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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 27 2014, 10:20pm
Post #1 of 48
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How can Bard be this great war leader after being a bargeman?
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E.g., re the "Kingdom of Heaven" the main character Balian - one of the criticisms at the time - or sniggers - was basically this character had been a blacksmith, for a while evidently, and with like 30 seconds of practice he vaults into being a great war strategist and fighter (tho it turns out in the director's cut Balian is a former soldier which wasn't in the TE).
So Bard has been 1) poling a boat, evidently for a while; and 2) probably hunts to feed his family, so I completely accept he's a great archer. And probably everyone in ME has some sword and knife skills, more or less.
But he's not like the dwarves or Mirkwood elves, where fighting is a regular part of existence; nor was he rich, where probably the rich send their sons off to train. And re the WETA books the guards of Laketown seem more like thugs of the Master than anything so doesn't seem like a lot of training there.
I know to suspend disbelief re movies, but Bilbo has been using Sting more than Bard has been using a sword. Tho it's just a clip - but still - I hope there is something that is brought out that makes Bard's sword-fighting plausible if he is going to do a lot of it. Because as far as I know re fighting with a weapon it's practice, practice, practice. 
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JamesPaganini
Rivendell
Jul 27 2014, 10:22pm
Post #2 of 48
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He kills Smaug.
Not all those who wander are Lost
Darkness must pass. A new day will come and when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 27 2014, 10:26pm
Post #3 of 48
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... he will be the natural leader after killing Smaug and having been the "protector of the common folk" for years, and the one who foreshadowed the doom of the town.
And regarding the fighting, life in Lake-town probably is no cakewalk... Even if there are no Orcs. Some might even be trained in sword fighting for times of need. Nothing unnatural in medieval times either.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 27 2014, 10:34pm
Post #4 of 48
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He probably would have had a lot of practice
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I would imagine that in the type of community that he was living in, men would learn to fight from an early age to defend themselves and their families. It looked as though there were some shifty characters, up to no good, in Laketown. I don't think someone who appeared weak would survive very long in the Laketown environment, and Bard certainly doesn't look or behave like a weakling.
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 27 2014, 10:42pm
Post #5 of 48
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That brings up another point...
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Does Bard even have a sword? I don't recall seeing him carrying one in DOS.
A battlefield is no place for an archer without skills in swordfighting, so I wonder if the lack of Bard having a sword is indicative of him assuming some sort of strategic place during the battle from where he can use his bow?
Confusion! 
The Hobbit Soundtracks - Being an online archive of information concerning Howard Shore's score for The Hobbit films.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 27 2014, 10:59pm
Post #6 of 48
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Two things: 1 - he has all those other weapons, crude as they may be, and 2 - he's apparently got some experience at smuggling. So suspend your disbelief just a little bit longer, there's probably alot about Bard that we haven't learned yet.
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Rochallor
Registered User
Jul 27 2014, 11:04pm
Post #7 of 48
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Even in the original text by professor Tolkien, the "idealization" of Bard being the leader after the Master's departure isn't clarified enough, I mean, how it happens in fact. So I think the Jackson/Boyens/Walsh/Del Toro script will give us an additional light over the subject.
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deskp
Lorien
Jul 27 2014, 11:14pm
Post #8 of 48
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He got Girion's sword.
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 27 2014, 11:17pm
Post #9 of 48
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I don't recall  
The Hobbit Soundtracks - Being an online archive of information concerning Howard Shore's score for The Hobbit films.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 27 2014, 11:23pm
Post #10 of 48
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Even in the book it is unclear that Bard is part of the regular soldiery/city guard of Lake-town. Perhaps he is a member of a town militia and is only called to action during a civic emergency. When Bard is first introduced he is merely a grim-voiced fellow of Lake-town; nothing is mentioned about his being a guard. However, he immediately takes charge, ordering the bridges to be cut and issuing the call to arms. When the dragon attacks, Bard leads a company of archers, but that could be as a militiaman and not as a regular soldier.
As for the final film, we can only guess until it is released.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 27 2014, 11:26pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 27 2014, 11:32pm
Post #11 of 48
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And if you are a bargeman on a river - well, come to think of it, all kinds of wanderers might want to take on a loan bargeman - thanks Glorfindela! That helped!
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 27 2014, 11:39pm
Post #12 of 48
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But I think Glorfindela makes a great point
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And thinking about some other books I've read about real-life fishing towns - they seem to be rough-and-tumble places. I just got stuck on the remarks re Kingdom of Heaven from way back - because in that movie it's true, even if a blacksmith is tough, in that film there is some war strategy, and I wouldn't think the average blacksmith would think along those lines.
I was just flinching in case PJ was heading down that path, because that kind of "instant warrior" morph always seems to get targeted. Even Bilbo by now we can assume has picked up some swordplay, just living with the dwarves.
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jul 28 2014, 12:14am
Post #15 of 48
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Kingdom of Heaven was butchered in the editing room...
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I know you acknowledged the Director's Cut in your original post, but I still hate to see that example used. Balian was a soldier and an engineer in the only version of that film that matters.
Not trying to be an irritant. It's just a pet peeve of mine.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Faleel
Rohan
Jul 28 2014, 1:12am
Post #16 of 48
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The same way a shepherd boy can become a warrior king.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 28 2014, 1:56am
Post #17 of 48
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agree with some posters above here
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There are a number of reasons why Bard would know how to use a sword, some of which have been outlined above.
1. A militia type reserve army. There's a good bet that Laketown has had its fair share of run-ins with malcontents, illicit traders and the like. A town that doesn't know how to defend itself would be a sitting duck for an attack (pardon the lake pun). Esgaroth has been around for a while- at least we know it was thriving and alive during Thror's reign so many years before. So I have a feeling that part of the reason the weaponry was locked up was BECAUSE the men of the town knew how to use them, as per a militia called to arms only at need.
2. Bard may have found ways to teach himself secretly. He has a whole arsenal of makeshift weapons, and though he's the leader of the civil unrest Alfrid mentions, doubtless there are others among the people who tire of the corruption as well. Perhaps one of them has had sword training in the past, or lived in a former place before coming to live in Esgaroth, and was able to teach him. Or he could have learned from traders outside of Esgaroth, but didn't sneak in weapons because his barges were inspected and knew he would be caught.
3. Because of Bard's lineage, the skills needed, even if broomsticks or whatever were used in their place, may have been passed down through the generations. We know Girion died, but not all of the men of Dale did-they fled to Esgaroth after the original attack (else how would anyone else know what Smaug did to Dale?). His ancestor's mother (Girion's wife) undoubtedly either taught her child herself (if she knew how) or asked a trusted friend to teach, and the skills got passed down father to son using whatever was handy and the right length for a sword.
4. Another thought- the Master isn't almost 200 years old (obviously). He may have only in the last decade or so come to power (depending on how old he is in relation to Bard). Up until then, the former masters may have allowed people to own weapons, and it may have been easier than we realize to find someone who still remembered how to use them who could teach Bard.
There's a number of ways he could have learned.
And regarding blacksmiths (as outlined in your KoH reference), who do you think makes the swords? A blacksmith would have need to know exactly how to use one in order to make one with the proper balance, the proper length, the proper weight for the user, etc. They would need to know every aspect of a sword, from the types of guards to the weight of the pommel in relation to the blade (balance), to placing the furrow in the middle of the blade to drain the blood, to making sure grips were the right hand length (one hand, hand and a half, two handed) and the grooves in the grip shaped for the average hand size of wielders of that particular weight and length, to make sure the blade was sharpened properly and the right width to yield the type of cut desired, etc.
So it's not surprising to me at ALL that a blacksmith would need to have at least a rudimentary, if not intermediate, skill with a blade simply to do their job and do it well. And can you honestly imagine someone forging swords and the like day in and day out and never ONCE give in to the temptation to "test it out"? 
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 28 2014, 2:05am
Post #18 of 48
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I'm tired (and let's face it, happy since I had been complaining re the trailer, so the Monday release is grand ). Was up late actually re-watching DOS. 
But I actually always thought KOH is vastly underrated, w. some stellar performances (love Eva Green for one, Ghassan Massoud, Jeremy Irons....) and amazing visuals and lines. Plus I really respect the director saying point-blank the TE was never the release he wanted - that was refreshing.
So I know of some other examples, they are just not in my higher brain at the moment.  One thing tho is MF's wonderful IMO performance when he defends Thorin in AUJ and with the goblin, he's believably shaky and awkward with a sword, and by DOS he's a lot more comfortable with Sting, obviously. Nice touch.
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happydood
The Shire
Jul 28 2014, 2:09am
Post #19 of 48
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He kills Smaug.
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MirielCelebel
Rivendell
Jul 28 2014, 2:45am
Post #20 of 48
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Will Turner for Pirates was the same way; they become self-taught. Bard is like today's version of a prepper. They prepare for the worst, even if that means revolution. They teach themselves how to fight in order to prepare for this moment.
Not to mention, Bard is related to Girion, Lord of Dale, maybe warrior just runs in his blood and comes naturally :)
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jul 28 2014, 2:46am
Post #21 of 48
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"Blood groove" (pardon the tangent)
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I don't know who first came up with the term "blood groove", but it has been widely debunked among students of swords. The proper term is fuller. It's purpose is to lighten the blade by removing metal from places where the extra material does little to add to the strength of the blade. A fuller has nothing to do with the flow of blood from a wound. Unless something goes very wrong, the blade will be removed from the wound long before it interferes with the letting of blood.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Jul 28 2014, 3:38am
Post #22 of 48
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A blacksmith does not make a commander
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I believe the main question voiced concerning Bloom's character Balian is not his skill with a blade. As you rightly point out, much of the smith's craft is dependent upon an intimate familiarity with his deadly products.
Rather, the surprising turn taken in the theatrical edition of Kingdom of Heaven's plot is Balian's ability to plan complex defensive tactics during the siege of Jerusalem and serve as a skilled cavalry commander in the skirmish outside of Kerak. Neither of these things would have been in the skill set of a peasant blacksmith, no matter how skilled he had become at his craft or how familiar he had become with his weapons.
The story only makes sense under the Extended Edition's revelation that Balian had been a siege engineer in previous wars. Presumably he honed his skill set in those engagements.
All that said, I agree with everything you say about the plausibility of Bard's skill as both a warrior and a commander.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jul 28 2014, 3:53am
Post #23 of 48
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I was trying not to come off grouchy, but - admittedly - I'm not always successful at that.
I have a bad habit of being overly protective of movies I love (which is a bit silly, I know) - and my support of KoH always seems like an uphill battle, given the tepid reaction of the Theatrical Release.
Obviously, I've no need of that here though. Glad to hear you like it so much. It's one of my favorites - and definitely the textbook example of a Director's Cut wiping the floor with the Theatrical. So much texture and story meat is left by the wayside in the original.
I agree that the performances are phenomenal. I also want to throw out a mention for Alexander Siddig, who plays the Muslim that Balian meets in the desert (and later on the battlefield). His presence really stuck out to me when I first saw the film and I've loved his work ever since. I'm really happy to see that he's just been cast in the next season of Game of Thrones.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Jul 28 2014, 3:57am
Post #24 of 48
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I loved his performance in KoH. I'm curious to see what direction he takes Prince Doran!
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Jul 28 2014, 4:13am
Post #25 of 48
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I think he would have been capable
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I don't think someone who appeared weak would survive very long in the Laketown environment, and Bard certainly doesn't look or behave like a weakling.
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