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Earendil and Elwing

Marilliam Ruinor
Registered User

Jul 22 2014, 9:26pm

Post #1 of 8 (1348 views)
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Earendil and Elwing Can't Post

Just curious here...
Would not Earendil and Elwing be Half-elven, because both of their parents were one elf and one man.. which would make Elrond and Elros quarter-elven.. Or am I missing something here...

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 23 2014, 4:26am

Post #2 of 8 (1214 views)
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I don't think it's meant to be literal [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Eärendil was literally half-Elven. However, Elwing wasn't even quite that, since her great-grandmother (Melian) was a Maia.

Calling Elrond and Elros Half-elven is sort of figurative. It's meant to indicate a mixture of both men and Elves, not a literal statement about their exact heritage.

TolkienBlog.com


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 23 2014, 2:00pm

Post #3 of 8 (1203 views)
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Oh, those Halves.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Earendil was Half-elf, Half-man. Elwing was 62.5% Elf, 12.5% Maia, 25.0% Man.
Elrond and Elros were 56.25% Elf, 6.25% Maia, 37.50% Man.

So Idril is right: the term Half-elven is not meant to be literal.

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 24 2014, 2:36pm

Post #4 of 8 (1169 views)
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mae govannen : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
mae govannen, marilliam ruinor --


yes, earendil and elwing would at least be considered half-elven, and not elven, because of their edain-ish blood.

mandos might have considered them fully edain, for he was the one who grumbled to manwe that they should be killed, for having the temerity to set their mortal feet on the shores of the holy land of aman. their elvish blood didn't seem to be of any account to him.

regarding elwing's parentage... clearly she has elven and edainish blood, from thingol and nimloth, and beren.

now some folks argue that elwing also has maia ancestry, but that's a bit problematic, as tolkien expressly states that maiar had no native forms, but donned bodies as we would raiment. so what genetic dressing gown did melain the maia don? i think it would have been most likely an elven hroa (body). she was puttering around middle-earth, helping elves, and was ultimately paired with thingol. additionally, she and he eventually produced a child, who was considered elven (there are no arguments with luthien re a maiar destiny vs. an elven one, the way we get with edain / elvish crosses).

tolkien does get a little tricky when he refers to dior in the silmarillion as being the confluence of the beauty of three races (maiar, eldar, edain), but tolkien has professed that the details of biology interest him not him not in the least, so i think it's much more likely that he liked the idea of the merits of three races living in dior, and ennobling all his descendants, rather than actual maiar genes at work.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 24 2014, 5:57pm

Post #5 of 8 (1171 views)
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Just to be an obstructionist [In reply to] Can't Post

Do we have a certified birth certificate of Dior, or better yet, an authenticated video of his delivery as a baby to Luthien? What if he was adopted from Easterlings, or was some Man/Dwarf hybrid? Royal families have ways of shushing all this up, and I smell a conspiracy in how his ultimate destiny was avoided by polite society. It's like being at a royal cocktail party at Menegroth and asking, "So, which Hall of Mandos will Dior wind up in?" and you get an elbow in the ribs and people abruptly change the subject to the weather in the Falas, and isn't the pollen level in Neldoreth so high this year? I think we've barely scratched the surface on this scandal.


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 26 2014, 7:16pm

Post #6 of 8 (1120 views)
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Excellent point [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding Melian's genetic contribution. Did Tolkien ever dig more into the nature of her union with Thingol? I haven't read all of the latter HoME volumes yet, so I'm not sure what I'm missing.

TolkienBlog.com


PhantomS
Rohan


Jul 28 2014, 1:28pm

Post #7 of 8 (1120 views)
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They were indeed Half-Elven [In reply to] Can't Post

but when they were born the rules were fuzzy, to say the least. Tuor sailed West and became an Elf, if the stories were true, and his wife was an Elf of high birth. Dior meanwhile lived in Menegroth as an Elven-lord, even though his father was Man's greatest hero Beren. The Valar didn't really want to discuss this issue as it was probably awkward, as Man and Elf were probably weren't intended to cross-breed.

The matter was only decided when Earendil and Elwing sailed to Aman itself and faced the Valar. Manwe, who spoke for Illuvatar told the two to decide for themselves, and that their sons Elrond and Elros would make the choice if they wanted to sail west as well, down to their Elven descendants. Again, their upbringing afftected their choice to some extent; Elwing was raised as an Elf while Earendil in his heart wanted to be a Man, even though he was raised among Cirdan and the refugees of Balar.

Elrond is the only one called Half-Elven because of all the highborn Elves remaining in Middle Earth, only he can claim to have been part human and to have understood humans well enough compared to others like Galadriel.


wildespace
The Shire

Aug 22 2014, 7:23pm

Post #8 of 8 (1096 views)
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Half-Elven line [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's the Microsoft Excel output Cool




Only Earendil was truly half-elven (50/50). Elwing was more than half elven, with a bit of Maia thrown in from her great-grandmother Melian. So, Elrond and Elros were slightly more than half elven, with a tiny bit of Maia. That line of generation, unifying Human, Elf, and Maia, caried on to Aragorn and Arwen (who, remarkably, were also extremely distant cousins, because Aragorn was a direct descendant of Elros)

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