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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jul 29 2014, 2:54am
Post #26 of 53
(1011 views)
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So everyone is terrible, greedy, lazy, and selfish except for Thorin? I'm not saying there aren't multiple sides to this or that Thorin should be a complete saint. But I don't think that the way Thorin handles everything is completely justifiable. Of course the dragon sickness plays a big part in that, but Thorin was at his best when he was able to put his pride aside. He was able to admit that he was wrong about Bilbo, and he allowed Elrond to look at his map, which Balin of all people told him not to do, just to name a couple examples.
While those are arguably less significant than the whole gold issue, I think it shows that Thorin slowly becomes someone he's not, which can't be completely blamed on "madness." While there was a certain level of greed and entitlement on all sides, I think in the end even Thorin realizes his refusal to compromise wasn't the honorable thing to do.
Again, Thorin seemed very sincere about his willingness to let "all share in the wealth of the mountain." And he wanted to leave Laketown because they were in a hurry to get to the mountain. I don't think it had to do with his feelings about PEOPLE. And if Thorin really thought so badly of these "squatters", then you make it sound like he was lying to them in the first place and just telling them what they wanted to hear. That doesn't exactly paint such a pretty picture of Thorin. I think he meant every word, but it's one thing to make promises before dealing with a dragon. Thorin had a chance to do what he promised when these people needed it more than ever, and he refuses. I don't know how it will play out in the movie, but the reason the refugees come and "knock at the door" is because they assumed all of the dwarves were dead and they needed gold to help rebuild.
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Loresilme
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 2:55am
Post #27 of 53
(1009 views)
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and we've got Radagast who DOESN'T offer to charge off to Erebor after delivering his message, tho he might have if the dwarves were hedgehogs, I guess
This was so funny. Thanks for the laugh :).
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 29 2014, 3:36am
Post #28 of 53
(996 views)
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So Bard didn't deserve his portion of gold that rightfully belonged to him? And what about the dragon torching Laketown? Should the dwarves compensate these people who helped them and whose village burned because of them? Or should they wash their hands of it and go "whatever, it wasn't me that died so sucks to be them"....Sounds like Thorin is the thief here, at least where Bard's concerned.
Peaceful negotiation is always a better alternative to violent bloodbaths, IMO. And people shouldn't kill each other over gold- it's not worth it. Lives of good people are far more precious than some dinky old metal.
Terrorists and people asking for aid from those whom they helped and completely backstabbed them by sending a dragon in their direction to kill their people and torch their homes are two completely different things, IMO.
Let me give you a more relevant (at least I think so) example:
A company- we'll say a mortgage company for the example here- charged you twice for a house payment by accident. However, they refuse to give you your money back, no matter how many times you plea for them to do so. The burden of the unexpected cost makes you unable to pay your utility payments (electric, water, so forth) and your power gets shut off and water cut to your property. The city declares the home uninhabitable without power and water, and you're kicked out until you can resolve your debt to the utility company, thus ending up on the street.
Wouldn't you try to contact the company and get the money back (plus any late fees for your utility bills)? Wouldn't you go all the way up to the owner/CEO of the company? What if they continued to say no? Would you take them to court until the wrong had been righted?
That's exactly what Bard's trying to do here- he and his people lost their home BECAUSE of the dwarves' actions, and all he's trying to do is receive enough money to right that wrong, in order to get shelter and food over their heads before winter really gets going. Not only that, but in Bard's case many lives were lost- shouldn't widows and orphaned children and mothers and fathers who lost their children receive some sort of recompense for their great loss? Especially if some of the gold was rightfully theirs to begin with?
All Bard is asking for his his people's own money back, just like you would be in that example. Far different from terrorists.
Not really. Yes I think the people of Laketown deserved a share. I also think the way they went about asking for it(in the books) was completely wrong headed, especially getting the elves involved.
BUT no it isn't the Dwarves fault that Smaug burned down Laketown. It is SMAUG'S fault. SMAUG and SMAUG alone. Just because everyone else preferred to pretend he wasn't there for a hundred years doesn't make it the fault of the people trying to regain their home land in a world that mainly treated them as outcasts or worse doesn't make it their fault. It's Smaug's fault and Smaug's alone. In this case, the films, the dwarves did their best to try and kill him and put a really good effort in.
Laketown deserved a share of the money because part of it was Dale's and because they had rendered some aid to this group of dwarves recently. But they didn't deserve it because somehow it was the Dwarves fault that their home was destroyed. It wasn't their fault unless burying your head in the sand and saying "not my problem, leave it to our children or grandchildren to contend with for the dragon to wake up" is a nice thing to do(and having the benefit of knowing LOTR, we know Smaug could have been a HUGE issue within the next few decades, sure they'd all be dead, but their children and grandchildren would have had to deal with it)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 29 2014, 4:25am
Post #29 of 53
(982 views)
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And courteous, thank you.
While those are arguably less significant than the whole gold issue, I think it shows that Thorin slowly becomes someone he's not, which can't be completely blamed on "madness." While there was a certain level of greed and entitlement on all sides, I think in the end even Thorin realizes his refusal to compromise wasn't the honorable thing to do.
I don't know. I can't answer that. Because as I understand dwarves, their very nature is to be fiercely loyal and stand by you on the one hand, and quote the Appendices "fight with you ? can't remember the exact quote but something like "fighting you to the bitter end about things they disagree with you about." If this is their very nature, bone deep (Bofur being somewhat unusually open for a dwarf) I'm not comfortable with putting the way we think a person should think onto what is arguably a different species. The dwarves are what they are, re WETA "a need to mine, to hoard those riches."
Thorin becomes someone he's not, but I will disagree that wasn't because of the dragon sickness. Throughout these films he's richly dressed, but he's not all blinged up. Thorin steps right over a pile of gold in the troll cave. When he talks to Balin, it's not about gold, it's about his family. He wanders looking for his father. When Thorin speaks at the table he talks about the "wealth of our people" and "taking back Erebor." Beyond a natural inclination of any dwarf to hoard stuff and appreciate rich craftsmanship e.g. Orcrist, I see a huge passion for reclaiming the kingdom and home, but not treasure per se. And it's murky for me now how much Thorin is sickening because of the Arkenstone, or the gold itself. But dragon sickness is the risk Thorin took, and he loses. But there was no-one else to do what he did.
The other point - even if Thorin took the measure of this slimy Master and outright lied (tho I don't think he did) I would not blame him. I would have done the same. Because the clock was ticking, if they couldn't get moving they were going to lose everything. And Thorin is a KING of an entire exiled people, this is not just for himself and says as much to Fili.
If the town under the Master wasn't a corrupt place to be, Bard wouldn't have had to smuggle them in and all that, and Thorin could have just asked or bartered for help. So one way or the other he did what he needed to do. As for these people, as portrayed, again, they didn't offer to HELP. Maybe it's learned helplessness, maybe when no-one would help Kili and the dwarves they figured why bother when there was no proof Thorin would return - that makes me uncomfortable.
"So everyone is terrible, greedy, lazy, and selfish except for Thorin?" No, of course not. But Thorin shouldn't be condemned for having walked through multiple fires and being scarred, instead of becoming a saint.
"I don't know how it will play out in the movie, but the reason the refugees come and "knock at the door" is because they assumed all of the dwarves were dead and they needed gold to help rebuild."
True - I keep forgetting that. But I will add - Thorin won't back down, and that doesn't surprise me. But it's also true the Laketowners could have walked away rather than engaging, and hooking up with the elves yet. Because seeing that many elves lined up re the trailer - if those archers are aiming at 13 little dwarves in Erebor - meh. Maybe that's why Bard looks overwhelmed in that shot, because everything gets so out of hand. Or not.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 29 2014, 4:30am
Post #30 of 53
(970 views)
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tho it DOES bug me, you can go on about the fate of the world, OK, but not one word from Radagast - I mean if anyone could deal w. a dragon since he's kind of a Dr. Doolittle LOL. 
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 4:51am
Post #31 of 53
(992 views)
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Are you for real, dude?
Well, I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Wordofmask
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 8:00am
Post #32 of 53
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This is exactly what I was thinking when I finished the book
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but not for Laketowners. They deserve the share of Thorin's gold. It cant be the same for the elves who jailed Thorin and co and have nothing to do with the death of Smaug.
(This post was edited by Wordofmask on Jul 29 2014, 8:02am)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 8:25am
Post #33 of 53
(922 views)
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All Bard is asking for his his people's own money back, just like you would be in that example.
You just lacked a handbag!
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 29 2014, 12:59pm
Post #34 of 53
(888 views)
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In the book, nobody behaves well during the Siege of Erebor – that is the whole point.
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The Elvenking plans to loot Erebor because he believes Thorin and the others must be dead and with Smaug gone the treasure is there for the taking. But he turns aside to help the people of Laketown and thenceforth he and Bard are allies. They go to the Mountain seeking treasure to support the destitute Laketowners, with no intention of fighting Dwarves because they believe that there are no Dwarves alive there.
Faced with armies at his gate, Thorin has some right on his side but a lot of wrong too. Dale was looted by Smaug and its treasure taken into Erebor. So Bard and his people have a right to some of that treasure. IMO Thorin really does bear some indirect responsibility for the destruction of Laketown and any right-thinking person would want to help the people who had helped him. The Elvenking not so much, though he does say “Long will I tarry before I begin this war for gold.” But Tolkien explicitly says that Thorin is being worked upon by the dragon-haunted gold and that makes him totally unreasonable.
Bilbo has already stolen the Arkenstone, though he knows it was wrong and that trouble will come of it.
But you know, all that testosterone in the air and all that greed and so-called honour and everybody gets over-excited and wants to fight. It’s only when the Goblins arrive that sanity prevails.
In the book and surely in the movie (because it is the whole point), Thorin repents of his attitude and actions and tells Bilbo he would take back his words and deeds towards him. His words about valuing food and cheer more than gold are also repentance for all his behavior. Thorin is a true tragic character.
I love all these characters in the book and especially in the movie where they are more vivid, but I’m not blind to their faults and mistakes.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jul 29 2014, 1:12pm
Post #35 of 53
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Tolkien's description of Thorin's gold sickness:
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“But also he did not reckon with the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded, nor with dwarvish hearts. Long hours in the past days Thorin had spent in the treasury, and the lust of it was heavy on him. Though he had hunted chiefly for the Arkenstone, yet he had an eye for many another wonderful thing that was lying there, about which were wound old memories of the labours and the sorrows of his race.”
Excerpt From: J.R.R. Tolkien. “The Hobbit.” iBooks. https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=360639382
And once again the world has not arranged itself just for me.
(This post was edited by Elarie on Jul 29 2014, 1:13pm)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 1:54pm
Post #36 of 53
(869 views)
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Thanks for taking the objective view here
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I was happy to just read this thread and tsk at the defences (and offences) responses seem to offer in abundance. I am a Thranduil fangirl and I would take his side but I can see the faults in his view, as with all the other characters. I am however, heartily sick of the tendency of those who WANT to paint him as a one-note character just re the prof's words on his desire for treasure or the party-king just re that meme  *ahem* Anyways! So totally agree: there you have it, nobody was all right or all wrong. That's the beauty of this book in it's latter half. I so wish we could have the aged-up version the prof had plans to write.
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment. But call me Lurker.
 Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
 Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
 Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 2:29pm
Post #37 of 53
(874 views)
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I kind of agree with the OP, in the sense that I never really saw Book Thorin as "greedy," selfish perhaps, but not greedy. He came to the mountain, in the Book, for treasure. That was his goal, and after being imprisoned by the Elven King he had a big problem with tthe elves, so his demand that they first leave is most understandable. He DID offer to compensate the LakeTowners, and I always thought Bilbo was wrong to do what he did. Good intentions don't make your actions right.
However, clearly PJ has taken the attitude that Movie Thorin is indeed a villian, albeit one with a "dragon sickness" that is making him most unreasonable. Movie Thorin DID promise to share the gold with LakeTown, so he owes them. And it's ironic that his big criticism of Thranduil is that he turned his back on the suffering of Thorin's people, and then acts like he will do the same to the LakeTowners. DOS also made a big deal about the white diamonds, which from what I can tell is the only thing Thranduil wants. So I can see both sides. Basically everyone is greedy here, except Bilbo (I assume), It will be interesting to see what happens when word of the Orcs gets there - will Thorin lock down Erebor and leave the LakeTowners & Elves to defend themselves, or will he get ready to fight the Orcs, led by Azog? Where is Azog, anyway? Richard Armitage talked in an interview about Thorin going on a "suicidal run", and we all know how it's going to end(sniff ). But when and why, we'll just have to wait & see.
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NateGate
Rivendell
Jul 29 2014, 3:35pm
Post #38 of 53
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Since Tolkein seems to be so anti-"greed", then hopefully his children can reciprocate this quality. Peter Jackson can demand rights from Christopher Tolkein to make a Silmarillion film, and if Christopher refuses, then he is being selfish just like Thorin. Am I right?
But seriously now, just because you don't want to give something of yours to someone else doesn't mean you are greedy. Frankly, if a bunch of elves who maltreated me earlier and a bunch of homeless bums led by Bard were pounding on my front gate, it would be war. You can't call Thorin greedy because he seeks to protect what is rightfully his from a bunch of marauders, and is willing to die for it. Its a matter of principle, its not the gold that he is willing to die for. Its his heritage, its his rights, and its his pride in who he is. Bard and the elves are literally threatening open war on him if he doesn't pay them a certain amount, making them no better than terrorists demanding a ransom. And everyone knows, you don't negotiate with terrorists.
Bard may have deserved a little treasure, but nowhere near 1/14 share and NOT with his armies on Thorin's doorstep. Its not Thorin's fault that Smaug chose to go down and torch Laketown. If you read the book again, you will see that Smaug often left the mountain to eat the maidens that wandered out of Laketown. Its their own fault for living near a time bomb and refusing to prepare. And it is of course Smaug's fault since he has free will and makes his own choices. Thorin doesn't owe them anything, though I think it would seem right if he did give a small amount to them. The elves though...PLEASE. Thranduil as boss as you are, you are kind of a *bleep*.
Size matters...
http://37.media.tumblr.com/00bbfb5c354255e11cd8386374b03bbe/tumblr_n5p4jtJVNT1siq18no1_1280.jpg
(This post was edited by NateGate on Jul 29 2014, 3:39pm)
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Wordofmask
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 5:40pm
Post #39 of 53
(848 views)
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Tolkien let PJ and co no choice. Thorin as villian is needed to make any sense for the rest of the story.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 6:02pm
Post #40 of 53
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I don't understand what that means....I am not familiar with that particular idiom....sorry for my ignorance but could you explain it?
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 6:10pm
Post #41 of 53
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I thought the "I want my money back" was you quoting Margaret Thatcher. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 6:13pm
Post #42 of 53
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I was simply stating that Bard is asking for his own money back, because he is the heir of Dale and some of the treasure was from Dale originally 
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 6:24pm
Post #43 of 53
(811 views)
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I know, I just thought you used the chance to use that quote. Cause it really fits.
Oh dear, now I caused confusion :D
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 29 2014, 10:32pm
Post #45 of 53
(808 views)
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Develop some understanding, compassion and empathy! The Elves and Men were convinced that Thorin and his companions must be dead, until they found out otherwise when they reached Erebor. Both folk were armed because word of Smaug's demise would heve reached many others besides tiemselves--particularly Orcs and evil Men.
Bard wanted compensation and aid for the people of Lake-town, who had helped the company at need and were now devastated because of the wakening of the Dragon. Bard appropriately uses his status as the slayer of Smaug to press his claim.
The claim of the Wood-elves is the more questionable. Yes, Thranduil wanted to add to his treasury, but finding the Dwarves alive made him more reluctant to take action. The films do furnish Thranduil with an additional motive, to reclaim the gems that were denied him by King Thror. This at least gives his claim a veneer of legitimacy.
If the dragon-sickness had not taken hold of Thorin then he might have been more reasonable. The Elves might have at least been able to mollify him to some extent wth apologies for his treatment in the Woodland Realm. As it was, things were almost resolved reasonably peaceably before the arrival of Dain and then the Orcs.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 29 2014, 11:20pm
Post #46 of 53
(798 views)
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The Elves and Men were convinced that Thorin and his companions must be dead, until they found out otherwise when they reached Erebor.
I keep forgetting that in my images of a pitchfork-toting slavering rabble with flaming torches, who can't even give this long-suffering, lonely king
and his company 5 seconds of peace before showing up with burlap sacks demanding a cut *grins*
Yes, Otaku, you have kindly provided me with book details before (or someone did, when I complained why the Laketowners were fussing re food
when 10 tons of meat had just fallen on them *cough*. E.g., the lake got poisoned tho I could quibble over the reality of that re actual fish kills...)
ANYWAY. It probably won't be cute in the movie, but the image of these little dwarves popping their heads up and looking over the walls,
and basically telling off the unwanted visitors to leave Monty Python style keeps appearing in my head, for the moment 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 29 2014, 11:24pm
Post #47 of 53
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Thorin: "Your mother was a fish and your father smelled of elderberries!"
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"Go away! or we will taunt you a second time!"
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 30 2014, 12:06am
Post #48 of 53
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For the Laketowners, the lack of shelter and winter clothing in the winter would be as big an issue as the lack of food. Packed into poorly heated log cabins or tents, with inadequate clothing and bad food, they would be decimated. In fact Tolkien says that's what happened despite Bard's efforts.
One thing I like about Tolkien is that he doesn't shy away from consequences and there are no completely happy endings. Many of the people of Laketown died in the winter after the BOFA, women and children of Rohan were killed in the Orc invasion of the Westfold, Hobbits died during the Scouring of the Shire. People die who deserve to live, or like Frodo, live but are destroyed.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 30 2014, 12:12am
Post #49 of 53
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I can still laugh *grins*. For now, because the trailer was gentle enough tho full of sorrow.
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patrickk
Rohan
Jul 30 2014, 10:20pm
Post #50 of 53
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...that you are not from one of the very successful Nordic welfare states, and their very sucessful public education systems. I am not Nordic but also from a country with a good welfare regime and public education systems, which provides good spread of opportunities for all and a better cohort for employers to choose from but I digress. I am hard pressed to see what is wrong wth that, and the Hobbit is very insructive on these things, but perhaps these blogs are not the place for such idealogical battles. I doubt Tolkein was a socialist but rather a generous soul.
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ROFLOL
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