that, and she lived within his borders. So could he really order the Balrog out of Moria so the Dwarves could move back in if he regained the One Ring if he were to make good on his promise? Has the Balrog been independent so long it would put up some resistance? I believe Sauron could overcome it, but would it be worth the fight?

My questions lead me to answer your question in this way: he was lying and wouldn't give Moria back, and probably couldn't if he wanted to. Gandalf called him the "Base Master of Treachery," and I think Gandalf was right when he resorted to name-calling.


Cari
Bree

Jul 31 2014, 4:25am

Post #3 of 24 (324 views)
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Most likely lying. [In reply to] Can't Post

There was no way at that point in time that Sauron could have gained control of Moria. Even if he did take Khazad-Dum he would certainly not give it to the dwarves who were created by Aule for the intent of fighting Melkor's servants.


Wilros
The Shire


Jul 31 2014, 1:24pm

Post #4 of 24 (306 views)
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Yup, Lying [In reply to] Can't Post

As the others have said, Sauron was most likely lying. Just ask Gorlim the Unhappy how it worked out when he trusted Sauron to keep a promise. Or how it worked out for the Numenoreans who took Sauron's advice on worshipping Morgoth and declaring war on the Valar in order to gain eternal life. I think there is a pattern here...


PhantomS
Rohan


Aug 1 2014, 1:39am

Post #5 of 24 (285 views)
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Sauron is showing his ignorance [In reply to] Can't Post

He is trying to lure the Dwarves with the same whispers that brought Balin and his followers to ruin in Moria. However is is dangling bait that the Dwarves will no longer take- Dain himself saw the Balrog and didn't want to press the assault during the War of Dwarves and Orcs, so the messenger would be preaching to deaf ears. Sauron thinks Dain will take the three rings and the lordship of Moria, which Dain will certainly not. Gloin is sent to get Elrond's advice because Dain can't take a full on attack by Sauron, yet will not bend to the Dark Lord.

Sauron cannot possibly control the Balrog, as they had never actually been under his command. Sauron didn't even take part in the Sack of Gondolin, where Gothmog was prominent. The messenger seems to hint that Sauron can guarantee lordship, but the Dwarves know from Balin's experience that it wold be temporary, and foolhardy.


noward_uvm
Registered User

Aug 1 2014, 2:16am

Post #6 of 24 (282 views)
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Thanks All and Second Question [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, thanks everyone, that really did clear it up. Moria has always fascinated me more than any other place in the Lord of the Rings cannon. Not sure if it is the magnitude of the mines, the mythology of it, or the fact that was once just an awe inspiring place that has been laid to waste.

Another quick question, what do you think happened after the Balrog was defeated. Is there ever any indication that the death of the Balrog, and of Sauron later on, would result in dwarves trying to take back the mine?

Thank you all again!


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Aug 1 2014, 3:54am

Post #7 of 24 (277 views)
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Moria in the Fourth Age [In reply to] Can't Post

From Foster’s Complete Guide to Middle-earth:

There is no mention of a recolonization of Khazad-dum by the Dwarves in the Fourth Age, despite the death of the Balrog.

I know of no references to whether the Heirs of Durin (or any Dwarves) attempted to rebuild Moria in the Fourth Age. (Anyone?) It does seem rather unlikely, as Moria was an enormous Dwarf city and it was a time of the dwindling of the Dwarves and Elves, and the increase and domination of Man.

Cheers

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Meneldor
Tol Eressea


Aug 1 2014, 4:45am

Post #8 of 24 (267 views)
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We do know that Gimli [In reply to] Can't Post

eventually rebuilt the gates of Minas Tirith with steel and mithril. Where did he get the mithril?


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Cari
Bree

Aug 1 2014, 5:16am

Post #9 of 24 (261 views)
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Durin VII [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Appendix A- Durin's Folk Durin VII grandson of Dain retakes Moria after the war of the ring and restores Khazad-Dum until the end of days.


emre43
Lorien

Aug 1 2014, 8:31am

Post #10 of 24 (258 views)
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Yes - [In reply to] Can't Post

although without the book to hand, I thought it was Thorin Stonehelm who reclaimed Moria.


Elthir
Gondor

Aug 1 2014, 3:08pm

Post #11 of 24 (251 views)
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Durin VII and Last [In reply to] Can't Post

That's from the Appendix A drafts however -- thus this description was possibly rejected or simply lost when the Appendices were being prepared for publication. It notes that Durin returned to Moria and there was light again in deep places, and the sound of hammer and harp '... until the world grew old and the Dwarves failed and the days of Durin's race were ended at last.'


In Appendix A [in sections published by JRRT himself] it was said of Durin '... but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in the House so like to his Forefather...' while the genealogy in the same section (on the chart), contains 'Durin VII and Last'.


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Aug 1 2014, 5:09pm

Post #12 of 24 (237 views)
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Gimli got his mithril [In reply to] Can't Post

Legend has it that very early in the Fourth Age there was a cosmic cometary collision with Earendil, and a large portion of Vingilot (of mithril and Elven-glass) spiraled down to Middle-earth, and by amazing happenstance landed near the Pelennor. Rumor has it that Gimli took advantage of this uncanny occurrence and was able to remake the Great Gate with steel and this most providential arrival of mithril.

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Aug 1 2014, 6:31pm

Post #13 of 24 (223 views)
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Durin VII at Last [In reply to] Can't Post

During the beginning of the Fourth Age could we then assume that Durin VII et al made a few excursions to Khazad-dum and routed out the remaining orcs, orclings, and orcettes, in attempt to reoccupy their great city? But as construction of Moria was begun many thousands of years in the long past First Age by Durin I the Deathless it seems most doubtful that the dwindling Dwarves of the Fourth Age could even begin to match its previous sheer size and majesty. Of course we must assume that it was massively destroyed by the orcs and balrog.

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


squire
Valinor


Aug 1 2014, 7:18pm

Post #14 of 24 (232 views)
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I tend to go the other way [In reply to] Can't Post

If Tolkien tried out the idea of a revived Fourth Age Moria in his draft appendix, and then didn't include it in the published version, I suspect it was because he realized it would be inconsistent with the entire point of the Fourth Age. Yes, to a certain degree it constitutes a happy ending, certainly happier than had Sauron won. But it is an essential feature of The Lord of the Rings that, as Theoden realizes:
‘However the fortune of war shall go, may it not so end that much that was fair and wonderful shall pass for ever out of Middle-earth?’ (LotR III.8)
Consider Gimli's revealed role as the last important Dwarf, rather than the vague prophecy about the mythical line of Durins. He replaces Moria and Erebor with Aglarond, in which his people symbolically abandon their obsession with gold, mining, and crafts in favor of an almost-Elvish pure aesthetic wonderment, and he rebuilds the gates of Aragorn's revived Kingdom of Men using fabulous amounts of mithril*. It's almost as if Moria itself had been absorbed into and subordinated to a more-glorious-than-ever Minas Tirith.

I believe Tolkien realized that any attempt to recolonize Moria would unwisely compete with, and diminish, this last worldly flourish of the Dwarves before they indeed faded away with the Elves, the Ents, the Hobbits, and the rest of the "strange creatures beyond count."

*And yes, where did they get it? I'll offer the idea that rather than the Dwarves risking Moria's curse, the Men of the West found a lot of mithril in Sauron's surviving vaults in Mordor! Finders keepers.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Aug 1 2014, 8:01pm

Post #15 of 24 (219 views)
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I think we trod the same “other way” [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I believe Tolkien realized that any attempt to recolonize Moria would unwisely compete with, and diminish, this last worldly flourish of the Dwarves before they indeed faded away with the Elves, the Ents, the Hobbits, and the rest of the "strange creatures beyond count."

Consider my “post 7” wherein I thought it unlikely that Moria would be rebuilt.
But I also see no reason that Durin VII or Thorin Stonehelm might want to take a quick gander at this majestic Dwarven city. The curiosity would kill me…
My "post 13" above was just musings in response to those thinking Moria was reoccupied.

Cheers
BG

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


squire
Valinor


Aug 1 2014, 8:21pm

Post #16 of 24 (220 views)
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Musing is good [In reply to] Can't Post

Muse away. And no offense meant during a gentle conversation.

Also, belated congrats on coining 'orcette.'

I've never seen it before, having myself only reached as far as 'Balrogette.'



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Aug 1 2014, 9:46pm

Post #17 of 24 (210 views)
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And the Balrogette served a baguette, [In reply to] Can't Post

and the Orcette served an omelet, and each ate their fill, and all was well in the land. SmileSmile

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Elthir
Gondor

Aug 2 2014, 2:44pm

Post #18 of 24 (183 views)
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Nice post squire [In reply to] Can't Post

Plus 'finders keepers'... LOL


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 2 2014, 2:45pm)


rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Aug 2 2014, 7:13pm

Post #19 of 24 (188 views)
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I am going to give a slightly different take on this question.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course Sauron is lying, he is always lying to his enemies. But as far as the Balrog goes, we do not know if Sauron was in control of it, but I would not write off the idea so quickly. In Moria we see that the orcs/goblins are working alongside and with the Balrog and the Orcs and Goblins are more than likely under the influence of Sauron. If Dain knew about the Balrog and the Orcs knew about the Balrog, then I am pretty sure Sauron knew about the Balrog. Was he controlling it? Who knows, but they were probably not rivals and Sauron did out rank the nameless Balrog. So it is feasible that Sauron is at least in league with the Balrog if not controlling it to an extent.

Not all those who wander are lost


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Aug 2 2014, 10:41pm

Post #20 of 24 (182 views)
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Origin of balrogs [In reply to] Can't Post

Balrogs were originally Maiar, were they not? They seem to have a different nature from Sauron, though. Just as Sauron could no longer assume a fair form after the downfall of Númenor, the balrogs seem "stuck" in their form.

That leads me to conclude that balrogs were (probably lesser) Maiar who made some kind of compromise to take on the form that they had. It's interesting, though, because Melian didn't seem to suffer any consequences for taking physical form. The nature that the balrogs took on themselves must have been fundamentally different than what Melian took on.

TolkienBlog.com


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Aug 3 2014, 12:58am

Post #21 of 24 (164 views)
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I think your right Idril [In reply to] Can't Post

It's stated somewhere (I don't recall, and don't have time to check) that Sauron was of a "higher order" of Maia than Gandalf or the other Wizards. So it seems safe to assume that he was also of a higher order than the balrog.

Sauron was "killed" at the end of the Second Age. Because of his "first life" evil intent I suppose this may be why he could no longer attain a fair form but still had his original powers? Whereas Gandalf' had a 'first life' integrity he was given his new fair White form in his "second life".

And the balrog must have at some point in the beginning chosen evil over good. I don't think he was ever killed and reincarnated?

Cheers

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Aug 3 2014, 2:39am

Post #22 of 24 (169 views)
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From the Silmarillion, on Sauron's demise in Númenor [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.


It's really unclear why he couldn't take up a fair form again. I suppose (although I have nothing to back this up) that a twisted spirit struggles to create and/or maintain a fair form for a long time. Having fallen lower by essentially destroying Númenor, I guess Sauron just didn't have the wherewithal to create a fair form. Maybe he was so far gone that he didn't even know what a fair form would look like?

I was always under the impression that Gandalf did not take up a new form, but rather was given a new one. The implication from this passage is that it takes time for a Maia to create a new form with an old one is destroyed.

TolkienBlog.com


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Aug 3 2014, 5:37pm

Post #23 of 24 (147 views)
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Morgoth could no longer change form either... [In reply to] Can't Post

After the Darkening of Valinor and killing of the Two Trees, Morgoth remained in his form as a Dark Lord. He could never revert to his original angelic form. So if the most powerful Vala and being in the world could no longer change his form, it would appear Sauron, once he reached the depths of Morgoth, was similarly unable to devise his angelic form again.

It is not really clear whether Morgoth chose not to wear an angelic form any longer or because of his inherent evil or he could no longer change because he had loss the power to do so. The same goes with Sauron. Both chose to be evil incarnate, but does that mean that they lose the ability to appear angelic? One would think they still had the power to change their shape, but it is not clear whether they lose the power or choose not to use it.


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Aug 3 2014, 5:49pm

Post #24 of 24 (214 views)
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I was thinking about Morgoth, too [In reply to] Can't Post

I always thought that Morgoth couldn't assume a fair form, not that he chose not to. Then again, weren't there rumors that Morgoth appeared to men when the first awoke and tempted them to their fall? It would be odd for men to be tempted by a creature who looked as evil as Morgoth surely would have.

TolkienBlog.com

 
 

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