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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Jul 21 2014, 2:29am
Post #1 of 33
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Cirdan The Shipwright
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I had once posted a thread asking if Elbereth had been inspired by The Virgin Mary, a lot of you had the same idea and also suggested Galadriel was as well. Earlier I thought of another one it may be a bit of a stretch but do you think Cirdan The Shipwright is based on Saint Peter being the keeper of the Keys to Heaven? I just randomly thought of it one day I think I'll just leave it at that though since I don't know much about the character except that he lives at the Grey Havens and allows passage to the west or Heaven if you'd like to see it that way. I'm sure there are are other figures you could draw comparisons to though. I guess it's my nature to see Christian symbolism in everything lol
(This post was edited by Barrow-Wight on Jul 21 2014, 2:30am)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jul 21 2014, 3:15am
Post #2 of 33
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calling malickfan, calling malickfan.... cirdan the shipwright alert ---
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i agree with malickfan on many points.... cirdan is one of the most intriguing characters in middle-earth, and of those who may be deemed the most intriguing, is one of the most underwritten.
check out some of malickfan's thoughtful observations re cirdan....
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=606475#606475
cheers : )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jul 21 2014, 3:16am
Post #3 of 33
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Peter was a fisherman and apparently quite comfortable in boats before he got into that apostle gig.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Jul 21 2014, 3:28am
Post #4 of 33
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I hadn't thought of Peter the fisherman lol I don't know why I didn't see that
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Jul 21 2014, 4:32am
Post #5 of 33
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In Catholic spirituality, Peter being the keeper of the keys of heaven is more of a symbol of authority. It doesn't imply that Peter is a gatekeeper, like he's often portrayed. While Círdan is certainly an important figure, I don't think he's even an authoritarian figure, as Peter is.
One can see some applicability between the Grey Havens and the Church, though. Surviving through the centuries, providing a path to paradise... I don't think that's what Tolkien intended to "say," but it's interesting food for thought.
TolkienBlog.com
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 21 2014, 2:11pm
Post #7 of 33
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Hmmm....This has me thinking....
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I wonder what might have happened if Saruman showed up at the Havens....
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 21 2014, 6:15pm
Post #8 of 33
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I guess it's my nature to see Christian symbolism in everything lol There are many analogies to Christianity in Tolkien’s work which I’m sure have been deliberated to extremes on this site – a couple come to mind:
Frodo’s suffering while carrying his “cross” (The One Ring) to Mt. Doom to save the Shire – compared to Christ’s suffering on the Cross to save mankind.
Gandalf’s death and resurrection. (His healing of Theoden.)
Aragorn’s healing ability.
Boromir’s repentance.
Galadriel’s refusal of the temptation to accept The Ring.
And etc. etc.
Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 21 2014, 10:06pm
Post #9 of 33
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You know, when you go to a restaurant and you see people inside but they won't let you in? That's the treatment Saruman would probably get from Cirdan. "There is no ship to take you back the way you came. And don't loiter around here either."
Though it's hard to figure out how much Cirdan was in the know about what happened in the war. Did Elrond send him regular briefings? Or was Cirdan insightful enough (he didn't trust Annatar) that seeing Saruman, he wouldn't trust him, even if he didn't know why, and wouldn't give him entry to Lindon? Or would he think it's not his place to interfere with someone who came from Valinor, and he'd give him a ship, and let the Valar decide if it found the Straight Road or just sailed in regular water?
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Ithilisa
Rivendell
Jul 21 2014, 10:26pm
Post #10 of 33
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Cirdan was in the know somehow
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Though it's hard to figure out how much Cirdan was in the know about what happened in the war. I'm not sure who Cirdan got his information from, but in my copy of The Complete Guide to Middle Earth Foster states Cirdan fought with the Last Alliance, was a member of the White Council, and in the Third Age frequently aided the Rangers. (If this is inaccurate, please correct me.) If that is accurate, I would imagine the network of Elves and/ or Rangers in one way or another kept him updated on what was going on. If the Elves could quickly send word from Frodo to Rivendell, I would imagine they would have been able to send messages in similar ways to the Gray Havens.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 22 2014, 2:21pm
Post #11 of 33
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I'm not sure who Cirdan got his information from, but in my copy of The Complete Guide to Middle EarthFoster states Cirdan fought with the Last Alliance, was a member of the White Council, and in the Third Age frequently aided the Rangers. (If this is inaccurate, please correct me.)
Foster is correct as far as that goes: Elrond states at The Council that Cirdan “stood by” Gil-galad at the Last Alliance; and in The Slmarillion Rings of Power it’s stated that Cirdan was a member of the Council of the Wise. But I’ve often wondered if he left his “post” to attend any of these meetings during the latter part of the Third Age, or did he possibly send an emissary as he did at the Council of Elrond… ? And I think it can be assumed with much certainty that he aided the Rangers often.
Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Jul 22 2014, 2:22pm)
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jul 22 2014, 5:20pm
Post #12 of 33
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No just kidding... He could have gotten his reports from the Elves leaving Rivendell and headed West on the ships. There seemed to be frequent travels of Elves from Rivendell to the Havens for their migration back across the sea. I would wager they could give Cirdan an earful.
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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Jul 24 2014, 12:06am
Post #13 of 33
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Frodo’s suffering while carrying his “cross” (The One Ring) to Mt. Doom to save the Shire – compared to Christ’s suffering on the Cross to save mankind
I actually never thought of that, I suppose that makes Sam Simon of Cyrene doesn't it? helping him carry his burden up the mountain
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 24 2014, 1:27am
Post #14 of 33
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Frodo’s suffering while carrying his “cross” (The One Ring) to Mt. Doom to save the Shire – compared to Christ’s suffering on the Cross to save mankind I actually never thought of that, I suppose that makes Sam Simon of Cyrene doesn't it? helping him carry his burden up the mountain And I'd never really thought of that. There is a great correlation there. Would that be the Via Dolorosa & Sauron's Road? Good one BW 
Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!
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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Jul 24 2014, 2:15am
Post #15 of 33
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I think we'd be digging too deep if we were to figure out what the "Stations Of The Ring" were lol
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 24 2014, 4:16am
Post #16 of 33
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I think Sam & Frodo could be forgiven if they bypassed a station or two.
Lor bless their stout little hearts . . .
Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jul 26 2014, 2:39pm
Post #18 of 33
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Yet it would not be surprising if Cirdan evoked such a comparison, that Tolkien might have agreed it was "applicable"--though whether or not it was deliberate is another matter altogether. It's very clear that some imagery that hearkened back to his Catholic belief was intentional, I don't think all of it was.
I believe if he was alive today to read some of the scholars who find such analogs in his work, he might be slightly surprised at some of them and at others he might smile and think that he was glad they got it. (I'm not claiming to read his mind, just my speculation based on things he said in his Letters about a few such things, and applying them a little more broadly.) In other words, while he might not have intended Cirdan to be a comparison to St. Peter, he would probably be pleased if a reader drew such a conclusion.
Comparisons of Frodo to Christ are not uncommon. I do believe that Frodo was meant to be a "Christ-like" figure in many of the same ways that some of the Catholic saints are Christ-like. Yet he is not an allegorical equivalent of Christ in the same way that CSL's Aslan is. There are actually three characters who evoke Christ: Frodo, as the sacrificial aspect, Aragorn as the kingly aspect, and Gandalf with the resurrection aspect. Yet none of them are close enough to be Christ.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 26 2014, 3:29pm
Post #19 of 33
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Elrond sent out scouts, and Ellodan and Elrohir (His sons) were said to be away gathering tidings. I think it likely that there were many foot soldiers and scouts out gathering news, perhaps aided by Rhadagast's beasts. Information in a war is almost invaluable.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Jul 26 2014, 3:45pm
Post #20 of 33
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I meant to say "compared to" instead of "based on" lol that's I problem I have. I know Tolkien hated allegory. so I never try to look too hard for symbolism in his works even though there are some lol CS Lewis was more deliberate in his Narnia series that whole thing is a big religious allegory lol. I never saw Frodo as a Christ figure though I always saw him as a version of Tolkien himself, Tolkien was in Word War 1 and it must have haunted him for him to write LOTR the way he did. it was like he was there and knows how these characters felt. there are some instances that may have been inspired by the war like The Dead Marshes for example.
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Jul 26 2014, 7:21pm
Post #22 of 33
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I know relatively little of Lewis but
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Yet he is not an allegorical equivalent of Christ in the same way that CSL's Aslan is.
I think Aslan is actually meant to be Christ, not an allegory of Christ. In other words, Lewis intended Aslan to literally be the incarnation of Christ in the world of Narnia.
Any Lewis scholars with some insight to shed on this?
TolkienBlog.com
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 26 2014, 8:49pm
Post #23 of 33
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So THAT'S why the Eagles didn't fly to Mordor!!!
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They were on patrol duty as intelligencers!!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jul 26 2014, 11:18pm
Post #24 of 33
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In an allegory, all the characters ARE what or who they represent. Basically Aslan is the name Christ bears in Narnia--making him the allegorical equivalent. One of the best know allegories is Pilgrim's Progress. Characters had the names of vices and virtues and were those vices or virtues personified. In allegory the author has a specific message and wants the reader to draw a particular conclusions.
Tolkien was more subtle and never used such direct means, but instead simply used similarities and let readers draw their own conclusions.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Jul 27 2014, 10:29pm
Post #25 of 33
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That makes sense from a catholic perspective to me.
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I say why not? Tolkien may have intended that or not. His works can be interpreted in your own way.
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= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
Cirdan had a palintir...
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