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GiantMushroomBear
Bree
Jul 29 2014, 8:16pm
Post #1 of 44
(1497 views)
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fundamental audience misunderstanding
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It seems to me like a lot of viewers around the web have chosen to completely disregard anything involving Therese films and just regurgitate the tired arguments which have been spewed since before the first film. Even though the new trailer is almost bereft of any ott action that people used to complain about, I've seen too many of the same complaints around the web. Not only that, but critics seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding in the tone and heart of this film, as if the last act of the book was in any way "whimsical" or "charming." (It's fine to have not read the book, but don't pretend that you somehow understand the tone better than Jackson when clearly you've confused the dramatic final act as "whimsy") I feel like it's become a norm among the audience to play devil's advocate towards these films. Although it would have been relevant for AUJ and DOS to an extent, I don't believe these tired cliches have any merit in discussing what we've seen involving the new film, which in no way demonstrates an inappropriate tone, ridiculous action (unless you consider the chariot scene, which is only absurd in CGI design rather than abandonment of physics) or unnecessary characters. Seriously, of all the trailers to criticize, this one was the most Bilbo centric and had almost no irrelevant character shots whatsoever. Even legolas only got like 3 seconds of screen time, which I guess is too much bloat according to some.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 8:30pm
Post #2 of 44
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You are correct, some will not like this film no matter what. As some have suggested, we're seeing the Chariot scene out of context - some of us think maybe they're trying to reach Dain, but at this point who knows. The central theme is Thorin's madness, which I think is well depicted. Bilbo gets the first line, Thorin gets the last, not a whole lot of dialog in between. And the song - oh, the song! Gets me every time, PERFECT choice!
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tsmith675
Gondor
Jul 29 2014, 8:32pm
Post #3 of 44
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Some people's arguments are so uninformed that it makes my head hurt.
Our destiny lies above us.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 8:41pm
Post #4 of 44
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There are haters, fanboys, critics, people with legitimate problems or issues, with legitimate disappointments, enthusiasts, trolls.
It is as it is. And almost all movies belonging to a "franchise" have to live with that. Sure, TH Trilogy gets a some extra level of criticism especially from some movie-"nerd"-corners. But has at the same time one of the most loyal fanbases, as it seems. So there is some balance in the end.
We had a thread about this just a few threads down, though.
We are not gonna change that (especially not by labelling all critics "haters" - you have not done that, but some tend to do it.)
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Joe20
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 8:45pm
Post #5 of 44
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Are people not allowed to have opinions?
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Seriously. I do love coming to these boards and engaging in conversations with other Tolkien fans, but it seems, as of late, that people here just can't seem to handle the fact that these films aren't on the majority of internet users' radars and that there are a lot of people who just don't connect with these films like they did the Lord Of The Rings.
I'm trying to be delicate in saying this to avoid offending anyone, but to me, it seems that the single mindedness everyone is speaking off seems to be coming from those same people.
(This post was edited by Joe20 on Jul 29 2014, 8:45pm)
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tsmith675
Gondor
Jul 29 2014, 8:50pm
Post #6 of 44
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I don't think that is what this poster is talking about.
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I didn't get that impression, unless I'm reading something wrong.
Our destiny lies above us.
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Jul 29 2014, 8:54pm
Post #7 of 44
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did not refer to any of the things you described in your post.I think you misunderstood the points he/she made.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Joe20
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 9:16pm
Post #8 of 44
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as an example of, what I see to be, a continued reluctance to acknowledge that others may just not be as enthusiastic about these films. And when such a situation arises, instead of allowing others to be free to choose what they like and dislike (Which I think is what is so great about film - the subjective nature of it) I see people here chalking it up to things like, as seen in the OP, "oh they don't understand", "they're uninformed" or "they're just trolls."
Like I said, I don't wish to offend anyone. But I think its a shame that people here can't just forget about what others thinking and allow them to their opinions without feeling the urge to call them out as some sort of lesser movie goers.
(This post was edited by Joe20 on Jul 29 2014, 9:18pm)
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TheSexyBeard
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 9:29pm
Post #9 of 44
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One thing about these films I unfortunately see popping up a lot on is the moment Ian McKellen broke down on set due to working with the green screen so the dwarves and Bilbo would be to the correct scale. This is normally followed by comments such "This is what's wrong with these films" or something similar. I can understand why some people might not like how these scenes were filmed but what bothers me is that it seems the aftermath of this event is always left out, when the production crew cheered Mckellen up by decorating his trailer and the amount of scenes featuring the this method of filming were reduced.
I've seen some on set screengrabs of Mckellan looking visibly upset which I'm assuming is from the extended edition appendices in which case I imagine the appendices would make the point of how this was "fixed" which makes it look like (IMO) that people are deliberatley leaving out the happier ending.
If the screengrabs are not from the appenidices then ignore that last part. 
Yes, my username is terrible.
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jul 29 2014, 9:36pm
Post #10 of 44
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...when I wrote up that piece a while back for the main page. I noticed how all the articles thus far had been putting such a negative light on it, without noting what PJ & Crew had done to cheer Sir Ian up. So I felt inclined to tell the other side of it for our article.
As for detractors using that as ammunition of sorts, you'd think that there was never any green-screen used in the LotR films. I don't mind negative opinions, but using arguments that are ill-informed is where I have a problem.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jul 29 2014, 9:37pm)
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MEIGWIT
Bree
Jul 29 2014, 9:54pm
Post #11 of 44
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I propose a re-edit to see what is more entertaining
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I could not agree more with your assessment. To be frank complaints and personal attacks even seem to have too much of an eerie UNIformity. An almost band wagon idea driving them. The ott complaints for instance drive me a ott. It seems that critics would rather the company escape Thranduil's halls completely unnoticed and float merrily down the river peacefully rather than have a fast and exciting barrel sequence. I propose a re-edit to see what is more entertaining and who has more imagination: Peter or the so called "experts." Someone, maybe even I'll do it, needs to re-edit the movies together to include only the things that were literally from the book and see how entertaining it is as a movie compared to what we currently have. I for one can already see where that road leads… absolute boredom. The "tone" argument is ridiculous as the Hobbit book in itself was completely different from the LOTR books tonally. To complain about tone being wrong is as ridiculous as complaining about how one actor played Hamlet. It never ends. There is no right, there is no wrong. It is art. Peter's perspective works for some, it does not for others. People complained before the films were even being released saying, "If the Hobbit films have the same tone as LOTR, Peter will have ruined them!!!" It is absolutely crazy that we can't as a society just sit back and enjoy artists' creation without ridiculing the artists themselves. Nearly everyone here seems to qualify themselves as the bloodiest best expert that ever lived in the matter of all things Middle-Earth! We are all fans. Peter is a big fan. So is the whole team. I for one absolutely cannot, CANNOT! criticize a man who will have dedicated 20 YEARS of his life to creating these works of art. I CANNOT do it! I cannot be anything but in awe of his fandom, dedication, and master skills as a director. I cannot do anything but marvel at this beautiful vision he has created. I cannot do anything but be in wonder at his beautiful imagination brought to life. I absolutely CANNOT critique his work, but will happily and joyfully be grateful to him and thank him for sharing what he takes from the books and sharing that with us. It is as though you were sitting in a book club and one person describes what they envisioned as they read The Hobbit in such a way that you could not help but marvel. He is a human being and so am I and so are you. And I cannot help but be in awe of what his version of the story looks like! It is truly beautiful!!! If it is not for you, then that is fine! Enjoy the world your imagination has created! That is why Tolkien chose applicability. Maybe even make your own film one day and share it with us! Choose to live and see things in a positive light and your world will open to possibilities you never dreamed of! That is all.
It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 10:12pm
Post #12 of 44
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if they are the correct ones.
Hmmm, you're not falling in line like the rest of them. Could you be a troll?
Three movies good, two movies baaaaad.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 29 2014, 10:49pm
Post #13 of 44
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Besides, I haven't read whatever debris is out there, and I don't need to. It's the first time a trailer ever brought me to tears and that's enough.
Besides, what's wrong with the chariot? I loved that - I haven't studied it enough yet, but looks like it has some nice spinning wheel blades and is a nod back to the
carts the dwarves were using in AUJ when they left Erebor.
So it's not like dwarves didn't build carts, chariots, wagons. I am just wanting to know how they got the animals, but it's not a far stretch
to think of animals escaping in chaos and just settling into an area. For heaven's sake the U.S. has a wild pig problem, among many others
like boas that were once pets.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 29 2014, 10:54pm
Post #14 of 44
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But not everyone wanted to be "wowed"...
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Some people were simply more interested in seeing the book brought to life, and would have found that entertainment enough.
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Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 12:00am
Post #16 of 44
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l'm not going to just blindly agree with you...
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Because I don't! These films are horrible. I have never been so disappointed by a cinematic experience since the Star Wars films.
You think this trailer is "bereft of any ott action" that people complain about??
Guess you missed -
Bard rolling down a hill in a cart (probably taking out 500 orcs the way bombur does)
Dwarf cavalry on crazy cgi rams
Ice chase on a chariot that will no doubt go for half an hour with absurd physics
Legolas surfing Smaug...hasn't been shown yet but pj wont be able to resist
And I can almost see Beorn arriving on a cliff roaring then proceeding to cannonball down the mountain side like blanka straight into the cgi orcs!
A film almost entirely just one battle? Peter Lucas is going to go nuts with absurd physics and crazy situations but then expect us to care when people start dying. Thus far characters have just needed to poke their sword in any direction and a convenient cgi orc has been there to take it. No mountanside can't just be rolled down and every arrow hits it's mark whilst been shot dancing on someones head.
Good lord...
(This post was edited by Avnar on Jul 30 2014, 12:10am)
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MEIGWIT
Bree
Jul 30 2014, 12:04am
Post #17 of 44
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That's not what I'm saying though. It is beside the point. Maybe one day others can make middle earth movies and entertain us upon their imaginations as well. I for one enjoy being wowed. The point is enjoy or don't enjoy PJ's version, but please please don't degrade a man's 20 years of work by complaining. That does absolutely nothing good. I'm not saying you are specifically, but I am directing it to whoever does degrade one man's artistic imagination. I have been beaten down my whole life by critics. I wonder what the world would be like if we lifted people's imaginations up instead of drag them down.
It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.
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MEIGWIT
Bree
Jul 30 2014, 12:09am
Post #18 of 44
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How about you make The Hobbit into a movie?
It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 30 2014, 12:22am
Post #19 of 44
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Salmacis, your point is valid of course.
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That “Some people were simply more interested in seeing the book brought to life, and would have found that entertainment enough”.
Then there are those of us who wanted more, either something similar to LotR or a bigger, more grown-up version of the story. I got what I wanted. Unfortunately, PJ couldn`t please everyone.
(This post was edited by Noria on Jul 30 2014, 12:23am)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 30 2014, 12:38am
Post #20 of 44
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It was more a reply to your comment...
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...that a more faithful adaptation would have been "absolute boredom". I've heard this argument, and others like it, quite often on these boards. But the fact of the matter is that we just do not know how good a more faithful adaptation would have been, because we won't get the chance to see it.
Whatever though, glad some of us got what we wanted. Gotta say that for the most part I enjoyed the new trailer much more than the DoS teaser
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 30 2014, 12:51am
Post #21 of 44
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About a more "grown-up" version...
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That is what I wanted to. I'm not someone who wanted every scene filmed like the book, and I realized from the get-go that these movies would have to tie-in to the LotR movies and would therefore have a more adult, darker tone than the book. I didn't really expect or even want Beorn's serving animals or the Talking Purse, and I was pretty psyched when I first heard that the White Council stuff was being added. But there's just been so many changes and so much added stuff that has nothing to do with Tolkien, that I can't help but feel like it was all a bit of a missed opportunity. The movies are alright, pretty fun in their own right. Just a little disappointing, that's all. Isn't as if it's the end of the world or anything
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GiantMushroomBear
Bree
Jul 30 2014, 1:55am
Post #22 of 44
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And I welcome all opinions. I don't care what people think, I care how they think, and the complaints about the trailer I've seen don't present their thoughts well. I had plenty of criticisms for the last two films, but I haven't been convinced that they are applicable in discussing this trailer. For instance, rather than examining the entire trailer, which satisfied many previous criticisms (focus on Bilbo, no radagast, no ninja elves, consistent tone) I've seen many people dwindling on a cgi chariot and a nano second shot of bard on a cart. But you have to consider the whole picture.
(Notice the absence of the word troll in this post and the topic)
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 3:49am
Post #23 of 44
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I just watched AUj:EE again yesterday, and I've found I liked it a lot more than I did the first time.
To be honest. I've wanted the Hobbit films to tie in with LOTR. For myself, all of Tolkien's Middle-Earth stories are connected together.
Ever since Tolkien first mentioned the Necromancer in his book, I've wanted to know the full story. Now thirty years later it's happening.
___________________________________________________
From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jul 30 2014, 4:51am
Post #24 of 44
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I think part of this is picking up on things in the trailer that hint at something evident in the previous films. For anyone who disliked the cartoony OTT action of the previous two films (no one will deny these scenes exist, for better or worse), seeing Bard bouncing down a hill in a cart is like the kiss of death. Then one's imagination begins to spin out of control when you wonder what Jackson might do when not dozens, or hundreds are locked in battle, but thousands upon thousands. We KNOW his approach in this film is different. It would actually be a bit bizarre to expect that suddenly this film will bring everything down to a more LOTR level. Why would that ever happen?
I suppose we're all in it, those who love it and those who hate it and everyone in between, to the bitter end.
(This post was edited by Bishop on Jul 30 2014, 4:52am)
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redgiraffe
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 5:24am
Post #25 of 44
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An almost band wagon idea driving them. The ott complaints for instance drive me a ott. It seems that critics would rather the company escape Thranduil's halls completely unnoticed and float merrily down the river peacefully rather than have a fast and exciting barrel sequence.
I mean no disrespect to you, though I feel disrespected because I'm one of those people who complained about that OTT action sequence. First, who are you to say that someone else's opinion is less valid because they think it could have been done better as a non action sequence? Perhaps it could have. Secondly, A lot of people (like me) who complain about the OTT action sequence aren't complaining about the fact that it was an action sequence instead of them just drifting away unnoticed. We're complaining about the fact that it's an OTT action sequence that is, in our opinion, devoid of gritty realism which we would have loved to have seen. I would have rather seen real actors in prosthetics without their heads popping off all over the place, and pointless shots of legolas balancing on dwarf heads and easily jumping from one to the other. Give me something gritty and more believable like in LOTR. So please stop making assumptions about people who have a problem with it.
Regardless of all of that I honestly have a bigger problem with so many people making threads about how other people are negative or critical of the films. We get it. Some people like it, some don't, others have mixed opinions. Please stop making thread after thread after thread about the "group" of "nay-sayers" and "yay-sayers." It's been done a thousand times and it does nothing but cause heat. Accept the fact that this board is for open discussion, and that people have different opinions. And then move on.
Furthermore, as I've said in one of these many cloned threads before: the problem isn't that we think we could make a better movie. The problem is that we think PJ is capable of making a better movie, and we don't think he did.
In all seriousness this is really one thing that is just starting to cause me so much anger. The lack of respect around here. I have always been respectful to others' opinions, especially if they disagree with me. I'd advise you guys to start doing the same. You can start by not making assumptions about the people who disagree with you.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
(This post was edited by redgiraffe on Jul 30 2014, 5:29am)
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Bravo!!!!!!
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