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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
DOS Chapter of The Week (CHOW): "The Elvenking"

Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 25 2014, 2:08pm

Post #1 of 24 (2510 views)
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DOS Chapter of The Week (CHOW): "The Elvenking" Can't Post


(courtesy of Blackfox, taken from the June/July CHOW sign-up thread)


The Elvenking
(Runtime: 00:36:05 - 00:39:38)


Hello Everyone!

Welcome to this weekend's CHOW!

This is my first time hosting a CHOW, so I hope you'll find it to the standard of preceding quality CHOWs.

There are 2 parts: the first is movie-focused and the second is a quick comparison with the book. Also, for the first part, I've decided to do combo images of the screencaps as this is an emoting scene, and imo, there's way more screenshots than the miserly forum-mandated ten that needs to be put up. But I do not want to have the wrath of mod visited on my very first CHOW either, so please bear with the compromise and the combination (therefore smaller) images. (Almost all screenshots were sourced from the CHOW organisers' recommended site: http://screencapped.net/...otr/index.php?cat=66)
If you're set, and got your magnifying glasses and cuppa ready, here we go!

(Fair warning disclosure: While I aim to be as objective as I can as a responsible and ethical CHOW host, avowed Thranduil's Thrall that I am, you may perceive a natural bias to the Elvenking's advantage with the screenshot selection. In no way was this the result of a conscious prime directive - in any case, in defense I plead that this chapter is named "The Elvenking" after all. No Dwarves were slighted during my image trawling... well, maybe that belligerently ungracious one gifted the privilege of being granted an audience Thranduil, it's not that tough a choice when it comes down to it.

Note for Thranduil appreciators: Shameless plug! Join the appreciation for Thranduil and his onscreen avatar in the Appreciation threads, links in my sig)

== @@@ ==


PART 1
The chapter starts with the Dwarves attempting to break down their cell gates. All except Balin who tells the others to stop their gate-crashing as they're in the Halls of the Woodland Realm, not some orc dungeon, and no one's leaving without the Elvenking's consent.

As he speaks, the background music starts with a stately ominous vibe with the cello in the lead as we're shown the dungeons where the Dwarves are being hosted, sweeping upwards to views of the Halls, including stairways, waterfalls, and open structures like gazebos, Elves going about their business, and finally, the open atrium of the King's throne.

1a. Why did the Dwarves think they could body-slam their way out of the locked cells? What did you think of the details like KiliFili's hand proportion to the rest of him?


1b. Why was Balin so sure about the futility of the exercise?



We get a very wide shot showing the cavernous nature of the Halls, and the throne atrium amidst the space. On the atrium platform, the Elvenking is facing the camera while Thorin faces his throne in the other direction. Our view changes to a closer shot: the back of the Elvenking King as he looks out beyond the atrium; the music fades into silence as the Elvenking speaks (for the first time in the movies), and he turns back to the camera and Thorin as he talks. The King did not seem impressed with the Company's quest. Then we see Thorin in the foreground, and the tall Elvenking's torso in the background. As the King continues to speak, he moves into frame, with Thorin standing defiantly in the centre of the atrium. The King tells Thorin what he thinks is the Company's real purpose, that the quest is not as high and mighty as may be perceived but probably something more "prosaic".


The King now stands just behind Thorin, where he pauses for a moment. The background music starts up again on a suspenseful note, now with the violin leading, as he takes a step forward while effortlessly twisting his torso to look Thorin in the eye, shrewdly deducing that the Dwarf has found a way in. Thorin gets wary but keeps his calm. The music continues to build an ominous, seductive, yet stately tone.

The King keeps eye contact with Thorin as he moves backwards towards the stairs leading up to his throne, identifying the Arkenstone as Thorin's true purpose, it being the symbol of rule among the Dwarves and precious to Thorin beyond measure. Thorin is perturbed by the Elvenking's insight.

2a. Why has Thorin been singled out for an audience with the Elvenking? How did the Elvenking deduced so much without Thorin's cooperation?

2b. What do you think of the Elvenking's lines (eg the use of the word "prosaic", was the double-entendre intentional) and the delivery? What about his body language? What impressions do you get from his interactions with Thorin?

2c. What is your impression of the throne-atrium and its setting?


The Elvenking then commiserates with a smile, stating he understands why Thorin treasures the Arkenstone so. Immediately his look turns serious as he equates the Dwarf's quest for the Arkenstone to his own desire for the white gems, presumably the same ones Thror denied him in the AUJ EE prologue (which Thorin witnessed in some surprised). Thorin is fascinated by the King's glittering eyes as he talks about the gems.

Then the King offers aid to Thorin, who seemed open to the idea. The music alters the lead to the cello's bass tones again as the camera focuses on Thorin while the King continues to talk, and tells Thorin he would release Thorin for the gems in return.


Thorin seemed to consider the "favour for a favour" offer, with the Elvenking assuring him of his word as between King to King.

3a. Why did the Elvenking offer the deal to Thorin? He seemed to think little of Thorin's chances for success, judging from his tone and attitude thus far. How would he be sure he would get the white-gems if Thorin does accept the deal (afterall, Thror played keepaway right when the Elvenking was about to touch the gems)?


3b. What is going through Thorin's mind as the Elvenking talks about the white-gems. Was he thinking back on the scene in AUJ where Thror literally denied the Elvenking in his face, and his own reaction to it, and just realising the importance of the gems to the King or perhaps the Elves?


3c. What was your impression of the Elvenking's apparently complete but quick change in moods from his amusement at Thorin's discomfort to have his true objective laid bare, his smile while expressing empathy for Thorin's desire to find the Arkenstone, to his rapture about the White Gems, and his solemn offer of help?


3d. Did the Elvenking miss or misinterpret Thorin's dismissive snort when he said, "a favour for a favour"? Given the wrong footing their last encounter ended on, with the Elvenking riding away as Thorin beckons for help during Smaug's attack, why does the King not seem to think Thorin might bear some grudge?



The music's tempo changes as Thorin walks away from the King. Thorin then states he would not trust "Thranduil", incidentally the first of 2 times the Elvenking's name is mentioned directly in the movie, and with his voice growing louder, accuses Thranduil of bring dishonourable, turning his back on friends - in particular Thorin and his people when they asked him for help in the past. Thranduil seemed to be taken aback by Thorin's vitriolic, and is riled up in turn. We get a quick shot of Thranduil sneering as Thorin curses him in Dwarvish (here the music fades again). Then he is immediately in Thorin's face, crossing the space between them with unbelievable speed, and telling Thorin he knows the dangers of dragons.

4a. Thorin seemed to hold Thranduil accountable for all the misfortunes of Erebor, including the aftermath and displacement of the Dwarves from Smaug's occupation. Why would that be? Is this fair, considering that if the tables were turned, Thorin or Thrain/Thror might make the same decisions?

4b. Thorin did not mention Smaug or dragons specifically, the nearest was the "Die a death of a thousand flames" curse he spat in Dwarvish but Thranduil seemed to get the connection and was angered by Thorin's implied charge that he had no idea about suffering dragon wrath. Would Thranduil know Dwarvish given the secretive nature of Dwarves, and his own isolationist stance (which is demonstrated in the later scene with Tauriel)?

4c. Thorin has certainly hit a raw nerve. Do you think Thranduil is more angry with Thorin's presumption that he and his people were the only ones to have suffered greatly, or was Thranduil simply rattled by Thorin's insolence?


4d. What do you think of the portrayal of the Elvenking's agility, speed and condescension towards Thorin and his quest?


4e. What do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the exchange thus far?



Thunderclaps are heard, and the music starts again as Thranduil does a surprising thing; he reveals, with some pain, horrific scarring on the left side of his face, including an opaque eye, as he tells Thorin he has faced dragons before. Then he pulls back and his face is instantly restored to its prior flawlessness. Thorin seemed astonished by the facemelt, not saying a thing during the event. Thranduil then tells Thorin he had warned Thror of the dangers of his greed, which Thor did not heed.

5a. Was the facemelt a surprise to you? Do you think it's an illusion or was the usually perfect mien of the Elvenking the illusion?

5b. Was it a surprise to learn that Thranduil had warned Thror of the consequence for his abject greed, or that Thror did not heed the warning?


5c. What would be going through Thorin's mind during this time?


5d. Again, what do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the facemelt of their King?



Then Thranduil climbs the steps to his throne and tells Thorin he is just like his grandfather. He dismisses Thorin, and Elf-guards take him away. The music also seemed to take on a slightly more peaceful tone.



6a. Why does Thranduil express it almost like a personal disappointment that Thorin is like Thror?

6b. What is Thorin thinking at this point?



As Thorin is being taken away, Thranduil declares Thorin can stay 100 years in which Thorin has time to rot with his hospitality as he has the patience to wait, with a century being merely a blink to Elves.

6c. Why did Thranduil say that? Given that this is his fortress, and all the cards are essentially in his hands, why would he be willing to wait for Thorin to be cooperative, instead of extracting answers or information by other, presumably quicker, means?

6d. Does it seem like Thranduil's parting shot was a response to something Thorin said, probably some blustering that's been cut from the TE?

6e. Are there other bits that informs the exchange which gave you the same feeling? That something has been cut or edited out? What are they?



Thorin is thrown back in his cell, and Balin immediately asks if Thranduil offered a deal, to which Thorin said yes and that he threw it back in Thranduil's face. Balin was disappointed as it was the only way to get out, but Thorin seemed hopeful of another solution.

7a. It seems like Balin is not concern about any possible bodily hurt to Thorin, being more concerned about a deal than Thorin's personal well-being. Balin really seems to know how the cookie crumbles, or rather, the stardust sprinkles with the Elvenking. Why would that be?

7b. Why didn't Thorin take the deal? Is he being unrealistic to think there's another possible way out? Was he even thinking about the alternative when he threw Thranduil's offer back at him?



General questions

On characters and acting:

8a. Thranduil: What is your impression of the Elvenking's character and how he is presented in the movie? What do you think of his throne-atrium, including the Elf-guard stations, and the way Thranduil holds court and conducts business? What do you think of Lee Pace's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Elvish, or un-elvish?

8b. Thorin: What is your impression of Thorin's character from this chapter? What do you think of Richard Armitage's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Dwarvish/un-Dwarvish? Have your thoughts about the character changed because of this chapter?


8c. Balin: What is your impression of Balin's character from this chapter? What do you think of Ken Stott's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Dwarvish/un-Dwarvish? Have your thoughts about the character changed because of this chapter?



Elf vs Dwarf:

9a. How do you find this confrontational exchange between Thranduil and Thorin? Was it expected? Was this chapter written well? How about the execution?

9b. What words would you use to describe the contrasts or similarities you see between Thranduil and Thorin?



10. What do you think about the forced perspective when the two characters are in the same frame? Was the use of angles enhancing or taking away from the characters in terms of their respective racial traits, bearing and station as Kings, their physical differences, and the situation?



11. What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the background renderings of the Halls?



12. Any other thoughts about this chapter you would like to share?



13. Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?





PART 2 (Book Spoilers aka Let's nerd some)

Differences. In the book:
  • The Elves and the Dwarves were interacting for the first time when the Company got lost in Mirkwood, which resulted in the Dwarves' capture - first Thorin and then the others.
  • Thranduil gives no indication of prior acquaintance with Thorin. Nor is Thranduil specifically "white-gem" obsessed, he is simply described as having a weakness for treasure.
  • Thranduil interrogated all the Dwarves. To a Dwarf, they all focused on repeating that they got lost and hungry when questioned. (On a slight OT, I really like this rendering of the book interrogation using the movie screenshots)
  • Thorin is older than Balin, the old man of the company in fact.
  • The dungeon cells were scattered in different locations within the Halls.
  • Thorin did not know the others were captured, nor that Bilbo was free-ranging, until Bilbo found him and freed him.
  • Thranduil's deduction of "attempted burglary" was not mentioned until news of Smaug's demise reached his ears later in the book.
  • Thranduil used a simple carven chair of wood. No mention of particular fondness for Elk antlers in his interior decor.
  • Thranduil was merely suspicious of the Dwarves, and did not offer any deals to the Dwarves. Also, the Dwarves' transgressions of walking in his realm and party-crashing attempts fueled his displeasure with the Company.
  • Thorin did not go off any rant about Thranduil's "betrayal", keeping only to one truth: he was starving. Similarly, Thranduil's facemelt and the mention of dragon experience were not in the book.
  • Balin's seeming familiarity with Thranduil and the way things are done in the Woodland Realm.

Similarities. In the book:
  • Thranduil's crown of berries and leaves.
  • Thranduil's golden hair.
  • Thorin's stubbornness when being interrogated by Thranduil.
  • Thranduil and his Elves being highly suspicious of strangers.
  • The integrity of the Elven Halls' security - truly no one leaves but by the King's consent for Thranduil wields magical control over the doors.
  • The lack of mistreatment of prisoners by the Elves, being Good People (ergo dedicated signatory to the Geneva Convention).

14. What do you think about the differences and similarities?

15. What other points did you notice?


16. Any other comments?

== @@@ ==


Well, that was a long one. Smile
For your patience and participation: Thank you!


(TGIF and well, hopefully this CHOW doesn't get lost in the SDCC and BOTFA-reveals bustle)


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four new! posted 16 Jul


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


(This post was edited by dernwyn on Jul 25 2014, 4:12pm)


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Jul 25 2014, 2:27pm

Post #2 of 24 (2057 views)
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wow this was a long one! [In reply to] Can't Post

Some thougts (I´m sorry not to stick to your questions)

I think its because the lightintg but this scene seems to me like if for example the guards are covered in dust, I dont know why. They seem to me a bit colorless.

The exchange of sights between Thorin and Thranduil is not perfectly done but I like to see the different sizes between them

Balin seems to me a bit overused giving us the info about the elven cells being impossible to escape off

Ii like the last line of dialogue of Thranduil, saying something that all we thought and establishing in a very obvious but clever way the inmortality of elves

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 25 2014, 2:42pm

Post #3 of 24 (2043 views)
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Yeah, it is a character/emoting scene... plus well, I've had a while to think on it [In reply to] Can't Post

... and a beast to put up. Had to have a few gos at the formatting and image positioning too.


No worries on doing your own thang, and thanks for sharing, Mr Arkenstone Smile

Re the guards - I didn't have that impression about the dust - interesting observation, so now I'm wondering if its the screen? For example, on my laptop (a Toshiba) the tone and colour of any graphics look rather more subdued compared to if I project the same onto the TV (an LG LCD screen). It is very apparent when I put the two screens side by side. Though another possibility that came to mind was deliberate camouflage, since even in the WETA Chronicles, the concept drawings of the Elven guard designs also seem quite earthy. Just a thought.

LoL on Balin... well, someone has to be the Gwen DeMarco of the Company Tongue and it's almost always the wise or the wisecrack. Personally, I much prefer the wise to the wisecrack of this lot. Laugh


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four new! posted 16 Jul


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Jul 25 2014, 2:50pm)


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Jul 25 2014, 2:52pm

Post #4 of 24 (2039 views)
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It would be a very original way to represent the isolationism of Thranduil [In reply to] Can't Post

having his guards to be covered in dustTongue

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 25 2014, 3:36pm

Post #5 of 24 (1994 views)
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LoL well, before fatigues become the fashion i guess dust is a good idea // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four new! posted 16 Jul


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Elarie
Grey Havens

Jul 25 2014, 4:13pm

Post #6 of 24 (2017 views)
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Some thoughts on a couple of the questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Just picked out a few of the questions to think about:

1b. Why was Balin so sure...
Balin seems to be the "go to" guy for most questions - maybe he was one of the diplomats between Erebor and the Woodland Realm before the dragon and knows more about the elves than the others.
2a. Why has Thorin been singled out...
In the movie version they've met before. We have to assume that Thranduil looked at the prisoners and recognized Thorin.
3a. Why did the Elvenking offer the deal to Thorin?
I think Thranduil is so convinced that dwarves are just greedy little gold grubbers that he expected Thorin to "do a deal" with no argument. I don't think he was prepared for all that hatred and anger on Thorin's part.
5a. Was the face melt a surprise?
Yes! Total surprise, and still haven't really figured it out. My own theory is that it was a real wound that was healed by Elven healing, but Thranduil's memory of it can be made visible. There's a lot in Tolkien about Elves and memory and their ability to walk in two worlds at once and so on. I think their memories are as real to them as the present world and that's what we were seeing.
6c. ...extracting answers...
Elves just don't do torture, not even to orcs or to Gollum when they had him. They are innately too decent for that.
9a. Elf vs. dwarf
Exceptionally well written and brilliantly acted by two strong charismatic actors. A favorite scene.


And once again the world has not arranged itself just for me.

(This post was edited by Elarie on Jul 25 2014, 4:18pm)


MirielCelebel
Rivendell


Jul 25 2014, 5:25pm

Post #7 of 24 (2024 views)
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My response may be just as long [In reply to] Can't Post

though I shall try my hardest to avoid that.
1. I love that you brought the film score into your analysis because it is my favorite part of all of these movies. Howard Shore tells as much of a story with his music as PJ does in the whole film.
2. We are told in the beginning of AUJ that there were good relations between the Woodan Realm and Erebor at one point so it would be absolutely believable for Thranduil to recognize Thorin, thus singling him out from the rest of the group.
3. Visually, the Woodland Realm is my favorite place in Middle-earth to date. I am partially bias since my roleplaying days had me as the daughter of Thranduil (sister to Legolas) so I have spent a lot of time envisioning this place even before the movies but PJ literally blew my mind with this realm. It is exactly how I pictured it when I read the book as a kid. The concept designers (Howe and Lee) are visionaries and the special effects teams who made it happen on screen are just geniuses. Very well done.
4. Lee Pace is amazing. Period. He did such a wonderful job playing Thranduil and his body language and his demeanor are all perfect for the character. Thranduil getting in Thorin's face like that made it so much more personal. Thrandy can be a drama queen, I heartily believed that from reading the book also, and he is in his "You're in my house now, bitch!" mode (yes, imagine him snapping fingers if you must), and this is how he comes across to Throin, who of course doesn't take too kindly to that attitude. I can believe Thranduil knows Dwarvish. Maybe not fluently, but enough to understand him. Again, if relations were good with Erebor back in the day, someone as old as Thranduil would know courtly manners to speak the language of whomever he was visiting. Notice that Kili pouts after hearing Legolas' words to Tauriel? I wouldn't put it past Thorin to have taught his nephews languages well, even if it begrudgingly included Elvish.
5. The facemelt....was definitely a surprise when I saw in the theatres. So much so, that I ran home and looked at every book I could get my hands on that talked about Thranduil or his father Oropher to see if they had gone dragon hunting in the north or something. I found nothing like that so this was obviously fabricated by PJ but I'm not opposed to it. Thranduil is no less greedy than the dwarves, though he may not be pro-active in his greed. I wouldn't put it past him to have tried obtaining his due treasure some other way. Dragons covet treasure so to find treasure, theoretically just find a dragon. If this is what happened, and Thranduil got burned (literally), this could have been his experience when he warned Thror. Perhaps a reason he did not come to the aid of the dwarves when Smaug came was so that they could learn a lesson that he warned them about. (I know that NONE of that last assessment follows the book at all, but I'm just trying to explain the face melt within PJ's boundaries and with what he has already given us).
6. In regards to Thorin being older than Balin, I really like what they did in the films. Balin is his counselor whom he outright defies sometimes and takes on an extra father figure to Thorin. I like the relationship and I am ok with the change.
7. Richard Armitage is my new favorite actor. Seriously, after AUJ came out I went and grabbed all the seasons of Robin Hood, North and South, and I will be in the theatre August 8 for Into the Storm. He takes each role so personally and just becomes the character without being a full-time method actor. He loved Thorin because he read the story as a kid and he did not want to ruin the role for nerds like us who overanalyze EVERYTHING! He is a geek just like us and he tried to justify everything he did as Thorin. When they suggested he have a short beard, he wanted to know why. He came up with the story that in honor of Thror and Thrain who exited the mountain with "singed beards," Thorin vowed to never grow his out. Genius! So simple and yet so thoughtful. RA is Thorin through and through.
Ok I am done. This was a wonderfully written post. It goes along the lines of my project and I love an opportunity to be a total nerd like this. Thanks Lirk!

"The Road goes ever on..."

Writing Bliss


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 25 2014, 8:07pm

Post #8 of 24 (1965 views)
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Even more questions than mine! ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

1a. Why did the Dwarves think they could body-slam their way out of the locked cells? What did you think of the details like KiliFili's hand proportion to the rest of him?

Wouldn't you if you had a chance to meet Thranduil? Tongue For all they knew, Thorin was being tortured. Even if they had escaped, the Guards would have swiftly caught them.

1b. Why was Balin so sure about the futility of the exercise?

In Middle-earth, the grayer your hair, the wiser you are.

2a. Why has Thorin been singled out for an audience with the Elvenking? How did the Elvenking deduced so much without Thorin's cooperation?

Perhaps a Dwarf is more trustworthy by himself? Perhaps Thranduil told Thorin the others would be tortured until he told him everything? That might be enough to get him talking.

2b. What do you think of the Elvenking's lines (eg the use of the word "prosaic", was the double-entendre intentional) and the delivery? What about his body language? What impressions do you get from his interactions with Thorin?

He's just so sassy.

2c. What is your impression of the throne-atrium and its setting?

I want to know the number of Elves that have died falling off those walkways. Perhaps this is Middle-earth's Logan's Run - when you reach 3000 years old you have to run around the Kingdom without dyeing.

3a. Why did the Elvenking offer the deal to Thorin? He seemed to think little of Thorin's chances for success, judging from his tone and attitude thus far. How would he be sure he would get the white-gems if Thorin does accept the deal (afterall, Thror played keepaway right when the Elvenking was about to touch the gems)?

If they had set a deal, I can't imagine Thranduil would have let them go to Erebor alone. There would have been an Elvish vanguard.

3b. What is going through Thorin's mind as the Elvenking talks about the white-gems. Was he thinking back on the scene in AUJ where Thror literally denied the Elvenking in his face, and his own reaction to it, and just realising the importance of the gems to the King or perhaps the Elves?

He's probably just had enough!

4a. Thorin seemed to hold Thranduil accountable for all the misfortunes of Erebor, including the aftermath and displacement of the Dwarves from Smaug's occupation. Why would that be? Is this fair, considering that if the tables were turned, Thorin or Thrain/Thror might make the same decisions?

Well Thranduil could have helped! I don't blame Thorin in all honesty. But yes, the same decisions would have been made regardless of who Smaug attacked.

5a. Was the facemelt a surprise to you? Do you think it's an illusion or was the usually perfect mien of the Elvenking the illusion?

Absolutely! I saw all the "Thranduil's scar" threads before seeing the film, but I presumed he suffered one from a stray arrow or fist. I wasn't expecting that kind of scar. I like it. It adds a very important dimension to Thranduil.

7a. It seems like Balin is not concern about any possible bodily hurt to Thorin, being more concerned about a deal than Thorin's personal well-being. Balin really seems to know how the cookie crumbles, or rather, the stardust sprinkles with the Elvenking. Why would that be?

See 1b. Wink


Kim
Valinor


Jul 26 2014, 5:30am

Post #9 of 24 (1934 views)
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Here we go! [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all, thank you for finding a way around the photo limit to give us all of those great shots. This chapter is a feast for the eyes!

1a. Why did the Dwarves think they could body-slam their way out of the locked cells? What did you think of the details like KiliFili's hand proportion to the rest of him?
Well, you know those dwarves, always defaulting to brute force. I did think it was kind of funny that Oin was body slamming Gloin against the bars of the door – that hadda hurt! Tongue

1b. Why was Balin so sure about the futility of the exercise?

He was probably the only one who remembered that dwarves had built these cells, and therefore knew how impossible they would be to break out of.

2a. Why has Thorin been singled out for an audience with the Elvenking? How did the Elvenking deduced so much without Thorin's cooperation?
Well, the Elvenking knew who Thorin was, so naturally would speak to the leader of the company he just had taken into custody.

2b. What do you think of the Elvenking's lines (eg the use of the word "prosaic", was the double-entendre intentional) and the delivery? What about his body language? What impressions do you get from his interactions with Thorin?
Seems pretty confident/arrogant, and almost playful, like a cat with a mouse. He’s probably been rather bored, so relishes an opportunity to have a chat.

2c. What is your impression of the throne-atrium and its setting?
Well, it’s pretty darned gorgeous, I must say. It’s pretty amazing to see yet another underground realm that feels so open and airy.

3a. Why did the Elvenking offer the deal to Thorin? He seemed to think little of Thorin's chances for success, judging from his tone and attitude thus far. How would he be sure he would get the white-gems if Thorin does accept the deal (afterall, Thror played keepaway right when the Elvenking was about to touch the gems)?
Well, I guess he figured he take whatever possible chance came his way. I suppose he felt fairly confident Thorin would stick to the bargain if it got him out of jail. And maybe Thranduil had noticed the look on Thorin’s face when Thror pulled them away, and thought Thorin might be more willing to make a deal.


3b. What is going through Thorin's mind as the Elvenking talks about the white-gems. Was he thinking back on the scene in AUJ where Thror literally denied the Elvenking in his face, and his own reaction to it, and just realising the importance of the gems to the King or perhaps the Elves?

This is a really good question. It seems like he’s listening and considering Thranduil’s offer, but I think he’s just biding his time until he can vent his rage.



3c. What was your impression of the Elvenking's apparently complete but quick change in moods from his amusement at Thorin's discomfort to have his true objective laid bare, his smile while expressing empathy for Thorin's desire to find the Arkenstone, to his rapture about the White Gems, and his solemn offer of help?
It’s like he couldn’t wait to jump on a chance to get those jewels after all this time, and he figures he’s holding all the cards, so he can dangle the offer of freedom, but can’t really hide what he wants so badly.

3d. Did the Elvenking miss or misinterpret Thorin's dismissive snort when he said, "a favour for a favour"? Given the wrong footing their last encounter ended on, with the Elvenking riding away as Thorin beckons for help during Smaug's attack, why does the King not seem to think Thorin might bear some grudge?

Very good question indeed! In fact, I think Thorin has shown great restraint up to this point considering what happened the last time they saw each other. Apparently, Thranduil has dismissed it in his mind, not really considering the impact to the dwarves.

4a. Thorin seemed to hold Thranduil accountable for all the misfortunes of Erebor, including the aftermath and displacement of the Dwarves from Smaug's occupation. Why would that be? Is this fair, considering that if the tables were turned, Thorin or Thrain/Thror might make the same decisions?
Well, from what we heard, Thranduil didn’t provide any help to the dwarves after the attack, and they were left to wander the wilderness all the way over to the Blue Mountains. So yeah, I think Thorin has a pretty good reason to be furious with Thranduil about his treatment/lack of assistance.



4b. Thorin did not mention Smaug or dragons specifically, the nearest was the "Die a death of a thousand flames" curse he spat in Dwarvish but Thranduil seemed to get the connection and was angered by Thorin's implied charge that he had no idea about suffering dragon wrath. Would Thranduil know Dwarvish given the secretive nature of Dwarves, and his own isolationist stance (which is demonstrated in the later scene with Tauriel)?
Well, it does seem like he understood what Thorin said, although he might have interpreted it somewhat considering Thorin’s mind is obviously on what happened to his people when the dragon came. Although, remember that Elrond knows ancient dwarvish, so it’s not outside the realm of possibility that Thranduil does too, as well as modern.

4c. Thorin has certainly hit a raw nerve. Do you think Thranduil is more angry with Thorin's presumption that he and his people were the only ones to have suffered greatly, or was Thranduil simply rattled by Thorin's insolence?

He probably hasn’t been spoken to/challenged by anyone in a really long time, so that’s taken him aback. And I don’t know that Thranduil really does understand how much the dwarves have suffered, or at least seems to think they deserved what they got since they brought it on themselves. So he’s surprised at being taken to task over it.



4d. What do you think of the portrayal of the Elvenking's agility, speed and condescension towards Thorin and his quest?
Well, his portrayal by Lee Pace is excellent, very haughty and high and mighty. The physicality is very elegant and aloof, but he’s not above getting in Thorin’s face.



4e. What do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the exchange thus far?
“Well, this is the most excitement we’ve had around here in years!”

5a. Was the facemelt a surprise to you? Do you think it's an illusion or was the usually perfect mien of the Elvenking the illusion?
Yes, that was a surprise, but it seemed to explain why he didn’t want to help fight against Smaug, if he’d faced dragons before. It did bring up some questions about what was real and what was the illusion.



5b. Was it a surprise to learn that Thranduil had warned Thror of the consequence for his abject greed, or that Thror did not heed the warning?
That seemed to fit into the story, so didn’t seem like a surprise.



5c. What would be going through Thorin's mind during this time?
Probably not quite sure what to make of this new information, and probably didn’t know that Thranduil had warned Thror, although he may have been thinking through his own reaction to Thror’s state of mind and obsession with the gold, and wondering if Thranduil had a point.



5d. Again, what do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the facemelt of their King?
“On second thought, I’m just going to stand here quietly and pretend I haven’t seen or heard anything.”

6a. Why does Thranduil express it almost like a personal disappointment that Thorin is like Thror?
Well, part of that is probably that once again, he hasn’t gotten his way ie his shiny white gems.



6b. What is Thorin thinking at this point?
Wondering if he is like his grandfather?

6c. Why did Thranduil say that? Given that this is his fortress, and all the cards are essentially in his hands, why would he be willing to wait for Thorin to be cooperative, instead of extracting answers or information by other, presumably quicker, means?
He wants those gems, but he’s waited this long, he can wait a little longer. And he probably figures after a few years, Thorin might soften up and be more willing to make a deal, and a couple of years is probably fast enough for an elf.



6d. Does it seem like Thranduil's parting shot was a response to something Thorin said, probably some blustering that's been cut from the TE?
Yeah, it does seem like that, sure hope we get it back in the EE!

6e. Are there other bits that informs the exchange which gave you the same feeling? That something has been cut or edited out? What are they?

Right after Thranduil says, “you are just like him” and waves his hand, and the music changes, it feels like there may have been something in between, like maybe another line from Thorin.

7a. It seems like Balin is not concern about any possible bodily hurt to Thorin, being more concerned about a deal than Thorin's personal well-being. Balin really seems to know how the cookie crumbles, or rather, the stardust sprinkles with the Elvenking. Why would that be?
Presumably, Balin had kind of a diplomatic role in the court, and knew how things worked, and knew Thranduil as well. So he probably had a pretty good idea what was going on up in the throne room.



7b. Why didn't Thorin take the deal? Is he being unrealistic to think there's another possible way out? Was he even thinking about the alternative when he threw Thranduil's offer back at him?
He was probably so blind in his fury that he never really considered making a deal with this person he viewed as the enemy. It may have occurred to him as the conversation went on that there could be another way out, indeed, he could have had it in mind the whole time once he realized Bilbo was missing in the prior scene.

8a. Thranduil: What is your impression of the Elvenking's character and how he is presented in the movie? What do you think of his throne-atrium, including the Elf-guard stations, and the way Thranduil holds court and conducts business? What do you think of Lee Pace's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Elvish, or un-elvish?
As I mentioned above, very elegant and beautifully portrayed. Thranduil does come across as very cold, whereas Thorin is much more hot-blooded and tempered. He’s very much king of all he surveys, which is perhaps why the throne is placed where it is in the middle of the open area. Although it does seem to be a rather inconvenient place to hang out for long periods of time.



8b. Thorin: What is your impression of Thorin's character from this chapter? What do you think of Richard Armitage's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Dwarvish/un-Dwarvish? Have your thoughts about the character changed because of this chapter?
This was the moment Thorin had been waiting for for years, and he finally got a chance to confront the one he viewed as his enemy. The moment when Thranduil said, “you have my word, one king to another” and Thorin’s eyes shifted was brilliant. You could literally see Thorin’s attitude shifting. I absolutely loved Richard’s portrayal, especially when said “You! Lack all honor!” and when he spat out, “you turned your back.” Brilliant delivery.
His costume was muddy, stained and covered in cobwebs, but that only enhanced his look. He was still every inch the king, even as he contrasted the perfectly dressed Thranduil.



8c. Balin: What is your impression of Balin's character from this chapter? What do you think of Ken Stott's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Dwarvish/un-Dwarvish? Have your thoughts about the character changed because of this chapter?
Balin is always playing the diplomat, and I continue to love Ken Stott’s portrayal.



Elf vs Dwarf:
9a. How do you find this confrontational exchange between Thranduil and Thorin? Was it expected? Was this chapter written well? How about the execution?
The execution was excellent. This was a great scene between two amazing actors and I only wish it were longer (and hopefully, it will be in the EE)



9b. What words would you use to describe the contrasts or similarities you see between Thranduil and Thorin?
Cold vs. hot. Elegant vs. earthy. Sinuous vs. smouldering. Light vs. dark.


10. What do you think about the forced perspective when the two characters are in the same frame? Was the use of angles enhancing or taking away from the characters in terms of their respective racial traits, bearing and station as Kings, their physical differences, and the situation?

I thought it was really well done. I even noticed the shadow that fell across Thorin as Thranduil curled around him. Thorin’s posture and bearing gave no hint that he was in the presence of someone who could be viewed as anything other than his equal, regardless of their height differences.



11. What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the background renderings of the Halls?
The halls are very beautiful and evoke yet another incredible elven realm.



12. Any other thoughts about this chapter you would like to share?

Thorin’s hair: we’ve got a real showcase in this chapter, it just looked flat out fantastic covered in cobwebs even as he held his own against that snooty elf. A simply glorious cloud of wavy tresses.

13. Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?
Anything that keeps these two on screen longer works for me!

14. What do you think about the differences and similarities?
I liked that there was an actual conversation instead of Thorin just stubbornly saying they were starving.



15. What other points did you notice?
Sorry, too distracted by all the fabulous hair to notice.



16. Any other comments?
Thanks Lurker! Excellent CHOW!



"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying


“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."


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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 27 2014, 1:55am

Post #10 of 24 (1848 views)
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Thanks, Elarie [In reply to] Can't Post

for your thoughtful answers. Can't agree more re your last answer.



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6c. ...extracting answers...
Elves just don't do torture, not even to orcs or to Gollum when they had him. They are innately too decent for that.

Exactly. I think this trait has been seriously overlooked by everyone eager to jump on Thranduil's case re this scene. I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again: Elves are the poster-race for the Geneva Convention, at least these Elves SmileHeart I wish we have Elves, well ones who would bother with others outside their own navel-gazing, on this plane to enforce compliance in times of conflict. An icy stare from Thranduil, meaningly gripping his sword's hilt should be enough to keep the world at peace.


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four new! posted 16 Jul


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 27 2014, 2:21am

Post #11 of 24 (1852 views)
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Hail MirielCelebel, and love long answers [In reply to] Can't Post


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1. I love that you brought the film score into your analysis because it is my favorite part of all of these movies. Howard Shore tells as much of a story with his music as PJ does in the whole film.

Smile Thanks! I liked it too - I don't buy film score/OST albums per se, but I definitely HEART well-done and thematic scores. LotR and TH, apart from the Nolan Batman films, are prolly among the few movies where I do remember so much of the bits we get to hear in the movie (well, could also be all that re-watching Tongue )



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3. Visually, the Woodland Realm is my favorite place in Middle-earth to date. I am partially bias since my roleplaying days had me as the daughter of Thranduil (sister to Legolas) so I have spent a lot of time envisioning this place even before the movies but PJ literally blew my mind with this realm. It is exactly how I pictured it when I read the book as a kid. The concept designers (Howe and Lee) are visionaries and the special effects teams who made it happen on screen are just geniuses. Very well done.

Nice! I got to admit, I came into ME by way of the LotR movies, though been a life-long sf/fantasy nerd, read through LotR, started looking ME, and well, got enthralled by Thranduil and thought much about Mirkwood and his realm too, Sly TH more than brought Mirkwood, the Realm to life, and of course gave us, well me anyway, a Thranduil so perfect I never dreamt was even possible to realise with life-action.



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4. Lee Pace is amazing. Period. He did such a wonderful job playing Thranduil and his body language and his demeanor are all perfect for the character. Thranduil getting in Thorin's face like that made it so much more personal. Thrandy can be a drama queen, I heartily believed that from reading the book also, and he is in his "You're in my house now, bitch!" mode (yes, imagine him snapping fingers if you must), and this is how he comes across to Throin, who of course doesn't take too kindly to that attitude. I can believe Thranduil knows Dwarvish. Maybe not fluently, but enough to understand him. Again, if relations were good with Erebor back in the day, someone as old as Thranduil would know courtly manners to speak the language of whomever he was visiting. Notice that Kili pouts after hearing Legolas' words to Tauriel? I wouldn't put it past Thorin to have taught his nephews languages well, even if it begrudgingly included Elvish.

Loves LP for sure. And his Thranduil. So much so I started coming out of the lurkmirk and planted myself in the appreciation threads for Thranduil Blush Interesting that Thorin might actually know some Elvish himself. Must gall his stiff-necked Dwarven pride to actually understand some of the Elvish small-talk Tongue



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5. The facemelt....was definitely a surprise when I saw in the theatres. So much so, that I ran home and looked at every book I could get my hands on that talked about Thranduil or his father Oropher to see if they had gone dragon hunting in the north or something. I found nothing like that so this was obviously fabricated by PJ but I'm not opposed to it. Thranduil is no less greedy than the dwarves, though he may not be pro-active in his greed. I wouldn't put it past him to have tried obtaining his due treasure some other way. Dragons covet treasure so to find treasure, theoretically just find a dragon. If this is what happened, and Thranduil got burned (literally), this could have been his experience when he warned Thror. Perhaps a reason he did not come to the aid of the dwarves when Smaug came was so that they could learn a lesson that he warned them about. (I know that NONE of that last assessment follows the book at all, but I'm just trying to explain the face melt within PJ's boundaries and with what he has already given us).

Very good points all and agreed! In particular I like how you describe the nature of his gem-envy. I think those in the other camp tend to overlook warts and all, yet another aspect, the passive nature of his "GREED". He would probably did face the serpents he mentioned for that reason, but of course we know how that venture ended, and his treasury none the fuller. Because word gets around and I do believe Smaug would have paid a visit if he was up to his perfectly-shaped pointy ears in treasure (and that's a lot of treasure considering how tall he is). Afterall he had much more time to gather riches than any Dwarf, and it's only what?, half a wing-flap?, for Smaug to do a stop-over/detour enroute to Erebor.



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7. Richard Armitage is my new favorite actor. Seriously, after AUJ came out I went and grabbed all the seasons of Robin Hood, North and South, and I will be in the theatre August 8 for Into the Storm. He takes each role so personally and just becomes the character without being a full-time method actor. He loved Thorin because he read the story as a kid and he did not want to ruin the role for nerds like us who overanalyze EVERYTHING! He is a geek just like us and he tried to justify everything he did as Thorin. When they suggested he have a short beard, he wanted to know why. He came up with the story that in honor of Thror and Thrain who exited the mountain with "singed beards," Thorin vowed to never grow his out. Genius! So simple and yet so thoughtful. RA is Thorin through and through.

Thanks for that! I didn't know that bit. More power to RA. I just hope we get some little morsels like this re Lee Pace/Thranduil too. Seems like they both have similar approaches to their characters. I am seriously crossing my fingers for more Thranduil/Thorin screentime, in the DOS EE and in BotFA... well, behind the scene stuff would work too. Anything!!! EvilBlush



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Ok I am done. This was a wonderfully written post. It goes along the lines of my project and I love an opportunity to be a total nerd like this. Thanks Lirk!

Thanks! I was worried if I might be getting too *ahem*nerdy with the details and stuff. Happy to know the format worked for you Smile






Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four new! posted 16 Jul


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 27 2014, 2:27am

Post #12 of 24 (1850 views)
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Well, someone has to try to outdo your excellent CHOW... [In reply to] Can't Post

even if it's just by sheer force of numbers Tongue



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Wouldn't you if you had a chance to meet Thranduil? Tongue For all they knew, Thorin was being tortured. Even if they had escaped, the Guards would have swiftly caught them.

*sniff* my motivation is far different from them dwarves. AngelicSly

Exactly, so why do it? Dwarves! Crazy



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I want to know the number of Elves that have died falling off those walkways. Perhaps this is Middle-earth's Logan's Run - when you reach 3000 years old you have to run around the Kingdom without dyeing.

The answer: None. And you know why. Frown


Praise be to the Dwarven purveyor of wisdom. For the record, I am loving Ken Stott's Balin.Smile



Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four new! posted 16 Jul


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 27 2014, 2:38am

Post #13 of 24 (1842 views)
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*applause* Way to go, Kim! Thanks for answering all the questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Always love reading your CHOW responses, such great insight though I guess the Dwarven thralldom got to peek through no matter what Wink
Happy to know the combo images works for you! Smile


A few choice highlights I loved Sly

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2b. What do you think of the Elvenking's lines (eg the use of the word "prosaic", was the double-entendre intentional) and the delivery? What about his body language? What impressions do you get from his interactions with Thorin?
Seems pretty confident/arrogant, and almost playful, like a cat with a mouse. He’s probably been rather bored, so relishes an opportunity to have a chat.

4e. What do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the exchange thus far?
“Well, this is the most excitement we’ve had around here in years!”


5d. Again, what do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the facemelt of their King?
“On second thought, I’m just going to stand here quietly and pretend I haven’t seen or heard anything.”





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9b. What words would you use to describe the contrasts or similarities you see between Thranduil and Thorin?
Cold vs. hot. Elegant vs. earthy. Sinuous vs. smouldering. Light vs. dark.

Nice. Re "
Light vs. dark", I find it very interesting it can be applied either way, depending on the angle being discussed.




Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four new! posted 16 Jul


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


MirielCelebel
Rivendell


Jul 27 2014, 4:34am

Post #14 of 24 (1851 views)
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So funny you mentioned Batman scores [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I literally just told someone the other day I think the Nolan film scores are my favorite Hans Zimmer scores. Also to your point about Pace and Armitage having similar approaches to their acting, in case you didn't know (though as a Thrandy fan you should), Lee Pace spent a few days camping in New Zealand by himself in order to get in touch with nature and see it as Thranduil would see it. So yes, they both take an extremely personal and impressive approach to their not too dissimilar characters and I too hope to see more interaction between them in DOS EE and BOFA. Thranduil laying Orcrist at Thorin's side will be very emotional for me.

"The Road goes ever on..."

Writing Bliss


Noria
Gondor

Jul 28 2014, 9:22pm

Post #15 of 24 (1832 views)
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Too late now that the trailer's out [In reply to] Can't Post

But I wrote this stuff and I'm going to post it anyway....

PART 1

1a. Why did the Dwarves think they could body-slam their way out of the locked cells? What did you think of the details like KiliFili's hand proportion to the rest of him?

-Because it’s funny, especially Oin and Gloin. Fili’s efforts look pretty half-hearted but I don’t notice anything in particular about his hands. Seriously, I suppose it was worth a try, and some of the Dwarves seem more impetuous than others. Maybe they have no respect for Elven workmanship and think they can batter their way through it.


1b. Why was Balin so sure about the futility of the exercise?

-It seems to me that Balin is more worldly and experienced than some of the other Dwarves and might know more about Elves and their craftsmanship. He’s also smarter and more thoughtful. He’s a high ranking Dwarf who may have been to the Woodland Realm in better times.

2a. Why has Thorin been singled out for an audience with the Elvenking? How did the Elvenking deduced so much without Thorin's cooperation?

-Thranduil surely recognizes Thorin and knows he must be the leader of the group. Presumably Thranduil knows the significance of the Arkenstone and that with it Thorin can rally the Dwarven armies. Thirteen Dwarves couldn’t be planning an actual attack on Erebor so something stealthy would seem to be indicated. Also, maybe Thranduil has something of a mind reading thing going on like Galadriel.

2b. What do you think of the Elvenking's lines (eg the use of the word "prosaic", was the double-entendre intentional) and the delivery? What about his body language? What impressions do you get from his interactions with Thorin?

-I will be the one to admit that I don’t get the double-entendre.

-My impression is that Thranduil thinks a lot of himself and not much of Dwarves. I like Lee Pace’s performance; he projects the Elvenking’s cold arrogance adroitly with voice, expression and body language, in the way he holds himself and moves around so comfortably and elegantly in his space.

2c. What is your impression of the throne-atrium and its setting?

-I love the throne area and how it’s built out of the roots and stone of the cavern, like the rest of the place. Like the similar areas in Erebor and the Goblin caves, it’s placed high up in the middle of a huge open subterranean space. The more I look at Thranduil’s realm, the more I enjoy the open concept, that it is essentially one huge chamber. I like how the camera flows from the dungeons up to the throne room, revealing walkways and galleries everywhere with Elves going about their business.

3a. Why did the Elvenking offer the deal to Thorin? He seemed to think little of Thorin's chances for success, judging from his tone and attitude thus far. How would he be sure he would get the white-gems if Thorin does accept the deal (afterall, Thror played keepaway right when the Elvenking was about to touch the gems)?

-Thranduil has nothing to lose by releasing Thorin and his companions If Smaug kills them he has lost nothing except some potentially troublesome prisoners. If they succeed in getting into the Mountain to steal back the Arkenstone, they might as well grab the white gems as well. If Thorin reneges on the deal and withholds the gems, Thranduil is still better off; the gems would be more accessible if Thorin had them than they are with Smaug sitting on them.

3b. What is going through Thorin's mind as the Elvenking talks about the white-gems. Was he thinking back on the scene in AUJ where Thror literally denied the Elvenking in his face, and his own reaction to it, and just realising the importance of the gems to the King or perhaps the Elves?

-He is probably remembering that scene, maybe with some shame, but his hatred of Thranduil would surely cancel that out. I think Thorin is hearing Thranduil out but with absolutely no intention of cooperating with him, just waiting for his opportunity to tell the Elf what he thinks of him. Good point about Thorin possibly only now fully realizing the importance of the white gems to the Elvenking.

3c. What was your impression of the Elvenking's apparently complete but quick change in moods from his amusement at Thorin's discomfort to have his true objective laid bare, his smile while expressing empathy for Thorin's desire to find the Arkenstone, to his rapture about the White Gems, and his solemn offer of help?

-I think that there is nothing sincere about Thranduil here but his desire for the white gems and that he cares nothing for Thorin or his quest. He is trying to play Thorin but the Dwarf’s contempt is too deep for him to go along.

3d. Did the Elvenking miss or misinterpret Thorin's dismissive snort when he said, "a favour for a favour"? Given the wrong footing their last encounter ended on, with the Elvenking riding away as Thorin beckons for help during Smaug's attack, why does the King not seem to think Thorin might bear some grudge?

-Thranduil strikes me as pretty cold and egotistical and perhaps he doesn’t get that Thorin is all fire. Maybe he thinks that common sense would make Thorin see that a deal with Thranduil is his best option. Thorin isn't always big on common sense.

4a. Thorin seemed to hold Thranduil accountable for all the misfortunes of Erebor, including the aftermath and displacement of the Dwarves from Smaug's occupation. Why would that be? Is this fair, considering that if the tables were turned, Thorin or Thrain/Thror might make the same decisions?

-My impression is that Thorin blames Thranduil for failing to assist his people after Smaug’s invasion, perhaps for refusing to attack the dragon but certainly for failing to assist the refugees. His words make it difficult to tell exactly what he means. But as often happens with people, Thorin has focused all his rage and frustration on one point, one person, justifiably or not. Rationality or logic have nothing to do with it.

4b. Thorin did not mention Smaug or dragons specifically, the nearest was the "Die a death of a thousand flames" curse he spat in Dwarvish but Thranduil seemed to get the connection and was angered by Thorin's implied charge that he had no idea about suffering dragon wrath. Would Thranduil know Dwarvish given the secretive nature of Dwarves, and his own isolationist stance (which is demonstrated in the later scene with Tauriel)?

-Thranduil probably realizes that Thorin is pissed over the events after Smaug’s attack. Maybe he even feels a bit of guilt about it, just enough for his mind to make the leap. He might even understand some dwarvish, since he’s been around for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

4c. Thorin has certainly hit a raw nerve. Do you think Thranduil is more angry with Thorin's presumption that he and his people were the only ones to have suffered greatly, or was Thranduil simply rattled by Thorin's insolence?

-Both. He might resent Thorin’s implications of cowardice when he knows all too well the cost of going up against a dragon. He is also probably unused to being faced with defiance and contempt.

4d. What do you think of the portrayal of the Elvenking's agility, speed and condescension towards Thorin and his quest?

See 2b above.

4e. What do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the exchange thus far?

-Thranduil is later described by his butler as “our ill-tempered king” so they may have witnessed such things before or are at least might not be too surprised.

5a. Was the facemelt a surprise to you? Do you think it's an illusion or was the usually perfect mien of the Elvenking the illusion?

-I was completely surprised. It’s hard to say if it’s real or not but I am inclined to think it is. What would be the point of showing Thorin an illusion as proof that Thranduil had faced dragons? Thorin already knows what dragon fire can do.

-On another thread, I talked how Thranduil’s family history from Unfinished Tales is out of bounds to the writers of these movies. I think that’s why we were shown Thranduil’s burned face when he speaks of dragon fire and facing the serpents of the North. They wanted to provide a reason for his isolationism and refusal to help the Dwarves of Erebor that is totally different from his book history and is more than him just being a jerk. Once burned, twice shy.

5b. Was it a surprise to learn that Thranduil had warned Thror of the consequence for his abject greed, or that Thror did not heed the warning?

-Not really, especially if Thranduil has experience of dragons. If Thror was so obsessed, he would probably ignore the warning. Maybe that’s why Thror so gleefully withheld the white gems when Thranduil came to get them, out of spite.

5c. What would be going through Thorin's mind during this time?

-Thorin would probably be as surprised as the audience about all this, but I doubt it changed his mind about anything. In fact the remark about his grandfather probably enraged him more.

5d. Again, what do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the facemelt of their King?

-I would suppose that all his people know about Thranduil’s injury since he probably wasn't alone when he got it. The guards were probably trying to pretend they weren't there or at last had heard nothing.

6a. Why does Thranduil express it almost like a personal disappointment that Thorin is like Thror?

-He wants his gems, he wants to make a deal with Thorin. It’s all part of the attempted manipulation.

6b. What is Thorin thinking at this point?

Thorin is thinking “Screw you!”
6c. Why did Thranduil say that? Given that this is his fortress, and all the cards are essentially in his hands, why would he be willing to wait for Thorin to be cooperative, instead of extracting answers or information by other, presumably quicker, means?

-Elves are essentially good, even when behaving badly, and I’m pretty sure that they don’t torture. Plus, as he said, the immortal Thranduil has all the time in the world and Thorin doesn't.

6d. Does it seem like Thranduil's parting shot was a response to something Thorin said, probably some blustering that's been cut from the TE?

-Can’t say that their parting struck me that way.

6e. Are there other bits that informs the exchange which gave you the same feeling? That something has been cut or edited out? What are they?

-Not really. The scene feels complete to me or at least is edited well enough that it seems seamless.

7a. It seems like Balin is not concern about any possible bodily hurt to Thorin, being more concerned about a deal than Thorin's personal well-being. Balin really seems to know how the cookie crumbles, or rather, the stardust sprinkles with the Elvenking. Why would that be?

-As I said above, Balin is old and experienced and had probably had dealings with Elves before. IMO he would not expect Elves to torture anyone.

7b. Why didn't Thorin take the deal? Is he being unrealistic to think there's another possible way out? Was he even thinking about the alternative when he threw Thranduil's offer back at him?

-Thorin is too stubborn and full of pride and resentment to take the deal, even though it made sense to do so. I suppose he was referring to Bilbo when he spoke of a deal not being their only hope, but I don’t get that. I didn’t think the the Dwarves knew about the Ring, so what would Thorin expect Bilbo to do? Though I hope he was thinking he had another option when he blew off Thranduil’s offer.

General questions

On characters and acting:

8a. Thranduil: What is your impression of the Elvenking's character and how he is presented in the movie? What do you think of his throne-atrium, including the Elf-guard stations, and the way Thranduil holds court and conducts business? What do you think of Lee Pace's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Elvish, or un-elvish?

-I think Thranduil comes across as cold, egotistical, arrogant, manipulative, determined and all around a great character. I love Lee Pace’s performance, even if his accent is iffy. To me he captures perfectly the age and otherness of the Elves, in a way that few other of the actors except Cate Blanchett achieve as successfully. He’s not as old as Galadriel but could have been born in the First Age for all we know. Pace’s physical performance is especially interesting: he twists and sidles in an almost snake-like manner as he dances around the Dwarf and contorts himself to get into Thorin’s face.

-I love Thranduil’s costume here as well as his others. They are beautiful, look great on the tall and elegant Pace and he works them well.

8b. Thorin: What is your impression of Thorin's character from this chapter? What do you think of Richard Armitage's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Dwarvish/un-Dwarvish? Have your thoughts about the character changed because of this chapter?

-Both Thorin and his costume are looking pretty beat up here but still magnificent. I don’t think we learned anything new about him except maybe how extreme his dislike of Thranduil is and how much he blames him. We already knew that Thorin carries quite a chip on his shoulder and now we know that it will blind him to the most rational course, in this case, taking Thranduil’s offer.

8c. Balin: What is your impression of Balin's character from this chapter? What do you think of Ken Stott's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Dwarvish/un-Dwarvish? Have your thoughts about the character changed because of this chapter?

-My impression of Bain hasn’t really changed. He is rational and pragmatic; he would have taken the deal to get the Dwarves released and on their way again.
IMO Ken Stott's performance is excellent.

Elf vs Dwarf:

9a. How do you find this confrontational exchange between Thranduil and Thorin? Was it expected? Was this chapter written well? How about the execution?

-I liked it – everything seemed to make sense given what we know of Thorin and learned about Thranduil. The acting was great, though I sometimes find that Armitage goes a bit over the top when Thorin is angry (blasphemy I know).

9b. What words would you use to describe the contrasts or similarities you see between Thranduil and Thorin?

-As I said above, Thranduil is ice and Thorin fire, though of course each has elements of other qualities as well. Both are stubborn and sure they are right.

10. What do you think about the forced perspective when the two characters are in the same frame? Was the use of angles enhancing or taking away from the characters in terms of their respective racial traits, bearing and station as Kings, their physical differences, and the situation?

-It worked for me. I thought that Thorin looked like a Dwarf, and Thranduil like an Elf and their interaction was seamless. Thranduil has all the power in the scene, so it works to make Thorin look short and stumpy, which he is.

11. What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the background renderings of the Halls?

- Thranduil’s halls are one of my favourite locations in all of the movies and I thought the CG was excellent. I like Thranduil’s moody theme.

13. Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?

-Not here. The scene I would like to see occurs before the Dwarves are imprisoned, when all are brought before Thranduil.

PART 2 (Book Spoilers aka Let's nerd some)

14. What do you think about the differences and similarities?

-For me, though it is condensed and plays out slightly differently, the essence of this sequence is the same as what occurs in the book. The Dwarves are imprisoned with little hope of escape. Thorin is brought before Thranduil, who decides to keep him and his companions prisoner until Thorin cooperates. The real differences spring from the fact that the Elvenking and Thorin know each other and that there is a history, bad blood between Thranduil and Thorin and his family. Thranduil has an agenda too, the acquisition of the white gems. Both characters are more extreme, emotional and vivid than their book counterparts.

15. What other points did you notice?

-Thranduil mentions jewels like starlight and only a little later Tauriel speaks of the Starlight Feast and walking among the stars.


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 29 2014, 2:39pm

Post #16 of 24 (1793 views)
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A CHOW response is never late [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Noria. This is great! I sure hope it doesn't get lost amid the frenzy. Smile


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment. But call me Lurker.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Laineth
Lorien

Jul 30 2014, 1:30am

Post #17 of 24 (1803 views)
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LOL... [In reply to] Can't Post

… I agree, Thrandy is such a drama queen! Laugh


In Reply To
5. The facemelt....was definitely a surprise when I saw in the theatres. So much so, that I ran home and looked at every book I could get my hands on that talked about Thranduil or his father Oropher to see if they had gone dragon hunting in the north or something. I found nothing like that so this was obviously fabricated by PJ but I'm not opposed to it. Thranduil is no less greedy than the dwarves, though he may not be pro-active in his greed. I wouldn't put it past him to have tried obtaining his due treasure some other way. Dragons covet treasure so to find treasure, theoretically just find a dragon. If this is what happened, and Thranduil got burned (literally), this could have been his experience when he warned Thror. Perhaps a reason he did not come to the aid of the dwarves when Smaug came was so that they could learn a lesson that he warned them about. (I know that NONE of that last assessment follows the book at all, but I'm just trying to explain the face melt within PJ's boundaries and with what he has already given us).


I have to disagree here. I know TH says, "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he was ever eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old."

It seems to be implying that he wants the treasure not for itself, but for proving that he and his kingdom are just as important, and equal with, other elven kingdoms (past ones included, apparently).

He actually is the most level-headed one, when things go bad:


Quote
The Elvenking had received news from his own messengers and from what the birds that loved his folk, and already knew much of what had happened. Very great indeed was the commotion among all things with wings that dwelt on the borders of the Desolation of the Dragon. The air was filled with circling flocks, and their swift-flying messengers flew here and there across the sky. Above the borders of the Forest there was whistling, crying and piping. Far over Mirkwood tidings spread: "Smaug is dead!" Leaves rustled and startled ears were lifted. Even before the Elvenking rode forth the news had passed west right to the pinewoods of the Misty Mountains; Beorn had heard it in his wooden house, and the goblins were at council in their caves.

"That will be the last we hear of Thorin Oakenshield, II fear," said the king. "He would have done better to have remained my guest. It is an ill wind, all the same," he added, "that blows no one any good." For he too had not forgotten the legend of the wealth of Thror. So it was that Bard's messengers found him now marching with many spearmen and bowmen; and crows were gathered thick above him, for they thought that war was awakening again, such as had not been in those parts for a long time.

But the king, when he received the prayers of Bard, had pity, for he was the lord of a good and kindly people; so turning his march, which had at first been direct towards the Mountain, he hastened now down the river to the Long Lake. - Fire and Water

And:

"Fools!" laughed Bard, "to come thus beneath the Mountain's arm! They do not understand war above ground, whatever they may know of battle in the mines. There are many of our archers and spearmen now hidden in the rocks upon their right flank. Dwarf-mail may be good, but they will soon be hard put to it. Let us set on them now from both sides, before they are fully rested!"

But the Elvenking said: "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold. The dwarves cannot pass us, unless we will, or do anything that we cannot mark. Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation. Our advantage in numbers will be enough, if in the end it must come to unhappy blows." - The Clouds Burst


Really, he's the only one with sense. Thranduil never stakes a claim, he only supports Bard.

I just can't see Thranduil go looking for a dragon. In the AUJ EE Biblo states that Thranduil didn't help because he would not risk the lives of his people.

What I think both the films and the legendarium are trying to get at is the fact that Thranduil Has Trauma. In UT is says,


Quote
The Elvish folk of this realm had migrated from the south, being the kin and neighbours of the Elves of Lórien; but they had dwelt in Greenwood the Great east of Anduin. In the Second Age their king, Oropher [the father of Thranduil, father of Legolas], had withdraw northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien. But as yet there was little to fear between the Greenwood and the Mountains and there was constant intercourse between his people and their kin across the river, until the War of the Last Alliance.

Despite the desire of the Silvan Elves to meddle as little as might be in the affairs of the Noldor and Sindar, or of any other peoples, Dwarves, Men, or Orcs, Oropher had the wisdom to foresee that peace would not return unless Sauron was overcome. He therefore assembled a great army of his now numerous people, and joining with the lesser army of [Amdír] of Lórien he led the host of the Silvan Elves to battle. The Silvan Elves were hardy and valiant, but ill-equipped with armour or weapons in comparison with the Eldar of the West; also they were independent, and not disposed to place themselves under the supreme command of Gil-galad. Their losses were thus more grievous than they need have been, even in that terrible war. [Amdír] and more than half his following perished in the great battle of the Dagorlad, being cut off from the main host and driven into the Dead Marshes. Oropher was slain in the first assault upon Mordor, rushing forward at the head of his most doughty warriors before Gil-galad had given the signal for the advance. Thranduil his son survived, but when the war ended and Sauron was slain (as it seemed) he led back home barely a third of the army that had marched to war.

And:

A long peace followed in which the numbers of the Silvan Elves grew again; but they were unquiet and anxious, feeling the change of the world that the Third Age would bring. Men also were increasing in numbers and in power. The dominion of the Númenórean kings of Gondor was reaching out northwards towards the borders of Lórien and the Greenwood. The Free Men of the North (so called by the Elves because they were not under the rule of Dúnedain, and had not for the most part been subjected by Sauron or his servants) were spreading southwards: mostly east of the Greenwood, though some were establishing themselves in the eaves of the forest and the grass­lands of the Vales of Anduin. More ominous were rumours from the further East: the Wild Men were restless. Former servants and wor­shippers of Sauron, they were released now from his tyranny, but not from the evil and darkness that he had set in their hearts. Cruel wars raged among them, from which some were withdrawing west­ward, with minds filled with hatred, regarding all that dwelt in the West as enemies to be slain and plundered. But there was in Thran­duil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and could not forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever: it would arise again.

And:

When a thousand years of the Third Age had passed and the Shadow fell upon Greenwood the Great, the Silvan Elves ruled by Thranduil retreated before it as it spread ever northward, until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground. Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth. He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves; and compared with the Elves of Doriath his Silvan folk were rude and rustic. Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love. They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.


The part that stands out to me the most is, "But there was in Thran­duil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and could not forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever: it would arise again."

Thranduil carries that fear and trauma every day, in everything he does. So not only does he know the true horror of Mordor, but he's also a survivor of the fall of Doriath.

I think this is what the filmmakes are trying to get at. On the imdb trivia page it says,


Quote
Thranduil's sudden scars reflect a little-emphasized facet of J.R.R. Tolkien's lore: elves' "Fëa" (a metaphysical concept analogous translatable as "soul") occasionally influences the "Hröa" (the fleshly, physical body), particularly under moments of extreme stress. This can manifest as extreme physical changes that reflect the mind's state, in this case deep war scars.


Considering how many times in the legendarium the power of the elves' souls/minds are mentioned, I definitely can see this. It's a great visualization. And as for dragons, we know they became active again in TA 2570 and that they live mainly in the Withered Heath. Considering that is just north of Mirkwood, Thranduil definitely could have had an unpleasant encounter with a dragon.


Kerewyn
Rohan


Jul 30 2014, 1:25pm

Post #18 of 24 (1804 views)
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My answers on this most favourite of scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

2a. Why has Thorin been singled out for an audience with the Elvenking? How did the Elvenking deduced so much without Thorin's cooperation?

1. Legolas would have informed his father of Orcrist found in Thorin’s possession. These are not just any passing dwarves, they are on a mission or have already been in unexpected places. 2. Thranduil would also be highly intuitive, possess all the knowledge and history, and may have put two and two together very quickly. He may have already been expecting something ‘of this ilk’ would happen some time. Or, he may have been taking a stab at the truth, then reading Thorin’s reluctance and body language to confirm his suspicions. As a king himself, with his own desire for lost gems that are precious to him, he’d understand the nature of that desire.

2b. What do you think of the Elvenking's lines (eg the use of the word "prosaic", was the double-entendre intentional) and the delivery? What about his body language? What impressions do you get from his interactions with Thorin?

Thranduil is noted continually standing with his arms behind his back. This stance, I feel, is designed to be intimidating, defying any gesture of welcome or even a show of ‘political friendship’ where the arms may be more outspread, active, expressive. Certainly in our world, it would imply someone who is unwilling to shake hands. It gives him a stern façade, show of power, an impenetrable wall topped by broad shoulders and strong – if concealed – biceps. The impression is one of interrogator – prisoner, rather than the political meeting that would probably be more seemly between two powerful leaders.

2c. What is your impression of the throne-atrium and its setting?
Grand, organic, and an advantageous vantage point, comparing it to, say, the far more traditional / medieval style throne room of Men- thinking Theoden and Denethor here. Those were also built to impress, but Thranduil’s throne atrium equally impresses in its wonderousness.

3a. Why did the Elvenking offer the deal to Thorin? He seemed to think little of Thorin's chances for success, judging from his tone and attitude thus far.
It would seem like too good an opportunity to pass up, to find a group of vault-breakers so driven by desire for two things (1) Arkenstone (2) homeland, that they would risk facing the greatest of firey threats. Thranduil is only driven by one Erebor-related need – the gems. And it’s not been quite enough to get him there. He could be intuitively taking advantage of this doubled need, and the solidness and probably foolhardiness of dwarves.


How would he be sure he would get the white-gems if Thorin does accept the deal (afterall, Thror played keepaway right when the Elvenking was about to touch the gems)?

As discussed once by us Thralls, in fact I believe it was put forth by you Lurker, Thranduil would send a well-armed company of Elven guard to accompany the dwarves, ‘assisting’ them right up to receiving the white gems into their possession, to ensure there was no trickery on the way. Whether they would abandon the company once they’d fulfilled the king’s requirement, or not not fully assist in the retrieval of the Arkenstone, that’s something we’ll never know.

3b. What is going through Thorin's mind as the Elvenking talks about the white-gems. Was he thinking back on the scene in AUJ where Thror literally denied the Elvenking in his face, and his own reaction to it, and just realising the importance of the gems to the King or perhaps the Elves?

Yes I think there was a light bulb moment. Thorin would be realising they are being used, and not being helped from the goodness of anyone’s heart in particular. Coupled with the fact there’s no walking away if the deal is not brokered.

3c. What was your impression of the Elvenking's apparently complete but quick change in moods from his amusement at Thorin's discomfort to have his true objective laid bare, his smile while expressing empathy for Thorin's desire to find the Arkenstone, to his rapture about the White Gems, and his solemn offer of help?

Political charisma.

3d. Did the Elvenking miss or misinterpret Thorin's dismissive snort when he said, "a favour for a favour"? Given the wrong footing their last encounter ended on, with the Elvenking riding away as Thorin beckons for help during Smaug's attack, why does the King not seem to think Thorin might bear some grudge?
This I can’t figure out. Has Thranduil conveniently ‘forgotten’? Maybe he thinks Thorin is truly left without a leg to stand on right now, so he’s offering him some sort of dignified arrangement as an alternative to being imprisoned for trespass. Letting Thorin remain unimprisoned is the ‘favour’ for which Thorin will assist with the gems. Thorin is, of course, looking back further than that. There’s a long line of not letting ‘bygones be bygones’ here. The term ‘favour’ is quite subjective.

4a. Thorin seemed to hold Thranduil accountable for all the misfortunes of Erebor, including the aftermath and displacement of the Dwarves from Smaug's occupation. Why would that be? Is this fair, considering that if the tables were turned, Thorin or Thrain/Thror might make the same decisions?

Hmm! Not entirely answering your question here, but it doesn’t seem entirely fair of Thorin to have that attitude. And wait, Thranduil’s offer does also not seem fair (take it up or rot behind bars) – bingo. Perhaps the Elven King’s loaded deal is a counter-action for the grudge held against himself, which he is aware of. (Yet, this doesn’t work in with his hurt reaction to come.)

4b. Thorin did not mention Smaug or dragons specifically, the nearest was the "Die a death of a thousand flames" curse he spat in Dwarvish but Thranduil seemed to get the connection and was angered by Thorin's implied charge that he had no idea about suffering dragon wrath. Would Thranduil know Dwarvish given the secretive nature of Dwarves, and his own isolationist stance (which is demonstrated in the later scene with Tauriel)?

Just a guess - I imagine Thranduil being proficient in major Middle Earth languages. While he may not be getting about much himself, he may be receiving envoys from other lands, and would certainly not want to be disadvantaged in any way.

4c. Thorin has certainly hit a raw nerve. Do you think Thranduil is more angry with Thorin's presumption that he and his people were the only ones to have suffered greatly, or was Thranduil simply rattled by Thorin's insolence?

Was Thranduil seriously expecting acceptance of his offer? Probably yes. He may feel it is quite a good deal, a magnanimous action, being now prepared to risk some of his kin when previously he would not compromise their safety to help the crisis at Erebor. This willingness to do so at long last, and then being immediately rebuffed, a slap in the face. These two leaders really are seeing things from quite different angles, and never the twain shall meet.

4d. What do you think of the portrayal of the Elvenking's agility, speed and condescension towards Thorin and his quest?

Love it, love all of it. This said to me ‘here is an Elf with serious power’ (sorry Elrond) and I saw the skills from whence Legolas’s ‘superheroism’ came. On the condescension front, I know this has set Thranduil up to be perceived by the newbie viewer as a bit of a bad guy. But I like that he’s not one-dimensional. I like character complexities, and that not everyone on the right side of things is without faults, temptations, bad moods. (I very much liked the arc of movie Faramir.)

4e. What do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the exchange thus far?

‘Bring it, shorty!’

5a. Was the facemelt a surprise to you? Do you think it's an illusion or was the usually perfect mien of the Elvenking the illusion?

Hard to say if I was surprised, because I was already in a state of extreme wonderment, this being my favourite scene so far. I think the face melt is an illusion, though it is performed with a memory of pain, and is not without pain to summon forth.

5d. Again, what do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the facemelt of their King?
‘Ah, the party trick that keeps on giving.’

6a. Why does Thranduil express it almost like a personal disappointment that Thorin is like Thror?

He really did expect a different outcome, I think, and a softening of past attitudes from the ‘younger generation’. Wounded pride too perhaps – though inability to reach a successful negotiation, though Thranduil’s tactics aren’t the most tactical.

6b. What is Thorin thinking at this point?
It is unprintable.

6c. Why did Thranduil say that? Given that this is his fortress, and all the cards are essentially in his hands, why would he be willing to wait for Thorin to be cooperative, instead of extracting answers or information by other, presumably quicker, means?

Essentially, I believe Thanduil would prefer cooperation than resorting to more extreme methods. I think he is hard, but not cruel.

6d. Does it seem like Thranduil's parting shot was a response to something Thorin said, probably some blustering that's been cut from the TE?

Oooh! I hope so! If this scene can be expanded, I’ll be in heaven.

7a. It seems like Balin is not concern about any possible bodily hurt to Thorin, being more concerned about a deal than Thorin's personal well-being. Balin really seems to know how the cookie crumbles, or rather, the stardust sprinkles with the Elvenking. Why would that be?

I think Balin is not a hot head, but a philosopher, a negotiator. Things could be achieved through the right parlance.

7b. Why didn't Thorin take the deal? Is he being unrealistic to think there's another possible way out? Was he even thinking about the alternative when he threw Thranduil's offer back at him?


8a. Thranduil: What do you think of Lee Pace's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Elvish, or un-elvish?

Here I just want to mention his woodland crown and how it completes his magnificence. The crown is a wonderful piece of costuming in its own right - now it has become iconic. Add it to Lee Pace’s height, physique and bearing, the whole impression is quite marvellously intimidating – in fact, it is his portrayal of Thranduil that has won this previous hobbit-fancier movie-firster over to the elven side of ME. No more to me are they just pretty ‘elite athlete’ types who swan around in robes, know a few tricks and can walk on top of snow – now they are fey and dangerous beings.

Thank you Lurker for putting up such an intensve and thorough CHOW questions!
SlyLaughSmileSmile

'People don't know where I begin and latex ends, which has always been an ambition for me.' (Martin Freeman)


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 30 2014, 2:16pm

Post #19 of 24 (1779 views)
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loving your responses, Kerewyn! [In reply to] Can't Post

Highlights:

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2b. What do you think of the Elvenking's lines (eg the use of the word "prosaic", was the double-entendre intentional) and the delivery? What about his body language? What impressions do you get from his interactions with Thorin?

Thranduil is noted continually standing with his arms behind his back. This stance, I feel, is designed to be intimidating, defying any gesture of welcome or even a show of ‘political friendship’ where the arms may be more outspread, active, expressive. Certainly in our world, it would imply someone who is unwilling to shake hands. It gives him a stern façade, show of power, an impenetrable wall topped by broad shoulders and strong – if concealed – biceps. The impression is one of interrogator – prisoner, rather than the political meeting that would probably be more seemly between two powerful leaders.

3c. What was your impression of the Elvenking's apparently complete but quick change in moods from his amusement at Thorin's discomfort to have his true objective laid bare, his smile while expressing empathy for Thorin's desire to find the Arkenstone, to his rapture about the White Gems, and his solemn offer of help?

Political charisma.




Quote
6a. Why does Thranduil express it almost like a personal disappointment that Thorin is like Thror?

He really did expect a different outcome, I think, and a softening of past attitudes from the ‘younger generation’. Wounded pride too perhaps – though inability to reach a successful negotiation, though Thranduil’s tactics aren’t the most tactical.

Interesting remark. Just recalled something LP said in an interview along the lines of Thranduil knew what the Company's quest was, and he wasn't interested in letting them through but rather keeping them (safe?) until they saw the futility and turned around and went home.





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4e. What do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the exchange thus far?

‘Bring it, shorty!’

5d. Again, what do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the facemelt of their King?
‘Ah, the party trick that keeps on giving.’


*snigger* Just got to give these a special mention. Interesting how your POV provides quite the different view from Kim's responses SmileWink




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How would he be sure he would get the white-gems if Thorin does accept the deal (afterall, Thror played keepaway right when the Elvenking was about to touch the gems)?

As discussed once by us Thralls, in fact I believe it was put forth by you Lurker, Thranduil would send a well-armed company of Elven guard to accompany the dwarves, ‘assisting’ them right up to receiving the white gems into their possession, to ensure there was no trickery on the way. Whether they would abandon the company once they’d fulfilled the king’s requirement, or not not fully assist in the retrieval of the Arkenstone, that’s something we’ll never know.

Ah, actually the original idea was Avandel's, I just took it and gave it a fan-fic outline Tongue Incidentally, I just mentioned it in a response to Avandel on the TA thread so here it is for ref

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Avandel said: This, I think is excellent. And, the "patient Thranduil" will get what he wants - those white gems. Interestingly too, I wonder - if Thorin HAD gone for it, I'd have to assume Thranduil would have forced the dwarves to take some elves along, to make sure if those gems. Fun to speculate - assuming Gandalf never showed - would the elves have raised their chances of dealing with Smaug? Tho I also believe the dwarves would have tried to ditch any elves at the first opportunity, probably not successfully.
Me: Brilliant! Of course Thranduil wouldn't stoop to grunt work, even for the Gems, so he would probably send a few trusted elites from his personal guard or the Mirkwood SEAL team. Legolas, if he is certified/inducted into the How-To-Slay-A-Dragon-And-Survive prep course by his Daddy, might be tasked to run Operation White Gems, and deflect the Dwarves' counter-intelligence manoeuvres he would anticipate to happen along the way. Delcious Cloak and Dagger, ME style. But I wager the Dwarves might abandon any attempt at subterfuge pretty quick! In any case, Thranduil would be preparing his treasure vault for the White Gems, the appointed Elven operations leader would be stressing out over the successful conclusion of the operation, the Dwarves would be trying to morse-code each other and having a beard-pulling time trying to keep Bilbo up-to-speed, and Thorin would be extra-difficult to live with while the Elves are with them.




Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment. But call me Lurker.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 30 2014, 2:28pm

Post #20 of 24 (1781 views)
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Nay, just throwing Kingly weight around =P [In reply to] Can't Post

But wow, Laineth! Thanks for weighing in and the surely lovingly typed-up quotes. Smile



Quote
He actually is the most level-headed one, when things go bad

Bingo! I think his past experiences informs his composure and cool Heart



Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment. But call me Lurker.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Jul 30 2014, 4:37pm

Post #21 of 24 (1785 views)
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Slightly late response [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, the boards have gotten busy! It took me a minute to find this thread again. Here are my responses:


1a. Why did the Dwarves think they could body-slam their way out of the locked cells? What did you think of the details like KiliFili's hand proportion to the rest of him?
Body slams are the dwarves’ answer to everything. Can’t get thought the door? Body slam it. Hungry? Do a body slam. Want to make the cute lady dwarf who lives next door fall for you? Body slam her.

Honestly if nobody had said anything I wouldn’t have thought about the dwarves’ hand proportions in comparison to the rest of their bodies, so I don’t have a comment on that.

1b. Why was Balin so sure about the futility of the exercise?
Maybe back in the day when things were more peaceable between the kingdoms, Balin might have traveled through Thranduil’s realm for the sake of trade? I guess even if he just passed through with other dwarves and didn’t stop, he still could have been able to tell how tight security is there.


2a. Why has Thorin been singled out for an audience with the Elvenking? How did the Elvenking deduced so much without Thorin's cooperation?
I would guess that Thorin is singled out because he is not only the leader of the company of dwarves, but also the King-Under-the-Mountain-in-waiting.
Thranduil was probably able to deduce everything without Thorin’s cooperation simply because he’s ancient, and highly intelligent. Really, what else would these particular dwarves be doing, heading in that particular direction? The 13 of them obviously can’t take the mountain back from Smaug by force, at least, not by themselves. One would have to question why it’s just the 13 of them anyway? Would no other dwarves come with them? Why? Because Thorin isn’t a king yet. What would make him king in the eyes of the other dwarves? The Arkenstone. Where is the Arkenstone? In the mountain. There’s a dragon in the mountain. How will they get the Arkenstone out with a dragon in the mountain? Burglary of course! And burglars rarely just walk in the front door, so there must be another way in.

My question is, which dwarf, if any, did Thranduil think was playing the role of burglar?

2b. What do you think of the Elvenking's lines (eg the use of the word "prosaic", was the double-entendre intentional) and the delivery? What about his body language? What impressions do you get from his interactions with Thorin?

So…much…SASS!


2c. What is your impression of the throne-atrium and its setting?

Ooooooh! Aaaaaaah! Pretty! I imagined it being a little darker when reading the book, but still just as spacious. I really like what they did with it!


3a. Why did the Elvenking offer the deal to Thorin? He seemed to think little of Thorin's chances for success, judging from his tone and attitude thus far.
If the dwarves want to waste their time trying to take back the mountain, they might as well do something useful while they’re at it.

How would he be sure he would get the white-gems if Thorin does accept the deal (afterall, Thror played keepaway right when the Elvenking was about to touch the gems)?

He has an army, so…


3b. What is going through Thorin's mind as the Elvenking talks about the white-gems?


I thought the look on Thorin’s face when Thranduil’s eyes started sparkling said something like, “How the heck is he doing that?”


Was he thinking back on the scene in AUJ where Thror literally denied the Elvenking in his face, and his own reaction to it, and just realizing the importance of the gems to the King or perhaps the Elves?

I would think so.


3c. What was your impression of the Elvenking's apparently complete but quick change in moods from his amusement at Thorin's discomfort to have his true objective laid bare, his smile while expressing empathy for Thorin's desire to find the Arkenstone, to his rapture about the White Gems, and his solemn offer of help?

Well, my mom thought he seemed crazy. I just thought he seemed wild and unpredictable, like a wisp of smoke that is just barely under control, as we have discussed before.


3d. Did the Elvenking miss or misinterpret Thorin's dismissive snort when he said, "a favour for a favour"? Given the wrong footing their last encounter ended on, with the Elvenking riding away as Thorin beckons for help during Smaug's attack, why does the King not seem to think Thorin might bear some grudge?

I doubt, with his elven sense of hearing, that he missed the snort, or that he doesn’t think Thorin would hold a grudge, but he may have been hoping that Thorin was desperate enough to get to his destination that he would take the deal just to get out of there, A.S.A.P.


4a. Thorin seemed to hold Thranduil accountable for all the misfortunes of Erebor, including the aftermath and displacement of the Dwarves from Smaug's occupation. Why would that be? Is this fair, considering that if the tables were turned, Thorin or Thrain/Thror might make the same decisions?

To an extent, I understand Thorin’s feelings. At first glance it does seem like Thranduil heartlessly turned his back on the dwarves. However, when you think about it, what did Thorin expect him to do? Risk the lives of his people to confront a dragon? Also, I think you’re right that if the tables were turned, Thrain/Thror probably would have done the exact same thing.

4b. Thorin did not mention Smaug or dragons specifically, the nearest was the "Die a death of a thousand flames" curse he spat in Dwarvish but Thranduil seemed to get the connection and was angered by Thorin's implied charge that he had no idea about suffering dragon wrath. Would Thranduil know Dwarvish given the secretive nature of Dwarves, and his own isolationist stance (which is demonstrated in the later scene with Tauriel)?
It’s possible that he wasn’t always as isolationist as he is now, and elves seem to be pretty quick on the uptake about things, so if he had the chance to hear dwarvish on a regular basis at some point, he may have picked up some words. At least enough to know he was talking about flames. (Kind of like me and my limited knowledge of Spanish. I may not know exactly what someone is saying but I know enough that I can sometimes have a general idea of the topic of conversation.)


4c. Thorin has certainly hit a raw nerve. Do you think Thranduil is more angry with Thorin's presumption that he and his people were the only ones to have suffered greatly, or was Thranduil simply rattled by Thorin's insolence?

A little of both.

4d. What do you think of the portrayal of the Elvenking's agility, speed and condescension towards Thorin and his quest?

EPIC SASS!

4e. What do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the exchange thus far?
“Annoying dwarves…I sure hope we don’t get stuck with them.”


5a. Was the facemelt a surprise to you? Do you think it's an illusion or was the usually perfect mien of the Elvenking the illusion?


Heck, yes. It surprised me so much when I first saw DOS, I totally missed several minutes of the dialog afterwards. I want it to be an illusion, but I don’t know.

5b. Was it a surprise to learn that Thranduil had warned Thror of the consequence for his abject greed, or that Thror did not heed the warning?



No.

5c. What would be going through Thorin's mind during this time?

He was pretty angry by this point, so I’d say the things going through Thorin’s mind are not something that a young lady such as myself should repeat. Tongue


5d. Again, what do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the facemelt of their King?

“So much for not getting stuck with the dwarves. Who wants to place a bet on how long they’ll be here?”


6a. Why does Thranduil express it almost like a personal disappointment that Thorin is like Thror?
Deep down inside, he’s really a nice elf (she said hopefully) and, similar to Elrond, realizes that if Thorin is just like Thror he’ll go insane too. He was hoping Thorin would be better than that.

6b. What is Thorin thinking at this point?


“This is the reason why I hate elves.Mad"


6c. Why did Thranduil say that? Given that this is his fortress, and all the cards are essentially in his hands, why would he be willing to wait for Thorin to be cooperative, instead of extracting answers or information by other, presumably quicker, means?
To paraphrase a few lines in the book, the Mirkwood elves may be less wise and more dangerous than other elves, but they are still Good People. Thranduil isn’t going to extract answers via “quicker means” because Thorin isn’t a threat to him or his people. (unlike that unfortunate orc)

6d. Does it seem like Thranduil's parting shot was a response to something Thorin said, probably some blustering that's been cut from the TE? Yes.



7a. It seems like Balin is not concern about any possible bodily hurt to Thorin, being more concerned about a deal than Thorin's personal well-being. Balin really seems to know how the cookie crumbles, or rather, the stardust sprinkles with the Elvenking. Why would that be?
Because he’s older, wiser, and possibly has been through the area before. Also, he strikes me as the kind of dwarf that is curious about others and would rather learn about them and use the info to make peaceful negotiations than anything else.


7b. Why didn't Thorin take the deal? Is he being unrealistic to think there's another possible way out? Was he even thinking about the alternative when he threw Thranduil's offer back at him?
Stubbornness and pride, I suppose.

Maybe, maybe not. People make rash decisions when they are angry, so I’d say he did and simply didn’t care at that point.


8a. Thranduil: What is your impression of the Elvenking's character and how he is presented in the movie? What do you think of his throne-atrium, including the Elf-guard stations, and the way Thranduil holds court and conducts business? What do you think of Lee Pace's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Elvish, or un-elvish?
Love him and everything else. Heart

8b. Thorin: What is your impression of Thorin's character from this chapter? What do you think of Richard Armitage's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Dwarvish/un-Dwarvish? Have your thoughts about the character changed because of this chapter?

He behaved pretty much as I expected. Like a frustrated king-in-waiting who is angry, stubborn, proud and feels betrayed.



8c. Balin: What is your impression of Balin's character from this chapter? What do you think of Ken Stott's portrayal - eg speech, movement, look, costume? Was there anything that was particularly Dwarvish/un-Dwarvish? Have your thoughts about the character changed because of this chapter?

Balin has never been able to do any wrong in my eyes. I Heart him and how wise, humble, patient and composed he is at all times.



9a. How do you find this confrontational exchange between Thranduil and Thorin? Was it expected? Was this chapter written well? How about the execution?
Great. Yes. Yes. Awesome.Cool

9b. What words would you use to describe the contrasts or similarities you see between Thranduil and Thorin?

They’re both stubborn, proud and emotionally hurt.


10. What do you think about the forced perspective when the two characters are in the same frame? Was the use of angles enhancing or taking away from the characters in terms of their respective racial traits, bearing and station as Kings, their physical differences, and the situation?

No comment. I don’t have much knowledge or opinion on the technical stuff.


11. What do you think of the music and the sound effects for this chapter? What about the CGI, notably the background renderings of the Halls?
It was all awesome and beautiful, IMO.



13. Are there any parts that you are looking forward to being expanded on in the EE?

Everything Thranduil realated!

"Love woke me up this morning
With a memory
Love came and whispered a story
That awakened a dream,

I am a dreamer, take me higher
Open the sky up, start a fire
I believe even if it's just a dream"
~"Dreamer" by Bethany Dillon



Kerewyn
Rohan


Jul 31 2014, 7:40am

Post #22 of 24 (1768 views)
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Response to some responses [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
2a. Why has Thorin been singled out for an audience with the Elvenking? How did the Elvenking deduced so much without Thorin's cooperation?
I would guess that Thorin is singled out because he is not only the leader of the company of dwarves, but also the King-Under-the-Mountain-in-waiting.
Thranduil was probably able to deduce everything without Thorin’s cooperation simply because he’s ancient, and highly intelligent. Really, what else would these particular dwarves be doing, heading in that particular direction? The 13 of them obviously can’t take the mountain back from Smaug by force, at least, not by themselves. One would have to question why it’s just the 13 of them anyway? Would no other dwarves come with them? Why? Because Thorin isn’t a king yet. What would make him king in the eyes of the other dwarves? The Arkenstone. Where is the Arkenstone? In the mountain. There’s a dragon in the mountain. How will they get the Arkenstone out with a dragon in the mountain? Burglary of course! And burglars rarely just walk in the front door, so there must be another way in.



LOL - so Thorin has essentially been "Sherlocked"! Laugh (Oooh! I'm loving the Martin / Benedict association there...)



Quote
3c. What was your impression of the Elvenking's apparently complete but quick change in moods from his amusement at Thorin's discomfort to have his true objective laid bare, his smile while expressing empathy for Thorin's desire to find the Arkenstone, to his rapture about the White Gems, and his solemn offer of help?

Well, my mom thought he seemed crazy. I just thought he seemed wild and unpredictable, like a wisp of smoke that is just barely under control, as we have discussed before.


and

KIM:
It’s like he couldn’t wait to jump on a chance to get those jewels after all this time, and he figures he’s holding all the cards, so he can dangle the offer of freedom, but can’t really hide what he wants so badly.



Am not sure why / how this had escaped me, but I'm liking this notion you've both brought up. As much as he wants to appear composed and completely under control - Thranduil might be barely containing himself. Possible gems, after so long! Potential elation escaping through the cracks, and mercurial mood swing when it seems Thorin's going to throw a spanner in the works.



'People don't know where I begin and latex ends, which has always been an ambition for me.' (Martin Freeman)


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 31 2014, 11:45am

Post #23 of 24 (1758 views)
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Great answers, Eruvandi [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially

Quote
1a. Why did the Dwarves think they could body-slam their way out of the locked cells? What did you think of the details like KiliFili's hand proportion to the rest of him?
Body slams are the dwarves’ answer to everything. Can’t get thought the door? Body slam it. Hungry? Do a body slam. Want to make the cute lady dwarf who lives next door fall for you? Body slam her.

3a. Why did the Elvenking offer the deal to Thorin? He seemed to think little of Thorin's chances for success, judging from his tone and attitude thus far.
If the dwarves want to waste their time trying to take back the mountain, they might as well do something useful while they’re at it.

3b. What is going through Thorin's mind as the Elvenking talks about the white-gems?
I thought the look on Thorin’s face when Thranduil’s eyes started sparkling said something like, “How the heck is he doing that?”






Quote
3c. What was your impression of the Elvenking's apparently complete but quick change in moods from his amusement at Thorin's discomfort to have his true objective laid bare, his smile while expressing empathy for Thorin's desire to find the Arkenstone, to his rapture about the White Gems, and his solemn offer of help?

Well, my mom thought he seemed crazy. I just thought he seemed wild and unpredictable, like a wisp of smoke that is just barely under control, as we have discussed before.

This!Heart He does seem to just be, and very in the moment! Love the way LP does it. Doesn't seem acted or forced, you know? Just is. I think there's not many who cna do it the way he delivered it. Though I can see why your mom would think he seemed crazy.




Quote
2a. Why has Thorin been singled out for an audience with the Elvenking? How did the Elvenking deduced so much without Thorin's cooperation?
I would guess that Thorin is singled out because he is not only the leader of the company of dwarves, but also the King-Under-the-Mountain-in-waiting.
Thranduil was probably able to deduce everything without Thorin’s cooperation simply because he’s ancient, and highly intelligent. Really, what else would these particular dwarves be doing, heading in that particular direction? The 13 of them obviously can’t take the mountain back from Smaug by force, at least, not by themselves. One would have to question why it’s just the 13 of them anyway? Would no other dwarves come with them? Why? Because Thorin isn’t a king yet. What would make him king in the eyes of the other dwarves? The Arkenstone. Where is the Arkenstone? In the mountain. There’s a dragon in the mountain. How will they get the Arkenstone out with a dragon in the mountain? Burglary of course! And burglars rarely just walk in the front door, so there must be another way in.

My question is, which dwarf, if any, did Thranduil think was playing the role of burglar?

ah... good one! I presume if his beloved captains have done their own and presented the reports on the spider skirmish, and the profiles of each dwarf, he might think KiliFili just cos he's the one with the streetsmarts



Quote
4e. What do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the exchange thus far?
“Annoying dwarves…I sure hope we don’t get stuck with them.”


5d. Again, what do you think was going through the minds of the Elven-guards or indeed any Elves within earshot at the facemelt of their King?
“So much for not getting stuck with the dwarves. Who wants to place a bet on how long they’ll be here?

Am loving the different answers we're getting on these 2 questions. Smile


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment. But call me Lurker.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 31 2014, 11:46am

Post #24 of 24 (1757 views)
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T'was good eh? [In reply to] Can't Post

Loved that answer too Sly


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment. But call me Lurker.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk

 
 

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