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BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell
Jul 25 2014, 7:32pm
Post #1 of 14
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Why did Gandalf enter Dol Guldur?
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This question is something that has been bugging me since the DOS's release. I've thought about 3 potential reasons as to why Gandalf 'springs the trap', rather than waiting for The White Council. 1. He knows that 'The Necromancer' is Sauron and wants to confront him. However, this doesn't make sense as he knows he would not be able to defeat Sauron, even in his weakened form. 2. He thinks 'The Necromancer' is one of the Nazgul, or perhaps the Witch King. To me, this makes the most sense as it provides an explanation as to why Gandalf is confident of entering on his own and hence provides an explanation for the look of surprise when the 'darkness' ignites into the Eye of Sauron during his duel. 3. He knows he will be captured but is pushing the White Council into attacking. I don't really think this is viable, as surely, Galadriel promised him she would help him if he required. Then again, it still doesn't provide an explanation as to why he didn't wait for Galadriel before entering the fortress. Have any of you got some better ideas?
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erdildeniz
Rivendell
Jul 25 2014, 7:36pm
Post #2 of 14
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3 is more likely. Yes, Galadriel promised him to come help but only Galadriel and Gandalf was not enough for an attack on Sauron&Necromancer. Gandalf was sure it was Sauron, so he entered Dol Guldur. And that was an enough proof for Saruman to join attack. Gandalf knew without Saruman the attack couldn't be reach the point. So personally, Gandalf entered Dol Guldur to make Saruman join the attack.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 25 2014, 7:39pm
Post #3 of 14
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The Council has not yet been convinced.
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Unlike the circumstances in the book, Saruman has not yet been convinced that Sauron has returned; therefore, Gandalf has little choice but to "spring the trap." Gandalf is already certain that the Necromancer is Sauron. Galadriel was prepared to believe him, Elrond seemed to be on the fence, but Saruman was not ready to face the truth. This is a change from Tolkien's canon where Gandalf alerted the White Council of Sauron's return 90 years previously and he only had to convince Saruman that it was necessary to attack Sauron and drive him from Mirkwood.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell
Jul 25 2014, 7:42pm
Post #4 of 14
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isn't this a huge risk on Gandalf's part? I mean, rather than capture him, Sauron could easily decide to simply destroy his mortal form...
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 25 2014, 7:55pm
Post #5 of 14
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Gandalf might have been playing possum.
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What if Gandalf was playing possum as a deliberate defense mechanism? It's rather common in the natural world - some ducks, snakes and many mammals will play dead. There is something deeply ingrained in animal nature that repels animals from doing further harm onto something that is dead or non-moving. Take the Opossum - it usually reacts to danger as many other mammals do; by hissing, growling and baring its teeth. It can also bite viciously if pushed too far. However, if this all fails and the situation becomes too dangerous, plan B is to feign death; the opossum collapses to the ground, drools as if it was very ill, and then remains motionless, with its mouth open and its teeth bared. It even produces a putrid, corpse-like smell from its anal glands. And, as a result, the predator soon loses interest on an apparently dead animal, and leaves the opossum alone. Perhaps Gandalf was also playing possum? Gandalf tried hissing and growling, so decided on plan B and was deliberately caught. The White Council, especially Saruman, is only ever going to act if one of his own is trapped (and the fact that his arm will be pulled Radagast, Galadriel and Elrond). Maybe Gandalf thought the only way was to deliberately get caught in order for Atomic Galadriel to turn up with the devices of Saruman? But why didn't the Necromancer just kill Gandalf? Well a captured Wizard is better than a dead one. He still has his uses. In the movie-universe, the Necromancer might already be grooming Saruman. The Blue Wizards are missing, and Radagast's mind is absent. The only Maiar left to capture is Gandalf ... Once the Maiar are ensnared, who's left to stop him?
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Dcole4
Rohan
Jul 25 2014, 7:56pm
Post #6 of 14
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I wish they had been a little clearer on this point. I think what has muddled this sub-plot is the fact that originally Gandalf entered with only a suspicion. But with the pick-ups they added the scene outside the High Fells where Gandalf almost explicitly says he knows Sauron has returned which ruins the surprise and honestly makes the line "SAU....RON..." seem kinda redundant. I have a feeling the extended scenes with Thrain might pad this out a bit but it still seems quite strange.
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Name
Rohan
Jul 25 2014, 7:59pm
Post #7 of 14
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You'd think Sauron would know better than that
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He too is a Maia, so I assume he knows what's up when it comes to the Istari. Sending Gandalf's spirit back to the Valar is probably something Sauron doesn't want to try out.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb? "Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
(This post was edited by Name on Jul 25 2014, 8:01pm)
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BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell
Jul 25 2014, 8:00pm
Post #8 of 14
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Well put Daniel. Allowing himself to be captured forces the White Council to play their hand, Saruman too. The EE will hopefully clear up some of these problems,
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 25 2014, 8:17pm
Post #9 of 14
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I think he wants information (the Ring, Sauron's plans, the stage of his army and power, etc.) as well as pressuring the WC. He might be hopeful that Sauron might also not kill him or better destroy his human form as long as he can get information regarding the WC and their willingness to move against him. Judging from Gandalf's look when he sees the legions he also underestimated the force assembled in DG.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 26 2014, 12:59am
Post #10 of 14
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...but how could Gandalf have known that he would be put in a birdcage, rather than killed? Just seems like a foolish move, on both Gandalf's part and on Sauron's. I did like the Sauron reveal in DoS, but I kinda think the writing for the entire DG subplot is a little iffy, especially the idea of Gandalf traveling all the way back to the Misty Mountains when he's already at the edge of Mirkwood. We don't really know that Saruman is being "groomed" either. I never got the impression that movie Saruman had to be "groomed" by Sauron, even though he was kind of portrayed as a willing lackey in the LotR films, as opposed to the double-dealing, back-stabbing Saruman from the books that wanted to BE the Dark Lord rather than serve the Dark Lord.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 26 2014, 7:03am
Post #11 of 14
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WELL, Gandalf has NOT gone to...
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THE BATHroom once? in these Filmzzz He needs "some Privacy" at his age...?
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 26 2014, 8:04am
Post #12 of 14
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...but how could Gandalf have known that he would be put in a birdcage, rather than killed? Just seems like a foolish move, on both Gandalf's part and on Sauron's. I did like the Sauron reveal in DoS, but I kinda think the writing for the entire DG subplot is a little iffy, especially the idea of Gandalf traveling all the way back to the Misty Mountains when he's already at the edge of Mirkwood. But that's the risk he had to make. Just like being a fool and risking two Hobbits successfully taking the Ring into Mordor and throwing it into Mount Doom. Or confronting the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm. At least in the movie-universe, they were right by the exit. They could have all escaped unharmed easily. Luckily for our Wizard, he's foolishness always seems to pay off.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jul 26 2014, 11:33pm
Post #13 of 14
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"He has not regained his full strength..."
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I think Gandalf really underestimated Sauron. He seems very intrigued by the spell on Dol Guldur and sounds very confident when he realizes that Sauron probably hasn't regained his full strength. And the fact that Radagast was able to enter Dol Guldur not that long ago and escape probably made him think he had an ever better chance.
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Jul 26 2014, 11:35pm)
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Yngwulff
Gondor
Jul 27 2014, 2:46am
Post #14 of 14
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As an Istari and Guardian of Middle Earth it was his purpose. to counter Sauron if a threat was posed.
“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”
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