Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Help! When was The Unexpected Party?

Bracegirdle
Grey Havens


Jul 17 2014, 4:04pm

Post #1 of 15 (261 views)
Shortcut
Help! When was The Unexpected Party? Can't Post

Calculating the exact hour, day, month, and year of An Unexpected Party:
Karen Wynn Fonstad states in her Atlas of Middle-earth that it (arrival of the Dwarves) was on April 26, 2941.
Also Unfinished Tales, Quest of Erebor states the same date.

We know from The Tale of Years that the year was 2941.
But now using only the text from The Hobbit we find that the arrival of the thirteen Dwarves was at “tea time” (would this be about 4 pm?) on a Wednesday towards the end of April.

Then comes the interesting statement by Gandalf speaking to Thorin:

Quote
And Thrain, your father went away on the twenty-first of April, a hundred years ago last Thursday, and has never been seen by you since- (What a memory!)

Working forward from the 21st (a Thursday), to the following Wednesday is six days, making “The Party” begin on April 27th. To clarify- If April 21st was a Thursday, as Gandalf states, would not the next Wednesday (six days later) be the 27th?

Thus to my calculations An Unexpected Party begins on Wednesday at tea time (c. 4 pm), April 27th, 2941.

I know I must be wrong! But I don’t know why. Could Fonstad have taken her date from Unfinished Tales, and could Unfinished Tales be unfinished? Perhaps someone with more working brain cells than I could explain where my calculations have gone wrong? Thank you in advance!
A curious BG.

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!

(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Jul 17 2014, 4:05pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 17 2014, 4:49pm

Post #2 of 15 (172 views)
Shortcut
Gandalf misspoke! [In reply to] Can't Post

The truth is that Professor Tolkien had not yet devised the Shire Calendar at the time when he wrote The Hobbit, so Shire Reckoning does not match up with the day of the week given for Thrain's disappearance (April 21 always falls on a Friday in Shire Reckoning). In story-terms we have to assume that Gandalf simply made a mistake, perhaps he had trouble between converting the Dwarvish Calendar into Hobbit time-keeping. Gandalf showed up at Bag End on Tuesday, April 25. The party fell on Wednesday, April 26. And the company set out on Thursday, April 27. Thrain's disappearance one hundred years earlier could have been on either Thursday, April 20, or on Friday, April 21 (I would bet on the latter, with Gandalf getting the day of the week wrong).

Jackson's films do not match up with Tolkien's "The Tale of Years." The Professor wrote that Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday fell on September 22, 3001 (TA); and that the Unexpected Party was sixty years earlier, on April 26, 2941. However, Jackson sets Bilbo's birthday party in the year 3000, pushing the arrival of the Dwarves at Bag End back to 2940! There are many other discrepencies, but that is the one that is germane to this discussion.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bracegirdle
Grey Havens


Jul 17 2014, 7:52pm

Post #3 of 15 (142 views)
Shortcut
Thanks Otaku, that cleans it up [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I can see that is our only out. Apr. 21 always falls on a Friday, never on a Thursday on the S.R. calendar, which lines everything up perfectly.

It just burns my butt that my hero Gandalf could have made such a crude mistake. After all we’re only talking about his memory of 100 years in the past. Smile
I’m always trying to validate the published word (most especially H. & LotR. when Tolkien was alive to revise), but occasionally it just can’t be done reasonably.

Thanks again

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 17 2014, 9:05pm

Post #4 of 15 (136 views)
Shortcut
Perhaps... [In reply to] Can't Post

April 21, 2841 (TA) fell on a Thursday in the Dwarven Reckoning!

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bracegirdle
Grey Havens


Jul 18 2014, 3:13am

Post #5 of 15 (122 views)
Shortcut
Hoom-haroom, well now [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Gandalf was talking to Thorin perhaps he DID use some Dwarven Calendar Reckoning that Thorin was familiar with.

Hey! A possible point for Gandalf. Of course this means everyone else is wrong and the Dwarves DID arrive on April 27th. I'm befuddled!? CrazyUnsure

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 18 2014, 1:15pm

Post #6 of 15 (124 views)
Shortcut
As for the time of day? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say you are right that it's around 4pm. After the Dwarves began to arrive:


"[Bilbo went] to the pantry to fetch two beautiful round seed-cakes which he had baked that afternoon for his after-supper morsel"


He then...


"The poor little hobbit sat down in the hall and put his head in his hands, and wondered what had happened, and what was going to happen, and whether they would all stay to supper."


He didn't worry about lunch or a mid-day meal, so supper would indicate later in the day, too.


"this was the most awkward Wednesday he ever remembered"

And when they finished eating, the room became dim when Thorin & Gandalf blew smoke-rings, and the room became dark when they began playing their instruments. So that's another indication that it was later in the day when they all arrived. The question is... did "the Party" start when the Dwarves began arriving OR when the last of them arrived? ;)



6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - May 15, 2014



sample

"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


Bracegirdle
Grey Havens


Jul 18 2014, 6:23pm

Post #7 of 15 (94 views)
Shortcut
Tea time ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I had assumed from reading some of the text that it was around 4 pm; although I don’t know if the British of today have an “official” Tea Time? Anyone across The Water have an answer?
It seems, watching some of the British TV series that anytime someone has a visitor it’s “tea time”! Tongue

As to when a party really begins - that is a good question.

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 18 2014, 6:31pm

Post #8 of 15 (115 views)
Shortcut
I would imagine "tea time" varies geographically ... [In reply to] Can't Post

And also across time. When Tolkien sat down to write The Hobbit his tea time (afternoon tea, high tea, supper, dinner?) would likely have been a bit different to my tea time.

I sit down for tea anytime between 5pm and 7pm.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jul 18 2014, 6:31pm)


noWizardme
Grey Havens


Jul 20 2014, 4:37pm

Post #9 of 15 (68 views)
Shortcut
Maybe the Unexpected thing about it was that it was on the only Wednesday that was also a Thursday? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Bracegirdle
Grey Havens


Jul 20 2014, 7:20pm

Post #10 of 15 (60 views)
Shortcut
Bwahaha !!! I'm dying here...... And they called it "Twoday". [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


noWizardme
Grey Havens


Jul 20 2014, 8:24pm

Post #11 of 15 (58 views)
Shortcut
I think there are also other variants in what "tea" means in Britain. [In reply to] Can't Post

Invited to "tea", in England, you might get the heaviest meal of the day (though elsewhere that would be "dinner" by definition). Or it might be a cup of tea and a light meal such as sandwiches or pieces of cake. If it's a light meal, the serious business would either have been in the middle if the day (variously "lunch" or dinner), or it might come later ( tea mid afternoon, then a meal called dinner or supper later on).

As DanielLB says, timing might vary a lot: partly reflecting whether this is an interim snack & socialising, or whether it's a big meal.

Logic probably doesn't even come into it…Wink

Or not unless you unpick a lot of regional and socio-economic as well as linguistic and historical factors.

"Tea" could also be an earlier evening meal for the children of the house, allowing the grown ups a more civilised repast later on. That's how it was in my family when I was growing up in the 1960s. You would have your friends "round to tea" (meaning a play date at your house, and involving this kind of meal). I remember quickly discovering how much variation in the "tea" part of "going to a friends house for tea" there could be.

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Bracegirdle
Grey Havens


Jul 20 2014, 10:57pm

Post #12 of 15 (60 views)
Shortcut
Well, I do thank you noWizardme [In reply to] Can't Post

That's more about "tea" than I'd ever hoped to know. Smile

And now about those "crumpets"?

And I wonder if the British also have that blasted fruitcake that keeps getting passed around the family?
TongueTongue

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Ostadan
Rivendell

Jul 24 2014, 5:54pm

Post #13 of 15 (44 views)
Shortcut
Tea Time [In reply to] Can't Post

At the Mad Hatter's tea party, it is always six o'clock (because of a quarrel with Time), and so it is 'always tea-time'.


Bracegirdle
Grey Havens


Jul 24 2014, 7:59pm

Post #14 of 15 (26 views)
Shortcut
LOL - our poster Dormouse shoulda known this // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 25 2014, 10:24am

Post #15 of 15 (29 views)
Shortcut
Quarreled with TIME? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I never....! ;)



6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - May 15, 2014



sample

"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.