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Children of Hurin Chapter Discussion: The Death of Turin
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 4:03pm

Post #26 of 39 (2030 views)
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choices and fate - still confused [In reply to] Can't Post

Were the CoH meant to double-suicide? Or were they meant not to and some solution would have come along eucatrostrophically?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60, and I turn 50 (and old enough for Going On An Adventure: who's that fellow in the grey hat scratching at my door?)
(the following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


squire
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 5:31pm

Post #27 of 39 (2031 views)
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Which reminds me... [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo: I'm sure I don't know why Elrond has seated me at this table. Such great Men are here, with hard eyes and noble faces. Hmm. And an appalling variety of scars.

Turin: The less you ask an Elf Lord to explain his actions, the less you may expect to be misled, young lordling.

Frodo: I beg your pardon, sir. I am Frodo, son of Drogo, Halfling of the Shire and master of Bag End, Hobbiton. I am a friend of Gandalf.

Turin: I am called the Betrayed One, the Bitter Victim, the Grim Sap, the Dismal Drip, the Heartless Outlaw, the Clueless Lover, the Unfaithful Son, The Master of Fate (meaning Victim of Fate - no, I can't explain it either), the Slayer of Dragons and Assaulter of Sisters. I am Sinned Against, Sinner, and Suicide, Turin for short. Ask for my aid and you shall have it, little one - but you shall regret it for the rest of your suddenly foreshortened life.

Frodo: Ah, I am honored, great Lord Turin. Your name, and exploits, are legend even in my untaught land. You are an Elf Friend and a Hero of the Edain of the Elder Days. I am your servant, and your family's.

Turin: Everyone in my family is dead, thanks to me.

Frodo. Yes. Well, Elrond has honored me beyond my worth to seat me in your company.

Turin: Elrond. Our host tonight, I believe. An Elf Lord?

Frodo: He is Halfelven, the scion of Earendel the Mariner and Idril the Fair. He is great among Elves and the Men of the Heroic North.

Turin: Halfelven, so only Half False, I judge! With little joy do I drink of his wine tonight and eat of his meat, whose race so arrogantly tramples on the pride and valour of Men for their own glory and gain! Elves: the very word sickens me now. Half my bitter life I fought and bled to preserve their kingdoms and their blessed heritage, watching my comrades fall in endless rows to the Dark Lord's assaults. Are our lives not shortened enough, we Men, that we must rush forward to embrace an even earlier death for the sake of some bad verse and worse hair?

Frodo: Death? Is that the bargain I just made at the Council? Is there no hope, then?

Turin: Did this Elrond call you Elf Friend? Among the Great? Hero?

Frodo: I have been called these things, even before this day, actually. A mortal who is an Elf Friend has a light in his eye, my cousin Bilbo told me, that no dark night can quench. A song in his heart, than no cold rain can silence.

Turin: Ha ha. Ha.

Frodo: Your laughter lacks mirth, my lord.

Turin: Death is only part of what you are soon to suffer - Elf Friend. Before your life is broken by Morgoth's thralls, your heart will be too. Your people will die before your eyes, and your dreams will become waking nightmares, Elf Friend.

Frodo: How terrifying!

Turin: While they gather their goods at leisure, and amble to the Havens. A fair wind and a bright dawn, revealing white shores for them and their kin, while you and yours suffer, fall, and die in prolonged agony back here in Middle-earth. Elf Friend, eh? Welcome to our Fellowship, little one, and may your Elf Friendship end with as little blood shed and despair as possible. I recommend you keep your sword sharpened, you will find yourself clasping it to your breast rather than living one moment longer, as an Elf Friend. This I know.

Frodo: Bilbo never spoke of this.

Turin: He's your kin? An Elf Friend, you said? You'd better go kill him too.

Frodo: Yes. Yes, perhaps I will. Here, my lord, take this Ring as token of my thanks for opening my eyes.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 9:16pm

Post #28 of 39 (2013 views)
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Picturing you surrounded by nieces and nephews Rem... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I have the nieces and nephews (4 of them) at my house...Be vewy, vewy, careful Rem - you are outnumbered. Shocked

Well, with all that slime and filth building up on a dragon (I doubt he bathed, or even could bathe) I'd imagine it was a fairly noxious smell of decay and other things I don't care to think of. It might have been a useful dragon-slayer repellent. All this makes me think.... with all that wonderfully smelly stuff, how did Smaug smell anything else besides his own stench? with a nose that keen, how could he not!?Crazy I suppose they find it intoxicating! A unique alley of inquiry. A dark, dirty, fetid alley that is. Laugh

Well, if we see Turin's defeat of Glaurung as his intended fate, then we could say that Turin 'won', in that sense. I don't know, but maybe Morgoth had a bit of foresight and he saw the potential in Hurin's family, so he tried to destroy it. Why else take the time to manipulate their lives? I can't see this Evil Overlord taking notice of one small family, to the neglect of the broader view of the war. Maybe this is where Morgoth has Sauron beat; he took notice of the details that led to Sauron's fall? I think that this is a bit of evil business, combined with Morgoth's sadistic pleasure. So maybe Glaurung knew Turin was his bane, thus his motivated interference with the CoH, and he is admitting failure in his personal war with them? Or is he trying to torment him by saying 'You won, but look at the cost.' Great points to raise in the overall thematic of Turin and how he fits in the world of Middle-earth, versus a strictly free standing interpretation of JRRT taking Wagnerian and Finnish legends and weaving them into his own words. If you look at your excellent point of the Evil Overlord rather foolishly concentrating on one family, it is either exposing Evil as the arrogance of ignoring the forest for the trees or potentially revealing JRRT's philosophical point of unintended good arising from evil? (which ultimately underscores the essential good of the Sentient Creator-made universe).

Policy-wise, Morgoth did take notice of the small, in that sense, versus Sauron who tended to ignore the small (thus ensuring the success of Frodo.) Since both are defeated though - what's the unifying theme do you think? Are we back to the inevitable defeat of Evil due to the essential Good of the universe?


I never thought of that, but who would really think that Turin could defeat the dragon? I see him, a gaunt, pale figure coming from the mist, and the people unsure of who he is, or if he is really alive. (A ghost!) In truth, it seems impossible! Even as I read it years ago in I-Love-The-Fables mode, it never seemed very possible and I was very surprised that he succeeded! (A brief foray to film...when we get the shot of Smaug climbing over the Company on the walkway in Erebor, that's exactly what popped into my head: can you imagine trying to kill that with a sword? Soft belly or no. Yikes.) But in that sense a very Frodo-type of heroism in a mortal being able to achieve the seemingly impossible with their own smallness as their advantage. Hmmm. An Everyman conceit?

Well, Gurthang is an interesting study. It seems sad for Beleg, but kills Turin. It appears to not have any instinct of self-preservation the Ring has (Not leaving until it has a new master), so maybe it is a psychopathic killer? Maybe it senses Turin has no self-control, so it reasons that he cannot control it, thus it rejects Turin as its master? I also like to ponder the angle that teh sword learned 'good' from Beleg, and maybe, as it was employed in doing good, it tried to rehabilitate. So many things to ponder, but I haven't the time. Psychopathic - well, as it is inhuman, I don't know if that could apply - in the negative sense. Does it have a soul? Maybe it does! In any case, I almost feel like the burden lies with Eol here, if it was forged as such an implacable killing machine. Gurthang follows his destiny; and if he does someday rise with Turin to smite Morgoth - an odd and fey friendship, to say the least!


The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 9:18pm

Post #29 of 39 (2004 views)
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Using the R and J strategem [In reply to] Can't Post

Though he was not a huge Bard fan, it is interesting to me that JRRT did use the unconscious-switcheroo move to pivot the drama on!








Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 9:23pm

Post #30 of 39 (2005 views)
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I love this Furincurunir [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It struck me today that both CoH and LOTR could be seen as being stories about choices. LOTR seems a lot more positive: the admirable characters tend to make the right choices: they either live to see these bear fruit, or at least (Théoden) die satisfied they did the right thing. Denethor is the meaningful exception (Boromir falls into either camp: makes wrong decision, dies making amends). Plenty of characters make decisions that don't work out as they expected, but these tend to fit into a broader, beneficial pattern.

In CoH, it's more negative: people make decisions which mostly backfire, and if there is a broader pattern it's harder to see it as a beneficial one.

Various theories:
CoH is true to its gloomy Norse mythic models : LOTR is true to its author's optimism.

A biographical theory: young Mr. Tolkien, just recently back from the war and the only survivor of his group of friends begins work on Turin. A young man surviving for a time against stacked odds, but doomed whatever he does might be an understandable theme.

Or, of course; all of them at once, or something else entirely!


Excellent delineation, and I agree on the time mode and the works reflecting the mind and life stages of the author.
I could even add to it the rather Biblical air of the Sil - in the early Biblical tales, there are many, many bad decisions made that have grim repurcussions for many (in the case of Adam and Eve, all of mankind.) The early mind of the writer still dreaming of that mythos for England?








Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 9:30pm

Post #31 of 39 (2002 views)
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Kalevala derivation [In reply to] Can't Post


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Do you think the sword literally talks (eg if Dorlas were still lurking around, he'd hear these lines) or dies it "talk" because we're seeing Turin's state of mind?

I think it's left to the reader, & it wouldn't be a very interesting distinction, perhaps, but for that bit about Beleg: it is contradictory, and maybe this suggests Turin's guilt-overloaded mind at work?





A fascinating idea - it would explain the Beleg bit, certainly. What holds me back from muting Gurthang is that Ukko's blade speaks to Kullervo of his eagerness to take Kullervo's life. With that influence in place, I may come down more on the side of JRRT seeing the sentient blade actually speaking (even in one's mind?) The mind-speaking telepathy in itself would mean that no, no one else would 'hear' the blade. Which is an interesting dynamic in itself, as it can never bear witness, refute or defend anyone effectively. It is always simply a plus-1 universe: itself and its bearer.


I suppose that could make one a bit odd!








Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 9:35pm

Post #32 of 39 (1997 views)
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Hail and well met Ardamire! [In reply to] Can't Post


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This is positively one of my most favorite passages in Tolkien's writings. The reunion (long hoped for) of Morwen and Hurin is so gut-wrenchingly sad. In some ways, it almost makes me wish that they didn't have to endure the emotions that came with the reunion, especially Hurin who lives on, unlike Morwen. I'm not sure which would be worse: knowing the last time they met was when they were young and full of life, or at the end of it when they have endured so much tragedy.

In regards to Hurin not answering Morwen, I really don't know what to think. Obviously, I think it's incredibly strong and noble of him to keep it all from her. At the same time, I don't think he says anything else to her. (I don't have my book with me to check.) I find that to be a little bit cruel.

I know I said above that I love this passage, but I also don't think it should have been included here. It's not actually a part of this story, and Tolkien finishes the proper story so wonderfully that to tack this on the end seems unfortunate. It's not a big deal, though, just a little niggle.

Latching onto your UUT, we don't actually know that Nienor dies. Perhaps she survived, was adopted by a little family a dwarves and eventually awakened by True Love's first kiss??




Glad to see you around! Cool
I was hoping you would pop in here, as I know how much you do like this part. Touching, sad, and I think elegantly under-written. Nothing overdone here, as JRRT objected to in other mythos. The silence of their last moments together speak so many volumes, a proud pair of wounded mortals.
Do you see Hurin as being the more injured, having seen it all, or Morwen, who seems to feel it so viscerally but who maybe has merciful ignorance in this case?


(*and True Love's First Kiss by a Dwarf is no joking matter.*)Sly








Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 9:53pm

Post #33 of 39 (1994 views)
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Holy Exponential Horseman, Batman [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's almost clumsy, or in-your-face, or Tolkien to have Turin angrily call Brandir "Club-foot" at this point. How much are we supposed to think of Sador? If Sador had played a greater influence on Turin, or if his influence had been less fleeting, would Turin have come to this point of pitiless murder? This is the same Turin who was described as inclined to pity as a boy.

There is the Oedipal idea that to grow up, a son must "kill" his father, either literally or figuratively, to become his own man. With Hurin as absentee father, was Turin killing the next closest candidate--Sador/Brandir? As with Finduilas, I'm not sure how much to read into this, but the connection is so obvious, I'm sure JRR was telling us to figure something out.
Great connection here CG. I think there MUST be a point, with Sador and Brandir both being the lame counselor, at different stages in Turin's life. But to very different effect! Were they that different, or was Turin just a different person when he interacted with them?



In the last chapter, when Brandir killed Dorlas, I felt rather neutral in their quick fight. Here I have a stronger sense of pity for Brandir: not necessarily likeable, but he's lost his throne and social status, lost Niniel, and seems all alone and ridiculed in the world. To have Turin finish him off feels wrong, especially since it's clearly not a fair fight.
The wife of Dorlas "shrilly" speaks out against Brandir and seems to seal his fate with Turin. It could have been anyone, but since she's connected to Dorlas, whom Brandir has just killed, is this justice and fate at work? Though it's not clear to me if Dorlas would have killed Brandir or just punched him. I tend to think that Dorlas was crazy enough to kill him, since they've all gone mad, but it's hard to be sure. If Brandir was striking out in self-defense, then again he seems wronged. To back up a little, he was the one who healed both Turin and Nienor in spite of his misgivings. He's not as thoroughly decent as Mablung, Beleg, and Sador, but he still comes off as one of the more moral people in the story. It says something that Gurthang cites his death in particular in saying he'll kill Turin.
This whole passage both reeks of the madness of the crowd, as well as JRRT's sort of shifting-looking-glass towards each of the characters. Unlike what we see in LOTR, where a character's 'alignment' (pardon the D and D slang) is a relative constant (excepting perhaps Gollum) in this part of CoH our perceptions of everyone seem to shift as they move through the events. In one moment Brandir feels a bit vengeful and sour-grapes, such as when he disowns his people. But then, he feels wronged in the unfair fight ( that he faces with dignity).
Is there any other place in Middle-earth where we get this sense? Not sure if I can think of any.

Finduilas: there aren't any coincidences in this story, are there? Cry out to her, and the Twelve show up. But I'm not clear on the reference, since there's Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, not 12, or maybe there's more than one version? There are 12 Apostles. Now that makes one wonder if this is an allusion to them, and Turin is Judas the betrayer (I don't think of him as a Christ figure). Maybe 12 is just 12, or maybe there's more, just as I think Finduilas looms over the story in an ethereal, elusive way. Yes, well, my dozen Apocalyptic Horsemen is a bit over the top, I will grant that!Laugh It just kept popping into my head whenever I read that section for some reason. Perhaps it is the unconscious link between the Hunters and the Apostolic number? An excellent connect.

I think in regards to Findulias, Judas *could* be a case applied, if we count the treasure as something other than 'silver' - yet it can be likened to 'earthly' treasure versus the spiritual I think; if he makes a choice to pursue his 'earthly' family of mortals over saving the immortal Elf-love, is that the comparison?

I will be perhaps the lone hold-out here and say that I do see a case for a (loose) Christ-type metaphor here; one with feet of clay (oh dear me, yes) but through his suffering (granted, some self-imposed. OK, a lot of it self-imposed) the hope of Men and Elves will have the safety of the Hidden City to be born in. And I also note, in this metaphor thatunlike Christ, there is almost no conscious will of Turin to do good or sacrifice himself - until close to the end, when it seems he has an epiphany before hunting Glaurung. So loose at best, but in that sense I do see some happiness in the tale; especially if Turin will avenge mankind at the Last Battle.









Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 9:58pm

Post #34 of 39 (1992 views)
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Agreed - and I will ask you too [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I really like this passage too! Probably the most beautiful (though painful) part of the story.


Quote
‘You come at last,’ she said . ‘I have waited too long.’
‘It was a dark road. I have come as I could,’ he answered .
‘But you are late,’ she said, ‘too late. They are lost.’
‘I know,’ he said. ‘But you are not.’
‘Almost,’ she said. ‘I am spent utterly. I shall go with the sun. They are lost.’ She clutched at his cloak. ‘Little time is left,’ she said . ‘If you know , tell me! How did she find him?’
But Húrin did not answer, and he sat beside the stone with Morwen in his arms; and they did not speak again . The sun went down, and Morwen sighed and clasped his hand and was still; and Húrin knew that she had died.

Morwen can't seem to die without getting off a bitter rebuke to Hurin, even though it's her fault Nienor wound up dead. But I feel sorry for her anyway, and the grief here is overwhelming. What parent could bear to see this end?

I think it's an act of mercy that Hurin doesn't tell her what happened, especially knowing that she was about to die. Maybe if they had years left to live, he should have told her, but he was trying to ease her passing, and what good what it have done her to know? Even though if I were Morwen, I would want to know. How could someone not want to know? It's just a tough situation.

Otherwise, I think their silence while Morwen fades away is because neither knows what to say after such a long, bitter parting and a bitter end, and this silent embrace is the most intimacy they can have at this point.




...the question I asked Ardamire upthread - which one suffered more: the one who knows all that happened, or the one who doesn't?


Tough situation indeed - untenable for parents. Unsure A very, very real feeling bit of 'fantasy' here, in that sense. JFK and Francis Bacon both essentially said, "Having children is like giving hostages to fate." Can't think of a better quote to apply here.








(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 29 2014, 9:59pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 10:03pm

Post #35 of 39 (1990 views)
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Thanks so much CG! [In reply to] Can't Post

A pleasure to share JRRT with everyone here. It truly is. I can offer everyone a bit of a sorry-for-being-a-bit MIA in the last few months, but its not for lack of enjoying the Company!


Thanks back to everyone who reads along, and those who share their thoughts here in the Reading Room. Cool








Khim
Bree


Jul 29 2014, 10:19pm

Post #36 of 39 (1991 views)
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50 [In reply to] Can't Post

I recently turned fifty, too. Sigh. My beard has gone very gray, I tell folks I simply comb a little gray in every day, makes me look distinguished.

I only briefly scanned these posts, forgive me if someone covered this, but questions regarding the nature and purpose of this tale should not stray too far from Tolkien's source material. No time to verify my facts but wasn't Turin's tragedy clearly lifted from the Kalevala? Unlike LOTR this tale is more a retelling of an ancient tale that the author favored, so some of it's darker and sader bits can be laid at the door of his predecessors.

Fare well fellow readers!

I am Khim akin to Mim.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jul 29 2014, 11:24pm

Post #37 of 39 (1994 views)
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Oh, I have 5 siblings and my two parents... [In reply to] Can't Post

So we outnumber them. Ho ho ho....Evil

Well, I think the unifying theme would have to be the prideful inability of Evil to understand Good. For Morgoth he could not fathom the possibility that he was not the greatest, nor could he even understand or anticipate the way in which he fell. Among the Valar in his imprisonment, I'm sure he thought them all fools, and plotted away to his heart's content-- never understanding the reason he was there and the merciful hope they held for his cure. Sauron could not even fathom the possibility that the Free Peoples would want to destroy the Ring.If I had to bring out a question on this point, I wonder why Eru interfered in Sauron's case, but not in Morgoth's-- the ostensibly greater danger.

About the foolish hope for Turin's success, I am thinking that the people of Brethil would have seen Turin's abilities shrouded. They had no knowledge of his exploits and heroism. So one of their neighbors (Their militia leader, I'll admit) volunteers to slay a dragon... Think about your neighbors doing that!!

That sword is perhaps one of the most complicated pieces in this tale. Very well might one of my friends suggest that it be studied as a separate character, like the Curse.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 30 2014, 7:33am

Post #38 of 39 (1992 views)
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A very important point! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but questions regarding the nature and purpose of this tale should not stray too far from Tolkien's source material. No time to verify my facts but wasn't Turin's tragedy clearly lifted from the Kalevala? Unlike LOTR this tale is more a retelling of an ancient tale that the author favored, so some of it's darker and sader bits can be laid at the door of his predecessors.


That's very true: not only did Tolkien write LOTR and CoH material at different stages of his life and growth as a writer, but, by choosing to adopt another story as a model he may have chosen certain events, motifs or feels, and then have been unwilling to let those go. These things might vary the usual "rules" or feel of Middle-earth. (Similarly perhaps, the Beren and Luthien tale has odd features: e.g. Shape-shifting and singing sorcerers, that don't occur elsewhere. Back in the last Sil Read through it was suggested that these were Celtic elements, not adopted in the other tales).

I read the suggestion (one of Prof Shippey's books, I think) that this was one reason that Tolkien could not complete the Sil. : that his big set pieces were each quite defined and settled in their feel and details, and this meant he could no longer harmonise them into one consistent work without changing them in ways he couldn't bear.

PS: not quite hit 50 yet: 19 September :).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 30 2014, 11:00pm

Post #39 of 39 (2010 views)
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Who suffers more? [In reply to] Can't Post



Quote
...the question I asked Ardamire upthread - which one suffered more: the one who knows all that happened, or the one who doesn't?

I'd say they both suffer equally, though in different ways. Hurin had the burden of knowing all the happened, while Morwen was saddled with tortured imaginings to fill in the blanks.

Even physically, they were both in rough shape: Morwen having lived as a mindless animal for many months, while Hurin as Morgoth's prisoner.

They not only had to deal with the loss of their children but the knowledge that they had lost each other and couldn't get anything back, since Morwen was on the door of death. I wouldn't have anything to say in that situation either.

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