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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Two wildcard characters

Sharkey
The Shire


Jul 29 2014, 8:58pm

Post #1 of 18 (958 views)
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Two wildcard characters Can't Post

Saruman- will his "devices" save the day at Dol Guldur? or will his many colors show? If Sir Christopher's holiday message is to be believed, there will be tremendous amounts of swordplay, magic, sympathy w/ Gandy and Galadriel, etc. Who knows!

The Master- I didn't expect one, but there was not a single shot of Mr. Fry in the trailer. Perhaps him and his statue will be caught in Smaug's path? Will he live to flee Laktown in a skiff w/ Alfrid? Gollum finds him escaping in the marshes?


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 29 2014, 9:04pm

Post #2 of 18 (662 views)
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I think we can add... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Elrond - what will his contribution be?

... Radagast - dying? Going back to nature?

... Tauriel - sailing West? Dying?

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Jul 29 2014, 9:30pm

Post #3 of 18 (628 views)
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Gollum and the Master [In reply to] Can't Post

It's funny how this stupid "Gollum finds and kills the Master" theory of mine kept surviving all the time since I came up with it during one of the many Gollum Cameo discussions.

The thing with Sir Christopher Lee is... before Return of the King was released he also thought that he was going to be in it since he shot several different death scenes. When ROTK came out in cinemas he was very sad and a little disappointed that Jackson cut Saruman out of the theatrical edition although he was the archenemy of the Fellowship in the previous two movies. Yes, his army was defeated and his fortress was destroyed but what happened to him? We had to wait almost a year to learn if he was able to escape (like in the book) or if he would die in Isengard (as he finally did). The point is... although those scenes of Saruman were shot we don't know yet if it's in the movie or not. Remember the famous Thrain vs. Gandalf scene which was in almost every trailer. Never seen yet on screen. What if Jackson and his team decided to give only Galadriel credit for driving out Sauron? Do we know for sure that Saruman and Elrond will still be in Dol Guldur? No.


Other wildcards:

Thrain: Will he even be in there since he was "promised" since day one and never appeared since. Are we going to see how Gandalf gets key and map? Will he still fight Gandalf in Dol Guldur? Will he die? Who is going to kill him then? He was mentioned several times in AUJ and DOS but except for his short appearance in the AUJ prologue there was nothing of him.

Dain: To be sure... since his backstory was changed so heavy and except for one mention of his name I have no idea what his role will be. Are we going to meet him in the Iron Hills as discussed during the chariot race to Dain discussion or is he going to play the Gandalf who saves the day in the last minute before evils wins? And will he at least kill Azog now (as in the book) or Bolg and become king of Erebor? Will he even die instead of one of the two younger Dwarves? To be honest... I have no idea what to expect.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jul 29 2014, 10:12pm

Post #4 of 18 (565 views)
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I'm very curious as to what they are going to do with Dain... [In reply to] Can't Post

Billy Connelly made mention a while back that his role amounted to a "cameo", and that he only had about 4 or 5 lines. And now PJ has made mention that there won't be any major new character introductions in the next film. So I'm beginning to think it's quite possible that Dain will end up having an extremely minor role. I'd be extremely annoyed if Dain, the eventual King under the Mountain, only got a "cameo" considering the fact that Azog, Tauriel, and Legolas have been given major roles.

Regarding Saruman and Elrond in Dol Guldur, I think it's about 99% sure we will see the both of them taking part. I don't think PJ would do that to Sir Christopher Lee twice, and now considering Lee's age, I'd bet PJ makes sure he does everything in his power to allow Lee to see his scenes. I can't imagine he wouldn't.

Thrain, at this point I'm not even expecting him anymore.


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Jul 29 2014, 11:03pm

Post #5 of 18 (528 views)
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admittedly the focus of PJ's Hobbit is different from the book interpretation. [In reply to] Can't Post

So whether he focuses on Dain or not remains to be seen.

http://www.amagpiesnest.com/a/torn/fotr25.jpg


Bladerunner
Gondor


Jul 29 2014, 11:34pm

Post #6 of 18 (525 views)
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I'm curious... [In reply to] Can't Post

...to see what the Master's comeuppance will be in the film.
Will he drown? - be incinerated by Smaug?, be betrayed by Alfrid during their "every man for himself, I'm the captain but will be the first to abandon ship" escape?
(There is a scene in one of the v-logs that shows Alfrid catching his breath while running with a group of Lake-towners on land).

I can't wait to see Saruman in battle (as well as Galadriel and Elrond).
I imagine him displaying power even more stunning that what Gandalf did in the Goblin tunnels.
And I look forward to comparing Elrond's swordplay with Thranduil's.

And as for Gollum vs the Master - the Master is far too large and Gollum much too small, and besides, the Master's demise will likely be a much more poetic, and perhaps ironic, affair.


Macfeast
Rohan


Jul 29 2014, 11:51pm

Post #7 of 18 (508 views)
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I had not heard the cameo-comment before. [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems very strange, if you ask me. For a shorter adaptation, sure, it would make sense... but for a three-movie adaptation, that has basically made it a habit to expand on everything and everyone, it really seems strange to me to not give Dáin the expansion-treatment. The way I see it, there is just as much storytelling potential in him, as there is in many other characters that are being expanded upon... and a lot could be told, not only about Dáin, but about Thorin, and the dwarves as a whole, simply by answering the question "why wouldn't Dáin join the quest?".


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jul 29 2014, 11:53pm)


HiddenSpring
Lorien

Jul 30 2014, 12:28am

Post #8 of 18 (489 views)
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Elrond and Saruman have been confirmed [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a 100% certainty they're in the film. They're listed in the official poster (once that happens, there's no going back).

Ian Holm has also been confirmed. No Elijah Wood and Andy Serkis, though.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jul 30 2014, 7:54am

Post #9 of 18 (419 views)
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Connolly is also confirmed in the updated synopis on the official movie site... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
SYNOPSIS

From Academy Award®-winning filmmaker Peter Jackson comes “The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies,” the third in a trilogy of films adapting the enduringly popular masterpiece The Hobbit, by J.R.R. Tolkien

“The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies” brings to an epic conclusion the adventures of Bilbo Baggins, Thorin Oakenshield and the Company of Dwarves. Having reclaimed their homeland from the Dragon Smaug, the Company has unwittingly unleashed a deadly force into the world. Enraged, Smaug rains his fiery wrath down upon the defenseless men, women and children of Lake-town.

Obsessed above all else with his reclaimed treasure, Thorin sacrifices friendship and honor to hoard it as Bilbo’s frantic attempts to make him see reason drive the Hobbit towards a desperate and dangerous choice. But there are even greater dangers ahead. Unseen by any but the Wizard Gandalf, the great enemy Sauron has sent forth legions of Orcs in a stealth attack upon the Lonely Mountain.

As darkness converges on their escalating conflict, the races of Dwarves, Elves and Men must decide – unite or be destroyed. Bilbo finds himself fighting for his life and the lives of his friends in the epic Battle of the Five Armies, as the future of Middle-earth hangs in the balance.

“The Hobbit” Trilogy tells a continuous story set in Middle-earth 60 years before “The Lord of the Rings,” which Academy Award®-winning filmmaker Peter Jackson and his team brought to the big screen in the blockbuster trilogy that culminated with the Oscar®-winning “The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King.”

Ian McKellen returns as Gandalf the Grey, with Martin Freeman in the central role of Bilbo Baggins, and Richard Armitage as Thorin Oakenshield. The international ensemble cast is led by Evangeline Lilly, Lee Pace, Luke Evans, Benedict Cumberbatch, Ken Stott, James Nesbitt, with Cate Blanchett, Ian Holm, Christopher Lee, Hugo Weaving, and Orlando Bloom. The film also stars, in alphabetical order, John Bell, Manu Bennett, Jed Brophy, Adam Brown, John Callen, Billy Connolly, Stephen Fry, Ryan Gage, Mark Hadlow, Peter Hambleton, Stephen Hunter, William Kircher, Sylvester McCoy, Graham McTavish, Dean O’Gorman, Mikael Persbrandt and Aidan Turner.




http://www.thehobbit.com/


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 30 2014, 4:21pm

Post #10 of 18 (363 views)
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The Master and Gollum [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And as for Gollum vs the Master - the Master is far too large and Gollum much too small, and besides, the Master's demise will likely be a much more poetic, and perhaps ironic, affair.



Well, in the book the Master died starving and alone in the wilderness. If Gollum had come upon him, he would be pretty weak. Gollum could definitely take him. That said, Peter Jackson may have a very different idea for the Master's demise and I'm not sure that Gollum will get a cameo at all.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


FoFo64
Rivendell


Jul 30 2014, 7:41pm

Post #11 of 18 (352 views)
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But that's how it was in the book... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the novel Dain appears at the last minute to fight a bit in the BOFA and then later become King Under the Mountain. If he only gets a few lines it would be very similar to how he's portrayed in the novel. I wouldn't miss him too much.

'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film

(This post was edited by FoFo64 on Jul 30 2014, 7:42pm)


Macfeast
Rohan


Jul 30 2014, 8:32pm

Post #12 of 18 (345 views)
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In the book... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Azog and Legolas didn't get expanded roles, either. This, however, is a close-to nine hours, three-movie adaptation, with a great many elements and characters already expanded upon. Why not give Dáin the expansion-treatment?


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jul 30 2014, 8:39pm)


FoFo64
Rivendell


Jul 30 2014, 8:44pm

Post #13 of 18 (335 views)
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I knew someone would bring up Azog and Legolas as a retort lol. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, it's true they weren't in the book, however once the decision has been made to take any measure necessary (whether we agree with it or not) to adapt the novel into a trilogy of films, any variety of possibilities become available.

PJ and crew can choose to add, subtract or leave untouched, as much as they like from the novels. And it seems with Dain they have chosen to possibly leave his role just as it is in the novel. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that. It just means that from their point of view there was no need to extend his role in the story, unlike the expansions Bard and several of the dwarves (Bofur, Kili, etc) received in the adaptation.

I can totally understand wanting to see more of Dain, but I am pointing out the fact that in the end it may not be a necessary inclusion in this version of The Hobbit. And I trust PJ and crew will make the choices that work best for this version. They have already for the most part (IMO).

'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film


Macfeast
Rohan


Jul 30 2014, 8:53pm

Post #14 of 18 (333 views)
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I get what you're saying. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just thought it curious to lead with the argument that "he had a small role in the book", when such things haven't stopped PJ and team before; If anything, they seem more than happy to treat such things as opportunities (which is what made me expect an expanded role for Dáin in the first place). Whether or not his role is important enough to warrant the expansion-treatment - whether or not his inclusion is necessary in PJ and team's version of the story - I think is a different argument altogether.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jul 30 2014, 9:01pm)


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Jul 30 2014, 8:57pm

Post #15 of 18 (327 views)
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Sometimes [In reply to] Can't Post

it doesn't pay to know too much. It is possible to have a 9 hour film of The Hobbit and never mention Dain and those who have not read the book would not know or care. We know and care because we have read the appendices to ROTK and love Dain. But his role as new KUTM can be mentioned in a line of dialog at any time after the battle and that would be enough to answer any question and succession any audience member might have.


FoFo64
Rivendell


Jul 30 2014, 9:03pm

Post #16 of 18 (320 views)
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Yeah lol [In reply to] Can't Post

The reason why I started with "That's how he was in the book.." is because so often movie detractors dislike the changes PJ has made to the novel in adapting it, so I was pointing out (perhaps rather facetiously, if you would pardon me) that if indeed Dain's role is being reduced to a few lines in the final product, then it would be in keeping in line with the novel itself.

I was pointing out the discrepancy in the logic movie detractors have when it comes to choosing what they like or dislike in PJ's adaptation. And so I ended it by saying that we'll have to wait and see whether according to this version of the story Dain's part will require the expansion-treatment at all.

'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film

(This post was edited by FoFo64 on Jul 30 2014, 9:05pm)


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jul 31 2014, 7:16pm

Post #17 of 18 (285 views)
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I understand that... [In reply to] Can't Post

However, as many people are fond of saying when going after purists, there are some things in the book that have to be changed or expanded for the film, and Dain certainly should fit that bill. I believe that we need to get to know Dain a little bit if we're going to accept him as King under the Mountain. People should not walk out of theaters thinking "I loved that movie, but it was so unfair that the latecomer Dain got to become king!!" If Dain doesn't get some expansion (like Macfeast says, just about every other character has), I think this is likely to happen. We need to understand a bit about Dain's motives for not aiding in the quest in the first place (since PJ felt he had to throw that in there), and we need something to make appear deserving of his ascension to the throne of Erebor. I still hope he kills Azog instead of Thorin, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

Anyway, I know you were giving me a sarcastic answer and attempting to point out some logical discrepancy or something, but I figured I'd give an answer that relied on more than just "Dain was in the book and Tauriel and Azog weren't!!".


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jul 31 2014, 7:22pm)


FoFo64
Rivendell


Jul 31 2014, 8:05pm

Post #18 of 18 (281 views)
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But that's how it feels like in the book! [In reply to] Can't Post

At least for me it did! A long time ago, I made a post on this forum about how I felt Dain came out of nowhere and took the throne of Erebor in the novel. And you disagreed by replying that he is a noble and fair king. http://newboards.theonering.net/..._string=Dain;#718277 (I have a crazy memory I know lol)

But you're agreeing with me now by saying that the audience could see his taking the throne in a negative way. In that light yes, I do think Dain should probably get some more screentime, however if you follow the book, it becomes okay to let the audience feel annoyed about Dain becoming King.

Cause the book also feels this way, particularly since he appears out of nowhere. (The more you think about it the book is somewhat flawed, compared to Tolkien's later LOTR.) I understand your opinion, but I still think that it can go either way. Depending on how PJ wants Dain to look like in the movie. Or what kind of emotional response towards him he wants from the audience. Either method, whether to expand him or not, is fine by me; so long as it fulfills what PJ is trying to accomplish.

'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film

(This post was edited by FoFo64 on Jul 31 2014, 8:07pm)

 
 

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