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Maciliel
Valinor
Jul 14 2014, 10:35pm
Post #1 of 14
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how do elves decide when they found houses?
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in the mortal world, some founds a house, and the children inherit it. in the elven world, founders can essentially live as long as arda lasts.
so, if finwe is high king, how are the masses divided so that feanor, fingolfin, finarfin, turgon, etc. all have retinues? how are houses "founded"?
aside from the house of imin (which no elf wanted to be part of), how do elves decide when someone warrants a "house"?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Glassary
Rivendell
Jul 14 2014, 10:54pm
Post #2 of 14
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Think it had been based on the desire of the elf to rule/be in charge.
I've always went under the idea that Artanis/Galadriel left Valinor for Middle
Earth to find a place of her own where she could be in charge.
Not sure if this is correct but I've always gone under this assumption.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jul 15 2014, 4:19pm
Post #3 of 14
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Will Legolas ever become king?
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If elves are essentially immortal, then the heirs to kings (or other lords) will never take over the "house." A good case is that of Thranduil. If he isn't killed in battle, then he will rule basically forever. so Legolas will never become king.
The First and Second Ages were rather dangerous for Elf lords and they died aplenty. But by the Third Age, it seems that Elvish kings were rather isolationist and didn't go to war as often as the previous two ages. At any rate, there weren't too many Elvish kings left In Middle Earth by the end of the Third Age anyway.
That wasn't the case in Valinor, however. Imagine being the heir to Ingwe's throne and waiting for him to kick the bucket.
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PhantomS
Rohan
Jul 15 2014, 5:04pm
Post #4 of 14
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When Finwe was High King, it wasn't so that Feanor would be High King after him and then Meadhros etc... when you are immortal you don't have to think you are going to inherit anything. A king may lay down his crown and leave his throne to his son, as the early Numenoreans did, but in the case of Elves this only happenned once with Finrod putting the kingship of Narogthond down and leaving Orodreth in charge.
The HIgh Elves who founded the Houses in Beleriand were all kindred , so one could argue that they were all branches of Finwe the High King's family rather than independent strands. Thingol never really declared himself as a house, although he was King of the Elves in Middle Earth and a king of the Teleri.
The sticky bit is in the case of Thranduil and Elrond- the former is a Sindarin Elf who established a rulership over silvan Elves by virtue of his higher bearing, while the latter is technically the heir of both Fingolfin and Thingol but only really rules Rivendell (although high level Noldor live in his house).
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Jul 15 2014, 5:21pm
Post #5 of 14
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...Thranduil was the only one, isn't he?
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jul 15 2014, 6:27pm
Post #6 of 14
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not just a suspended inheritance
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to add... not just a suspended inheritance....
since elves get re-embodied in aman, what happens when an existing king (e.g., thranduil) travels to aman and meets orodreth, his father? who is the king?
finwe gets re-embodied.... is he still king, or is the high king of the noldor finarfin, who never left aman, and who never died?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jul 15 2014, 6:45pm
Post #7 of 14
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i don't think it's about "charisma"
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i don't think it's about "charisma." in tolkien's writings, there's a steady thread of lords and monarchs, and this seems to reflect tolkien's "best practices" of order, at least for that time and for specific cultures (elves).
did charisma play a part in the election of the initial three elves to kingship (inwe, finwe, elwe, olwe)? partially because some of them were ambassadors to aman (which might have also been influenced by charisma)?
it is certainly arguably so... i would ad that i get a feeling of "manifest destiny" when it comes to tolkien's rulers. i.e., finwe was the "best" of the noldor, so he was fated to be high king.
if charisma (might) play a part in the initial selection, it does not seem to be as much of a factor in inheritance. crowns get passed to sons and brothers. no surprise candidates from out of nowhere.
regarding the transitions of the crown... you cite finrod (but i didn't get the sense that finrod put down his crown, only that he went on his errand and left orodreth in charge in his absence, and to be his heir if he did not return).
however, there is one clear example.... maedhros. maedhros was high king after feanor, but he set the crown aside for fingolfin.
re independent strands.... they may be all the family of finwe, but tolkien names multiple kings among them, and specifically states that they have their own houses. the mechanism for the establishment of those houses and their households is a puzzle.
re heirs... i would argue that galadriel is the heir of the noldorian monarchy in middle-earth.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jul 15 2014, 6:48pm
Post #8 of 14
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If you don't count Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn...
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Then Thranduil is the only Elvish king in Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age. There are no other major Elvish strongholds after Mirkwood. I guess the Silvan would be the last great Elvish population in ME (with the minor exception of Cirdan and the Elves of the Falas).
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jul 15 2014, 6:50pm
Post #9 of 14
(243 views)
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Maybe they didn't get the Memo...
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The Valar worked out the details of divorce for Elves if one spouse died and was reincarnated (in the case of Miriel and Finwe), but I guess they didn't get around to inheritance.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 15 2014, 7:26pm
Post #10 of 14
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I'm not sure I would say 'king'
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Will Legolas ever become king?
After the War of the Ring, Legolas did lead a group of Elves into Ithilien where the worked to heal the land. After the death of Aragorn, it is said that Legolas and Gimli together sailed to the Undying Lands.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 15 2014, 7:56pm
Post #11 of 14
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From The Return of the King, Appendix A(v):
As Queen of Elves and Men she [Arwen] dwelt with Aragorn for six-score years in great glory and bliss...
I wonder if that made Elessar King of the Elves, or just a Prince Consort? But then he is a king in his own right, though not necessarily King of the Elves. And he is a High King, which is even higher than a regular king, right?
Anyway, at least Arwen is a queen, which is a female king. And since she got to be queen of Men, it would only be fair if Elessar got to be King of the Elves.
And...what was the question again?
******************************************
"We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true."
-Robert Wilensky
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 15 2014, 10:46pm
Post #12 of 14
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Elves don't think about these things like we do.
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If immortality is normal and death in battle a major tragedy, it figures that Elves don't focus on the hereditary aspects of kingship the way we do. "King" is a position of great honor. To be the son or daughter of a king is to be worthy of respect, but you don't consider yourself a "king in waiting".
Notice that Tolkien doesn't use "Prince" as a designation for "son of the King" but more as a designation of royalty of a province or territory. This was also the usage in medieval and renaissance Europe.
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Jul 16 2014, 4:22am
Post #13 of 14
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I've been trying to puzzle this out myself
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I haven't spent a lot of time researching it yet, but I'm starting to wonder if some members of a house come from the wife's side of the family. I know this seems like a stretch.
The only "evidence" I can point to is Glorfindel. He's clearly a member of Turgon's house. His golden hair would imply that he's probably a Vanya (or at least half-Vanya). It doesn't seem like a stretch, then, that he's related to Elenwë, Turgon's wife, who was a Vanya. Perhaps he's her nephew?
I have always wondered where the random "house" members come from. If it's all based on family, then how is it that siblings (like Fëanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin) have their own houses? I mean, it seems at least somewhat likely that some of these houses came from the wife's family.
TolkienBlog.com
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jul 16 2014, 4:52pm
Post #14 of 14
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I agree with this point, but...
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Remember Feanor was upset when he (wrongly) thought that Fingolfin was trying to usurp his place and become heir to Finwe. He actually threatens Fingolfin's life over this.
In some ways, this might prove your point. The main reason that Feanor felt this way was because of the lies and duplicity of Melkor. If Melkor is removed from the equation, then maybe Feanor never suspects his brother of trying to usurp him (even though there is little love between the two) and the whole argument over succession never comes up. Nevertheless, Melkor's deceit would not have worked if Feanor was not prideful and haughty to his brother to begin with.
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