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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 17 2008, 6:53pm
Post #301 of 342
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I have a love-hate relationship with ROTK EE. They just failed with the script there. I don't have much beef with the other films (TTT EE made me appreciate TTT, since it has some sort of explanation for Faramir's odd behavior).
In the end, one does have to appreciate the work put in them, even if the script turned, well, odd at a few points. I press "fast forward" myself. Or pretend it's a dream ;)
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 17 2008, 7:06pm
Post #302 of 342
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If Glorfindel had been put in, you would get a whole bunch of this:
"ZOMG GLORFY IS HAWT!"
"Is that Legolas?"
"No, Glorfindel."
"Is he like, Leggy's brother or something?"
"Who's that dude?"
... yea. At least he remained untouched ;P
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 17 2008, 7:12pm
Post #303 of 342
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"Those who fit in so many categories that if you try to label them your head will explode"
In the end, I am NARF. NARF is me. Me is me. Me is... me?
*head explodes*
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 17 2008, 7:19pm
Post #304 of 342
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Hadn't thought of that before, but you're right. *Two* good looking blonde heros would have been too much!
Now you have me wondering if that was the reason why they didn't include the twins 
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 17 2008, 7:20pm
Post #305 of 342
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But considering how they have been completely "Fred and George-ified" in fan fiction, maybe not.
Heck, I wanted Halbarad and the Rangers, too. But then I'd have to see Halbarad die, and I would have cried even more :(
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 17 2008, 7:35pm
Post #306 of 342
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You mean as master pranksters? That's not how I imagine them, either. But I always loved Jay of Lasgalen's twins, for example. Still, it would have been so nice to have them there, too. Two more good looking elven warriors *sigh* I'd gladly trade them for the elves at Helm's Deep.
And I agree about Halbarad. On both accounts. As I've read Boz4pm and SurgicalSteel, wo both use him, I came to love Halbarad even more and would have cried my eyes out if I'd have to watch him die.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 17 2008, 7:50pm
Post #307 of 342
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"Master pranksters" amused me when I was 14. A few years later, not so much, and I really hate seeing it in so much fan fiction. I do believe they had a sense of humor, but... not so childish. Jay of Lasgalen is good. Meckinock is also good, of what little she showed of them (she tends to focus more on Aragorn and Rangers).
Man, if they had to have people there, I would have gladly had the Grey Company at Helm's Deep! They would be a week early, yes, but... yes. I was never a fan of Lorien's elves, who had their own battles against Dol Guldur, anyways!
I have also read Boz4Pm... plan on reading more of her sequel one of these days. I read a little of surgicalsteel, as well. I would read Meckinock, I highly recommend her. Her Halbarad is absolutely amazing. As is her Aragorn. And Gandalf. And OCs. She is one of my favorite authors.
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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 18 2008, 1:06am
Post #308 of 342
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By the 'main 5' I mean The Hobbit, TLOR & The Silmarillion, The 5 books that have been out for 30 years & lay out the history of Middle-earth/Arda from beginning to 'the Dominion of Man'.....
Yes, I know Christopher Tolkien had to make a few 'adjustments' on The Silm, but whatever. The other choice was that it stay in JRR Tolkien's endless pile of unfinished papers forever & would any of us preferred that?
Besides, CT later goes beyond yoeman's work & lays out all the papers his father had on The Silmarillion & lets us see the other 'facts' that are in his father's more obscure papers, like Orodreth's lineage & even the fact that he regreted making up the way Thingol dies in Doriath - very noble of him.
As far as 'The Children of Hurin', are you aware, Squire, that this major work is nothing but a rearranging of already existing & published narratives from The Silmarillion & Unfinished Tales?
I found NOTHING new in this book that I have not been reading for over 25 years......
That makes it hard to call this a major work in a way.
I guess you have a point about Farmer Giles & Leaf By Niggle, etc, but this is THEONE RING.NET, therefore about Middle-earth, so I took it for granted that the focus is on Middle-earth only.
As for fairy stories in general, same thing.
And other's commentaries on Tolkien, couldn't be bothered reading them. It's kinda like bible commentaries - As one bible scholar said, "The commentaries shed light on the bible? Well the bible sheds light on the commentaries."
Same with Tolkien...
His own writings shed light on his books & that's enough for me. I don't want to read some PHD pontificating about the deeper meaning of Tolkien's works & the history of fairy story.
But, that's just me. I'd rather figure out where dragons came from by the variuos quotes Tolkien gives here & there.
Others may say this is a waste of time & for them, they're right.
BTW, NARF's say that catagorizing fans is wrong, but isn't NARF a catagory in itself?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 18 2008, 2:04am
Post #309 of 342
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I guess you have a point about Farmer Giles, Leaf By Niggle, etc., but this is TheOneRing.net, and therefore about Middle-earth, so I took it for granted that the focus is on Middle-earth only.
That is a reasonable supposition, based on the site's name, though the page header does say, "TheOneRing.net: Forged by and for fans of J.R.R. Tolkien", which implies that Tolkien's other works, and life, are also of interest here.
As far as The Children of Húrin, are you aware, squire, that this major work is nothing but a rearranging of already existing and published narratives from The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales? I found nothing new in this book that I have not been reading for over 25 years.
We actually spent three months last year discussing CoH in the Reading Room; squire led one of those discussions and included a textual comparison of his chapter to its earlier incarnations in S and UT. I think there a few hundred words in CoH that hadn't appeared in the previously published texts; a list of "new" material was linked on the Mythopoeic Society mailing list here last spring. And note that squire did not call CoH a major work.
Of course you needn't read others' writings on Tolkien if you don't want to -- that wasn't squire's point. Rather he was stating that there other kinds of fandom than those described in your list.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 18 2008, 3:57am
Post #310 of 342
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Regarding "commentaries on Tolkien".
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And others' commentaries on Tolkien? Couldn't be bothered reading them...
His own writings shed light on his books and that's enough for me. I don't want to read some Ph.D pontificating about the deeper meaning of Tolkien's works and the history of fairy story.
As I said, no one here wants to force you to read scholarly study on Tolkien. But if you participate in discussions here, you are reading "others' commentaries on Tolkien". No work can be read without some kind of context, and each of us brings only so much to the experience. So one idea underlying a forum such as this is that we learn from the perspectives of others. For example, I know very little of either Classical or Celtic myths, and so learned much from FarFromHome's comments on how those two traditions inform Strider's song of Tinuviel that he sings at Weathertop.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 18 2008, 4:14am
Post #311 of 342
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I think this is all highly subjective with no right or wrong, so it's no big deal any way any of us look at it.
As far as CoH goes, a couple of hundred different words in a few hundred pages of text (whatever) is hardly anything new.
Good greif, I do think some people need to get out in the world a little though if they analize things that much to discover the exact words that were changed.
It reminds me of some (Grateful) Deadheads I know who can tell you every song from every concert the band ever played (about 2000 shows & 35,000 songs) as opposed to enjoying the live music from those concerts......
Whatever - different strokes for different folks.
I guess me not knowing there were several hundred changed words in CoH could make me NARF in some folks eyes?
BTW, I realize that writing/reading posts here is participating in other's commentaries & thought that very thing when writing that. But, they aren't so lofty & intellectual as books I've come across & one can pick & choose the topics that appeal to you & skip the ones that don't.
I guess that's what I'm doing by not buying somebody's books though.....
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MrCere
Sr. Staff
Feb 18 2008, 6:24am
Post #312 of 342
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"And in the end it boils down to one thing: Frodo's Journey." - Don't you mean Sam's journey? {NT}
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The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
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MrCere
Sr. Staff
Feb 18 2008, 6:28am
Post #313 of 342
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'Fan' is short for 'fanatic' though isn't it? {NT}
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The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
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Radhruin
Rohan
Feb 18 2008, 6:52am
Post #314 of 342
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Good greif, I do think some people need to get out in the world a little though if they analize things that much to discover the exact words that were changed.
Of course you must be aware that there are many "lurkers" following this discussion. :) Here's one.
Telling any of us (lurkers or active participants) to "get out in the world a little" left me chuckling. I know what I do to pay my way in my earthly life, and I happen to know what several members of these boards do for a "living", or career if you will. I hardly think they waste their hours away here. It's called a hobby, or past-time, or distraction, or just plain recreation. I would hope that is what you call your additions to the boards. If not, you simply must have too much time on your hands.
Me thinks thou protests too much.
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."
~Chesterton
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 18 2008, 6:54am
Post #315 of 342
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Among the first stories I ever read, there were a few of these 'master prankster' ones. But that gets tiring quite soon. A few pranks as long as they're little, yes, or maybe even a few with little Aragorn, to cheer the child up. But not permanent, at their age! That's rather unbelievable, isn't it?
Jay was one of the few good authors I found at ff.net, and she brought me to SoA :)
Thanks for the tip - will check out Meckinock. I believe I've read a bit from her, but I'm not completely sure. It's been a while.
And yes, continue with Boz! Usually I'm avoiding these 'modern day girl falls into ME'-stories at all costs, but this one is so unusual realistic that I was hooked. No Mary Sue, but a very interesting situation.
Hm ... the Grey Company at Helm's Deep instead of the elves? That's an idea! Yes, that would have been great. BUT only under one condition - that PJ didn't kill Halbarad and the twins
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 18 2008, 6:54am
Post #316 of 342
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I think that's interesting you mention 'Sam's journey', McCere.
I see Frodo gets all the credit & people saying Frodo giving inspiration - I won't go back into getting inspiration from fictional characters again
I do think Sam is the one I would most want to emulate though.
Why?
Total self-sacrivice.
He's the one who never thinks of himself, while Frodo is consumed with himself (with good reason albeit). Sam gives Frodo all the food, all the water, even carries Frodo up the mountain when he can't walk himself.
This quote in ROTK, 'Mount Doom', when Sam realizes they're going to die in Mordor best sums his attitude up:
There could be no return.
'So that was the job I felt I had to do when I started' thought Sam: 'to help Mr. Frodo to the last step & then die with him? Well, if that is the job then I must do it'... But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will hardened in him, & he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turned into some creature of stone & steel that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue.
Elsewhere, Sam says in his mind, 'If there's a way back, it leads past the mountain.'
As Frodo says to Sam after the Ring is destroyed when Sam is talking about "Nine-fingered Frodo & the Ring of Doom", "He wouldn't have got far without his Sam."
'
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 18 2008, 7:10am
Post #317 of 342
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I just can't imagine anyone taking the time to split the hairs fine enough to know the several hundred words that weren't contained in Unfinished Tales & The Silmarillion.
This is a work of fiction. To me, to be read & enjoyed, not to be analysed under a literary microscope.
To each their own, however, Just count me way out on that one, I'd be bored to death taking the time to figure it out.
But then again, somebody (not me) else would be bored to death discussing Durin's Bane or The Witch-king of Angmar for a month & a half (but show me who, lol).
Like you said, it's distraction, a hobby, that's all.
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stormcrow20
Gondor
Feb 18 2008, 8:24am
Post #318 of 342
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I agree one hundred percent, Radhruin. Thanks for saying it more eloquently than I would have!
Telling any of us (lurkers or active participants) to "get out in the world a little" left me chuckling. I know what I do to pay my way in my earthly life, and I happen to know what several members of these boards do for a "living", or career if you will. I hardly think they waste their hours away here. It's called a hobby, or past-time, or distraction, or just plain recreation. I would hope that is what you call your additions to the boards. If not, you simply must have too much time on your hands.
Me thinks thou protests too much.
"Good Morning!"
(This post was edited by stormcrow20 on Feb 18 2008, 8:29am)
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a.s.
Valinor
Feb 18 2008, 8:58am
Post #319 of 342
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"Well, I'm back"?
Let me re-phrase a bit: for me, the book is essentially the story of Frodo's journey and that's why I re-read the book. There are more than enough "beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron" in the book to allow for many individual interpretations, I think! I'm not suggesting LOTR is "about" Frodo's journey. I'm suggesting that Frodo's journey is what I re-read the book to follow.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.
"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 18 2008, 9:01am
Post #320 of 342
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thou protesteth? Thou protesteths? protestetheths... eth?
*fails at Early Modern English*
Oh, and did I add that I completely agree with your post, and, yes, you are much more eloquent and diplomatic than I could be!
My LJ
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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 18 2008, 9:03am
Post #321 of 342
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What about the Ring's journey?
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Or poor Sauron? The book is named after him, after all ;)
*dabbles some sugar on your lying cake*
My LJ
My art site
NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 18 2008, 9:06am
Post #322 of 342
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Halbarad lives! Tolkien read a mis-translation of the Red Book, that's it... yes. That's exactly it.
Oh, and Meckinock is simply brilliant. Her Halbarad is my permanent interpretation of Halbarad, so brilliant..
My LJ
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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
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a.s.
Valinor
Feb 18 2008, 9:09am
Post #323 of 342
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it's an interesting thought, the Ring as agent
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I was just saying in the RR that it's interesting the chapter is called "The Ring Goes South" and not something like "The Fellowship Takes The Ring South". The Ring as active member of the Fellowship?
Certainly an interesting interpretation that the book is essentially the story of the journey of the Ring.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.
"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"
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a.s.
Valinor
Feb 18 2008, 9:49am
Post #324 of 342
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without Shippey, I would not have learned
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(even prior to my RR participation!) that there is reason to the rhymes.
Without Flieger, that thinking about time travel for writing his story in competition with Lewis informs some of the dream experience and the Lorien experience in LOTR...and vice versa.
Without Garth, just how profoundly Tolkien's mythology is a product of a traumatized WWI survivor, in certain respects.
Without Rutledge, that there is a "theological basso profundo" underneath the melody.
Just a few examples. I can't imagine repeated re-reading without seeing what scholars and others have written about my favorite book.
Without the RR...well, I can't isolate all the important commentary there over the last several years. I can only be grateful that NEBCFTPFY*.
Of course it's possible to read LOTR many times with enjoyment without reading any analysis or commentary. It's a complex and wonderful story in itself, or we wouldn't still be discussing it so passionately a half century after it was written. Tolkien placed great trust in the "revelatory power of narrative" (to quote Rutledge) So there isn't any "need" to read what scholars write about it. But it sure is interesting.
a.s.
* NE Brigand can find that post for you!
"an seileachan"
"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.
"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 18 2008, 10:02am
Post #325 of 342
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In SurgicalSteel's Happy AU, there's a chapter where Halbarad is reading the Red Book and discovers what Frodo wrote about him. It was all a mistake - and I have already decided that *is* what happened
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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