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vexx801
Rivendell
Jul 27 2014, 6:58pm
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Who is Celebrimbor?
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The new trailer for the Shadows of Mordor game has very much peaked my interest. I realize its likely a departure from Tolkien, but who is Celebrimbor, exactly? What do we know about him? Is he in the Appendices? Mentioned in LotR? Is he in Unfinished Tales? The Silmarillion?
Any thoughts would be appreciated. 
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 27 2014, 7:02pm
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... the most important information: He did forge most of the great Rings of Power, the Seven (Dwarves), the Nine (Men) and (secretely) the Three (Elves).
Here is the WIki article on him: Click!
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 27 2014, 7:13pm
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To quote from Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth:
CELEMBRIMBOR (S.: 'silver-fist, Hand of Silver') (FA- SA 1697) Noldorin Elf of the House of Feanor, son of Curufin. After the death of Finrod he repudiated the deeds of his House and remained in Nargothrond.
In the Second Age Celembrimbor remained in Middle-earth and became lord of Eregion and the greatest craftsman of that land. Yet in the end his skill betrayed him, for he joined with the disguised Sauron to make the Rings of Power; Celembrimbor was the sole forger of the Three Rings. When Sauron forged the One Ring, Celembrimbor perceived his treatery, hid the Three Rings, and prepared for war. He was slain when Eregion was overrun during the War of the Elves and Sauron.
The Quenya form of his name was Telperinquar.
Celembrimbor is mentioned a number of times throughout The Lord of the Rings and in The Silmarillion.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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PhantomS
Rohan
Jul 28 2014, 1:19pm
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as others have said, he was the chief Ring-maker among the Noldorin Elves who lived in Hollin next to Khazad-dum. He is the grandson of none other than the mighty Feanor, maker of the Palantri and the Silmarils and was said to have inherited a lot of that talent, since his father Curufin was also an expert at craft. Being keen to learn new craft he headed an Elven settlement of Noldorin Elves that lived alongside the West-Gate of Moria, separate from Gil-galad in Lindon and Elrond in Imladris.
He was said to have known Galadriel after the Fall of Gondolin and as a result gave her the Ring of Adamant, or Nenya directly. He was also said to be a good friend with Durin III, King of the Longbeards and gave him his Ring of Power directly as well (although it was also tainted unlike the Three Elven Rings as Sauron had helped make them). Sadly he was duped by Sauron in a fair disguise (Annatar the Gift Giver) and his smiths craved to learn the ring-lore Sauron genuinely had. Thus he hlped them make the Nine and Seven, but Celebrimbor made the Three on his own. Sauron was angered by this and raided Eregion/Hollin, killing Celebrimbor and annihilating the land (Legolas says only the stones remember what used to be there). Sauron did not find the Three however and thus his plans to control the Elves were thwarted. With the last descendant of Feanor gone, it's likely his arts were also lost to Middle Earth apart from what remained, namely the Palantri.
In some drafts Celebrimbor is also the maker of the Elfstone (Elessar) that Galadriel eventually gives to Aragorn, although some drafts have a Gondolin smith called Ernedhil as the maker.
he is most certainly canon, the whole shebang with the Rings was partly due to him.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 29 2014, 10:16pm
Post #5 of 20
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In some drafts Celebrimbor is also the maker of the Elfstone (Elessar) that Galadriel eventually gives to Aragorn, although some drafts have a Gondolin smith called Ernedhil as the maker.
he is most certainly canon, the whole shebang with the Rings was partly due to him.
Pedantic distinction alert: in both draft ideas Celebrimbor is a maker [or 'the' maker] of an Elessar stone or stones. In other words:
Draft text I The Elessar [the longer version]
Enerdhil made the first and the 'second' was only the first stone returned -- or Enerdhil made the first but Celebrimbor of Gondolin and later of Eregion made the second stone -- if in fact there was a second stone. But both of these tales are purposely internally 'true' [they are both part of the larger Red Book of Westmarch] and are not competing draft texts in my opinion.
Draft text II [written on the same page, at the end of the longer version. This is a competing draft text]
Celebrimbor made the first stone in Gondolin -- that passed away -- and Celebrimbor made the second one in Eregion.
But When Tolkien later decides that Celebrimbor is a Feanorean, and publishes this in the revised second edition of The Lord of the Rings, did he also imagine that Celebrimbor had been a smith in Gondolin?
My guess is no.
And if I am correct, when we then turn back to The Elessar tale, one wonders if Enerdhil 'returned' in a sense; or in this case, he didn't have to, as, in the first version, which is the more complete version in any case... Enerdhil is already [or still] there as the maker of the first stone... which is only possibly the only stone according to this draft.
So it's all very clear
And that's not even going into a late text where Tolkien appears to forget he had published Celebrimbor as a Feanorean in the second edition!
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Jul 30 2014, 4:12am
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The Elessar has a lot more power in these drafts. Isn't the flourishing of the Havens of Sirion attributed to the Elessar, rather than to the Silmaril as it is elsewhere? IMO, that complicates things even more, since it seems to impart a power to the stone that (apparently) doesn't exist in LotR.
TolkienBlog.com
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Wilros
The Shire
Jul 30 2014, 6:44pm
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Surprised to see no one mentioned Celebrimbor's other contribution that comes into the LOTR: the inscription on the Doors of Durin on the West entrance to Moria.
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Cari
Bree
Aug 1 2014, 5:20am
Post #8 of 20
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Are these drafts part of The History of Middle-earth or another book?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 1 2014, 12:34pm
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The Elessar tale can be found in Unfinished Tales [in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn section], and what I am calling 'draft II' is the shorter description given directly after it, where Tolkien appears to replace Enerdhil. This shorter description would appear to make the earlier version a rejected idea, but in any case both texts were written before Celebrimbor had certainly become a Feanorean in Tolkien's imagination...
... I mean as far as I know; although maybe it's a case of JRRT changing his mind or something.
The Doors of Moria do include the Star of Feanor, and we know Celebrimbor was involved in making these Doors (this much was published before the following two texts were written). But when we jump to texts like Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, as first written [see Unfinished Tales again], and The Elessar, Celebrimbor is a smith of Gondolin.
Celebrimbor was certainly made a Feanorean by the addition to the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, published in the 1960s, thus after both these other texts were first written -- and so I think this raises the question of whether or not Tolkien 'still' imagined this characters as being in Gondolin at any point.
The Tolkien Gateway currently reads...
After the sack of Nargothrond, Celebrimbor lived for a time in Gondolin, where he was great jewel smith for King Turgon. He may have created the Elessar of Eärendil, though other accounts name Enerdhil as the Master Jewelsmith and creator of the Elfstone, who perhaps taught Celebrimbor this art.
... but this is the sort of conflation [in my opinion] that one can find at these and other sites.
In other words [again as far as I know] we do not really know this [meaning the Gateway description]. As I see things, someone other than Tolkien is writing internal 'history' here, in seeming effort to work some version of the Elessar text into the story of Celebrimbor the Feanorean.
And not only that, but this brief description of The Elessar tale is, to my mind , simplifying both the internal and external details here: because what we really have is [draft text I] a tale which includes two internal possibilities [both possibilities being part of the Red Book of Westmarch, so to speak] versus [draft text II] a second version that illustrates an external revision to the first [Tolkien changing his mind about Enerdhil being a maker of the Elessar].
Granted I understand the desire to have an internal story that employs as much of Tolkien as possible, but 
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 1 2014, 12:46pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 1 2014, 1:01pm
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And not only that, but this brief description of The Elessar tale is, to my mind, simplifying both the internal and external details here:
Although to be fair [fairer], the Gateway article references the Elessar of Earendil, and it's true that with respect to the 'first' stone, Tolkien replaced Enerdhil with Celebrimbor in 'draft II'.
But still its phrasing of 'other accounts' seems to treat an external revision as an internal variation, or at least remains vague about this; when the internal variation is really: Enerdhil made the Elessar and it returned to Galadriel through Olorin... or it did not return, and Celebrimbor made the second stone for Galadriel.
Again it's confusing but not impossible. Unless I've confused it... then maybe it is
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 1 2014, 1:02pm)
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Aug 2 2014, 5:09am
Post #11 of 20
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Celebrimbor in Gondolin doesn't hold water IMO
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It confuses me that Celebrimbor would have ever lived in Gondolin--at least as long as he was seen as a Fëanorian. Turgon certainly kept his distance from the Fëanorians, even forbidding Aredhel from visiting them.
Even before Tolkien saw Celebrimbor as a Fëanorian, it seems odd that he would have gotten to Gondolin after the sack of Nargothrond. Wasn't Gondolin even more shut off after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad? Certainly by the time Dior was killed, Turgon wasn't letting anyone in or out. It seems unlikely that Turgon would let in a group of people from Nargothrond.
TolkienBlog.com
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 2 2014, 3:17pm
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The Tolkien Gateway article here -- at least this section of it -- is, in my opinion, a tale that Tolkien never wrote. It's taking something from one 'phase' about Celebrimbor (he was a Smith of Gondolin: UT), and mixing it with what JRRT ultimately published about him (he was a Feanorean: ROTK second edition).
It's interesting to note Christopher Tolkien's wording here, regarding Celebrimbor: '[He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor...' CJRT, commentary, Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn
And...
'Celebrimbor is here again a jewel smith of Gondolin rather than one of the Feanoreans' CJRT, commentary, The Elessar
Anyway I think I checked the draft versions of LOTR too here... if I recall correctly anyway... because of the Star of Feanor being on the Doors of Moria... but I have a dim memory of Celebrimbor not being noted as a Feanorean even in the drafts -- in other words, I'm not sure it's noted either way, and that much remains vague.
If I missed something there however, someone let me know.
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Cari
Bree
Aug 2 2014, 5:35pm
Post #13 of 20
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Thanks ^.^ I just wanted to know what book those drafts were part of so I could read them, I find the Elfstone rather interesting.
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Aug 2 2014, 10:44pm
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I'd be surprised if it was a later addition
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Tolkien didn't make any changes to his illustrations in the later editions, as far as I understand it. Of course, I know very little of the changes to the editions, so I'm far from an authority.
TolkienBlog.com
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 3 2014, 2:26pm
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I was probably unclear there: I meant since the star occurs in the first edition illustration, I checked the drafts [written descriptions] to see if Tolkien made any references to Celebrimbor's history...
... which would [if anything exists] precede both the texts that make him a Smith of Gondolin [UT] -- which itself precedes the 'Feanorean' addition in the 1960s.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 4 2014, 12:43pm
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As for The History of The Lord of the Rings [the draft history of the book], I checked again and the name Celebrimbor barely appears. He is Celebrimbor of Hollin, and made the signs upon the Doors of Moria.
In an early description of the Moria doors we had 'three stars with many rays' and they are said to be [part of?] the star-tokens of the High-elves. When this changed to a single star with many rays, Legolas refers to the Tree of the High Elves however, and Gandalf does not refer to the Star of the House of Feanor in this draft, as he does in the final version as published.
With respect to the illustration, Taum Santoski provides the explanation that two stars were erased, leaving only the one star, and Tolkien seemingly failed to notice this change when he later wrote that Gandalf muttered the word mellon and 'the three stars shone out briefly.'
We know that Gandalf's reference to Feanor's Star comes in at some point before publication of course, but I don't know when.
And we can see from the draft chapters for Galadriel, when Tolkien was working out the history of the Rings of Power, and especially that of the Three, he at least considered at one point that the Three were made in the remote ages of Valinor and attributed to Feanor.
On a page where 'the final conception of the relation of the Rings of Power to Sauron' emerged -- at least in the essential that they were made by Elven-smiths under the guidance of Sauron, but Sauron made the One in secret to govern the rest -- on this page the Rings are generally said to be made by the Elven-smiths, and Celebrimbor is not referred to here, specifically.
So while we have the drafts of The Lord of the Rings, and thus various early ideas to note, we don't always know when the ultimate idea was added. At least I don't here; and of course that's without consulting the Silmarillion related texts...
... and without checking the drafts for the Appendices [yet].
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 4 2014, 12:53pm)
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Aug 5 2014, 3:21am
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I've read The History of The Lord of the Rings but I don't remember any reference to the Three Rings being made by Fëanor. Very interesting!
One thing I always found kind of unusual about LotR is that Tolkien often inserted older names into the book with seemingly little reference to previous works (Legolas, whose name was used in "The Tale of Gondolin," comes to mind).
Of course, this wasn't the case with Celebrimbor (I'm pretty sure he didn't pre-date LotR). I suppose Tolkien did the reverse in Celebrimbor's case--back dating.
TolkienBlog.com
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 5 2014, 11:41am
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I look pretty young, but I'm just back-dated, yeah.
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It's easy for us to forget that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, and then The Lord of the Rings as its sequel, he did not imagine the pair as direct continuations of the Silmarillion legendarium. He enjoyed using his Sil tales, long in existence but judged unpublishable, to give the more recent (and publishable) stories the mythic depth he so cherished; thus as you say, he inserted Gondolin, Elrond, balrogs, Sauron, Glorfindel, Legolas or what have you into his stories of the hobbits and the Ring. And of course as LotR developed he introduced some notable new beings whose story demanded that they would have been present in the events that the Silmarillion covered: Galadriel, Celebrimbor, the Ents, Gandalf, etc.
After he finished LotR, he rewrote it to make it clear that it was all one gigantic story, with entire Ages devoted to one or the other of the cycles, and in the same years (late 1940s) he went back and rewrote the Silmarillion in places to retrofit Galadriel and the others where they had never been heard of before (as we know from reading the HoME texts of the 1920s-30s).
Tolkien did such a good job that most readers assume the entire corpus was conceived by a mastermind from the beginning, even if it was published 'out of order'. But the mastermind was only able to see all the possibilities in retrospect, and thanks to Christopher Tolkien the occasional slip can still be found and discussed with pleasure by those who like literary detective work!
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 6 2014, 11:07am
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squire gets points for a recherhe who reference : ) //
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aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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