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Elf/Maia Unions
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 26 2014, 8:06pm

Post #1 of 38 (2583 views)
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Elf/Maia Unions Can't Post

This is a sparked a little by the Eärendil and Elwing thread.

We know that there was at least one union of Elf and Maia: Thingol and Melian. Do you think there may have been other unions in Valinor? If not, why?

It would make sense to me that there would have been at least a handful of Elf/Maia relationships in Valinor. There never seemed to be any condemnation of Melian for marrying Thingol, so I don't see why it would (necessarily) be frowned upon in Valinor. Of course, all of this is pure speculation. It's interesting food for thought.

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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jul 26 2014, 8:47pm

Post #2 of 38 (2390 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

Like Morgoth, Melian, in her union with Thingol, became more 'fixed' and 'grounded' in form than originally. If anything, I see her diminishing in power. As such, I don't think she would be chastised, for she was not seeking self-aggradisement or to become greater. Now if she had plotted to set up her descendants as 'divine' rulers with a 'god-like' claim on the throne, then she might have been a bit too far off. Morgoth sought power and glory, and that subverted the plans of others and Eru, but as long as she stayed within Eru's limits, I think she could do whatever she wanted.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 26 2014, 11:03pm

Post #3 of 38 (2381 views)
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the blue part [In reply to] Can't Post

Note 5: Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hroar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a 'self arraying', it may tend to approach the state of incarnation, especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). It is said the longer and the more the same hroa is used, the greater is the bond of 'habit' and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As rainment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (...) a habit, a customary garb.

[..]

Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a 'spirit' (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hroa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hroa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hroa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound and form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.'

[..]

'Nonetheless it appears to be an axan [law, rule, as primarly proceeding from Eru], or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.'

JRRT, note 5 to Osanwe-centa, Vinyar Tengwar number 39


It's interesting to hear 'the narrator' [author behind him] note that it is the only known case... although I realize some will emphasize the only case that is known in any event, in the spirit of speculation.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 26 2014, 11:11pm)


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jul 27 2014, 12:27am

Post #4 of 38 (2364 views)
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How about Bombadil and Goldberry? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 27 2014, 12:37am

Post #5 of 38 (2364 views)
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melian's habit [In reply to] Can't Post

 
melian certainly spent a lot of time in her hroa, and conducted a lot of binding habits: eating, drinking, sexual relations, giving birth, raising a child.

when thingol died she departed doriath. back to aman, no? if so, how? in her hroa, via a ship? without her hroa, floating through the air?

my thought is that in tolkien's world, the union of a maia and a non-maia was so exceedingly unusual that it might not have been repeated. additionally, that union might have almost been destined to occur, for the purpose of enriching both elvenkind and edainkind.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 27 2014, 6:06am

Post #6 of 38 (2366 views)
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IIRC [In reply to] Can't Post

Pengolodh is a scholar of Gondolin, correct? I definitely don't think that there were any more Elf/Maia unions in Middle-earth. He wouldn't have had any knowledge of what happened in Valinor after the Flight of the Noldor.

The core of my argument is this: if Melian and Thingol's union was not something unnatural worthy of condemnation (which it wasn't), then it seems logical that it would have happened at least a few times. Take Elf/Man unions; it certainly happened three times (four, if you accept Mithrellas and Imrazor).

I know it's all speculation, but it just seems odd that something that isn't unnatural would only happen once.

TolkienBlog.com


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 27 2014, 6:17am

Post #7 of 38 (2333 views)
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Hm [In reply to] Can't Post

It's so tough to say for certain what either one of them is. Goldberry actually confuses me more than Tom does. How is she the River-daughter? What does that even mean?

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squire
Half-elven


Jul 27 2014, 1:50pm

Post #8 of 38 (2337 views)
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Outliers [In reply to] Can't Post

You might take the other view, and see the single known Maia/Eldar union as the highest and thus least likely of the cross-kind marriages that Tolkien scatters throughout his stories and obviously regards as significant. Elf/Mortal marriages are rare but more common, and Numenorean/'Twilight' and 'Men of Darkness'/Orc marriages or matings are still remarkable but so common that they are rarely identified by personal names.

All of these occur, I think, within the two families of the 'Children of Eru'. Evidently Dwarves, Ents, and Trolls are of such different creation and form that interracial sexual marriages are flat out impossible.



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Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 27 2014, 1:50pm

Post #9 of 38 (2335 views)
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Pengolodh [In reply to] Can't Post

Pengolodh does return into the West however, and there, I would think, continued to be a sage in general anyway: the name appears explained as 'teaching sage' in Tolkien's Words, Phrases, and Passages (at least), and in Sindarin it was said: 'Gološ was used of any sage or loremaster. A teacher of lore was pengološ. KWEN- (whence kwenedé) 'speak with rational words'

When he returned West might raise a bit of a question mark, since Tolkien appears to have revised his history, or forgot about his earlier history and invented a new one, which is still revising in some sense. The Editors of Vinyar Tengwar explain this well, with my emphasis added...

Editors Note 25: An earlier and more detailed biographical sketch of Pengološ appears in Quendi and Eldar (XI:396-97), which describes him as "an Elf of mixed Sindarin and Ńoldorin ancestry, born in Nevrast who lived in Gondolin from its foundation", and who after the fall of Gondolin "collected much material among the survivors of the wars at Sirion's Mouth concerning languages and gesture-systems with which, owing to the isolation of Gondolin, he had not before had any direct acquaintance". He is said to have remained in Middle-earth well into the Second Age to further his studies, dwelling for a time among the Dwarves of Khazad-dūm, but he sailed to Eressėa "when the shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador".

The account of Pengološ in ELN differs from this in some points. ELN states that Pengološ was an Exile, meaning that he was born in Valinor instead of Nevrast and had no Sindarin blood. Also, in ELN Pengološ is said to have learned something of Khuzdūl "in its archaic form as used in the habitations of the Dwarves in Ered Lindon" (i.e., in Nogrod and Belegost), whereas Quendi and Eldar states that Pengološ gained his knowledge of Khuzdūl from the Dwarves of Khazad-dūm in the Second Age.



So from that comparison -- when Pengolodh learned about some form of Dvarvish -- some wonder if Tolkien imagined that Pengolodh not only became a Noldo, but that maybe he also returned to the West sooner.

In any case, upon his return, what he might know or learn [or not know or not learn] about Elven and Maiaran unions is another matter, which might even include the grey and somewhat confusing issue of the Exiles returning West, with respect to returning to Valinor...

... or not. Or not 'permanently'... or something. As I say that question alone is a bit 'unfinished' or grey Smile


squire
Half-elven


Jul 27 2014, 1:50pm

Post #10 of 38 (2316 views)
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Excellent research // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



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Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 27 2014, 2:06pm

Post #11 of 38 (2314 views)
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Thanks Squire! [In reply to] Can't Post

For anyone who may not have this issure of VT, note 5 is very interesting in general. It's also rather longer than my edited version here, but I tried to hit some posssible 'highlights' leading to the part that refers to Melian.

Anyway, for the thread: in my opinion, I think Melian was a singular case of Maia and Elf...

... although I'm not sure why two eagle-maiar could not have had children [eggs]... little Maiar with feathers Wink


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 27 2014, 2:15pm

Post #12 of 38 (2323 views)
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a late idea on the Dwarves? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Dvarvish



Yes Dvarvish... the Dvarves were somewhat smaller than the Petty-Dwarves.

And the Petty-dvarves rode firece chipmunks into battle.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 27 2014, 3:45pm

Post #13 of 38 (2332 views)
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Not quite the same thing. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that either Tom Bombadil or Goldberry could be considered to be an Elf.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 27 2014, 6:46pm

Post #14 of 38 (2304 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

That's super helpful.

Does Tolkien ever state how Pengolodh's writings were passed down? He's clear about the origin of LotR (Red Book of Westermarch) and about the Silmarillion. We understand the editorial point of view for those. What about Pengolodh? Were they writings saved from the fall of Gondolin? Writings on Tol Eressėa that came to Nśmenor?

I'll have to get my hands on some issues of Vinyar Tengwar.

TolkienBlog.com


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 27 2014, 11:29pm

Post #15 of 38 (2324 views)
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FART [In reply to] Can't Post

The Federation of Ainur, Refusers and Teleri. (A federation is pretty much the same thing as a union no?)

Their anthem is "Sol-lol-lolly-darity Forever."



HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 28 2014, 2:25am

Post #16 of 38 (2304 views)
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Aule and Yavanna [In reply to] Can't Post

I always bought into the theory that Bombadil and Goldberry were the incarnation of Aule and Yavanna, although I know there are a lot of holes in this theory. Nevertheless, I do think Bombadil and Goldberry were Maiar. If they are not Valar in disguise, then they are likely anomalies, many of which abound in Tolkien's legendarium.

In the Silmarillion, in the lay "Of Beren and Luthien," Morgoth desires Luthien when she and Beren enter his throne room to retrieve a Silmaril. It would be interesting if Morgoth had somehow captured Luthien. Would she then become his concubine? One can shudder at the thought, though.


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Jul 28 2014, 4:10am

Post #17 of 38 (2290 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

This I believe was purposely done by Tolkien to enrich the blood of one of the most famous unions of all: Luthien the fair and Beren son of Barahir.


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 28 2014, 4:31am

Post #18 of 38 (2289 views)
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I've never heard that theory [In reply to] Can't Post

It's an interesting one!

Yeah, I was actually thinking about Morgoth and Lśthien when I wrote my original post. It certainly seems pretty clear that that's what Morgoth is intending. It's one of the few examples of lust in Tolkien's writings.

TolkienBlog.com


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 28 2014, 1:02pm

Post #19 of 38 (2280 views)
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What is Tom Bombadil... [In reply to] Can't Post

This essay lays out several theories of Tom Bombadil's origins. There are some serious flaws in the Aule-Yavanna theory, but of them all, I think it is the one most consistent to Tolkien's writings. Otherwise (and this is not such a bad thing) is to just accept them as anomalies.


I highly recommend the essay.


squire
Half-elven


Jul 28 2014, 6:14pm

Post #20 of 38 (2272 views)
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The theory that wouldn't flush [In reply to] Can't Post

I am intrigued by the assertions, put forth twice so far in this thread, that a Bombadil=Aule/Goldberry=Yavanna identity has "flaws", but is nevertheless still very attractive to some fans. Gene Hargrove, the original author of this theory, clearly has a lot to answer for.

An addendum to your link just given is this one from 2012, in which the author Steuard Jensen addresses the problem in full. Like him I agree that the utter absurdity of the argument lies not in the mismatch of "powers" or "origin", since Bombadil's and Goldberry's powers and origins are so vague. Rather the decisive factor should be, and is, the mismatch of personalities. Neither Bombadil nor Goldberry show any substantial interest in the primary demiurgic domains of those two Valar (or indeed any of the Valar): Tom is not a craftsman, but a spirit of a particular landscape; Goldberry is not a gardener but a spirit of a particular waterscape.



squire online:
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 28 2014, 6:49pm

Post #21 of 38 (2265 views)
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Where to fit Bombadil/Goldberry in ME universe? [In reply to] Can't Post

As I acknowledge above, the Aule-Yavanna theory is flawed. Its one attraction is that it is one way to fit Bombadil and Goldberry into the extant ME "universe" without making up new beings. Tolkien pretty much details all of the sentient beings in ME, but there is no category for Tom and Goldberry.


They could be Maia, and this would fit Goldberry more so than Tom, but they are never described as Maia in the legendarium. The essay also points out flaws in that theory (also in other theories such as Bombadil is Illuvatar).


I've argued that they could be just be accepted as anomalies in the ME universe. Tolkien has a few: were worms, watcher in the water, stone giants and Ungoliant. Maybe Iarwain Ben-adar and the River Daughter fall in among those mysteries. I have no problem accepting that; indeed, we still have many mysteries in the "real" world and that is what makes life so fascinating....


squire
Half-elven


Jul 28 2014, 7:09pm

Post #22 of 38 (2286 views)
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I'm with you on the anomalies [In reply to] Can't Post

I find the idea that there is a "ME universe" along the lines of the "Marvel universe" and the "Star Wars universe" rather off-putting. Mostly because the term, with its commercial intonation and its up to date but inaccurate shorthand for Middle-earth (why not the M-e universe?) seems to inspire a demand for 'canon' yes-or-no answers, and for everything 'fitting in without making up new beings'.

Tolkien, for all his own admitted weakness for thinking at times of his world as a "game", was not writing a comic book franchise nor making a space-opera film series. He was exploring the nature of mythology by creatively mimicking one. He deeply believed that mysteries and "unexplored vistas" are what makes mythologies interesting. They are anything but neat and systematic, no matter what the scholars and classifiers of the last century or so would like us to believe.

The mysteries of the real world, as you put it, are indeed fascinating but are theoretically solvable. The mysteries of a mythology, reflecting the mysteries of mankind's narrative creativity, are not - or shouldn't be. As far as I know, Tolkien admitted he hadn't thought through who or what Tom Bombadil was when he wrote the character into his story, and he steadfastly refused to do so after the fact, cherishing the resulting enigma for its own sake.



squire online:
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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 12:33am

Post #23 of 38 (2257 views)
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Yuck [In reply to] Can't Post

Just what kind of child, or race of beings, would Morgoth and Luthien have spawned? Not a pretty thought.


Meneldor
Valinor


Jul 29 2014, 2:03am

Post #24 of 38 (2245 views)
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I hope they take after their mother. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 29 2014, 4:41am

Post #25 of 38 (2246 views)
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Well said [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it does make the most sense to chalk Bombadil and Goldberry up as anomalies.

Tolkien actually did describe Tom as "the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside." This is in Letter 19, which was written in 1937. I believe this was before he had even begun to write LotR, so I'm not sure if that explanation really holds water.

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