|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Noria
Gondor
Jul 19 2014, 3:00pm
Post #1 of 19
(4299 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Chapter Of The Week: The Woodland Realm
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Woodland Realm...
It's hard to be the one to follow Daniel's beautiful presentation. Sorry about the layout problems but my computer skills are limited.
So here goes...
Mirkwood is done with and we arrive in the Woodland Realm. The spiders are dead and the Dwarves rescued/captured by the Elves. The action is over for now and it's time for some characterization and exposition.
Prisoners of the Elves
We start in the dim and creepy forest with Legolas ordering the Elves to search the prisoners, who are completely surrounded by a large band of armed Elves. Legolas looks a little different than he did in LotR: Orlando is wearing intense blue contact lenses and Legolas has apparently been subjected to digital de-aging.
My opinion is that it's inevitable that most of the returning characters would look at least slightly different whether they are just older or have been digitally altered. I don't care and Legolas still looks good to my eyes. My now adult niece, who as a little kid was a Legolas/Orlando superfan, tells me that he's still hot even though she's over him. 
1) Some people really hate Legolas' appearance in this movie. What do you think?
Legolas pulls a picture of Gloin's family out of the Dwarf's jacket and asks "Who is this - your brother?" and "What is this horrid creature - a goblin mutant?" An indignant Gloin identifies them as his wife and "wee lad, Gimli."
To me Legolas seems rather different in character than he is sixty years later in LotR, wilder and more volatile as well as more openly and violently hostile towards Dwarves. Aside from threatening to kill Thorin with pleasure, it seems to me that (especially for an Elf) Legolas is pretty rude to both Thorin and Gloin, whom he doesn't appear to recognize. He keeps Orcrist for his own use, but apparently doesn't take the map and key from Thorin. My assumption is that this is the start of a character arc for Legolas.
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
An Elf takes weapon after hidden weapon from about Fili's person while he submits but looks more and more annoyed as all are found, even a dagger down his back.
I enjoy this bit because Fili, as played by Dean O'Gorman, is one of my favourite Dwarves and he gets very few of these moments. I attribute that to the change in actors because I think he does a fine job.
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly?
Tauriel reports to Legolas that the spiders have all been destroyed but that more will come. Both look a little grim.
Here and now let me say that I like Tauriel and the way she is presented. Evangeline Lilly is a lovely woman so of course on one level Tauriel is eye candy, like more than one of the male characters. (Thanks, Fran and Philippa. ) However, she could have been no more than that, had no other function in the movie and been completely sexualized by her dress and behaviour. Yet Tauriel's clothing is the feminine equivalent of that of the male guards and her manner is not flirty or alluring but serious and professional, that of an Elven captain of the guard who happens to be female. IMO she is active rather than passive, a rescuer rather than a victim, and later on we see that she may be a catalyst for change.
5) What do you think of the way the film makers have chosen to present Tauriel? Do you find her convincing as a captain of the guard?
Legolas is handed Orcrist and looks at it, remarking in Elvish that it was made in Gondolin. His “English” words are slightly different. He asks Thorin about the sword and Thorin replies that it was given to him but Legolas threatens him with Orcrist and responds “Not just a thief but a liar as well.”
Presumably Legolas is angry that a despised Dwarf has possession of a legendary Elven sword and can’t believe that he obtained it honestly. Typically, Thorin refuses to provide the perfectly reasonable (if unbelievable) explanation that he found Orcrist in a troll hoard and that both Gandalf the Grey and Elrond of Rivendell know that he has it and are OK with it.
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword?
7) Why doesn’t Thorin tell Legolas how he obtained Orcrist?
As the Elves start moving their prisoners away, Bofur asks “Thorin, where’s Bilbo?” and Thorin looks around in surprise. Captives and captors arrive at the banks of the Forest River, where the forest seems still to be sunlit and healthy, and then cross the bridge to the doors of the Elven King’s realm.
The Woodland Realm
To me this bridge shot is a lovely and iconic one. It’s not as powerful as the Bilbo in the treetop scene but I love the look of it: the sun shining through the autumn leaves onto the riverbank, birds singing and flying, the waterfall in the background, the water foaming under the beautiful bridge and the elaborately carved pillars by the doors. It’s a welcome change after the eerie gloom of Mirkwood.
8) Did you like this shot of the bridge, the river, the waterfalls, the pillars and doors and so on?
Suddenly we briefly see a running Bilbo in Ring mode, as Legolas orders the doors shut.
We are treated to some PJ foolery: we, through what appears to be Bilbo’s POV, rush across the bridge and reach the doors just as they are closed in our faces and we and Bilbo are shut out. Or are we?
9) What did you think Bilbo was up to when you first saw the movie? If you’ve read the book, you know. Did you think he made it through the doors?
Inside the doors is an immense open space crossed by bridges and walkways made from stone and tree roots and with huge carved pillars supporting the roof. Rays of sunlight come from above and there is moss and other greenery growing in places. We watch the Dwarves and their captors wend their way towards the distant throne “room” with its high throne. A lovely piece of music begins, evocative of this strange place and its enigmatic ruler.
I had always imagined the interior of the Wood Elves to be more of a series of tunnels and chambers delved into the earth of a hill but I like this huge light and air filled space. It feels more Elven and scarcely seems to be underground at all. Erebor and the Goblin caves are not what I had expected either and both of those are also largely open interior spaces spanned by natural and fabricated bridges, platforms and such. This seems to be a design choice that was made for these movies and I quite like it.
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
And here we almost meet the Elven King, teased by a partial reveal from behind his throne with the small figures of the Elves and captive Dwarves approaching in the distance, then a hand holding a carved staff and the other wearing two rings, and finally the crown of branches and autumn leaves and berries, the eyebrows and the blue eyes.
I enjoyed the way that this intro uses a series of short and enigmatic shots to tell us that we are meeting a significant and super cool character. Maybe it is a bit of a cliché, but it works for me. But IMO it doesn’t make much sense unless there is, as I suspect, a scene missing here, one which comes immediately after we almost see Thranduil and in which all the Dwarves are brought before him. The next scene shows all the Dwarves except Thorin being imprisoned and we know where Thorin is.
11) What’s your opinion of this introduction, with all those little glimpses of Thranduil? Cool? Cheesy?
Into the Dungeons
Then the dwarves are all thrust into cells, individually and in pairs, while they grumble and threaten.
Fili gets one more moment as an Elf pulls a last knife from out of the Dwarf’s coat, to his evident disgust, and shuts his cell door. Seeing this, Kili asks Tauriel, who is about to lock him up, “Don’t you want to search me? I could have anything down my trousers.” Apparently unfazed, she replies ”Or nothing.” as she swings the cell door closed.
Kili’s remark created some debate but I don’t mind it. He strikes me as a rather brash young male and that is the kind of silly thing some young men say to young women to try to engage them. You know, a bad pickup line. This is not something I can see Tolkien writing though. Tauriel displays her cool, not showing any embarrassment and just carrying on.
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world? Is it just silly or does it fit Kili’s character? Is Kili’s interest in Tauriel romantic or is he just giving her a hard time?
Legolas asks Tauriel why Kili is watching her and she seems a little flustered as she replies that she doesn’t know. She goes on to remark that he is taller than most Dwarves and Legolas responds that he’s just as ugly as the others. Then he and Kili stare at each other.
It’s interesting that it’s when she’s talking to Legolas about Kili that Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable. Did Kili embarrass her and she didn’t let it show as she put him in his place? Is it because she is interested in Kili and doesn’t want to admit it? Does she fancy Legolas and Kili’s attention made her self-conscious in front of him? Is Legolas jealous or just miffed at Tauriel’s tolerance? To this point the whole romance subplot seems to consist of a couple of glares from Legolas.
13) Do you think Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable with Legolas’ question and if so, why? What does the remark about Kili’s height mean?
14) Do you think that Legolas is jealous or a little irked that Tauriel seems sympathetic towards a Dwarf prisoner?
15) Finally, how do you think this entire Woodland Realm sequence relates to the same series of events in the book?
It is obviously quite different in some ways. There is no Elven feast in the forest for the Dwarves to stumble upLegolas and Tauriel capture the Dwarves, instead of some faceless and nameless Elves, after destroying a second wave of spiders. Thorin is there, instead of being lost before the spider attack and imprisoned separately. The Dwarves, though somewhat the worse-for-wear, are hardly starving and helpless and don’t seem to be almost grateful to be to be taken prisoner. Then there is the whole Kili/Tauriel/Legolas thing.
For me the essence of this sequence is much the same. The dwarves are captured and imprisoned, we meet Thranduil and the Wood Elves and see their underground home. Bilbo uses the Ring to escape capture and enter the place as his personal journey continues. The Dwarves are not happy and the Elves don’t care.
Some things have to be different, IMO. The whole encroaching on the Elven feast thing is far too long for any movie. The film makers chose to eliminate rather than truncate that element, I suspect so as to give Legolas and Tauriel a more dynamic entrance and to save Thranduil for his own intro a little later. It makes sense for Legolas to be there, as he needs stuff so do if he’s going to be in the movie and IMO he needs to be in the movie. Also, these tough warrior Dwarves are too different from their book counterparts to be captured in the same way.
Tauriel is a choice the film makers made, but since I like her and her role as a contrast to the cold hearted and isolationist Thranduil and as an agent for some sort of change in both him and Legolas, I have no complaints. The Kili romance thing may turn out to be awful, but IMO it’s not there yet.
16) Any other comments?
(This post was edited by Noria on Jul 19 2014, 3:08pm)
|
|
|
Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Jul 19 2014, 5:04pm
Post #2 of 19
(2495 views)
Shortcut
|
(I like the first screencap here where we see the arm of an Elf on the left side as a reminder that we are completely surrounded, as it were...)
1) Some people really hate Legolas' appearance in this movie. What do you think?
Well, I don't particularly care for it, but I take the practical view that he can't look younger naturally, and he's got to look sort of younger somehow, so let's do our best. I think the nuclear-blue eyes are a bit overkill, but it doesn't bother me that much.
The fact that he's even in the movie doesn't bother me either. Where else would isolationist Thranduil's son be?
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
Yes, Legolas is different from his character in the LOTR movie (and from the book, but that's another topic  ), but that's the point. Legolas has a character arc in this movie series--and presumably, so does his father, and they're going to learn a little something (we hope) about being involved in the world. And maybe something about humility.
I don't like the comments about Gloin's wife--mostly because they're unnecessarily personal and rude--or about Gimli, for the same reason and also because "mutant" is too modern, and really jars me. However, the shameless pandering to LOTR fans is appreciated. 
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly?
I like any moments where we focus on Fili, because he is grossly underused, in my opinion! But I wish he got to do something more than look annoyed. The comic relief is nice, though. And it's a nice tie-in back to AUJ, when Fili unloads his weapons arsenal at Bag End.
5) What do you think of the way the film makers have chosen to present Tauriel? Do you find her convincing as a captain of the guard?
I really, really appreciate that Tauriel wasn't sexualized, as you mention, Noria. I like the subversion of the damsel-in-distress trope, so now Kili is always getting rescued by Tauriel. (However, I'm also ready for that to be over in BOTFA! And I've had enough "romance" too, thank you very much!) I do find her convincing as a warrior, although her impulsiveness and apparent youth seems to make her an odd choice for captain. But again, I don't really mind.
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword?
7) Why doesn’t Thorin tell Legolas how he obtained Orcrist?
I'm not sure what Legolas might mean beyond that the sword should belong to an Elf. I guess he's picked up on, or knows about, his father's antipathy toward the Dwarves that have his precious necklace (even if Legolas doesn't recognize Thorin as one of the primary culprits)...and now they've got a sword from Gondolin too?? That's enough to make an Elf pretty steamed.
I think Thorin refuses to tell about it because 1. Legolas isn't in a listening mood; 2. "Pride will be your downfall"; 3. "Save me from the stubbornness of Dwarves!" It's a nice shoutout to the Hobbit book too, because Thorin won't talk to the Elvenking there, either, and tell him why the company is wandering around in Mirkwood.
8) Did you like this shot of the bridge, the river, the waterfalls, the pillars and doors and so on?
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
The Elvenking's kingdom is all gorgeous and beautifully realized--much better than I ever envisioned it myself. I agree with you about the air and light--I never quite imagined Elves living without that, but didn't know how they could do so underground. Now we know! I don't particularly like the CGI of the procession, because they walk with strange strides, but if I ignore that, all is good. It seems distinctly Elven without being terribly similar to either Rivendell or Lorien--my hat's off to WETA and the conceptual artists!
9) What did you think Bilbo was up to when you first saw the movie? If you’ve read the book, you know. Did you think he made it through the doors?
I read the book, so I knew what was happening. The Woodland Realm seems pretty secure (especially if Thranduil really thinks he's going to keep a dragon/Orc invasion out of it by locking the doors), so Bilbo must have gotten in then or, failing that, another time the door opened. But I think he got in the first time.
11) What’s your opinion of this introduction, with all those little glimpses of Thranduil? Cool? Cheesy?
I don't really like the strange closeups of Thranduil, and even the score is a bit camp for me. Still, I think the shot of Thranduil's eyes and eyebrows implies that he, like Galadriel, has some kind of psychic powers and realizes what's happening before the prisoners arrive. And it does seem he knows exactly what Thorin is up to (just not the part where he's going to curse him and all his kin--Thranduil seemed a tad shocked! ) But I must say I love Thranduil's crown of leaves--just like the book. And his clothes are always fascinating too. I wonder who has a bigger wardrobe--him, or Elrond? 
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world? Is it just silly or does it fit Kili’s character? Is Kili’s interest in Tauriel romantic or is he just giving her a hard time?
I don't like Kili's comment about his trousers--ick. Not appropriate. On the other hand, Kili does seem like a teenage boy who tries to think of something cool and provocative to say to a cute girl to grab her interest, and ends up striking the wrong note. I like Tauriel's reaction--playing it very cool. Plus she knows he doesn't have a weapon or he wouldn't have asked her to throw him a dagger to kill the spider. She realizes he's interested in her, but downplays it, although it probably piques her own interest just a bit.
13) Do you think Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable with Legolas’ question and if so, why? What does the remark about Kili’s height mean?
14) Do you think that Legolas is jealous or a little irked that Tauriel seems sympathetic towards a Dwarf prisoner?
Tauriel seems uncomfortable with Legolas's question, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly why. As it turns out, there are all kinds of feelings swirling around among her and Legolas and Kili, most of them unresolved, so she is probably just not willing to talk to Legolas about what she's thinking and feeling. The remark about Kili's height definitely shows her interest in him.
Legolas is jealous, apparently--maybe he heard the trousers remark, which is enough to annoy anyone. (Better than Tomnoddy or Attercop!  ) It's apparent he's got a chip on his shoulder about Dwarves, just like dear old Dad, so his reaction makes sense if he's interested in Tauriel himself.
15) Finally, how do you think this entire Woodland Realm sequence relates to the same series of events in the book?
Obviously we're speeding all this up from the book, and the prisoners are only there a day or two at most (just enough time to shed their coats and get comfy?). The Tauriel/Kili/Legolas stuff is a set-up for later events. It works for me, but I always want to see more of the details of the settings in PJ's ME movies. So count me as one looking forward to whatever other crumbs we might get in the EE.
Overall I like Tauriel, although I'm not necessarily a fan of the "romance" per se--mostly because of the healing scene, which I do. not. like. At least the way it was carried out. I like her character as the voice of "reason"--really, IMO, Tolkien's view of the world as a community, and peoples as interconnected. Because of her point of view, she seems to me as much a part of Tolkien as anything he wrote.
Oh, and BTW, "less wise and more dangerous" could describe the Legolas of this series (compared to the LOTR Legolas) pretty well, couldn't it?
Thanks for this chapter, Noria. Thought-provoking questions, and the layout looks fine to me! :)
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Jul 19 2014, 5:09pm)
|
|
|
Kim
Valinor
Jul 19 2014, 6:49pm
Post #3 of 19
(2441 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Point that thing somewhere else!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
1) Some people really hate Legolas' appearance in this movie. What do you think?
Yeah, he looks different, but it doesn’t bother me. His armor gives him a harder edge vs his introduction in FOTR where he’s in a soft cloak and lighting.
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
Well, he certainly does seem to be more aggressive and hostile. I suppose part of that could be that he’s been out hunting creatures and is suspicious of anyone else he encounters in the forest, especially since he’s been living in such an isolated realm. When he comments on the first photo, it’s kind of neutral and a little curious, but then his comment about the second photo, it’s more hostile.
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
I thought it was great! Provided a nice little chuckle and a “hey!”
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly?
I thought it was a nice fun little touch. Does anyone know what the elf is saying as he confiscates the knives?
5) What do you think of the way the film makers have chosen to present Tauriel? Do you find her convincing as a captain of the guard?
I agree with your comments. I really like Tauriel, both the look/design of her character and Evangeline Lilly’s performance. She does seem like a fierce warrior, pretty deadly with knives and arrows, and more than capable of being the captain of the guard.
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword?
Well, I assumed he meant that those were his ancestors. I’m not that familiar with the elves backstories, but Elrond did say they were forged by the high elves of the west, so Legolas’ comments seem to fit. I assume he’s angry to see an ancient famous elf sword in the hands of a dwarf, who in his eyes, has no right to it.
7) Why doesn’t Thorin tell Legolas how he obtained Orcrist?
I’m not sure. This kind of bugs me as it seems like it would help the situation if he explained to Legolas, especially that Elrond was ok with it. But, I suppose Thorin is being really guarded with the despised elves, and doesn’t want to say anything more than he has to for fear of giving away the purpose of the quest. But still, when it's pointed in his face, I kind of expected more of a reaction.
Also, when they are hustled off, and Bofur makes the comment about Bilbo, I think that’s the first we’ve seen of Thorin showing concern for the Hobbit’s whereabouts.
8) Did you like this shot of the bridge, the river, the waterfalls, the pillars and doors and so on?
Oh yes, I think it’s a really lovely shot, I really like the waterfall, and definitely a nice change from the gloom and spiderwebs of Mirkwood. And I like the shot of the dwarves marching in, Thorin is practically stalking as he leads the dwarves, and boy does he not look happy!
9) What did you think Bilbo was up to when you first saw the movie? If you’ve read the book, you know. Did you think he made it through the doors?
Well, I’ve read the book, so I knew what he was up to, but with the way it was filmed, it wasn’t obvious whether or not he actually made it in.
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
It’s certainly a beautiful and grand palace, but I was a little distracted by all the open walkways over tall chasms. I too pictured a more enclosed place, dark and not welcoming. There’s almost too much to take in.
11) What’s your opinion of this introduction, with all those little glimpses of Thranduil? Cool? Cheesy?
Best visual introduction of a Middle-earth character ever? Yeah, I’d say so - it was very striking, especially the shots of the crown and his eyes. I guess technically it was a re-introduction since we had seen him in the AUJ prologue, but there’s something about seeing him in his element on his throne. And it does appear that there is a scene missing where all of the dwarves are brought before him first, which we will hopefully get in the EE.
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world? Is it just silly or does it fit Kili’s character? Is Kili’s interest in Tauriel romantic or is he just giving her a hard time?
I thought it was a bit inappropriate and crass, not very Tolkien-like. I’ve chosen not to let it bug me much, but I could certainly do without it. Tauriel’s response was good, and got a laugh. I do appreciate Cirashala’s comments a while back that when Kili asked Tauriel for a weapon during the spider fight, she remembered that here and knew he was unarmed, and therefore didn’t need to search him.
13) Do you think Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable with Legolas’ question and if so, why? What does the remark about Kili’s height mean?
Yeah, she seems uncomfortable, and the remark about his height perhaps shows her inexperience with encountering dwarves, but then she realized she probably shouldn’t be commenting on stuff like that.
14) Do you think that Legolas is jealous or a little irked that Tauriel seems sympathetic towards a Dwarf prisoner?
Probably just irked at this point, not understanding why the dwarf would engage her, and why she would be interested enough to respond.
15) Finally, how do you think this entire Woodland Realm sequence relates to the same series of events in the book?
One thing I never could really understand from the book was the whole feasting in the forest and tempting the dwarves from the path. Why have lights going on and off to lure them farther in? Then claim they were being attacked? And what the heck were they doing feasting in a creepy, spider infested forest anyways?
Again, I agree with your comments that this sequence was amped up to provide a little more action, and cut out some of the elven silliness. I do think it was an interesting choice not to separate Thorin from the others – maybe they didn’t want to do it now since they were already planning to break up the dwarves in Lake-town?
16) Any other comments?
The elves armor is pretty cool in this sequence.
Thorin’s hair: post-action and covered in cobwebs, well it just looks fantastic as he’s stalking across the entrance to the Woodland Realm.
Thanks Noria!
"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying
“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed
|
|
|
DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 19 2014, 8:20pm
Post #4 of 19
(2387 views)
Shortcut
|
1) Some people really hate Legolas' appearance in this movie. What do you think?
He's fine. I don't particularly like PJ's characterisation of Legolas in either movie trilogy. The same is true for Gimli. I'm not sure the films really "get" the characters. But I'm glad Legolas is in it - it would have been a notable absence otherwise. Though the same could be said for Arwen. His appearance is far less annoying than, say, the absence of a Talking Purse, a missing Enchanted River, or no Scouring.
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
It'll be interesting to see what happens in the final film. I'd expect there to be less animosity between the Elves and Dwarves after the battle (as in the book), but something must irk him off. We'll see!
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
Loved it! I'd be happy with a full cameo from Gimli.
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly?
With all those weapons, why was it so easy to be caught by the Spiders? And why didn't the Goblin-King find them all?
5) What do you think of the way the film makers have chosen to present Tauriel? Do you find her convincing as a captain of the guard?
I'm not sure it's obvious in this scene. Legolas seems in charge here.
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword?
It's understandable. Thorin wouldn't be happy if he found an Elf or Man with the Arkenstone ...
7) Why doesn’t Thorin tell Legolas how he obtained Orcrist?
Would Legolas or Thranduil believe him? How would Thranduil later react if he knew it was Gandalf behind this mission?
8) Did you like this shot of the bridge, the river, the waterfalls, the pillars and doors and so on?
Absolutely. It looks stunning. I can only imagine what Menegroth might look like, compared to this.
9) What did you think Bilbo was up to when you first saw the movie? If you’ve read the book, you know. Did you think he made it through the doors?
Burying the innocent creature he just slaughtered.
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
Completely different to my imagined-halls. Substantially bigger and more elaborate. I like it though.
11) What’s your opinion of this introduction, with all those little glimpses of Thranduil? Cool? Cheesy?
It had similarities to Galadriel's (and Celeborn's) entrance in FOTR. It has a sort of ethereal, elegant and graceful aspect to it - just how you imagine Elves really.
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world? Is it just silly or does it fit Kili’s character? Is Kili’s interest in Tauriel romantic or is he just giving her a hard time?
Nobody complained when Bilbo said "What have I got in my pocket?" to Gollum. This isn't Tolkien's world - it's Jackson's adaptation.
13) Do you think Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable with Legolas’ question and if so, why? What does the remark about Kili’s height mean?
14) Do you think that Legolas is jealous or a little irked that Tauriel seems sympathetic towards a Dwarf prisoner?
I find this exchange between Tauriel and Legolas really awkward. Why is she noting how tall he is? Why would Legolas care? This is one part of DOS I wish hadn't made it in the final film, if i'm honest.
Thanks Noria!
|
|
|
Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Jul 19 2014, 8:28pm
Post #5 of 19
(2390 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Put a warning on that screencap, Kim!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Like--Caution: May induce swooning.  
1) Some people really hate Legolas' appearance in this movie. What do you think?
Yeah, he looks different, but it doesn’t bother me. His armor gives him a harder edge vs his introduction in FOTR where he’s in a soft cloak and lighting.
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
Well, he certainly does seem to be more aggressive and hostile. I suppose part of that could be that he’s been out hunting creatures and is suspicious of anyone else he encounters in the forest, especially since he’s been living in such an isolated realm. When he comments on the first photo, it’s kind of neutral and a little curious, but then his comment about the second photo, it’s more hostile.
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
I thought it was great! Provided a nice little chuckle and a “hey!”
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly?
I thought it was a nice fun little touch. Does anyone know what the elf is saying as he confiscates the knives?
5) What do you think of the way the film makers have chosen to present Tauriel? Do you find her convincing as a captain of the guard?
I agree with your comments. I really like Tauriel, both the look/design of her character and Evangeline Lilly’s performance. She does seem like a fierce warrior, pretty deadly with knives and arrows, and more than capable of being the captain of the guard.
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword?
Well, I assumed he meant that those were his ancestors. I’m not that familiar with the elves backstories, but Elrond did say they were forged by the high elves of the west, so Legolas’ comments seem to fit. I assume he’s angry to see an ancient famous elf sword in the hands of a dwarf, who in his eyes, has no right to it.
7) Why doesn’t Thorin tell Legolas how he obtained Orcrist?
I’m not sure. This kind of bugs me as it seems like it would help the situation if he explained to Legolas, especially that Elrond was ok with it. But, I suppose Thorin is being really guarded with the despised elves, and doesn’t want to say anything more than he has to for fear of giving away the purpose of the quest. But still, when it's pointed in his face, I kind of expected more of a reaction.
Also, when they are hustled off, and Bofur makes the comment about Bilbo, I think that’s the first we’ve seen of Thorin showing concern for the Hobbit’s whereabouts.
8) Did you like this shot of the bridge, the river, the waterfalls, the pillars and doors and so on?
Oh yes, I think it’s a really lovely shot, I really like the waterfall, and definitely a nice change from the gloom and spiderwebs of Mirkwood. And I like the shot of the dwarves marching in, Thorin is practically stalking as he leads the dwarves, and boy does he not look happy!
9) What did you think Bilbo was up to when you first saw the movie? If you’ve read the book, you know. Did you think he made it through the doors?
Well, I’ve read the book, so I knew what he was up to, but with the way it was filmed, it wasn’t obvious whether or not he actually made it in.
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
It’s certainly a beautiful and grand palace, but I was a little distracted by all the open walkways over tall chasms. I too pictured a more enclosed place, dark and not welcoming. There’s almost too much to take in.
11) What’s your opinion of this introduction, with all those little glimpses of Thranduil? Cool? Cheesy?
Best visual introduction of a Middle-earth character ever? Yeah, I’d say so - it was very striking, especially the shots of the crown and his eyes. I guess technically it was a re-introduction since we had seen him in the AUJ prologue, but there’s something about seeing him in his element on his throne. And it does appear that there is a scene missing where all of the dwarves are brought before him first, which we will hopefully get in the EE.
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world? Is it just silly or does it fit Kili’s character? Is Kili’s interest in Tauriel romantic or is he just giving her a hard time?
I thought it was a bit inappropriate and crass, not very Tolkien-like. I’ve chosen not to let it bug me much, but I could certainly do without it. Tauriel’s response was good, and got a laugh. I do appreciate Cirashala’s comments a while back that when Kili asked Tauriel for a weapon during the spider fight, she remembered that here and knew he was unarmed, and therefore didn’t need to search him.
13) Do you think Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable with Legolas’ question and if so, why? What does the remark about Kili’s height mean?
Yeah, she seems uncomfortable, and the remark about his height perhaps shows her inexperience with encountering dwarves, but then she realized she probably shouldn’t be commenting on stuff like that.
14) Do you think that Legolas is jealous or a little irked that Tauriel seems sympathetic towards a Dwarf prisoner?
Probably just irked at this point, not understanding why the dwarf would engage her, and why she would be interested enough to respond.
15) Finally, how do you think this entire Woodland Realm sequence relates to the same series of events in the book?
One thing I never could really understand from the book was the whole feasting in the forest and tempting the dwarves from the path. Why have lights going on and off to lure them farther in? Then claim they were being attacked? And what the heck were they doing feasting in a creepy, spider infested forest anyways?
Again, I agree with your comments that this sequence was amped up to provide a little more action, and cut out some of the elven silliness. I do think it was an interesting choice not to separate Thorin from the others – maybe they didn’t want to do it now since they were already planning to break up the dwarves in Lake-town?
16) Any other comments?
The elves armor is pretty cool in this sequence.
Thorin’s hair: post-action and covered in cobwebs, well it just looks fantastic as he’s stalking across the entrance to the Woodland Realm.
Thanks Noria!
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
|
|
|
Kim
Valinor
Jul 20 2014, 2:51am
Post #6 of 19
(2324 views)
Shortcut
|
Hope you didn't hit your head on anything as you fainted. I'll try to remember that for next time. In the meantime, now that you've had sufficient warning, enjoy! 
"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying
“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed
|
|
|
Old Pilgrim
Rivendell
Jul 20 2014, 6:06am
Post #7 of 19
(2319 views)
Shortcut
|
1) Some people really hate Legolas' appearance in this movie. What do you think?
I am amongst those people then. From the first time I saw him on screen I was negatively surprised how much they changed him from LOTR movies, especially with those strange and completely unecessary lenses which are obviously fake. I also didn't like his characterization which was too harsh for my taste after we saw him much softer in LOTR. His role isn't so big and that's just fine with me.
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
Like I already said - he is much different character then he was in LOTR and I really don't like that. He remembers me of some coldblood serial killer in some scenes with those blue eyes and rude behaviour. It's probably because he Will go through some sort of transformation in the next movie and become a better person like his father, but I still feel those changes unecessary. We learn only that he hates dwarves and clearly thinks he is above them.
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
We already heard of Gimli in AUJ and I have nothing against it. It is a nice call back to LOTR like you said and it's fine for me.
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly?
It is a nice moment, though I have never study it deeper. His behaviour is understandable knowing his wicked nature and annoyance of elves.
5) What do you think of the way the film makers have chosen to present Tauriel? Do you find her convincing as a captain of the guard?
I must say I really like Tauriel, much more then I ever thought I would. Evangeline Lilly really played her well and she is far from some killer machine we heard about before DOS came out. It is nice to see such warm and friendly person amids cold Thranduil and Legolas and I am really happy they decided to included it in film. Though I really like her personality, I don't find her very convinsing as a captain of the guard, mainly for two reasons: she should be more cold and official in that position + she would never disobeyed her king's orders in such high position before talking at least with Legolas.
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword?
He recognized the sword was made by elves in Gondolin like Gandalf and Elrond before him, so I am not surprised by that. He is elven prince so he should have that knowledge. He is angry because he is convinced that Thorin stole Orcrist and desecrated an ancient elven blade.
7) Why doesn’t Thorin tell Legolas how he obtained Orcrist?
Probably because he is too stubborn and doesn't feel the need to explain anything to Legolas. He is a proud King afterall!
8) Did you like this shot of the bridge, the river, the waterfalls, the pillars and doors and so on?
It was a very nice introduction of the Woodland Realm, it remembers me of Doriath but it should be longer and we should see more of it. I think we saw much more of other elven places so far like Rivendell and Lorien then Thranduil's dominion.
9) What did you think Bilbo was up to when you first saw the movie? If you’ve read the book, you know. Did you think he made it through the doors?
I read the book so I knew what he is up to.
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
Like I said I really like Thranduil's residence, it's much better then in the book and a very appropriate home for wood elves. We should see more of it though. It's not as friendly as Rivendell, nor as majestic as Lorien, but that's just right because it shouldn't be since we are talking about different kind of elves here.
11) What’s your opinion of this introduction, with all those little glimpses of Thranduil? Cool? Cheesy?
Like you said there is definitely a scene where all Dwarves are bring before Thranduil because otherwise there would be no point of showing us this scene. I really like his portrayal, it's so majestic and proud yet still not on the same level as Galadriel which is right. When seeing him that way I immediately knew we are going to meet someone important.
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world? Is it just silly or does it fit Kili’s character? Is Kili’s interest in Tauriel romantic or is he just giving her a hard time?
I found it silly and not inappropriate. We all know Kili, so something like that would be expected from him and it makes the atmosphere a little less tense. At this point he is just giving her a hard time I think.
13) Do you think Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable with Legolas’ question and if so, why? What does the remark about Kili’s height mean?
She definitely seems a little uncomfortable. I believe she has some love interest for Legolas and feels good seeing Legolas beeing jealous or at least that's how I understand this scene.
14) Do you think that Legolas is jealous or a little irked that Tauriel seems sympathetic towards a Dwarf prisoner?
He probably is though I didn't notice his love interest towards Tauriel. If he loves her, he is definitely good at hiding this but it could just be brother-sister relationships in which case he also wouldn't like her messing with dwarf.
15) Finally, how do you think this entire Woodland Realm sequence relates to the same series of events in the book?
I like it, though it should be longer and we should see more of it. I hope we will see more of it in EE.
16) Any other comments?
Great discussion Noria! I really enjoyed answering your questions and my anwers would be even longer if I would have more time.
|
|
|
Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Jul 20 2014, 8:02am
Post #8 of 19
(2319 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Different from the others but this realm still says ELF!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
1) Some people really hate Legolas' appearance in this movie. What do you think?
Eh, does nothing much for me, and this is coming from a LotR Leggy Lass who got sucked into ME, them books, because of him. If the aim was to make him younger, they definitely pushed the wrong buttons for me. I feel he's projecting older than in LotR (notwthstanding the physical reality of OB's age), which is weird to say the least.
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
Character-wise, yes. I guess they're going with the whole "Less wise, more dangerous" angle and running with it. I guess they also wanted to show the toughness needed to survive in an environment like Mirkwood, which his portrayal in LotR, didn't give an indication of (but well, he was not in Mirkwood was he?). He does show some leadership here and seems a veteran, which is befitting the Elvenking's son as I don't expect Thranduil to cut him slack and concessions just cos.
Even though he has sixty years to morph into the LotR Legolas, I don't like the way they made him rude and just bordering on detestable. They ran out of bounds with this one, I believe. Even if he is a true provincial, he oughta have some general knowledge and shouldn't be such a froggy in the well with Gloin's locket.
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
Fine if Dwarf jokes are the order of the day. Funny the first time, but has been just cringey after.
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly?
I like it. Dwarf with an attitude, and it's nicely played, not the forced humour with Gloin's locket.
5) What do you think of the way the film makers have chosen to present Tauriel? Do you find her convincing as a captain of the guard?
She seems to hold her own in this scene, but Legolas seems to be the one the group deferred to so if both are Captains, why are 2 captains needed for a simple Spider raid/incidental spider eats deprivation?
Actually, I avoided the boards before DOS screened so had no prior idea about the concept of Tauriel at all and even avoided all reports and reviews until I saw it myself. So her debut was nice enough, though she didn't seem all that Captainy, maybe a second in commanded or aide to Legolas was what I thought initially. Though seeing how she seemed to be featured prominently as the movie progressed, I had the sneaking suspicion she was a "For FEMALES of the WORLD!" insert, and I was ready to curse the conventional marketing/PR conquer-by-demographics-and-poll thinking until I learnt how she came to be.
So here's the elephant in the room I keep seeing people ignore, defend or shoot: I wouldn't shoot her, and the ideal for me is for her not to exist in DOS, but while you won't find me defending her, I can't ignore her since I don't dislike her either and she's too damn prominent in the movie. I do like her fine as a character, from what we've seen (though I'm eagerly looking forward to getting my copy of Cloaks and Daggers but not to seeing Tauriel on the cover). And I didn't mind a female Elf warrior, and I didn't mind one who was a Captain. I didn't even mind a bit of seeming romance (for Legolas at this juncture), but not all at once, and certainly not in DOS, especially an insert with more screentime than Thranduil and a better character/worldview than Legolas. The sexualisation may not be overt or revealing as is the norm, but that ridiculously uber-long hair certainly marked her as "Look here, boys!" material.
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword?
Racial pride and probably something in the fact the fine sword was in the hands of a Dwarf, an intruding Dwarf no less.
7) Why doesn’t Thorin tell Legolas how he obtained Orcrist?
Typical Dwarven stiff-necked belligerence.
8) Did you like this shot of the bridge, the river, the waterfalls, the pillars and doors and so on?
We LOVES it, precious, we does!
9) What did you think Bilbo was up to when you first saw the movie? If you’ve read the book, you know. Did you think he made it through the doors?
Prolly just, for the sake pf pacing. Though an outtake might find him just falling a little short, and pondering what's next (like in the cellar later) until he figured it out and timed his entrance with the next opening.
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
We LOVES it, precious, we does! All right, it is really beautifully realised. I think the typical images most of us have of the mirkwood cave are simply caverns carved with through-paths, but the airy space of the Halls are just so different and yet so Elvish and so right for a people of beauty who love the sun. Though, vertigo supremo!
11) What’s your opinion of this introduction, with all those little glimpses of Thranduil? Cool? Cheesy?
I think it was cool. Especially since it made my mum (who was just a pedestrian audience, being a non-English speaker) sit up, knowing we're being introduced to someone important (and a DGLM in X-phile parlance ). But like you, I feel it's not a complete scene in itself. Hoping to see the missing bits in the EE.
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world? Is it just silly or does it fit Kili’s character? Is Kili’s interest in Tauriel romantic or is he just giving her a hard time?
It might have worked if Kili wasn't trying on Cassanova vibes.
13) Do you think Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable with Legolas’ question and if so, why? What does the remark about Kili’s height mean?
She did, and seemed little-girl flustered. And after finishing the movie, I can understand it, but I don't like it because the whole "romance" thing was so feeble/awkward/ill-conceived. Which is part of the gripe I have about inserting her. But while watching it, it seemed she was actually a bit lover-gleeful Legolas was riled up with the attention on her.
14) Do you think that Legolas is jealous or a little irked that Tauriel seems sympathetic towards a Dwarf prisoner?
Yup, consistent with his strange exchange with Gloin, he's a Dwarfist in the making if he ain't already made.
15) Finally, how do you think this entire Woodland Realm sequence relates to the same series of events in the book?
As with the rest of the scenes in the movies, there are bits to like and bits to dislike. But I'll reserve final judgment until after the EE.
16) Any other comments?
EE now!
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four new! posted 16 Jul
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
 Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
|
|
|
Noria
Gondor
Jul 21 2014, 2:36pm
Post #9 of 19
(2240 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thanks all for the great responses
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I enjoy reading the views of people who don’t hate everything about these movies but have criticisms. Interesting stuff!
Real life has kept me busy for the last few days and I’m still a bit short of time. So I’m going to put all my responses this post.
-Riven Delve
“I take the practical view that he can't look younger naturally, and he's got to look sort of younger somehow, so let's do our best.” - well put. That’s my attitude too. Whether what they did with Legolas works seems to vary with the viewer. The choice of such bright blue contacts for Legolas was odd and Orlando even laughs about on the DOS extras but presumably that was what PJ wanted. Oh well.
I agree with you about the use of mutant, but that’s not the first time even in these movies that mistake has been made. It irks me more when Bilbo talks about his (allergic) reaction to horse hair.
-Kim
IIRC, Legolas and Thranduil, while of a different Elven kindred than their Silvan subjects, were not related to the Noldor of Gondolin, one of whom made Orcrist. Unless, of course, Legolas’ unknown mother was a Noldor. But all that really doesn’t matter in the movie. I suppose Legolas is using “kin” to mean race, as in Elves, just like Thorin and Balin refer to the last of their “kinfolk” in the western guardroom of Erebor, as a generic term for their people.
“One thing I never could really understand from the book was the whole feasting in the forest and tempting the dwarves from the path. Why have lights going on and off to lure them farther in? Then claim they were being attacked? And what the heck were they doing feasting in a creepy, spider infested forest anyways?” I don’t think that the Elves were deliberately luring the Dwarves but I agree about their choice of a picnic ground. That was always strange to me. Also the Elvenking claiming his people were being attacked was a bit much.
-Daniel
I agree that Legolas and Gimli are different from their book counterparts but so are many of the characters in both LotR and TH. I’m OK with that. And since I’m happy to be without the Talking Purse, hope to get the Enchanted River in the DoS EE, and understand why the Scouring was omitted (great though it is in the book), I have no complaints there either. The Ents on the other hand….
Good point about Fili’s weapons – I’m going to suppose that he picked them all up again when Gandalf told the Dwarves to rearm themselves. All the Dwarves were armed when the spiders caught them and we don’t know how that happened though it’s easy to imagine.
I would assume that as the Prince of the Elvenrealm, Legolas outranks everyone but his father, not least a “lowly Silvan Elf”, and would be in charge of any mission he chooses to go on. Tauriel does seem to be issuing orders, reports directly to Thranduil and is the one looking for the “Keeper of the Keys” after the Dwarves escape their cells.
I too find the exchange between Tauriel and Legolas awkward and unclear, which is why I’m interested in people’s opinions.
-Old Pilgrim
About Tauriel, it looks to me like she left the Elvenrealm caves before Thranduil issued his orders about sealing the doors, because it was when Legolas went to tell the door guards about it that he learned she had left. She still abandoned her post so to speak, because I don’t think Thranduil telling her to leave meant that she should go to Laketown. To my mind she was just fed up with his attitude and decided that the right thing to do was to join the fight against evil on her own (with Legolas).
-Lurker
As you say, Tauriel is there in the movies, she has a fairly important secondary role and she’s not going away until her story is told.
I know Tauriel’s hair bothers some people for reasons I don’t get but I scarcely notice it in that sea of long and luxurious Dwarven and Elven hair. Hers is the longest, I’ll grant, but not by that much. Of course her looks are important, just like those of Thranduil, Legolas, Bard, Thorin and his nephews. It’s no accident that they are all good looking men and characters. Both Thorin’s and Thranduil’s hair were obviously carefully designed to be attractive and just as obviously, it worked. But Tauriel could have been handled a lot differently than she was.
Also, IMO Tauriel, Legolas and Thranduil were in the TE as much as they needed to be to carry their story forward, but I really hope for more Thranduil in the EE.
Thanks again everyone.
|
|
|
elostirion74
Rohan
Jul 21 2014, 9:07pm
Post #10 of 19
(2225 views)
Shortcut
|
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
Legolas' portrayal here has a dual purpose. One part of it is to differentiate the Wood-Elves from the Elves of Rivendell, re Beorn's words: "more dangerous and less wise", showing them as more suspicious, much less friendly and more rash. The second is to provide a background to his character in LoTR, showing where he came from/began and providing a basis for his character arc.
The only thing I learn about Legolas is that he's rude, volatile and more openly hostile towards the dwarves.
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
It's fine, just a brief reference before we move on.
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly?
It fits nicely with his character, considering how proud he was of his weapons back in Bag End.
5) What do you think of the way the film makers have chosen to present Tauriel? Do you find her convincing as a captain of the guard?
She's very convincing as as captain of the guard, efficient, highly competent and professional. I like Evangeline Lilly's acting; it's natural and unforced, easy to relate to and seems to me to fit the material that's been written for her.
In general I think Tauriel is a convincing character, but essentially someone which could have been much more interesting or relevant than what they actually decided to use her for in DoS. She gets one superb dialogue with Kili, and I think her character would have been much more interesting and relevant to the core themes of the story if they had decided to go further with that. But that goes beyond the duration of this scene and into the material which comes later.
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword?
Legolas clearly knows about the lineage of the sword and is angry to see someone he deems unworthy of it carry a famous elvish blade. Since he's suspicious about dwarves in general, he probably thinks it's either stolen or acquired by devious means, which makes him even angrier.
8) Did you like this shot of the bridge, the river, the waterfalls, the pillars and doors and so on?
It's a very beautiful shot and shows us that this is a prominent Elvish realm, with all the natural beauty and artistry that comes with it.
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
It's more open than I imagined it, but I don't mind the change. In essence it shows the main qualities of elvish architecture, organic, closer to nature and at the same time superbly artistic. It also feels appropriate for an elvish underground dwelling that there should be more openness and plenty of light. In some ways it's not so unlike Lórien, but it's less ethereal and mysterious and seems less remote.
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world?
It's not particularly Tolkienian, but it fits Kili's character and I don't mind it. It's just a brief exchange after all.
14) Do you think that Legolas is jealous or a little irked that Tauriel seems sympathetic towards a Dwarf prisoner?
I think it's fairly obvious that this is the impression the film makers want to give.
15) Finally, how do you think this entire Woodland Realm sequence relates to the same series of events in the book?
There are some differences, but beyond the rather overly crass way Legolas' is portrayed, I think the alterations we get here are within what I see as ordinary in an adaptation, where you truncate or omit some things which seem too long or not dramatically interesting to include in a film. It's what we get later on, with the portrayal of Thranduil and the opposition between him and Tauriel, that I find the film veers drastically from the core story of the original material.
|
|
|
cats16
Half-elven
Jul 22 2014, 12:17am
Post #11 of 19
(2200 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Apologies for my absences this past month.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Lots of technical problems and other things going on, but I hope to catch up on CHOW this coming weekend.
|
|
|
Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 22 2014, 2:05am
Post #12 of 19
(2213 views)
Shortcut
|
1) Some people really hate Legolas' appearance in this movie. What do you think?
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
Well, here's the thing- he's the king's son, and he's never traveled far beyond the woodland realm. And he's clearly older than 60, what with his oak tree comment in LOTR. He's going to be there whether fans like the departure from the book or not. LOTR was done first, so not having him there would have been far more jarring than him being there, simply because it just makes sense. He's the king's son- what else are they going to do? Wrap him in bubble wrap and never let him leave his bedchambers??? 
That being said, I hated the way he was utilized (sad, because he was one of my favorite characters in LOTR). He acts like a petulant, spoiled brat for a good portion of the film- while I get that he seriously dislikes dwarves, I still expected him to be more elf-like, rather than acting like a whiny teenager. I liked his exchange with Tauriel during "it is our fight" exchange, and his interactions with his father. But they went a bit too far in his interactions with the dwarves, I think. Hostile? Yes. Plain rude and uncouth? Not so much- he's a prince, and should have been able to display restraint and elegance while at the same time be hostile. Thranduil did it masterfully- it ain't that hard
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
Strongly object to the word "mutant"- VERY modern and completely out of place- took me out of the movie for a minute.
As for the reference Gloin makes to his "wee Gimli" I just laughed my rear off. Gimli is 65 years old at the time of the Quest for Erebor and an adult, and was simply deemed too young to go on the quest itself- heck, he is only 12 years younger than Kili at this point! Wee? Yeah right (snorts)- he's the equivalent of about 26 in human years! If that's a "wee lad", then he must have been one tiny kid lol!
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly?
I loved it! I certainly would want to be on his side in a fight! Knowing what I do about him also being a knife thrower, it makes perfect sense that he would have several, much like you wouldn't expect an archer to only have two or three arrows. I counted thirteen weapons- two axes in each boot (4), two hunting knives (2), two swords (2), a warhammer (1), two knives under his coat lapels (2), one in the back of his coat (1), and one inside his coat found when the elf throws him in the dungeon (1). Anyone else see more?
I also think that he's sorely lacking in character moments in general, due to the actor switch in principal photography, and I am happy to see where Fili gets moments to shine I do hope to see more Fili in DOS.
5) What do you think of the way the film makers have chosen to present Tauriel? Do you find her convincing as a captain of the guard?
I absolutely love her, though I was wary before I saw DOS. I did think it odd that she had to fight five spiders solo while there were over a dozen elves in her patrol around her that could have helped, but then I realized that it made more sense- she's very capable as a fighter (doubtless her platoon would know that), and there were thirteen dwarves that could potentially have utilized the distraction and fought back had the others not paid close attention to their prisoners.
I find her to be all business for the most part, and her ability to command and lead those under her charge comes across quite well. However, I don't think someone who has achieved her rank would have left her post, and her occasional recklessness is not a trait suited for leadership, as they have to lead by example. So on one hand she makes a phenomenal captain, but on the other hand there's definitely a bit of immaturity and recklessness that I see resulting from her youth, and if I were her boss I wouldn't have promoted her quite so quickly until she'd had time to develop that stricter discipline required for captains. She has the skill and fighting prowess, but she doesn't have the proper military discipline for such a position.
She does what she believes is right, and that I definitely do admire. But there's also the element of her leaving her post and willingly defying her king. Not only that, but she also endangered her prince's life as well when she left him to fight the orcs himself (and Bolg very nearly did hurt him- she's lucky it was just a nosebleed and a few bruises!). If I had been her, I would have resigned my position first, rather than leaving my post on duty- that would have been the responsible way to do the right thing, IMO. By resigning her post, she wouldn't have jeopardized those under her charge, and she also wouldn't have been disobeying both Thranduil and then Legolas. And if something did happen to him during the Bolg fight, she would have been released from responsibility had she resigned beforehand, and she would have been free to help Kili and do what's right. As it stands, she nearly got her prince killed due to her disobedience- which, given her military position, would have been considered treason, a very serious charge.
So as a king, I would not trust her to do her job, nor to protect my family from harm. But as a person, I admire her for doing what was right, despite the prejudice others of her race held. Great elf, bad captain.
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword?
I think he feels just as insulted about a dwarf having a long lost relic of his people as Thorin would if an elf had the arkenstone (thanks to the posters above me with this analogy- it's perfect!). I also think that, like others before me, he thought it was stolen, as he could not conceive of an elf bequeathing it to a dwarf willingly. Doubtless he suspects foul play, and possibly violence during the sword's acquisition. And this might also be a nod to the fact that Thranduil is bitter because he didn't get an elven ring, yet here a dwarf is holding a great treasure of his kin? Yet another relic Legolas's family was denied.
7) Why doesn’t Thorin tell Legolas how he obtained Orcrist?
Thorin is pissed that they got captured, especially by those he hates the most (aside from orcs). Why would he tell them that Elrond gave him the sword? Legolas wouldn't believe him anyway, and it would shed too much light on what they were doing regarding the quest. Answering the first question only opens up the opportunity for further questioning, and before they knew it their whole quest would have been blurted out. Even if it didn't, Thorin knows that Thranduil isn't stupid (despite what he personally thinks, I'm sure ) and with enough information he would likely figure it out (which he eventually did). Better to remain silent than to reveal the quest, since the other elves tried to dissuade them from it too.
8) Did you like this shot of the bridge, the river, the waterfalls, the pillars and doors and so on?
I loved it!!! It was a wonderful nod to elvish magic- the evil taint spread through the whole huge forest, but there's still that tiny pocket of light where evil has not yet been permitted to enter
9) What did you think Bilbo was up to when you first saw the movie? If you’ve read the book, you know. Did you think he made it through the doors?
I know And yes I think he did, because the camera follows through the door right as it's close to shutting, then the next shot is from far above, so clearly not from his POV anymore. Just an off topic remark about this part of the scene- I loved that Legolas turned back as though he heard something- a great nod to the book about Bilbo narrowly avoiding elf ears!
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
I thought it was so beautiful and elven (though part of me wants to go- "doesn't anyone in ME believe in guard rails?!?!" ). I love the details- the light filtering in from above, the birds flying inside it, the stone pillars carved like trees. It felt very much like a forest, and I can see resemblances of elvish architecture but yet a distinct difference between the other elvish realms- a nice nod to the different elvish styles. I also liked that it resembled Lorien more than Rivendell- a nod to both populations being all Silvan save for leadership, despite the two different realms
11) What’s your opinion of this introduction, with all those little glimpses of Thranduil? Cool? Cheesy?
It makes me want the EE, as it's obvious there's a cut scene here! I liked it- mysterious enough for the TE, but the crown still gives away who he is.
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world? Is it just silly or does it fit Kili’s character? Is Kili’s interest in Tauriel romantic or is he just giving her a hard time?
This is a complex scene, despite how simple it seems. There are a LOT of tiny nuances in it that speak volumes to those willing to look closely. He is genuinely confused by why he's not being searched (immediately after seeing Fili thoroughly searched), but he wants to try to appear confident rather than confused in front of their "enemy" and ends up spouting off the first thing that comes into his head (if you notice, he speaks the trouser line a bit faster than he did the search question, like he's trying to rectify his momentary lapse in appearing confident). I also think part of it is he's pushing to see what she will and will not tolerate and find out where the boundaries are- I've seen that same expression on my daughter's faces when they're being defiant and trying to get away with something Another thing I'm thinking is that he was impressed by her actions in the forest, and he's attempting to flirt but it comes out badly because he sucks at flirting (highlighting his inexperience with ladies- we saw this in Rivendell too).
As for her reaction- elves have good memories, and he asked her for a dagger during the spider fight- she had no need to search him, as she already knew he was unarmed I like how she handled it- very business like and didn't let him see that he ruffled her feathers with the comment. Doubtless she's endured plenty of challenges as a female in a higher up position from her male peers, and is also used to prisoners' insults and jabs, and knows how to keep that jailer mask on. He was looking for a reaction, and she didn't give him one- she countered him right back.
So I think it fits Kili's character in that he seems to be a bit at a loss for what to do, he's trying to appear tough but his natural curiosity still comes through (and he tries to cover it up). He's also youthful, and testing the boundaries can be a childish trait. He was trying to get a rise out of her and didn't succeed- she called him on his bluff and delivered it right back to him, which impressed him.
What would really help in understanding this interaction more conclusively and their motives is to have that missing EE scene with Thranduil come out, because what the dwarves and elves said to each other in the dungeons is no doubt reflective of what happened in the throne room prior. I think that reactions and words spoken during that greatly influence how the dwarves reacted in the dungeons, and for all we know there might have been more words exchanged on either Kili's or Tauriel's part during that scene, or on the parts of the other company members that influences how Kili reacts to his captivity. We don't have all the pieces yet to be conclusive about why Kili said what he did- only what words, expressions and body language can tell us. I'm good at reading people's body language- I'm not perfect at it. Another reason to look forward to the DOS EE
I do think the line was inappropriate for Tolkien's world though, and could have been omitted.
13) Do you think Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable with Legolas’ question and if so, why? What does the remark about Kili’s height mean?
I think she's curious about the dwarves, and was undoubtedly told that they were short and hairy. He is probably taller than she expected (and less hairy that she thought, I'm sure), and that surprised her. Plus, she's very curious about the world beyond her borders- she made that quite clear in her starlight speech later on. With Thranduil being so isolationist and Legolas hating dwarves, I can definitely see why she would be uncomfortable if it was suspected that she was curious about them, rather than hating them herself as well. Her job is jailer, and sympathy toward the prisoners could garner suspicion from her superiors.
I also do think, based on this interaction and on her later interaction with Thranduil, that she does have a crush on Legolas, and might have been pleasantly flustered at the thought that Kili staring was making him jealous- why else would he be so worried about it? I think she's at that stage where she likes him, but she doesn't yet know he likes her and is trying to hide it.
14) Do you think that Legolas is jealous or a little irked that Tauriel seems sympathetic towards a Dwarf prisoner?
I think it's both. He might be a bit jealous, but I also think that he's irked because he doesn't like dwarves. He views them with suspicion, and he cares about Tauriel. No doubt he wants to protect her from these "deplorable dwarves". Plus, he might be aware of her curiosity about the outside world and doesn't want her to fill her head up with dwarf nonsense. I've noticed in the real world that if someone that another person cares about- whether in a family caring or a romantic caring, interacts with someone of a different race (and the person is racist), they get upset and annoyed or question why. It's the absurdity of racism- the "I don't want you chatting with them" attitude. I can't stand it, but sadly I have seen it and it's stupid but it really does happen 
15) Finally, how do you think this entire Woodland Realm sequence relates to the same series of events in the book?
Well, it's pretty obvious that it veers quite a bit off course from the book. I had the same reaction as another poster- why the heck were they having a party in the middle of a forest infested with giant spiders?!?! Not only that, but cinematically it wouldn't have worked. If it had followed the book, there would have been three times where we see black screen because it was supposed to be the dwarves stumbling about in darkness and unable to see each other. It works fine in a book, but on screen? We'd have black screen with random voices shouting, and it would be like going back to the radio era and annoyed people who came to watch a movie, not listen to it. If no black screen, that meant that we'd see the dwarves stumbling about and go "How can you NOT see him? He's right in front of you, you idiot!" So either way, PJ couldn't win. Best to omit that part entirely, IMO.
As for the rest of it, I think it followed the sequence of events pretty darn well. The elves did capture them after the spider attack, though in the movie it was still happening, rather than a couple days later. Thorin was with them in the movie, which I liked better (I don't see how the realm would have randomly had one cell far away from the rest of the dungeon- it doesn't make sense). They were captured (and IIRC they were searched), taken in front of Thranduil, pissed him off and tossed in jail. Bilbo squeaked in through the doors before they shut, and Legolas heard him but didn't see him. Not far off from the book at all.
The difference is mainly in details. Legolas wasn't in the book (hadn't been created yet) but it makes sense to have him here. Orcrist taken from Thorin did happen, but in the movie it happened now rather than later. And Tauriel is an addition, but we don't know much about the dialogue between dwarves and the elves, however we know some happened just not what. So not that far off in that way either, when you think about it (other than language styles- mutant, trouser joke too modern).
TH is a book that doesn't have a lot of details, unlike LOTR. I like it when details are added, because otherwise we'd have a pretty sketchy movie, TBH. I would prefer them to be slightly better organized, and characters like Legolas better written, but to omit them entirely would, IMO, be a mistake. Thranduil isn't the only darn elf in the realm (else how could it be called a realm?) so having others there and speaking and interacting with the dwarves is necessary for a film adaptation.
|
|
|
Noria
Gondor
Jul 22 2014, 12:13pm
Post #13 of 19
(2185 views)
Shortcut
|
It’s interesting that a number of people feel that the film makers went too far with the portrayal of Legolas as “wild and more dangerous”. I can’t disagree, though it doesn’t bother me much.
-Elostirion
I too enjoyed Evangeline Lilly’s performance and I like the way you put it: “natural and unforced, easy to relate to”.
-Cirashala:
For better or for worse, Book Gimli is 65 but movie Gimli is evidently a small child at this time.
That’s a good point about the missing scene shedding some light on the Kili/Tauriel exchange. Another reason to hope that we get that scene in the EE.
|
|
|
elostirion74
Rohan
Jul 22 2014, 5:38pm
Post #14 of 19
(2157 views)
Shortcut
|
|
the woodland feast and adaptation
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
First of all: really impressive and detailed response. Interesting comment and analysis of Tauriel's decisions as a captain; I hadn't really given much thought to this aspect of her character.
"I had the same reaction as another poster- why the heck were they having a party in the middle of a forest infested with giant spiders?!?! Not only that, but cinematically it wouldn't have worked. If it had followed the book, there would have been three times where we see black screen because it was supposed to be the dwarves stumbling about in darkness and unable to see each other. It works fine in a book, but on screen?"
You know, the elves are able to defend themselves and it's not so extraordinary that they should be feasting in a part of the forest which is close to the centre of their realm and partly protected by their magic.
While it's perfectly ok to omit a scene like the woodland feast, I cannot agree with your reasoning as to it being completely unsuitable for cinematic purposes. Adaptation is after all very rarely about depicting the original literally, but often about tweaking or refashioning the original material, using some of the essential features or themes of the original work, but adapting it to fit the film format. The film makers do this very often, both in the scene with the trolls, during the riddle game etc. You could have had a woodland feast, but only use it once for instance. You don't need to have the screen go black, but could have arranged the scene as having the elves feeling suspicious, angry and taken aback and their guards quickly capturing and surrounding the dwarves.
|
|
|
Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 22 2014, 5:46pm
Post #15 of 19
(2173 views)
Shortcut
|
|
can you see the movie dwarves begging for food?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I can't. The dwarves in the book were, for the post part, rather wimpy. They didn't even have any weapons on them until Thorin acquired Orcrist!
The way they've characterized the dwarves so far, I have a feeling Thorin would rather die on his noble mission than seek aid from these particular elves, especially with the bad blood between him and Thranduil. And since it's indicated they asked for aid after Erebor fell, and Thranduil did not give it, I doubt Thorin would bother to ask again- he'd likely know what the answer would be.
No, with the movie dwarves being the way they are, I could not see them begging for food. Their pride would not allow it. So at that point the movie would have to explain why they didn't creep away from the scene, with a different explanation than the book, and it would be a lot more complicated and harder to explain.
That's why I said it's better to omit the scene entirely, because of the base premise that these tough, warrior, prejudiced, prideful movie dwarves would rather cut off their arms than seek aid from Thranduil. And given Thorin's face when they were marched into the gates, I have a feeling the words going inside his head would have made many a mother fuming if they were spoken out loud!
|
|
|
Escapist
Gondor
Jul 22 2014, 5:57pm
Post #16 of 19
(2143 views)
Shortcut
|
I think that the sequence of scenes that I imagine it belonging to shove TH:DOS into yet another separate genre: horror / suspense / drama
Within the original text, there are elements of suspense / horror- situational comedy - political drama - and adventure / action. Additional layers of mystery drama can be inferred from Dol Guldur and war action from Bo5A without much stretching.
It seems that this team has made the choice to stick mostly within the action/adventure mode. The eerie psychological thriller / horror aspect of the mysterious river and visions of elves feasting creating burning desires that are met with cold consequences just isn't in that vein. I could imagine it and enjoy doing so but that isn't apparently fitting in this particular movie's vision and tone.
I think some experimentation with varying tone / genre was met with severely divergent and at times quite irritated responses with regards to the Bag End scene. I personally, don't see an issue with varying tones and moods and genres in a single movie, but I get the impression that somewhere this is strictly and specifically listed in the top 10 list of movie making sins somewhere.
|
|
|
elostirion74
Rohan
Jul 22 2014, 9:46pm
Post #17 of 19
(2143 views)
Shortcut
|
Hmmm, you make some valid points. I don't neccessarily see them begging for food, but I don't really feel that they have to either. It's enough for the dwarves to be confused and exhausted after a long fight or in despair see no other alternatives. And not all of the dwarves seem as pig-headed and stubborn as Thorin. Thorin could be strongly opposed to seeking help from the wood elves, but be persuaded by Balin..
I think the reasons why this part was omitted is more related to what Escapist wrote in his post, about the tone of certain parts of the Hobbit not fitting in with PJ's vision for DoS, which focused much more on action, adventure and politics.
|
|
|
Kerewyn
Rohan
Jul 24 2014, 8:16am
Post #18 of 19
(2139 views)
Shortcut
|
1) Some people really hate Legolas' appearance in this movie. What do you think?
I have no problem with it. He looks a little more hard-line here, his eyes don’t have the same warmth and that’s in keeping with his yet-to-germinate pre-Fellowship character.
2) Do agree that Legolas is different in character than he was in LotR? If so, why do you think that is? What do we learn about Legolas in this scene, for instance when he comments on Gloin's family.
He may have not had the chance to get out much in the past several hundred years or so – that is, to fully experience other cultures in ME. He would be pretty much his father’s son, and spend time defending the Woodland Realm, as well as receiving some racial indoctrination against dwarves. We learn here that there’s no love lost.
3) What do you think of this call back to LotR, that is, the mention of the wee lad Gimli? Just fine? Cheesy?
I like it. It made me chuckle. Speaking of call back to LOTR, this scene echoed for me (though on a greater scale) Haldir’s arrow aimed at Gimli in Lothlorien.
4) Do you like this character moment for Fili? Or is it just silly? No, it’s great. Fili needs more moments. It also highlighted this well-armed characteristic for him, which I may have missed until then. Again, a LOTR hark-back to Aragorn having to disarm outside Theoden’s halls. (I love noting what reminds me of what!)
6) What do you think that Legolas means by his words about his kin and Gondolin? Why do you think he is so angry about the sword? His anger may come from his racial intolerance, or because he feels Thorin has come by it by dishonest means. This information, passed on to Thranduil, could have triggered the King’s suspicion about ‘attempted burglary, or something of that ilk.’
7) Why doesn’t Thorin tell Legolas how he obtained Orcrist?
Because Thorin is not going to give anything away. As we’ll soon find out further.
9) What did you think Bilbo was up to when you first saw the movie? If you’ve read the book, you know. Did you think he made it through the doors?
I had no doubt he made it through the doors, but then, I know. For movie-firsters, this could add a nice little element of surprise for when we next see Bilbo, inside.
10) What do you think of Thranduil’s residence? Is it how you imagined it? How does it compare to Erebor and the Goblin caves in your mind? Or Rivendell and Lorien?
It is quite amazing, and what we see is just the tip of the iceberg. I wish there were more vistas of other parts of the kingdom. Currently my ‘visual’ imagination has it smaller than Erebor and the G Caves, but that’s because I’ve seen so little, and this inner vision hasn’t had a chance to expand yet. From the book, I think I did expect a more conventional looking hall – like cave for the throne room.
11) What’s your opinion of this introduction, with all those little glimpses of Thranduil? Cool? Cheesy?
Cool, of course. In fact, having seen these glimpses in the trailer, I was very looking forward to seeing more of this character. Very nice editing work, I thought, though I have heard refer to it as the ‘porn star intro.’ Considering I am now one of Thranduil’s Thralls, this is where the magic started.
12) What did you think of this controversial exchange? Is it inappropriate in Tolkien’s world? Is it just silly or does it fit Kili’s character? Is Kili’s interest in Tauriel romantic or is he just giving her a hard time?
Being a movie-firster with LOTR, I’ve never have a problem with departure from canon. I like it, it made me smile and felt a little irreverent. It also expanded both Kili and Tauriel’s characters for me, showing a lighter side to both of them. I see this as more of a ‘flirty’ rather than romantic moment.
13) Do you think Tauriel seems a little uncomfortable with Legolas’ question and if so, why? What does the remark about Kili’s height mean? This line did seem out of place to me. But maybe in context, it is in place, showing the subtle workings of some relationship dynamics going on here. Tauriel was uncomfortable that Legolas noticed their exchange, and is now playing on it, to make him uncomfortable too. To test him perhaps, or make him jealous. A touch of “high school game-playing.”
'People don't know where I begin and latex ends, which has always been an ambition for me.' (Martin Freeman)
|
|
|
Noria
Gondor
Jul 24 2014, 12:27pm
Post #19 of 19
(2108 views)
Shortcut
|
Good point about Legolas looking harder than he does in LotR to reflect a harder character. It could even have been deliberate! We’ll see what Legolas is like at the end of TBOTFA.
“Porn star intro” – ROTFL – obviously I haven’t seen enough porn movies since I never would have picked up on that. Nor would I have thought that the bits of Thranduil that we saw would be featured in that type of film.
Yours is another interesting perspective on the Tauriel/Legolas relationship, which I still don't really understand or at least have not been able to clarify to my satisfaction..
|
|
|
|
|
