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Taladamir
The Shire
Jul 19 2014, 1:24am
Post #1 of 48
(1557 views)
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Tauriel's problematic portrayal
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The use of the Captain of the Guard as a counter to thranduil's isolationism was a good idea, I think, but poorly used. (of course it may work better in the EE than the TE). IMO it is too easy to question her motives, Is she going after the company to save her new friend? Well, yes. So the whole 'it is our fight' and 'are we not part of this world' sentiments can been seen by some to be undermined by their arguably clichéd(I was ok with it) nature, and also that they really have nothing to do with why the CAPTAIN! just went rogue(this is a pretty big deal imo). If we get more screentime with her not interacting with kili in the EE, it might be easier to see her depth of character, most of which we know not from the cinema but from EL interviews. Some problems could have been avoided if Narzug(?) hadn't gloated about the morgul shaft(maybe he shoulda been fighting 'stead of doing play-by-play, eh?). Tauriel could have gone after them to join them and help them with their quest. That said I really do like the character(EL does a good job) and DOS, although I'm still reserving final judgement til the EE. Also IMO at the root of everything is the lousy motives of PB/FW. Cap of Guard? Great. Female? 50/50. Or maybe skewed to the male side but I don't really care, her career path seems perfectly in line with canon, to me anyway. But I think a lot of us on the forum have a problem with what they did(we must be up to triple digits of threads about it lol). I guess what I'm saying is that fundamentally this is a good addition/development(CoG is in the book), It just got damaged by miscues in the marketing, and a slip or two in what we saw in the TE DOS. Which is a shame really, perhaps some of the 'tauriel haters' would be happier with her in a slightly adjusted role? The 'love triangle' seems to be the main bone of contention, would your view of her addition be improved without the triangle? Or do you begrudge every second lost from our time with the company? P.S. What would you view as good use of her character in BOFA? (I'm kinda hoping she's on guard and pulls Bilbo out of the stream). P.P.S. Maybe if he drowns she can heal him  
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jul 19 2014, 5:40am
Post #2 of 48
(813 views)
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Her strong role does seem to be hampered by the fact that her actions seem directed by her feelings for Kili, thus running the danger of her coming across as just a token female presence with obligatory romantic angle....
A better use of her character, in my view, would have been to involve her in the Dol Guldur storyline. Since she was so concerned about the spiders (until the Hot Dwarf came along,) I would have had her lead a contingent of the Wood Elves to aid the assault on DG by the White Council...and then accompany Gandalf to Erebor for the final battle.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jul 19 2014, 5:41am)
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FiliSonOfDis
Rivendell
Jul 19 2014, 7:03am
Post #3 of 48
(778 views)
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sending her toward dol guldur (while i dont know what will happen in the next film) would have been better.
have the orcs give up chasing the dwarves and head home and have her disobey staying put by following them, none of the healing scene or the lake town fight have it happen in mirkwood. She can still have her earlier "romantic" fascination with Kili, that was ok, it was following the dwarves to find him and healing him that put the whole thing over the top and if it goes any further it's going to really ruin the importance of legolas/gimli slowly becoming friends in LOTR.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 19 2014, 8:33am
Post #4 of 48
(763 views)
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RElax... Kili Dies, She "Marry"zzz Bard.?
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THIZZ Triangle
.. has all been... a Mis-Direction..
( A..Playfull Plot Ploy by PJ PB & FW )
WE are supposed to think
Tauriel has a Thing for Kili
YET she has only just NOW
jus' MET... a Kick-Ass Human Archer...
An Un-Expected ROMANCE?
Think
Arwen (Elf-kind) &
Aragorn (Hu-man)...
this has happened before?
Thingies like this happen daily
in the Grand Soap Opera of
ALL Life...
Bomby will
Bet you.a Dollar
for a....... Donut?
Bain, Tilda,&..Sigrid
NEED an ELF... Mother?
Balin: "She must be a great Beauty?"
Bard: "She was.."
Balin: "So Sorry"
(Sneaky, Tricksey ScreenWriterzzz, Precious?)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 19 2014, 9:58am
Post #5 of 48
(745 views)
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I would have been far happier had her role been more minor – if she (and Legolas) could have been left behind in Mirkwood. Making so much of this made-up story-line has skewed the key story far too much for me, and it was completely unnecessary in my view. Additionally, I thought the 'action' CGI was by far the worst, and most distracting, in the case of the made-up story-line (in particular when it came to Legolas).
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 19 2014, 11:32am
Post #7 of 48
(711 views)
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The 'love triangle' seems to be the main bone of contention, would your view of her addition be improved without the triangle?
Tauriel would have worked much better for me had she not been saddled with this love triangle subplot. Not only do I feel that the idea of a romance brewing between and Elf and a Dwarf is kind of ridiculous and against the "spirit of Tolkien" (since the Dwarves were always portrayed as a very self-serving, insular, and secretive race, generally loathe to open up to outsiders, especially Elves), but also as FiliSonOfDis mentions, it weakens Gimli's later character development in which he becomes "Elf-friend".
I also could have done without her and Legolas showing up in Lake-town. I think the two should have just stayed in Mirkwood, like Eleniel says maybe have them aid in Dol Guldur, which is a far greater threat to their realm than the fact that Kili got stuck with a "Morgul shaft" (which was an extremely lame LotR reference IMO).
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 19 2014, 1:30pm
Post #8 of 48
(673 views)
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BUT, SHE has saved his family.. already?
But,....HE was already in Jail?
What you suppose THAT means?
If the mingling of Elf & Human blood
of our 7,000 year old Ancestors
gives us "a little Elf" in
Each of us...
.
Well, here are
OUR ANCESTORS!
The Aragorn & Arwen blood line
Isn't the only time...
in the Last 7,000
years.
Call Bomby Batty
if you will,
but Don't be TOO
surprized if OL'bom is right..
ONCE
(...and that, is an encouraging THOUGHT?)
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jul 19 2014, 1:31pm)
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 19 2014, 3:24pm
Post #9 of 48
(643 views)
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I don’t think that we can automatically assume that Tauriel’s actions are entirely due to her fears for her “new friend”.
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I agree that the romantic triangle, such as it is, muddies the waters so we can’t be really sure what is going on.
However, it looked to me that we first saw Tauriel’s disillusionment with Thranduil and his policies when he told her to deal only with the spiders within their borders and that other peoples could fend for themselves. She seemed taken aback to me. That was before the Starlight Feast scene. Thranduil’s demeaning admonition about Legolas, though personal, would not have helped her attitude.
Then there is the Orc murder scene, in which Tauriel is dismissed from the interrogation by Thranduil for attempting what he did himself a few minutes later. As she leaves, she hears him say that he doesn`t care about one dead Dwarf, who in this case happens to be someone she knows and has connected to.
Whatever is supposed to lie between them romantically (or not), it seems to me that Kili may personify for Tauriel all the people that Thranduil is so blithely leaving to their fates. Clearly Thranduil’s attitude runs contrary to Tauriel’s beliefs and it seems that she decides to act.
Is Tauriel following the seriously wounded Kili or the Orcs who encroached onto Elven lands, killed some her people and tried to kill the Elves’ prisoners? Or both? We don’t know, though it is the Orcs that she speaks of to Legolas.
I don’t see how the Tauriel and Kili relationship, whatever it is, ruins either the Gimli/Legolas one or that of Gimli and Galadriel. First, it is going to come to nothing at the BOFA. Second, it is between two relatively young people who seem more open and appear to lack the hardened hostile attitudes that Legolas and Gimli show in FotR. The latter is a much greater barrier to overcome.
I like Tauriel as a character and find her interesting. I like that she follows through on her beliefs and chases after the Orcs. So I am OK with her and Legolas in Laketown, though the fight with Bolg goes on too long for my taste.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 19 2014, 4:08pm
Post #10 of 48
(630 views)
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I disagree, and here is why...
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I don’t see how the Tauriel and Kili relationship, whatever it is, ruins either the Gimli/Legolas one or that of Gimli and Galadriel. First, it is going to come to nothing at the BOFA. Second, it is between two relatively young people who seem more open and appear to lack the hardened hostile attitudes that Legolas and Gimli show in FotR. The latter is a much greater barrier to overcome.
It's the fact that it's basically a rehashing of what we saw in LotR - two members of separate races with a history of animosity towards one another coming to the realization that the other side isn't so bad once you get to know them a bit. The fact that Jackson is presenting this Kili/Tauriel business as happening 60 years prior to the great friendship that struck up between Legolas and Gimli makes it seem as if Legolas and Gimli just followed down the road that Tauriel and Kili already paved for them, which is why I think it was a mistake to present Tauriel and Kili as having "broken the mould" before Legolas and Gimli. Doesn't matter to me that the dynamic is a little different (two curious and attractive young'uns vs two older chaps set in their ways) or that it'll all come to naught in the end, the basic premise is exactly the same, and I don't feel one bit that it needed to be repeated for The Hobbit (especially when it isn't even a part of the actual story to begin with). In fact, I feel that portraying only animosity between the Mirkwood Elves and Erebor Dwarves in this trilogy would have made Legolas and Gimli's unlikely friendship that much more powerful when LotR rolls around.
And that's not to mention the romantic overtones between Kili and Tauriel, which seem to be an attempt to recapture something along the lines of the Aragorn/Arwen romance from LotR. It came off very ham-fisted to me, and I didn't feel it was in any way necessary. In fact, it hurt DoS for me.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jul 19 2014, 4:09pm)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 19 2014, 4:12pm
Post #11 of 48
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Do you actually think that's going to happen Bomby?
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I can't see that happening, I don't think Jackson is going to just have Tauriel abandon Kili for Bard, or move on to Bard after Kili dies (either scenario would make her look a bit trampy, dontcha think? LOL)
If they had linked Tauriel to Bard from the get-go rather Kili, I think I'd have a SLIGHTLY easier time accepting that (the idea of an Elf/Dwarf romance does not sit right with me due to the nature of Dwarves within the legendarium). Still though, I strongly believe that there shouldn't have been any romance subplot at all in these Hobbit films.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jul 19 2014, 4:17pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 19 2014, 5:05pm
Post #12 of 48
(592 views)
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Re the unlikely friendship, depends
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In fact, I feel that portraying only animosity between the Mirkwood Elves and Erebor Dwarves in this trilogy would have made Legolas and Gimli's unlikely friendship that much more powerful when LotR rolls around.
Because re the FILM LOTR, for me there's not enough build-up or dealing with the mistrust between elves and dwarves. So there's some shouts about no-one trusts an elf, Gimli is fiesty, there's some looks exchanged, but by the end of the council meeting Legolas is smiling with amusement. So for me it wasn't powerful in that way in the first place, because there is no build-up to it. You'd have to have read deeply I think to know that ahead of time, that the relationship is unusual.
Also, for me, there are those that really didn't need so many tie-ins between the Hobbit and LOTR. It's something PJ wanted to do, but for me it gets wearying, really. I don't watch the Hobbit thinking "that's the same bow Legolas uses in LOTR!". Which I didn't know, actually, until I got the WETA book this week. So I find re-watching LOTR I don't think of the Hobbit that way at all about the relationships.
Actually I often think *cough* that I enjoy the Hobbit, overall, a lot more, thanks to consistently amazing Hobbit performances. Except for some key LOTR scenes esp. TTT and Rohan. But I'm not thinking about canon, or non-canon, except for the stuff that's always irritated me like Faramir.
Kili/Tauriel doesn't even cross my mind watching LOTR, and no matter what happens in BOFA, I doubt they will later re LOTR.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 19 2014, 5:15pm
Post #13 of 48
(583 views)
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Love this - incisive and insightful, once again from Noria IMO
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Then there is the Orc murder scene, in which Tauriel is dismissed from the interrogation by Thranduil for attempting what he did himself a few minutes later. As she leaves, she hears him say that he doesn`t care about one dead Dwarf, who in this case happens to be someone she knows and has connected to.
Whatever is supposed to lie between them romantically (or not), it seems to me that Kili may personify for Tauriel all the people that Thranduil is so blithely leaving to their fates. Clearly Thranduil’s attitude runs contrary to Tauriel’s beliefs and it seems that she decides to act.
Is Tauriel following the seriously wounded Kili or the Orcs who encroached onto Elven lands, killed some her people and tried to kill the Elves’ prisoners? Or both? We don’t know, though it is the Orcs that she speaks of to Legolas. Love this. Thank you for focusing my vision and brushing off the "debris of the Kili fuss", will watch Tauriel w. new appreciation. Helped me to step back and look again, as one of my favorite looks of Tauriel's is the tight expression on her face as she descends the steps when Thranduil tells her to leave. For me, for an actress that seems to be a subtle yet key expression, possibly not easy to do in a scene and have it show on camera - but to me it spoke volumes. Even the way she is holding herself. Glad you posted that, love it when my eyes are opened up, or LOL maybe it's like a kick in the shins !!!!
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Lissuin
Valinor
Jul 19 2014, 5:25pm
Post #14 of 48
(571 views)
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Who is the sneaky, tricksey one here, Precious?//
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 19 2014, 5:30pm
Post #15 of 48
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YOU are assuming too much...WHO says Tauriel LOVES Kili?
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JUST because they became Friends
DOES NOT mean, SHE would go
to the "Ends of Middle-Earth" to
help him...?
SHE has been Cooped UP
in the ElvenKing's Realm
for 700 years & is just
NOW Realizing
..a World View?
HAS she Ever been to Laketown,
HAS she Ever been to The City of Dale,
HAS she Ever been to Erebor
BEFORE?
Bomby doesn't Think
SOoooo.
PUSHIN' everyonezz
"Romance Triangle"
Out the Door?
Soo far this is a Geo-Political Move
by Tauriel,
Nothing more?
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 19 2014, 5:47pm
Post #16 of 48
(575 views)
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I think she's been to Lake-town, certainly, perhaps often
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And VERY possibly the city of Dale, which IMO would be a superb training ground. Especially since Tauriel is curious, and talks about walking in starlight, which to me implies she has walked to high places and by implication would probably walk other places. The children show no real surprise over having elves in their midst, and there is the trading relationship.
No reason for Tauriel or anyone to go to Erebor IMO unless it's for treasure - we see from the AUJ fly-over the country is blasted around for miles evidently, unless she were pursuing an enemy in that direction. Have the impression that Erebor is pretty well shunned - AND Thranduil knew the mountain was sealed, which to me means probably both elves and men know it is sealed as well, except to Smaug.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 19 2014, 5:47pm
Post #17 of 48
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You makes some interesting points....
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..but lose me when you talk about the 'lousy motives' of Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh. Seems to me to be going way too far to attribute 'lousy motives' to anyone in this kind of context. They haven't robbed, murdered, deceived, betrayed... just written a secondary female character (two, if we include Galadriel) into a film that would otherwise have been all male). And since I am female I can't class this as 'lousy', even though I personally didn't see a need for it - I never even noticed the absence of female characters from the book until someone pointed it out. And you say yourself that you like the character and think she's in keeping with Tolkien, so where do the 'lousy motives' come in?
I agree with you that Tauriel's an interesting character. As for the so-called romance, I never saw one. I saw two young(ish) representatives of estranged races discover ways in which they were not so very different from one another in the Feast of Starlight conversation - which to me was a lovely scene; one of the best pieces of writing in the whole series of films, beautifully acted and with one of the best themes so far. Couln't fault it - but how anyone could find it romantic defeats me. Then Legolas listening in - would anyone seriously take his reaction as jealousy if they hadn't read so much comment about the supposed 'love triangle'? I thought, and still think on repeated watchings, that his reaction was far more racial prejudice than jealous lover - she's talking to a DWARF!
Seems to me they did establish Tauriel's reasons for leaving were primarily a reaction against Thranduil's attitude. Of course she took in the information about Kili's poisoned wound but then, having so recently had that conversation with him he had become a real person to her, so she would be moved by his plight. As for the healing scene, I'm reserving judgement until I've seen the EE and the working-out of the storyline in the final film - but I did notice that she was on the point of leaving before Bofur turned up with the athelas and she didn't hold Kili's hand when he reached out - I thought she looked a bit bemused. So romance? All I've seen as yet is a sort of sympathetic acquaintance.
Which leads me to wonder if the problem, if there is a problem, has more to do with all the comment about love triangles. Much as you've said. It doesn't bother me because I'm judging by the film, which doesn't seem to me to bear the comments out at all. I like Tauriel's character, I think she's an interesting addition. Her restlessness and longing for escape reminded me from the start of Aredhel in the Silmarillion, and I'd like to see more of her intereacting with other characters.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jul 19 2014, 6:33pm
Post #18 of 48
(577 views)
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Stand back from the deep fan and then look
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I occasionally put these questions to my partner who always comes on the second viewing to these movies and his view "from a distance" is she is merely a restless impulsive spirit who exhibits those qualities in number of different ways.
My view is the coming of the company acts as a catalyst to a view that has been taking root for sometime. The Woodland realm cannot maintain the isolationist view and is expressed in that summary statement it is our fight and all her subsequent actions. Those actions include aiding a Dwarf she has made a connection with but this whole triangle thing wherever it springs from (an incautious statement from the makers/marketing/fans) is an over simplification of whats going on.
The various connections simply give motive to far more important actions which will be taken in the third movie and lay the ground work for Legloas's world view but animosity toward Dwarves in the FOTR.
I think Tauriel is another representation of a spirited character who finds the society in which she lives claustrophobic and I have always made the connection since I saw the movie with Aredhel though my pre viewing speculation had lead me toward Nimrodel.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 19 2014, 6:35pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 19 2014, 10:49pm
Post #19 of 48
(513 views)
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Actually, I've said many times that my favorite fight scene is the one with Legolas & Tauriel in Laketown - did it help the story? That can be debated, but what I like is the close-quarter combat & no CGI. I also love the barrels escape, but there was too much CGI in that one and compared to the live action it looked like a video game sequence.
But it may have been better for Tauriel & Legolas to go to Dol Goldur - another problem with their appearance in Laketown is so many expert archers when Smaug attacks (though at least Legolas is out of there for now). And I also don't care much for the whole love triangle/healing scene. I'm actually a bit aggravated that she didn't go with Legolas, after he defied his father to go get her. She should have left immediately with him, IMO, after saving Bard's kids.
While we're at it, I don't understand why 4 dwarves got left behind. Okay, one could argue that Thorin was already being affected, as he was willing to leave his favorite nephew behind. If I remember correctly, Bofur did stay behind with Bombur, who couldn't climb the mountain (though movie Bombur seems unstoppable at times, doesn't he?), so Fili's "majestic speech" about belonging with his brother is kind of a nod to that. But still, 4 dwarves??? It echos the fracturing of the Fellowship too much. Overall I liked the movie, and despite my above mentioned issues I don't know that the EE really needs to "fix" anything - or even if it COULD fix anything. The only thing I'm looking for in the EE is the party that got Bofur left behind - perhaps another table dance?
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 19 2014, 11:01pm
Post #20 of 48
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I agree with you that Tauriel's an interesting character. As for the so-called romance, I never saw one. I saw two young(ish) representatives of estranged races discover ways in which they were not so very different from one another in the Feast of Starlight conversation - which to me was a lovely scene; one of the best pieces of writing in the whole series of films, beautifully acted and with one of the best themes so far. Couln't fault it - but how anyone could find it romantic defeats me. Then Legolas listening in - would anyone seriously take his reaction as jealousy if they hadn't read so much comment about the supposed 'love triangle'? I thought, and still think on repeated watchings, that his reaction was far more racial prejudice than jealous lover - she's talking to a DWARF! I agree that the feast of starlight conversation did seem to be a joining of the minds, a development of respect for each other. The problem is with the earlier scene, where Legolas asked why the dwarf was looking at her, and she said something about "he's very tall for a dwarf" with a goofy look on her face. I think that's alot of the problem. Her main goal in leaving, I think, was to hunt the orcs. She may have thought Kili was already dead before finding him in Laketown and seeing him in so much pain. She did look genuinely torn between helping someone who was dying and helping Legolas (I already commented on that in a separate post). Then delirious Kili had to say "do you think she could have loved me?" They could have left that one line out, and I think the story would have been better. I truly hope it doesn't go beyond the fingers almost touching - if anything that shows the romance was one-sided.
(This post was edited by Kilidoescartwheels on Jul 19 2014, 11:02pm)
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Annatar598
Rohan
Jul 19 2014, 11:40pm
Post #21 of 48
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Are meant to act as a simple narrative foil for her to be enabled to seek out the wide world she so wishes to be a part of. It's all hypothetical until Kili comes along.
I can see though that it is easy to question her motives. As it is easy to question anything in any given medium of storytelling.
"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.
Really? Alright...
Well, proud to be one I guess.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 20 2014, 12:30am
Post #23 of 48
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They could have used the spider attack for that...
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...or even better, the Orc presence in Wood-elf territory. Either of those things would have sufficed, but then the writers wouldn't have gotten their romance angle.
And yes, there IS a romance angle, quite obviously.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 20 2014, 12:48am
Post #24 of 48
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While we're at it, I don't understand why 4 dwarves got left behind. Okay, one could argue that Thorin was already being affected, as he was willing to leave his favorite nephew behind... It echos the fracturing of the Fellowship too much. I didn't even think of the Fellowship - but then for me there's always been so much distance between the Hobbit and LOTR I probably wouldn't think that way. But I'd always argue (and have) that while Thorin and company are definitely feeling the time run away from them, and the strain of that, there's no evidence for me that Kili is left re dragon sickness, and he WOULD have slowed all down.
Re the WETA books I believe time was the factor even more now, because there is a prop with a kind of circular calender that was evidently supposed to be something that the dwarves looked at to really pinpoint Durin's Day (I guess that got changed but it's a cool prop - hafta watch and see if it is on a wall at Bard's.) And then the film makes a point of Durin's Day falling morn after next, and if they "fail to reach the mountain in that time the quest has been for nothing."
So I think the fillmmakers really hammered at the time factor (and again at the overlook). Now evidently folks might not like Thorin leaving his nephew, but I'd argued before that 1)Kili has been covering how bad it was getting 2)He got them all arrested 3) Thorin made a tough decision because he is a king [of a people] and the movie says as much 4) It's not as though Kili was left in the wilderness with no provisions, is an adult and has been scout for the group 5) Thorin didn't know how bad it was e.g. "join us when you're healed" and it's obvious from Thorin's face he didn't like hurting Kili emotionally 6) Thorin did him a favor from the look of that dry plain they hiked across, then uphill on shifting rocks, then up a cliff - e.g. Thorin and the older dwarves knew the terrain where the younger dwarves - Fili saying he would carry his brother - did not and 7) I would have done the same as Thorin.
I love Kili and he's a tough dwarf like they all are, but, he's young. And I sure wouldn't wait for Bofur who is who knows where. Some people (and I don't mean Kilidoescartwheels) seem to be unable to wait for some evidence of dragon-sickness tho I think the first touch of that at, and in, the mountain was pretty distinct.
ANYWAY. Sorry, went sideways there.....Another reason I don't think of FOTR so much is by default I knew the Laketown dwarves would head for Erebor, so it's a bit different dynamic.
But why split the dwarves up at all? Other than just for drama  , - which I'm OK with so far, it's just PJ didn't HAVE to take the story that way - it could be useful if things play out so that Fili or others warn Thorin & co. there's a whole rabble on the way to Erebor wanting some gold. Possibly with Thorin's "best friend" in tow.
But yeah - the EE could fix some things *grins* in the sense that it would have all the lovely footage we know was filmed, and are dying to see.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 20 2014, 1:15am
Post #25 of 48
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WE already know Kili izz a Flirt..To his own embarassment
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Can't Post
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in Rivendale...The Joke on Dwalinzzz Face?
"THATZzzz.. NOoo.. Elfmaid?"
Hazz Bomby falling out
whatever Seat
Bomby izz in,
Everytime!
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