|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
NoelGallagher
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 5:55pm
Post #1 of 31
(2093 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thrain: Will we ever see him again ?!
|
Can't Post
|
|
I know PB said that we will see the Thrain-stuff in the EE of DoS. But i'm a bit scared if we probably wont 
Since he has been in nearly all trailers but never saw the light on screen.
Probably PJ decides again that his addition would be to confusing our unneccesary for the plot, since he didnt needed him so far?!
And, if he is inserted into the EE my question is: Where ?!
Actually i dont see how and where and when he should appear at Dol Guldur, since the whole subplot obiously was changed a lot quite lately. While a flashback during the opening sequence is quite in my fantasy, i cant figure out him at Dol Guldur...
What do you think ?!
(This post was edited by NoelGallagher on Jul 30 2014, 5:58pm)
|
|
|
DeadRabbits
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 6:05pm
Post #2 of 31
(1675 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, before the DOS premiere there was this talk of a "flashback within a flashback"...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
... which probably referred to Gandalf's first meeting with Thrain (where he received the key and the map) being inserted during the prologue in Bree. It would be very strange if they decided to cut him altogether considering all the trouble they went through with recasting the role and reshooting the scenes, but you never know. If I remember correctly you can see Thrain acting as Gandalf's guide in Dol Guldur in one of the vlogs (can't remember which one, though...), so I guess that these scenes exist and could be inserted into the EE.
Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought
|
|
|
Shagrat
Gondor
Jul 30 2014, 6:08pm
Post #3 of 31
(1634 views)
Shortcut
|
I honestly expect him to make up about 5 minutes of that 25-26 we've been promised. After all the reassurances that we'll see Thrain - first in the second film, then in the EE - I'd be seriously annoyed if they cut him. Along with Beorn it's the aspect I'm most looking forward to.
Firstly we can surely expect flashbacks during the opening meeting at the Prancing Pony. We should see Thrain during the battle of Azanulbizar, presumably him going mad and venturing after Azog into Moria, seemingly him getting lost in Moria (and even encountering Durin's Bane, exacerbating his madness?), and eventually meeting Gandalf in Moria, at which point he gives him the map and key. This sequence should be at least a minute long I imagine, hopefully longer.
Then later on in the film Gandalf should come across Thrain in Dol Guldur. I'm not sure how this will play out exactly. It might be reworked extensively from the theatrical version. But you certainly don't cast an actor of Antony Sher's calibre for a very tiny part which demands little in the way of serious acting ability.
(This post was edited by Shagrat on Jul 30 2014, 6:10pm)
|
|
|
NoelGallagher
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 6:09pm
Post #4 of 31
(1622 views)
Shortcut
|
But since Gandalf immediately flees after confronting Azog i actually cant imagine how Thrain should fit in there.
|
|
|
FoFo64
Rivendell
Jul 30 2014, 6:31pm
Post #5 of 31
(1583 views)
Shortcut
|
As to how Thrain will fit into the DOS EE. The way Dol Goldur is set up in the theatrical version, it leaves very little room for Thrain's inclusion. The only way I could see it, is if during Gandalf's walk throughout the fortress he finds Thrain locked within a jail cell and has a talk with him before freeing him.
Afterwards, the only way I could see him fitting into the eventual Azog and Sauron confrontation is if he gets slain by a nearby Orc.
'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film
|
|
|
Dcole4
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 7:13pm
Post #6 of 31
(1549 views)
Shortcut
|
|
They will have to re-do some of the effects.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
They are going to re-do some of the effects in that sequence. I think it'll only require a few changes. It's something I've put a lot of thought into, I think the EE version will look something like this:
-Gandalf enters Dol Guldur
-Unseen figure watching/chasing after him (early Comic Con 2012 footage)
-Gandalf is leaped on by Thrain, will calm Thrain enough to confirm that an evil is lurking unseen in the fortress (referenced in Art Chronicles book)
-Gandalf cast his spells with Thrain at his side (this is why I think all of the wide shots are CGI, to remove Thrain)
-Azog attacks, Thrain flees and hides.
-Gandalf and Azog scene where he sees the armies below.
-Gandalf flees, is grabbed by Thrain who leads him through the maze of the fortress.
-SPECULATION: This is where either: 1) Thrain is killed, or 2) once again hides out of Gandalf's view.
-Gandalf is confronted by the Necromancer.
I'm pretty sure this is how it'll look in the finished film, my main curiosity is when/how they'll kill Thrain. I also wonder if there is more footage between the Necromancer confrontation and when we see Gandalf in the cage.
(This post was edited by Dcole4 on Jul 30 2014, 7:15pm)
|
|
|
FoFo64
Rivendell
Jul 30 2014, 7:21pm
Post #7 of 31
(1516 views)
Shortcut
|
Yeah, your analysis seems very possible. But in the end it boils down to the same conclusion. Thrain will have to die in this scene. I find it hard to believe he'll be able to hide away from Sauron long enough to survive after Gandalf gets caught. Also another huge question is, if Thrain is present, what does that mean for the upcoming BOFA? How will they consolidate the inclusion of Thrain in the EE and the theatrical version of BOFA. Will he omit to Thorin the discovery of his long lost father? Is that not information that will be important to Thorin's character arc?
'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film
|
|
|
Dcole4
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 7:27pm
Post #8 of 31
(1503 views)
Shortcut
|
I feel like they may kill Thrain during the Sauron confrontation, also explaining why a lot of those medium-wide shots of Ian McKellen are CGI (the one's where he's standing, obviously not the big stunt ones which are understandable). There is also a telling CGI shot of Gandalf running and turning a corner to see the necromancer cloud. This adds weight to the fact that it's likely Thrain was meant to be with Gandalf during this sequence. Making it a far more emotional scene when Gandalf fails to protect him against Sauron's wrath.
The Sauron theme on the soundtrack goes for a bit longer than in the film. Could be the result of a few cut shots of Thrain being killed by the force of the attack. But that is pure speculation.
|
|
|
joec_34
Rivendell
Jul 30 2014, 7:29pm
Post #9 of 31
(1504 views)
Shortcut
|
Gandalf may not really have the time to tell Thorin about his encounter with Thrain. Gandalf might be preoccupied by the war, then lets Thorin reconcile with Bilbo when he's on his deathbed. Not a whole lot of time to chat about other things.
"Happy painting and God bless, my friend." - Bob Ross
|
|
|
Guert
Rivendell
Jul 30 2014, 7:34pm
Post #10 of 31
(1494 views)
Shortcut
|
This would work fine with me
I hope they won't cut it out completely. I mean... They could well say that Thrain giving the map and key to Gandalf for safe keeping a long time ago is enough to understand why he had them. No need for Thrain in Dol Guldur at all. Gandalf is a wizard and trustworthy of many, it seems only logical that a Dwarven King would trust him with these precious artifacts "for safe keeping" even if he's not on his death bed
(This post was edited by Guert on Jul 30 2014, 7:35pm)
|
|
|
FoFo64
Rivendell
Jul 30 2014, 7:49pm
Post #12 of 31
(1460 views)
Shortcut
|
Whatever the case may be...I'm still left with a lot of questions regarding how it'll finally turn out. I guess all that can be done is wait and see. I do find it odd for Gandalf to just straight up not tell Thorin about Thrain...especially after that prologue in Bree.
It is true that he'll have precious little time, but still...maybe they could have Bilbo overhear Gandalf telling Elrond about Thrain's appearence, much like in the novel Bilbo hears him talk about the Necromancer etc. I wonder how the dwarven company would react to hearing about thrain's survival after Thorin's death as well...
'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film
(This post was edited by FoFo64 on Jul 30 2014, 7:50pm)
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 30 2014, 8:36pm
Post #13 of 31
(1438 views)
Shortcut
|
|
But Thrain went to see Gandalf, according to DOS. Gandalf didn't find him.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It would seem odd for him to visit Gandalf before he went missing, then for Gandalf to find him again in Moria, and then again in Dol Guldur.
Surely the Moria bit is unnecessary?
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 30 2014, 8:43pm
Post #14 of 31
(1419 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well Gandalf doesn't tell Thorin about Thrain for quite a while
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In the book, either. Maybe he's just not a sharer.
|
|
|
FoFo64
Rivendell
Jul 30 2014, 8:50pm
Post #15 of 31
(1419 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yeah that line seemed confusing to me at first.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But then I thought about it and I realized what Gandalf meant. I think he meant that Thrain visited him before the Dwarves tried to retake Moria.
Thrain later became mad during the Battle of Azanulbizar and fled into the wilderness, to be eventually caught by Dol Goldur Orcs, presumably.
'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film
(This post was edited by FoFo64 on Jul 30 2014, 8:51pm)
|
|
|
Shagrat
Gondor
Jul 30 2014, 8:57pm
Post #16 of 31
(1410 views)
Shortcut
|
There were tie-in books that came out around the time of AUJ that said Thrain was lost in Moria. The flashback will begin with the battle, so it makes sense for the two to be linked.
Unless we posit that Thrain gave Gandalf the map and key before the battle.
(This post was edited by Shagrat on Jul 30 2014, 8:57pm)
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 30 2014, 9:34pm
Post #17 of 31
(1383 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The only clues from the films themselves are
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In AUJ that the key was "given" to Gandalf by Thrain "for safekeeping" and in DOS that Thrain "came to see you before he went missing".
I'm not sure that tie-in books hold much sway, but even if they do, then the only way to make sense of the quotes is that Thrain did indeed go to see Gandalf before the battle.
So Moria isn't necessary!
|
|
|
Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 9:54pm
Post #18 of 31
(1374 views)
Shortcut
|
The encounter with Thrain in that very first trailer was a perfect example of how the films could be given depth through placing the back story and Gandalfs other business into the films narrative.
So to have this excluded in each of the films theatrical versions was a big disappoint probably the biggest one for me. However given the re inclusion of Gandalfs remarks at the White Council about the ring and Thrain I am wondering if Thrains arc will only appear in the EE's of all three films.
Through your detective work i have now seen that additional weta footage which places Thrain running over the bridge before Gandalf subsequently destroys it. This sequence is probably connected to the vlog section with Gandalf being led by Thrain.
I believe you are right Gandalf meets Thrain first. There is an altercation, after which Thrain becomes lucid and the pick up dialogue occurs referring to Thrains concerns about Thorin. Then Azog emerges Gandalf and Thrain disappear and in that furious chase sequence Thrain helps Gandalf. Thrain may die when Sauron overcomes Gandalf or be overlooked by Sauron and some how help Gandalf in the the third film but that would seem less likely as he would need introducing to the T E audience.
In the third film's EE Gandalf may have an opportunity to have a quiet moment with Thorin to explain he meets his father and offer words of comfort before Thorin completes his arc.
Fascinating to see torturer Bolg (Conan Stephens)in the Weta video against whom Gandalf was meant to have a stand off. Bolgs role has gone through three phases.
Torturer Bolg CS who has a stand off with G.
Bolg (LM) at Dol Gulder whilst Azog pursues the company to the Eleven kings Halls.
Bolg the movie version.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 30 2014, 9:55pm)
|
|
|
Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 10:09pm
Post #19 of 31
(1349 views)
Shortcut
|
From the prologue dialogue I took that G had seen Thrain recently but I think that assumption was wrong.
There are two parts of the narrative that are crucial to completing the story.
1) The handing over of the map and the key for safe keeping which i am sure will be reintroduced in to the prologue.
2) What happened to Thrain at Moria where he was lost.
Given Gandalf urged Thrain to retake Erebor in the past that hardly seems like a discussion point if they met in the middle of battle within Moria. I am going with those two elements being separate. Moria maybe flashbacked to Gandalf by a momentarily lucid Thrain at D G. It would help remind the audience who he was. G How cameth you here T Captured at Moria.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
|
|
|
lurtz2010
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 10:16pm
Post #20 of 31
(1368 views)
Shortcut
|
when they're on the overlook looking at Dale it cuts to Gandalf first entering Dol Guldur then it cuts back to Dwalin putting his sword in the ground when they're looking for the secret door but
surely there's a scene where they actually go through Dale before that. Maybe there's another Gandalf scene added somewhere during Dale?
This might not mean much but when Bilbo walks down into Erebor it's nighttime but when it goes back to Gandalf in Dol Guldur you can see daylight on the horizon. Could that scene be added abit earlier in the EE?
|
|
|
Dcole4
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 10:41pm
Post #21 of 31
(1349 views)
Shortcut
|
There is definitely going to be some intercutting between Dol Guldur and the added Dale scene. I'm super excited for this cut of the movie.
In regards to the prologue, it is tricky to think of how they'll show Thrain in the Moria battle and Thrain meeting Gandalf. We only have the briefest mention of it from Boyens who said it was shot, and that the context had changed from the books, but provided no new info. I guess it'll be one of the fun surprises when we get to watch it. Or one of the nasty surprises if it doesn't make it into the EE.
|
|
|
NoelGallagher
Rohan
Jul 31 2014, 8:16am
Post #22 of 31
(1245 views)
Shortcut
|
The encounter with Thrain in that very first trailer was a perfect example of how the films could be given depth through placing the back story and Gandalfs other business into the films narrative.
So to have this excluded in each of the films theatrical versions was a big disappoint probably the biggest one for me. However given the re inclusion of Gandalfs remarks at the White Council about the ring and Thrain I am wondering if Thrains arc will only appear in the EE's of all three films.
Through your detective work i have now seen that additional weta footage which places Thrain running over the bridge before Gandalf subsequently destroys it. This sequence is probably connected to the vlog section with Gandalf being led by Thrain.
I believe you are right Gandalf meets Thrain first. There is an altercation, after which Thrain becomes lucid and the pick up dialogue occurs referring to Thrains concerns about Thorin. Then Azog emerges Gandalf and Thrain disappear and in that furious chase sequence Thrain helps Gandalf. Thrain may die when Sauron overcomes Gandalf or be overlooked by Sauron and some how help Gandalf in the the third film but that would seem less likely as he would need introducing to the T E audience.
In the third film's EE Gandalf may have an opportunity to have a quiet moment with Thorin to explain he meets his father and offer words of comfort before Thorin completes his arc.
Fascinating to see torturer Bolg (Conan Stephens)in the Weta video against whom Gandalf was meant to have a stand off. Bolgs role has gone through three phases.
Torturer Bolg CS who has a stand off with G.
Bolg (LM) at Dol Gulder whilst Azog pursues the company to the Eleven kings Halls.
Bolg the movie version.
"Through your detective work i have now seen that additional weta footage which places Thrain running over the bridge before Gandalf subsequently destroys it."
?
|
|
|
TheFlayedMan
Rivendell
Jul 31 2014, 11:05am
Post #23 of 31
(1207 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm wondering about this too...
I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.
|
|
|
Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jul 31 2014, 11:53am
Post #24 of 31
(1192 views)
Shortcut
|
Conan's Bolg is after the Beorn piece. To pick up Thrain running across the bridge you have to halt the video and go very very slowly.
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/moviesnow/la-et-mn-hobbit-smaug-visual-effects-20140213-premiumvideo.html
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
|
|
|
Arannir
Valinor
Jul 31 2014, 11:58am
Post #25 of 31
(1186 views)
Shortcut
|
Seems the day I see a lot of footage that confirms me in my support for CGI Orcs... Azog in that scene with Gandalf at Dol Guldur looked really bad in the costume, imho.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
|
|
|
|
|
1
