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Taurious
The Shire
Jul 21 2014, 4:02pm
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Thranduil in the final film
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Considering how little we saw of Thranduil in the theatrical edition of 'Desolation', I'm curious about his character arc in the final film, including: What motivates him to join the battle after being painted as a passivist recluse in the second film? The Elf King as described by Tolkien in the book was not written as such a cynical guy, and was willing to help in the war effort. I think Peter's fleshing out of The Elf King makes for a deeper understanding of his role in the story of The Hobbit, but I'm curious as to how (or even IF, for that matter) his mind will be changed in the matter of fighting for middle earth in the final film. Will he be more of a likable guy, as described by Tolkien, by the end? Thoughts?
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Arandir
Gondor
Jul 21 2014, 4:15pm
Post #2 of 15
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Failing to aid in the sack of Erebor
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I think one of the reasons why PJ decided to show us the scene where Thranduil refuses to aid Thorin and the people of Erebor, is for his character arc to work.
In AUJ, the first glimpse we get of him is of this arrogant, greedy Elven King who betrays his allies.
In DOS, when Thorin confronts him and states his anguish at this betrayal, one can clearly see how Thranduil is pained by this and deeply regrets it (kudos to Lee Pace's performance).
So I think in the third film, he'll be presented with a similar scenario where he has a choice of helping others who have been attacked by the dragon.
Perhaps, learning that Tauriel and Legolas went to Lake-town, he'll be more willing to come to the people's aid and once he witnesses the destruction, his change of heart will be complete.
Just some speculation of course 
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(This post was edited by Arandir on Jul 21 2014, 4:16pm)
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TnuaccayM
Bree
Jul 21 2014, 4:21pm
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He just wants his precious White Gems back while Legolas an Tauriel do the charity work for the people of Lake-town.
I don't think he really cares for the people of lake-town.
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Taurious
The Shire
Jul 21 2014, 4:32pm
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Good point, Arandir! I feel like everything is up in the air with Thranduil's character at this point in the game...Anything could happen. That's mainly what's fueling my anticipation for the tBofA...There's just going to be so much payoff in the last film. Here's hoping Peter and his fellow writers wield this last installment as best as possible!
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macfalk
Valinor
Jul 21 2014, 5:51pm
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Thranduil was hardly a good guy in the book.
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I started a thread with a rant about his greedy behaviour a couple of years ago (if anyone remembers that thread!) where I listed his flaws as a character. I'm liking movie-Thranduil more, though. Lee Pace is the perfect casting!
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 21 2014, 6:01pm
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Ah, you need to look up all the Thranduil Appreciation threads
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Tho not the posts where Thranduil fans like me are just messin' about. There's some good stuff there, and thanks to Ve bringing up Tharanduil's father Oropher I felt I understood Thranduil better:
...Many of the Sindarin elves of Doriath also held strong grudges against the dwarves, since their king Thingol was killed by a group of dwarves from Nogrod during a conflict over the Nauglamir. Oropher again held this grudge into the Second Age. His motivations for moving north were also to avoid the growing dwarf presence in Moria....
http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/...her-king-of-mirkwood
Your question is interesting, in that on the one hand, Thranduil in offering his deal doesn't seem to care if the dragon gets stirred up. On the other hand, assuming Thorin had gone for the deal, I can't think that Thranduil wasn't going to send an entire contingent of elves along, to protect his interests - so while the movie doesn't flesh it out, would Thranduil have just assumed the elves could safely kill a dragon along with the dwarves?
Personally I don't need for Thranduil to be "likeable" (fuzzy-warm) in that to me he is unfathomable, and after reading about the slaughter of his father and the loss of so many elves, I can understand why Thranduil would be isolationist. But I could see him realizing that this darkness needs to be met head-on, or it will consume all. That said, while Thranduil I think may have turned his back, I don't see him as a being that is maliciously cruel, and I am going to assume he is capable of compassion as depicted in the films to the Laketowners. And I do think Thorin's speech unsettles Thranduil, bringing up old memories, showing Thranduil what his behavior was to other races. If Thranduil was truly cold, none of what Thorin said would have disturbed him.
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Taurious
The Shire
Jul 21 2014, 6:40pm
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I see your point, Avandel. Thranduil /does/ have a lot to be bitter about that causes him to think the way he does. I should have fleshed out the context around the use of 'likable'. Perhaps by the end of the story, Thranduil does something noble or something of the sort that gains more of the audiences respect...
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 21 2014, 7:02pm
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Neither was Thranduil a villain.
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I started a thread with a rant about his greedy behaviour a couple of years ago (if anyone remembers that thread!) where I listed his flaws as a character. I'm liking movie-Thranduil more, though. Lee Pace is the perfect casting!
Tolkien had the Elvenking imprison the Dwarves not out of greed, but out of suspicion. In the book, Thranduil does not recognize Thorin Oakenshield, as the Wood-elves have not had close relations with Erebor (or, if they did, it was in the distant past). For all he knows, the members of the company are spies or bandits, or otherwise up to no good. When Thranduil learns of Smaug's demise, he assumes that Thorin & Co. are also dead. He reveals his better nature when news of the destruction of Lake-town reaches him and he leaves part of his host to aid the survivors. Once the Dwarves are revealed to have survived, the Elvenking is reluctant to start a fight just for the sake of treasure alone.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 21 2014, 8:08pm
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Thranduil already has my respect re Thorin's fate
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In that it is he who will return Orcrist to Thorin. That may not sound like a huge thing to some, but like Thorin crossing his own bitter and secretive dwarf mentality and opening his heart to Bilbo - which I think was a huge crossing for this angry king - for Thranduil to give a dwarf that kind of respect I think says volumes about Thranduil. Especially considering Thranduil's long life, and his own ages of memories and knowledge of the clashes between dwarves and elves.
(And all that backstory knowledge of elves and dwarves is thanks to learning from folks on TORn - and that's a good thing! )
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 21 2014, 8:09pm
Post #10 of 15
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The book Elvenking and movie Thranduil
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This is how I see it:
IMO the book Elvenking imprisons the Dwarves for no really good reason except his own paranoia and because he doesn't like their attitude. When news of Smaug's death comes to him, the King sets out with an army to loot the mountain, out of greed. But when he hears of the plight of the Laketown people, he turns aside to help them because in the end he is an Elf, one of the good people. That doesn't stop him from participating in the Siege of Erebor with his new BFF Bard, however long he’s willing to tarry before he begins a war for gold.
IMO movie Thranduil imprisons the Dwarves because he hates Dwarves, but he’s willing to free Thorin and his companions and send them on their way for a share of the loot. When Thorin refuses, he jails them all. I disagree that Thranduil is anguished with guilt because he refused to help the Dwarves when Samug came. Rather I think he’s furious because he isn't accustomed to and doesn't like having anyone call him out, especially Thorin.
Thranduil’s book family history can't enter into it because the writers cannot reference that material even indirectly. I think that’s why we were shown Thranduil’s burned face when he speaks of dragon fire and facing the serpents of the North. They wanted to provide a reason for his isolationism and refusal to help the Dwarves of Erebor that is totally different from his book history and isn't him just being a jerk. Once burned, twice shy.
I have no doubt that for some reason Thranduil’s mind will be changed and he will be at Erebor; in fact haven’t we seen images of him in Dale? One of the many interesting things to discover in TBOTFA will be how that happens. In the end he is still an Elf, one of the good people.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 21 2014, 11:24pm
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Thranduil is anguished with guilt because he refused to help the Dwarves when Samug came. Rather I think he’s furious because he isn't accustomed to and doesn't like having anyone call him out, especially Thorin.
I wouldn't say Thranduil is anguished with guilt myself - perhaps on some level there would be feeling of guilt (I mean re the film character) but he kept his own from being slaughtered by Smaug. Rather I think Thranduil thinks well of himself, but it's unpleasant having a mirror held up to you, because it's harder to think well of yourself. Which is kind of the same thing you posted.
Thranduil’s book family history can't enter into it because the writers cannot reference that material even indirectly. I think that’s why we were shown Thranduil’s burned face when he speaks of dragon fire and facing the serpents of the North. They wanted to provide a reason for his isolationism and refusal to help the Dwarves of Erebor that is totally different from his book history and isn't him just being a jerk. Once burned, twice shy.
Interesting. I keep forgetting there are injunctions on what can and can't be referenced - and in the meantime the readers know it anyway. *Sigh*
In the end he is still an Elf, one of the good people.
Is this irony? Because I read a rather pointed essay on Tolkien's division of good races vs. bad - though I think that is better served on anther forum! 
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 22 2014, 11:45am
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Tolkien created the Elves as the Firstborn of Ilúvatar and the best of the non-Ainur and clearly he revered them above all other races. But the Elves of the Silmarillion often behave very badly and the Elvenking/Thranduil fits that mould. They are all still "good" people in that they eschew the Shadow. And they would turn aside from a looting mission to help people in trouble.
To tell the truth, to me the tired Elves of LotR are a bit insipid and anaemic and I prefer the wayward Elves of The Silmarillion, and Thranduil as well. Film Elrond and Galadriel both have a bit of a bite to them as well and I like that. While "bad boys" do nothing for me, too much goodness doesn't create much drama or interest..
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 22 2014, 6:42pm
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I was never that interested in the LOTR elves myself (and thank you for clarifying)
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Though I think re the books I understand what Tolkien was trying to depict, threaded with many influences of his own knowledge of mythology, religion and folklore.
But on screen, tho I think PJ did a wonderful job re the Rivendell and Lothlorien elves - agree with:
To tell the truth, to me the tired Elves of LotR are a bit insipid and anaemic and I prefer the wayward Elves of The Silmarillion, and Thranduil as well
For me in the LOTR films it's a feeling of impatience with this depicted culture - what I call elves "wafting around", and also within the Hobbit films at Rivendell. That may change with BOFA. For now, Thranduil and the Mirkwood setting are the first time I have been really interested in the elves and their culture, and now also thanks to other TORn members look forward to a wealth of reading. Had no idea elves could be so interesting.
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VeArkenstone
Lorien
Jul 23 2014, 11:14pm
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Thranduil has an interesting history. He is definately not a villian and is definately
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a good guy, but I believe that the pain of immortality has taken a toll on him. I am hoping that PJ will show some of his struggle to become more like the Elf he used to be, less arrogant, more caring for others outside of his borders and actively involved in the struggles of the Middle Earth against the powers of darkness. I believe he will totally redeem himself and it will be a sight to behold.
I am another one who never thought Elf history could be so fascinating, but it is!
Please, call me Ve.
(This post was edited by VeArkenstone on Jul 23 2014, 11:18pm)
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VeArkenstone
Lorien
Jul 25 2014, 2:33pm
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Wanted to forward to you Thranduil's backstory. It is interesting.
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In a nutshell, from UT:
Oropher is a high-ranking Sindarin Elf. He travels around quite a bit looking for a homeland that will not be encroached upon by other Elves, Dwarves, orcs or Men. He comes to The Greenwood and decides this is it. The Greenwood is populated by Silvan Elves, who are considered by other Elves to be lowly, rustic, not as intelligent, not as evolved. They live in small bands scattered throughout the forest and are leaderless. Well, Oropher takes a liking to them, gathers them together and becomes their King. This works out very well for all of them. Oropher, Thranduil and their Silvan Army are at the Battle of Last Alliance at the very beginning of FOTR. Oropher dies when he and his army prematurely charge the Dark Lord's army. They suffer heavy losses and many are driven into the Dead Marshes, the same Dead Marshes that Frodo, Sam and Gollum travel through 3,000 years later. The dead Elf that lured Frodo into the marsh could very well have been a member of Oropher's army. Thranduil returns to the Greenwood as King, but without his father and with only 1/3 of his army.
Before the Battle of the Last Alliance at the end of 2nd age, Isildor travels to the Greenwood to visit with Oropher and Thranduil and for Oropher's sage advice. At the end of the 3rd Age, Aragorn captures Gollum and takes him into the Greenwood (now Mirkwood) to be questioned by King Thranduil. The Dark Lord finds out about this and does not think much of it, until he hears that Gandalf has joined them. Oh, this makes the Dark Lord so angry, and fearful. He sends a moderate force of orcs to Mirkwood to kill who they can and seize Gollum. Things do not go well for the orcs.
As time goes on, many Elfs yearn for the kind of lifestyle that the Silvan Elves have had under Oropher and Thranduil. It is a simpler, less complicated life.
There is much more to Thranduil than has been presented in AUJ and DOS. I think PJ will bring out more. The Thranduil Appreciation threads are full of very interesting Thranduil-related things. (Well, and once in a while Thorin too!).
Please, call me Ve.
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Great insights as usual!
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