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boldog
Rohan
Jul 14 2014, 10:13am
Post #1 of 36
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Thranduil's change of heart
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This is probably one of the things im most looking forward to in the next film. Im really excited to see that scene where he decides to help the men of laketown.
But what got me thinking, is simply WHY does he change?
Basically the men of laketown are in the exact same situation as the Dwarves of Erebor were when smaug first came. Now seeing the dwarves so desperate, he still turned his back on them.
So there must be a reason for him not to do this to the men of Laketown. Could he perhaps regret turning his back onto the dwarves, and wishes not to betray innocence again? Or could it be because the men of laketown were good trade?
One thing I noticed is that when Thorin is telling him off for turning his back on the suffering of the dwarves, he really looks shocked and hurt. This got me thinking that maybe he knows it was wrong, and in his heart he regrets the choice. He is an Elf after all, so surely he isnt that stupid to know the difference between good and evil.
Or could it be out of love for his son and Tauriel, that he goes there to find them?
I dont know, but all I can say is that it will be a very powerful scene, to see his change of heart, knowing him to be a BIG isolationist
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
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Shagrat
Gondor
Jul 14 2014, 10:30am
Post #2 of 36
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Backing the men of Laketown and their dire need for reparations lends legitimacy to Thranduil's demand for a share in the treasure, which is otherwise extremely tenuous. You could easily see his apparent concern for the men of Laketown as furthering his own ends.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 14 2014, 11:01am
Post #3 of 36
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"But the king, when he had received the prayers of Bard, had pity, for he was the lord of a good and kindly people...."
That's all the reason he needs.
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Shagrat
Gondor
Jul 14 2014, 11:25am
Post #4 of 36
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Depends how PJ wants to play it though
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He might go for something that, up to this point, better aligns with Thranduil's characterization.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 14 2014, 11:35am
Post #5 of 36
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... of pity and self-interest, I think.
Indeed, Thranduil's look in the Thorin scene indicates that he is well aware that he might not have done as much for the Dwarves as he could have done.
But in the movie the self-interest is crucial as well, imho, and should be in there.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Jul 14 2014, 11:43am
Post #6 of 36
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And re the difference in his treatment of the Lake-men's plea vs the Dwarves, I'd think the circumstances are also different - where helping the Dwarves would entail sacrificing Elven lives which was too great an ask from his viewpoint given what went down before, helping Lake-town was really providing the muscle for relief work. Plus, the state of affairs with both races were different - Lake-town was an active trade-partner or least the conduit of supplies, but the Dwarves were a different story, what with the prior insulting keepaway of the White Gems in his face by Thror, I think consideration of solidarity and being the friendly neighbourhood Elf was a silly sentiment to Thranduil, simply because there's a lack of rapprochment with the Dwarves, which was the Dwarves' fault anyway.
As for his expression when Thorin was throwing his hissy fit and accusing him of not helping, I see it as a WTF-your-granddad-brought-it-down-on-you-how-dare--and-why-are-you-lay-it-on-me? Thranduil Elvenking regrets nothing where the Dwarves are concerned.  ..except maybe at the end of the Battle where that emotional scene happens.
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
 Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
 Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
 Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Jul 14 2014, 11:52am)
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 14 2014, 12:07pm
Post #7 of 36
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But are the Elves of DoS a good and kindly people?
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Maybe to everybody but Dwarves, whom they seem quite willing to kill. The Wood Elves of the movie remind me more of the fiery, elitist and wrongheaded Elves of the Silmarillion than those of LotR.
Cool as he is, hot as he is, IMO Thranduil has been quite a jerk so far. It will be interesting to see how he moves from being the "I'm all right, screw you" isolationist to the guy who, on his way to loot the Mountain, turns aside to help the Laketowners and will tarry long before he begins a war for gold.
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Jul 14 2014, 12:47pm
Post #8 of 36
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Good and kindly, but also less wise and more dangerous
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I do feel the DoS Mirkwood Elves exhibited both the "Good and kindly" + "less wise and more dangerous" aspects. It may not be overtly clear, and certainly the Elves of Mirkwood were not cuddly duddly but were they really truly so willing to kill Dwarves? If they did, why bother with the effort of saving the Dwarves at the same time they were wiping out the Spiders as these were attacking the Dwarves? They could have waited for the scuffle to end on its own and then clean up any survivors. And when the Dwarves escaped, why close the sluice gate if not to prevent escape? They could have just have a game of shoot-them-in-the-barrels and be done in a jiffy. Plus while pursuing the Dwarves in the Barrels, they took out orcs left and right but didn't harm any of the Dwarves. Too, the Dwarves were not manacled en-route to the Halls, nor were any torture implements of the week applied to Thorin or the Company in spite of his insolence. Thranduil granted him audience clad in finery and was willing to wait for him to cooperate instead of applying speedier means of cooperation. Contrast that with Thranduil wearing a sword when interrogating the orc and the summary conclusion to that session.
Frankly, if Thranduil is a jerk, it is merely reciprocating the Dwarves.
Cool as he is, hot as he is
&
It will be interesting to see how he moves from being the "I'm all right, screw you" isolationist to the guy who, on his way to loot the Mountain, turns aside to help the Laketowners and will tarry long before he begins a war for gold. At least we have accord here 
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Jul 14 2014, 12:54pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 14 2014, 1:15pm
Post #9 of 36
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Good and kindly? Yes, I think they are...
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They may have threated to kill the dwarves but they also went to some lengths to save them - I'm judging here by their deeds, not their words. And we already have a representative of the Mirkwood elves in the films in Legolas, who is good, isn't he, and loyal and kind.
When it comes to the dwarves, there's that long and troubled history there on both sides. I agree with you about the resemblance to the elves of the Silmarillion - but that immediately calls to mind the fall of Doriath and the killing of Thingol at the hands of the dwarves - and isn't Thranduil supposed to have come from Doriath? Thingol played a part in his own downfall, of course, there are no easy rights and wrongs, but as far as Thranduil in the film goes, so far we've only seen the isolationist who doesn't care much for dwarves and fears the danger of evil beyond his borders. We haven't seen his dealings with men.
The lord of a good and kindly people has been too special to me for too long - ain't no one going to take him away... 
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Jul 14 2014, 1:32pm
Post #10 of 36
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Great points re Silm! Would modup this if i could
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Oh... btw
The lord of a good and kindly people has been too special to me for too long - ain't no one going to take him away... *shameless plug* Come appreciate this magnificent lord on the Thranduil Appreciation threads
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Jul 14 2014, 1:33pm)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 14 2014, 1:58pm
Post #11 of 36
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"But the king, when he had received the prayers of Bard, had pity, for he was the lord of a good and kindly people...."
That's all the reason he needs.
It wasn't reason enough for him to help the dwarves, which is I think part of the question being asked. He helps the people of Laketown but he didn't help the dwarves.
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jul 14 2014, 3:27pm
Post #12 of 36
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Speaking from a movie perapective...
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Because this isn't a problem in the book, I'd say the answer lies in why he didn't help the dwarves in the first place. A while back (before DoS was released), I asked what Thranduil was even doing at Erebor with an army of elves at the time of Smaug's attack. I suggested that he wasn't there to help the dwarves, but rather was about to start his own attack to get those white gems he wanted. I think he doesn't help the dwarves against Smaug because 1) he thinks their attack is deserved, 2) he was going to attack them in the first place, & 3) he doesn't want to risk his people's lives against the dragon.
Now fast forward to film three, and the situation is completely different. He has a good trade relationship with the men of Laketown and the dragon is already dead. There's no reason for him not to help them.
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Cari
Bree
Jul 14 2014, 3:34pm
Post #13 of 36
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One of the main reasons that Thranduil didn't help the dwarves was because Smaug was still alive. Since Smaug isn't alive anymore and the men of Laketown have no city left that gives Thrandruil more incentive to help.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 14 2014, 4:14pm
Post #14 of 36
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"I spoke in the trouble of my heart."
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Seem to be a common trait of Elf Lords:
'Alas! ' said Celeborn. `We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.'
`He would be rash indeed that said that thing,' said Galadriel gravely. `Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose. But however it may be with the guide, the followers are blameless. Do not repent of your welcome to the Dwarf. If our folk had been exiled long and far from Lothlórien, who of the Galadhrim, even Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons?
'Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.' She looked upon Gimli, who sat glowering and sad, and she smiled. And the Dwarf, hearing the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and understanding. Wonder came into his face, and then he smiled in answer.
He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf-fashion, saying: `Yet more fair is the living land of Lórien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth! '
There was a silence. At length Celeborn spoke again. `I did not know that your plight was so evil,' he said. `Let Gimli forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need, but especially that one of the little folk who bears the burden.'
-The Mirror of Galadriel
******************************************
"We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true."
-Robert Wilensky
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 14 2014, 4:34pm
Post #15 of 36
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But - think "good and kindly" is open to debate on different levels
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And before I get with a slew of sharp elven arrows (which LOL according to my new WETA book are various kinds so hafta look for that in the films.... - I just LUV Lee Pace's Thranduil in these films - so I need to come up for air a but here (Squueeee - Thranduil!)
A few thoughts:
1) For me I would have said IN THE FILMS that at least initially, the elves aren't good and kindly, as much as not unkind, in the sense they don't just shoot the dwarves along with the spiders. But Legolas IMO is pretty *bleep* nasty, accusing a being he has no knowledge of, of being a "thief and a liar". Why? True enough, it's probably not likely any dwarf would be carrying a rare and ancient elven blade. But. Turns out he's just insulted a king - "less wise, and more dangerous..." If I were good and kindly, I might want to try talking to my prisoners later, out of curiousness if nothing else - but only Tauriel seems to be inclined that way. Also Legolas is willing to let Kili die - not unkind, exactly. But not kind either....
2) I've just begun reading bits and pieces from the evidently long and for me, surprisingly bloody conflicts between dwarves and elves. (Wow). So in the BOOKS, which I'm fuzzy on, on the one hand Tolkien seems to have not had a problem with elves being as savage as anyone else. But in the Hobbit BOOK, evidently (again) - well - how certain parties are painted has been a problem for me from way back, so that's another thread)
3) Re the OP - So much I think has to be interpolated, because re the FILMS there just isn't time for all the back stories. I've sniffed over Thranduil suddenly becoming a battle-ally of men, because on the one hand, Thranduil wants those gems. He also doesn't seem concerned, if Thorin had been willing to take his deal, over the dragon getting stirred up, possibly. While Thranduil seems to have been happy enough to trade with men, beyond that doesn't seem as though he falls over himself to look after them. He's outright nasty "stay here if you will, and rot"
And why did Thranduil have an army lined up around Erebor when the dragon came, anyway?
On the other hand, elves are unfathomable - or for me often will do nothing even when they could. This is where my head hurts - Thranduil is old, old. He must have seen many cycles of the "world rise and fall". As the film may depict things - I can fully understand, after the loss of his own father and people, Thranduil not wanting to battle for gold. But why would the destruction of Laketown touch him so deeply (evidently) . Guilt? So many things Thranduil could have done differently. Is this when he sees by doing nothing, and being isolationist, there is no safety? That while he walled himself in, "The One" has risen again, and will destroy all?
Or is it just that Thranduil does have a trading relationship with Laketown, and being confronted with starving children and burnt homes just angers him? Or is it still just convenient to throw in with men, in that Thranduil can finally get his gems back (paid for, or not....)
PS. I always enjoy Thranduil's shocked expression, mainly because in thousands of years, probably no being has spoken to the powerful and elegant Elven King in that manner, or held up a mirror and called him to account. I don't know that it's guilt, exactly. But I think there's the anger we might feel if we made a difficult choice at some point, and yet, there was NEVER a good choice to begin with, no matter what you did. "Do not talk to me of dragon fire, I know its wrath..." And there might be shame, because even if the elves didn't want to battle Smaug, Thorin makes it clear at some point Thranduil "turned his back" on his starving people - why? So does Thorin's reminding Thranduil of that, so recently, help Thranduil in NOT turning his back, this time?
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Retro315
Rivendell
Jul 14 2014, 5:24pm
Post #16 of 36
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This is a fascinating topic, and frankly one I'm eager to see explored. Thranduil in the second film is "pure Thranduil", he varies very little. He's the dark heart of the wood (or rather, the heart of the wood, darkened by the dark cancer of the wood down south). He takes a hard-line and it's his younger, more idealistic acolytes who drive the splinter-narrative. So obviously the involvement of his son and his huntswoman will factor in.
But thinking of the novel now, Thranduil goes through a few changes of heart, for a few different reasons next third of the story.
First: Rather than maintain an isolationist stance (which is a reaction to the orc attack of the film, and wasn't so hard-line in the book - he was a relative isolationist, and they certainly avoided the Mountain and withdrew as the forest darkened, but they still trade with the Lake-men, the farmers and winemakers southeast all the way down-river to Rhun, probably avoid the Iron Hills for political reasons, but maintain the Elven Road and possibly have dealings with Beorn and the Forest-men of the Wilderland Vale.
In the book it isn't much of a stretch to help his Lake-men allies. In the film, he's drawn an isolationist stance but still allies with them so coming to their aid isn't much of a stretch.
Second: He accompanies them - hell, bolsters, supports and provides most of the muscle - for their march on Erebor. This change stems from pragmatism - the dragon is dead. Indeed, much of his decision to reopen his doors in the films, and ride out, will stem from "Hey, the dragon's dead - and according to Legolas and Tauriel, we REALLY ought to help out this Bard guy who did the deed." The dragon's death is a HUGE impetus for a more proactive stance, because it indicates a sea change in the balance of power in the north. Thranduil might not understand just how deep the political power swing goes in setting back Sauron, but he'll sense something. He'll intuit a lot of it.
Third: He changes his mind and acquiesces to union with Dain Ironfoot and the Iron Hill Dwarves. Gandalf is notorious for changing minds by pointing out that these movers and shakers have no other options ... but let's face it, it simply must be Bilbo's actions that spark this total and complete mind-change. He should be pretty steadfast in negotiations, unyielding like an oak tree, until Bilbo shows him what real pragmatism and common sense looks like. I don't just want an Elrondian raised eyebrow to indicate this shift in awareness and building change to his persona - I want a look of awe, fully taken aback as this little Hobbit reveals that he burgled the Arkenstone of Thrain and will voluntarily give his 1/14 share to Bard and the Lake-men, using the Stone as collateral.
One last thing - while it's not as important as Bilbo's last visit to a dying Thorin, and we can imagine Thranduil will pragmatically be overseeing the hunting down and slaughtering of any orc-stragglers after the battle - it'd be kind of nice to see Thranduil pay the dying Thorin a visit as well - a brief one. Few words minced, since they don't really like one another - but a token of respect BEFORE he dies in addition to the massive token of respect afterward (laying Orcrist in his tomb.)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2014, 6:23pm
Post #17 of 36
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Of the destruction wrought by Smaug, there is no reason for them to "speak to {him} of dragon fire. {he} know{s} its wrath and ruin. {He has} faced the great serpents of the north. {He} warned {Thorin's} grandfather what his greed for gold would bring. He did not listen"
And also "He had seen dragon fire in the sky... And he never forgave... and he never forgot"
It is not something you can forget. I think it will be from a sense of pity and his own loss.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 14 2014, 8:53pm
Post #18 of 36
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Tolkien describes the Elves as “good” but IMO they don't always act that way in the stories.
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So far the deeds of the Wood Elves have been to capture, threaten and imprison a party of Dwarves they knew nothing about until they recognized Thorin. What would Legolas have done if the Dwarves had resisted capture, him with his arrow pointed at Thorin? But even if the Elves would not have killed the Dwarves, they seem ready to imprison them indefinitely. Thranduil is prepared to let Thorin rot unless he gets what he wants, the white gems.
I like the Elves, all Elves, just fine but am not especially enamored of them. Nor am I enamored of the Elven King. I think in both the book but particularly in the movie that Thranduil really is something of a jerk. He’s interesting, he’s beautiful, he has noble qualities and he’s not unsympathetic but he behaves badly. So does Thorin (as usual) but for once he has cause.
But who am I to argue with women in love? We all have our things.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 14 2014, 10:12pm
Post #19 of 36
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Jackson is exaggerating the ill-will between Dwarves and Elves...
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...because he likes more conflict in the movies. In the book, the Dwarves were apprehended intruding on an Elven feast. In the circumstances, any unknown presence like that would seem suspicious. The failure of Thranduil to assist the Dwarves at Erebor was all a movie fabrication.
In general, though, Elves are good. There have been several spectacularly bad ones, though.
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Glassary
Rivendell
Jul 14 2014, 10:19pm
Post #20 of 36
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Believe it's not for gold or glory, not any of the obvious reasons.
I think it's for the wine.
Thanduil loves his wine as evidenced from his cellar and comments
made by Elros (in the film version).
All the wine and many other supplies are brought from trade with
Laketown via Bard.
Think it's as simple as Thranduil keeping his cellars stocked.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 15 2014, 1:50am
Post #21 of 36
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That would be a bummer, especially with winter coming on, and bad roads and all. No more excellent wine shipments until spring.....
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 15 2014, 2:20am
Post #23 of 36
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it'd be kind of nice to see Thranduil pay the dying Thorin a visit as well - a brief one. Few words minced, since they don't really like one another - but a token of respect BEFORE he dies in addition to the massive token of respect afterward (laying Orcrist in his tomb.) And speaking as one who adores Thorin - book favorite, and especially the film. I can see what you are saying. But, if we can say we "know" Thorin at this point, and he knows he's dying, would he care re Thranduil? There's not much time left for him, and all that stuff about the respect of your enemies - for Thorin himself, at a time like that, I don't know it would matter. It's Bilbo, it seems, this little hobbit who changed Thorin's world, really, that Thorin thinks of, at the end.
Tho I think for Thranduil, to respect Thorin, who must be something of a child to Thranduil (as men must be), is enormous. Because Thranduil has seen so much of the ages of the world.
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Jul 15 2014, 2:21am
Post #24 of 36
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I would not be surprised if Tolkien drew inspiration for the wood-elves' love of wine from a particularly prevalent stereotype that existed in the ancient Mediterranean mindset of early Greek traders and later Roman conquerors: the picture of the wine-crazed Celts of the Rhone Valley.
While it wasn't the only trade good being exchanged between the peoples of the Mediterranean and their northern neighbors, wine was certainly one of the most prevalent if archaeological and literary evidence is any indication. Very early (6th-5th century BC) burials of Celtic chieftains almost always contained drinking paraphernalia acquired from the southerners. Google the Vix Krater for one of the more spectacular examples of these. Someone once estimated that it could have held enough wine to supply a party of nearly one thousand revelers.
Legend had it that the Gauls became so addicted to imported wine (which they drank unmixed) that chieftains would trade a slave for a single amphora of Greek wine. Of course, ancient writers had many other unbelievable things to say about peoples living beyond the borders of the "civilized" world, but the sheer number of amphorae containing wine residue found in Gaul and other Celtic regions seems to back this up.
While I'm not saying for sure that Tolkien meant to equate the wood-elves with the Celts and the men of Laketown with Mediterranean traders linking them to the "civilized world" (the world of Men), I do think that the fact that wine was the primary good being traded between the wood-elves and men was inspired, at least in part, by the ancient stereotype. When the Romans began military incursions into Gaul and over the Rhine into Germania, they recorded similar accounts.
Sorry to diverge so much from the topic at hand, but I couldn't resist a chance to postulate one of Tolkien's potential influences!
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
(This post was edited by Aitieuriskon on Jul 15 2014, 2:23am)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Jul 15 2014, 9:37am
Post #25 of 36
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Presumptions based on past experience
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Can't blame them, even if they're just going by their version of the story. But great point, Darkstone.
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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