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Children of Hurin Chapter Discussion: The Death of Turin
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Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 26 2014, 3:39am

Post #1 of 39 (2541 views)
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Children of Hurin Chapter Discussion: The Death of Turin Can't Post

Welcome all! Cool


Summer does keep us all busy - but here at last we close out the story of Turin.
The chapter title: just a wee bit spoilery. We come at last to the end of the Children of Hurin, and ...well, it isn't entirely happy. This first set of points is about Turin's death itself.



** Glancing behind the 'set' curtains - Turin is helpfully (for the plot) out of commission just when he may have been able to intervene and just perhaps save Niniel; at the very least, add some human voice to the Dragon's machinations. To touch on that black swoon that Glaurung employs - part of the dragon's plan, collateral effect or the author's convenient answer to Romeo and Juliet?


**Turin says to Gurthang, "Yours is the victory." Considering Gurthang's origins - which like Rembrethil, I should love to read more of - is this another subtle example that out of all evil shall come unintended good? The spirit of jealous Eol, furthering the cause of Men...I cannot think that was in any way his purpose!



**Turin returns, with one hand bandage-wrapped - a rather Lazarus sort of enchantment, it must seem to the people, as they presume his death without question. He did rise from a sort-of death I suppose...is there a direct Scriptural corollary here or just plot-at-work (or pure storytelling, for that matter?)



**Gurthang completes his destiny, and finishes the blood he has tasted with the life of Turin. Turin also says to Gurthang, in a seeming contradiction: "What lord or loyalty do you know, save the hand that wields you? From no blood will you shrink." Considering his is the hand that wields the blade and is its lord in that moment, its interesting that Gurthang still regards Beleg as 'my master'. Do you see contradiction there - or it is all a symbol or statement of how much control (or lack of) Turin has over his fate?




The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 26 2014, 3:45am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 26 2014, 3:42am

Post #2 of 39 (2415 views)
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More on Finduilas and Brandir [In reply to] Can't Post

Here at the end, let's discuss their significance.


**The group madness CuriousG spoke about in the last chapter further descends, as Turin strikes down Brandir. Turin's listing of Brandir's deeds: what do you think of his assessment? Is one man or the other closer to truth, or are they both hopelessly colored by their experiences and the shared and jealous love of Niniel? Is Brandir almost more 'human' and flawed than Turin in this last moment?




**I want to touch again on Finduilas *still* in the story: do you get the feeling that when he calls upon her counsel, at the Crossings, the Twelve Huntsmen materialize? If so, I wonder if the words of Mablung are her epitaph, spoken through the Elf: "I also have been meshed with the doom of the Children of Hurin..."
What other counsel do you think comes from Mablung, that may have been inspired by the spirit (as the writing suggests) of Finduilas? Or do you see that part differently?


**To quote from last chapter:
There's a repeated connection between them, and I'm not sure how much we're supposed to read into it, unless Finduilas is just a harbinger of fate, like Death dressed in black with a sickle. (CuriousG)


The Twelve Huntsmen, so carefully numbered and seemingly called upon at Finduilas' grave, strike me forcefully as the Twelve Horsemen. A bit of an apocalyptic flavor? More harbingers of fate, in the garb of the Firstborn? Does the mere fact that it is the calling out of Findulias' name that seems to bring such portent and such Horatio-like sentiments from Mablung seem to import her with a sort of beyond-the-grave magic still extant in Turin's life?




The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 26 2014, 3:44am

Post #3 of 39 (2431 views)
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Morwen and Hurin, and other endings [In reply to] Can't Post

At the end of all things...


**The sad epitaph of the parents of these children at the standing stone (that would become Tol Morwen after the loss of Beleriand). What do you feel for them, in this section of the tale? Can Morwen be forgiven, or is that enduring pride that JRRT mentions still a beacon for what came before? What do you think of how Hurin answers (or doesn't) answer her question: "How did she find him?"


**More on the idea of Turin as the sacrifice for Men...in the timeline, it seems that the four years between the pool if Ivrin where the cousins almost cross paths, and the Blacksword's trail draws the Orcs from Tuor and Voronwe see another overlap in another way: the times that the two cousins are courting their loves. Here the paths diverge, as one will be eternally happy and one will end in disaster. I see the bloody mess of Hurin's family here as the bait for the shark, as it were, that is Morgoth. Turin's revelation to Morgoth by the wearing of the Helm of Dor-Lomin likely allows Tuor and Idril to peacefully fall in love in Gondolin! Thoughts?


**Just to contemplate and UUT speculate - we read that no one knows where Teiglin bore Niniel. Looking at the map, I wonder if:

1. her body could have come to rest in the curves of the river in Brethil (it *is* a lovely place, you know. Just sayin'.)
2. If not, could it have been enmeshed in the Fens of Sirion?
3. Or do you think JRRT envisioned her as being swept out past the mouths of Sirion and to the sea? In any case, if she was in any other location, she would become part of the sea bed after the War of Wrath - in an eerily traceable way, if one superimposes the map of Beleriand onto the later map of the North-west of Middle-earth...


Thoughts? Any and all are welcome. CoolSmile




The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 26 2014, 3:46am)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jul 26 2014, 3:55pm

Post #4 of 39 (2396 views)
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I'm back for a minute! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have the nieces and nephews (4 of them) at my house, so I've been a wee bit busy, but I'll try to clack out a few answers:

Well, with all that slime and filth building up on a dragon (I doubt he bathed, or even could bathe) I'd imagine it was a fairly noxious smell of decay and other things I don't care to think of. It might have been a useful dragon-slayer repellent. All this makes me think.... with all that wonderfully smelly stuff, how did Smaug smell anything else besides his own stench? with a nose that keen, how could he not!?Crazy

Well, if we see Turin's defeat of Glaurung as his intended fate, then we could say that Turin 'won', in that sense. I don't know, but maybe Morgoth had a bit of foresight and he saw the potential in Hurin's family, so he tried to destroy it. Why else take the time to manipulate their lives? I can't see this Evil Overlord taking notice of one small family, to the neglect of the broader view of the war. Maybe this is where Morgoth has Sauron beat; he took notice of the details that led to Sauron's fall? I think that this is a bit of evil business, combined with Morgoth's sadistic pleasure. So maybe Glaurung knew Turin ws his bane, thus his motivated interference with the CoH, and he is admitting failure in his personal war with them? Or is he trying to torment him by saying 'You won, but look at the cost.'

I never thought of that, but who would really think that Turin could defeat the dragon? I see him, a gaunt, pale figure coming from the mist, and the people unsure of who he is, or if he is really alive. (A ghost!)

Well, Gurthang is an interesting study. It seems sad for Beleg, but kills Turin. It appears to not have any instinct of self-preservation the Ring has (Not leaving until it has a new master), so maybe it is a psychopathic killer? Maybe it senses Turin has no self-control, so it reasons that he cannot control it, thus it rejects Turin as its master? I also like to ponder the angle that teh sword learned 'good' from Beleg, and maybe, as it was employed in doing good, it tried to rehabilitate. So many things to ponder, but I haven't the time.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Jul 26 2014, 11:03pm

Post #5 of 39 (2383 views)
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Good point on the Romeo and Juliet [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it was Tolkien's only solution to what would have been a very inappropiate situation for him. I always thought he was very daring to try it at all. Especially for someone so conservative!


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 27 2014, 8:32pm

Post #6 of 39 (2379 views)
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Two stories about choices [In reply to] Can't Post

It struck me today that both CoH and LOTR could be seen as being stories about choices. LOTR seems a lot more positive: the admirable characters tend to make the right choices: they either live to see these bear fruit, or at least (Théoden) die satisfied they did the right thing. Denethor is the meaningful exception (Boromir falls into either camp: makes wrong decision, dies making amends). Plenty of characters make decisions that don't work out as they expected, but these tend to fit into a broader, beneficial pattern.

In CoH, it's more negative: people make decisions which mostly backfire, and if there is a broader pattern it's harder to see it as a beneficial one.

Various theories:
CoH is true to its gloomy Norse mythic models : LOTR is true to its author's optimism.

A biographical theory: young Mr. Tolkien, just recently back from the war and the only survivor of his group of friends begins work on Turin. A young man surviving for a time against stacked odds, but doomed whatever he does might be an understandable theme.

Or, of course; all of them at once, or something else entirely!

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 27 2014, 8:38pm

Post #7 of 39 (2375 views)
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Talking swords [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think the sword literally talks (eg if Dorlas were still lurking around, he'd hear these lines) or dies it "talk" because we're seeing Turin's state of mind?

I think it's left to the reader, & it wouldn't be a very interesting distinction, perhaps, but for that bit about Beleg: it is contradictory, and maybe this suggests Turin's guilt-overloaded mind at work?

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 27 2014, 9:04pm

Post #8 of 39 (2370 views)
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Darned edit window :) / further idea about choices [In reply to] Can't Post

Re-reading material from the starter posts about Tuor, I was thinking that you'd get quite a different effect if Tuor's story and Turin's were presented in interlace (like the device by which LOTR divides into Frodo/Sam, and the various other shards of the Fellowship. Someone wrote an essay on that for a previous TAS Smile )

That's kinda what you were already suggesting, Brethil?

That could give an overall sense of things moving so that they come to a positive conclusion (Earendil's embassy to the Valar): something which is lost when CoH is presented as a standalone story (and which is hard enough to see in the Sil - for me at least - because of the scale).

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 28 2014, 4:40am

Post #9 of 39 (2360 views)
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Morwen and Hurin [In reply to] Can't Post

This is positively one of my most favorite passages in Tolkien's writings. The reunion (long hoped for) of Morwen and Hurin is so gut-wrenchingly sad. In some ways, it almost makes me wish that they didn't have to endure the emotions that came with the reunion, especially Hurin who lives on, unlike Morwen. I'm not sure which would be worse: knowing the last time they met was when they were young and full of life, or at the end of it when they have endured so much tragedy.

In regards to Hurin not answering Morwen, I really don't know what to think. Obviously, I think it's incredibly strong and noble of him to keep it all from her. At the same time, I don't think he says anything else to her. (I don't have my book with me to check.) I find that to be a little bit cruel.

I know I said above that I love this passage, but I also don't think it should have been included here. It's not actually a part of this story, and Tolkien finishes the proper story so wonderfully that to tack this on the end seems unfortunate. It's not a big deal, though, just a little niggle.

Latching onto your UUT, we don't actually know that Nienor dies. Perhaps she survived, was adopted by a little family a dwarves and eventually awakened by True Love's first kiss??


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 28 2014, 4:41am

Post #10 of 39 (2360 views)
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Talking sword [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like your idea that the sword isn't actually talking. I had never thought of it just being a representation of Turin's mind. Interesting idea!


Meneldor
Valinor


Jul 28 2014, 2:57pm

Post #11 of 39 (2350 views)
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So now, on top of all his other problems, [In reply to] Can't Post

Turin is hearing voices in his head telling him to off himself. Poor guy can't get a break. Frown


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 28 2014, 11:23pm

Post #12 of 39 (2331 views)
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Brandir at the end [In reply to] Can't Post

It's almost clumsy, or in-your-face, or Tolkien to have Turin angrily call Brandir "Club-foot" at this point. How much are we supposed to think of Sador? If Sador had played a greater influence on Turin, or if his influence had been less fleeting, would Turin have come to this point of pitiless murder? This is the same Turin who was described as inclined to pity as a boy.

There is the Oedipal idea that to grow up, a son must "kill" his father, either literally or figuratively, to become his own man. With Hurin as absentee father, was Turin killing the next closest candidate--Sador/Brandir? As with Finduilas, I'm not sure how much to read into this, but the connection is so obvious, I'm sure JRR was telling us to figure something out.

In the last chapter, when Brandir killed Dorlas, I felt rather neutral in their quick fight. Here I have a stronger sense of pity for Brandir: not necessarily likeable, but he's lost his throne and social status, lost Niniel, and seems all alone and ridiculed in the world. To have Turin finish him off feels wrong, especially since it's clearly not a fair fight.

The wife of Dorlas "shrilly" speaks out against Brandir and seems to seal his fate with Turin. It could have been anyone, but since she's connected to Dorlas, whom Brandir has just killed, is this justice and fate at work? Though it's not clear to me if Dorlas would have killed Brandir or just punched him. I tend to think that Dorlas was crazy enough to kill him, since they've all gone mad, but it's hard to be sure. If Brandir was striking out in self-defense, then again he seems wronged. To back up a little, he was the one who healed both Turin and Nienor in spite of his misgivings. He's not as thoroughly decent as Mablung, Beleg, and Sador, but he still comes off as one of the more moral people in the story. It says something that Gurthang cites his death in particular in saying he'll kill Turin.

Finduilas: there aren't any coincidences in this story, are there? Cry out to her, and the Twelve show up. But I'm not clear on the reference, since there's Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, not 12, or maybe there's more than one version? There are 12 Apostles. Now that makes one wonder if this is an allusion to them, and Turin is Judas the betrayer (I don't think of him as a Christ figure). Maybe 12 is just 12, or maybe there's more, just as I think Finduilas looms over the story in an ethereal, elusive way.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 28 2014, 11:44pm

Post #13 of 39 (2335 views)
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A wasted life [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Wiz's comment about World War I has me thinking that while the entire story is not meant to be an allegory of WWI (allegory? I wouldn't dare go there!), it's consistent with the general bitterness that prevailed in Europe after that war where lots of people died for no good reason. I wish there was something redemptive about Turin's story, but I don't really see it. I think it was all a senseless tragedy. And Nienor, for that matter, also had a senseless death with no silver lining.

While I generally find this chapter well-written, Turin's swoon seems like a plot contrivance so Nienor can show up and talk to the dragon without interference from Turin, and yes, this is Romeo & Juliet in a twisted sense.

What do we make of Gurthang, the talking sword? I think it was talking and wasn't just in Turin's mind, and if it has agency, what role did it play in the larger tale? It made Turin invincible, yet it was used to kill Beleg, which it regrets. So, it will cooperate in killing Turin, but it couldn't have turned aside when killing Beleg? I don't think it has so much self-control that it can dance around the forest, but I wonder if it's truly blood-thirsty and likes killing its masters as much as its masters' foes. I just don't trust that sword, and I'm glad it's broken. (Don't trust a sword? OK, that sounds paranoid.Smile) Why did Turin never talk with it before? Not that I'm sure how to make small talk with a sword, and there's probably a mythical limit on such things, such as Huan the Hound only getting to speak three times. Gurthang only gets to speak once.

Being made by Eol, I suspect Gurthang inherited its maker's dark mind, and it probably viewed Elves as more worthy owners of it than Men. After all, it wasn't like Beleg had used it for centuries, but it seemed to consider him a more legitimate master than Turin. Then again, it never betrayed Turin, so why the sudden spurt of independence now? Did killing Glaurung somehow please and empower Gurthang? Or was the sword just caught up in the general crescendo of drama of the moment? And when Gurthang says it will kill Turin swiftly, does that mean it's eager to kill him, or it will give him a swift, merciful death? Gurthang is someone that I need to interview to understand the story better.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 12:11am

Post #14 of 39 (2327 views)
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To speak or not to speak? [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like this passage too! Probably the most beautiful (though painful) part of the story.


Quote
‘You come at last,’ she said . ‘I have waited too long.’
‘It was a dark road. I have come as I could,’ he answered .
‘But you are late,’ she said, ‘too late. They are lost.’
‘I know,’ he said. ‘But you are not.’
‘Almost,’ she said. ‘I am spent utterly. I shall go with the sun. They are lost.’ She clutched at his cloak. ‘Little time is left,’ she said . ‘If you know , tell me! How did she find him?’
But Húrin did not answer, and he sat beside the stone with Morwen in his arms; and they did not speak again . The sun went down, and Morwen sighed and clasped his hand and was still; and Húrin knew that she had died.

Morwen can't seem to die without getting off a bitter rebuke to Hurin, even though it's her fault Nienor wound up dead. But I feel sorry for her anyway, and the grief here is overwhelming. What parent could bear to see this end?

I think it's an act of mercy that Hurin doesn't tell her what happened, especially knowing that she was about to die. Maybe if they had years left to live, he should have told her, but he was trying to ease her passing, and what good what it have done her to know? Even though if I were Morwen, I would want to know. How could someone not want to know? It's just a tough situation.

Otherwise, I think their silence while Morwen fades away is because neither knows what to say after such a long, bitter parting and a bitter end, and this silent embrace is the most intimacy they can have at this point.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 12:15am

Post #15 of 39 (2332 views)
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Beleg vs Eol [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I also like to ponder the angle that the sword learned 'good' from Beleg, and maybe, as it was employed in doing good, it tried to rehabilitate.


That's a neat idea. Did Gurthang absorb Eol's dark spirit, then absorb Beleg's virtuous one? If so, did it absorb Turin's twisted soul? Just how conflicted was this sword? Maybe it was glad to be broken and "die" too.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 12:24am

Post #16 of 39 (2328 views)
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Choices and fate [In reply to] Can't Post

While I don't see LOTR as fate-driven, destiny and luck play a much more beneficial role in conjunction with the choices people make. Frodo stumbled across Gollum and insisted on going to the Black Gate, which was a bad choice since he couldn't enter that way, then made another bad choice in trusting Gollum to go to Cirith Ungol. But things still worked out. I find it pure luck that the Orcs at Cirith Ungol all killed each other so Sam could so easily enter and deal with the few who remained. Luck intervened again when Frodo and Sam were captured by the Orc army and forced to march with them, then the Orcs fell into chaos when they encountered another army, enabling the hobbits' escape when Frodo was on the point of collapse. Of course Gollum luckily helped end the quest.

To switch to the other hobbits, their lives were saved in Rohan while escaping the Orc camp when a horse jumped over them rather than ride them down, and they escaped the general slaughter between Eomer's Men and the Orcs. And it was awfully convenient fate-wise that they stumbled right upon Treebeard--couldn't they have wandered in Fangorn and met no one for days? Aragorn and the others didn't run into any Ents when they entered the forest, so it's not like it was thick with them.

Anyway, there are lots more examples. I think you're right that LOTR characters usually make good choices, but when they don't, things still work out most of the time. Gandalf even gets a second lease on life! In contrast, fate keeps Turin alive while people around him repeatedly die until he finally decides to cheat fate's twisted plans and take his own life.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 12:30am

Post #17 of 39 (2329 views)
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Thanks, Brethil! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for finishing off COH and for tirelessly lining up chapter leaders for it, Brethil--we all appreciate it!

Of course, I sorta hoped that as Brethil, you might have some influence on how the story unwound at the end, since it was in your neck of the woods. Maybe on our next read-through, you can fanfic an ending where Turin tames Glaurung to be his pet dragon, who heats everyone's homes in the winter, and everyone lives happily ever after as far as Brethil is concerned?


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 8:13am

Post #18 of 39 (2324 views)
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"Then they lifted up Turin, and saw that his sword was broken asunder. So passed all that he possessed." [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"Then they lifted up Turin, and saw that his sword was broken asunder. So passed all that he possessed."

Here's the nadir - (and quite a passage!). By "possessed" I read more than physical goods: also Turin's reputation, defiance of his fate, and the people he loved (and whose deaths he usually ended up involved with). Everything is broken and gone. It would have been better if he hadn't lived.

But we're not really meant to believe that for long, are we? I'm reminded of Terazed's excellent post about romantic heroes:


Quote
The romantic hero follows his/her own moral compass in defiance of society and eventually is destroyed by the flaws in their personality. Their death is usually seen as a complete failure but their story will oftentimes provide the basis for someone else to make a change that will improve society.

Terazed
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=734634#734634


...a lot of which seems to apply to Turin (though not all- Terazed pointed out that a romantic hero is usually "in defiance of a conventional society which is either amoral or unjust". Here the opposition is Fate or The Curse (whatever form that "really" takes).

In fact, someone quickly builds a monument to Turin as the dragon-slayer who saved their land. Interestingly, at the Council of Elrond, Elrond numbers Turin among the elf-friends in whose company Frodo is fitted to stand (Turin is named along with Hador and Hurin and Beren ). I say 'interestingly' as the elves suffer from being around Turin too (both individual casualties, and the loss of one of their major settlements partly though Turin's military strategy)

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 11:21am

Post #19 of 39 (2318 views)
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Off on a tangent - Elrond's list of elf-friends is a bit odd... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
‘But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right; and though all the mighty elf-friends of old, Hador, and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself were assembled together your seat should be among them.’

—J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, “The Council of Elrond”


Hmm - Tuor doesn't make the list?

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 1:00pm

Post #20 of 39 (2314 views)
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I find that a glaring omission too [In reply to] Can't Post

along with the exclusion of Beor, and Barahir, and all the other Men-heroes in Beleriand. No mention of Haleth? Or even the Easterlings that remained true to Maedhros and mostly died as a result?

Or if we're only going for superstars, how about Huor, who died defending Turgon's exit from the Nirnaeth? He should at least get mention.

I suppose it was a random sample, and Elrond had been talking all day, and his mind was fuzzy. You know how all-day committee meetings go when you haven't had enough coffee.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 1:09pm

Post #21 of 39 (2323 views)
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Turin as romantic hero [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I'm not sure he fits the mold for a few reasons.

1. Society (depending which you choose) wasn't inherently injust. Thingol would have pardoned Turin over Saeros. Brethil and Nargothrond were good places overall.

2. Turin didn't have much of a moral compass, or a rusty one. He had no problem becoming an outlaw, though later was a reformed one.

3. I don't see any good coming to society anywhere in Beleriand as a result of Turin's death.

Maybe he has some overlap with traits of romantic heroes as defined, but overall, it's hard for me to see him as one.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 1:22pm

Post #22 of 39 (2308 views)
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...or not [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Maybe he has some overlap with traits of romantic heroes as defined, but overall, it's hard for me to see him as one.


Yes, that's fair enough he's not the whole package- I think the parallel I was thinking of was that, from Turin's point of view, his life is an utter failure and yet that is not entirely how he's remembered.

Good coming to Beleriand: well the dragon which otherwise would have wrecked the place is defeated. Now of course later on, the Valar come in and wreck the place more thoroughly...Wink

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 1:44pm

Post #23 of 39 (2309 views)
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tangents on a tangent - Elrond's Top Trumps Heroes of The First Age cards [In reply to] Can't Post

A passing thought -sixty years ago, these were all just names! Someone who had just gone to the bookshop this morning sixty years ago today* and was now reading a crisp new First Edition Fellowship Of the Ring would eventually reach this passage and have no idea who any of these heroes were (except Beren, who they have read Aragorn singing about during the journey to Rivendell).

Back then, this sentence was going to look mostly like literary effect (an allusion to an unstated back story to give the tale depth) Could Tolkien have made a selection based on how it would sound? (That ".....and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself....." pattern, for example).

Not sure about that though, because this also sounds OK to my (tin?) ear:

'But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right; and though all the mighty elf-friends of old - Hador and Tuor, Húrin and Túrin, Beor and Barahir, and Beren himself - were assembled together your seat should be among them.’

(..pairs of similar name, you see.)


A bit long, perhaps? Or maybe, as you suggest: it had been a long meeting, & Elrond had left his Top Trumps Heroes of The First Age cards in his desk these last few thousand years. As a consequence maybe he didn't remember everyone. Or maybe he didn't feel it necessary to reel off the names of the whole team.

Hmm- Top Trumps. What scoring system would there be? Wink

*I'm writing this on the 60th anniversary f the first publication of fellowship Of The Ring

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 2:51pm

Post #24 of 39 (2300 views)
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I see your point now [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for clarifying. I had been thinking that Turin didn't inspire anyone else to do anything good or inspire society to change, especially when compared with Beren & Lu, who inspired Beleriand to unite against Morgoth and go on the offensive again. (Yes, I know that ended badly, but still, it seemed positive at the time since it was a morale boost.) Or Frodo "failed utterly" at Mt Doom, but still the world was set free from Sauron's tyranny in spite of his failure. But Turin's life trajectory didn't seem to do the same.

But he did kill the dragon, and there was only one at this time, and we see how dangerous he was. I give him credit for that. Maybe I'd say his relationships all ended badly, and quite a few of his martial deeds, but not all his martial deeds.

There may be more to this. Turin's fame as the Black Sword or whatever alias he used spread through western Beleriand (possibly farther) as someone who was able to thwart Morgoth's armies. That was a morale boost to the Resistance, and a worthy contribution.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 29 2014, 3:55pm

Post #25 of 39 (2298 views)
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An interesting point I see emerging is... [In reply to] Can't Post

An interesting point I see emerging is that whether a story seems happy or sad might depend upon where you think "the end" is....

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60, and I turn 50 (and old enough for Going On An Adventure: who's that fellow in the grey hat scratching at my door?)

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