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LordGawain
Rivendell
Jul 13 2014, 9:47pm
Post #26 of 48
(3659 views)
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This is a direction I would like to see, as it makes sense to the characters of Legolas (both hobbit and LotR version), Tauriel and Bilbo, and it would be an unpredictable outcome that would sidestep the awkward romance.
But I fear the filmmakers (and with that I probably mean the studio more than the writing team) will go the more cliché route. :S
Half a league, half a league, half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death, rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade! Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred.
Theirs not to make reply, theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred.
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glor
Rohan
Jul 13 2014, 9:54pm
Post #27 of 48
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It is possible that the last film in the trilogy will have multiple endings and....
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..an epilogue.
60 years later.....
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shadowdog
Rohan
Jul 13 2014, 10:14pm
Post #28 of 48
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Not all elves can take the ship into the west.
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Help somebody. Which elves can go and which can't?
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imin
Valinor
Jul 13 2014, 10:14pm
Post #29 of 48
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they just forget to edit her scenes into the film so its like she was just a crazy dream from DOS!
All posts are to be taken as my opinion.
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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Jul 13 2014, 10:18pm
Post #30 of 48
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I had a feeling that not all elves could go though I haven't really read all The Silmarillion I know the gist of it. I didn't want to make wild assumptions lol
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bruinen
Bree
Jul 13 2014, 11:43pm
Post #31 of 48
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...Could certainly go the way you point out... Studios also like twisty endings, though.
I'll be at comic con this year (though no idea if I can get into hall h on sat. AM...) so I'll keep an ear in case anyone slips up... . I expect we all have to wait til December, however.
My Avatar: the desk Tolkien used when he wrote The Hobbit...now on display at Wheaton College.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 14 2014, 1:24am
Post #33 of 48
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See the discussion lower in this thread.//
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2014, 2:47am
Post #34 of 48
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Agreed, have had a pet theory similar to your idea, with some variation
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In the first month of my first joining TORn, I posted on this Hobbit movie message board about my pet theory about Tauriel, somewhat similar to what you're proposing. The details evolved, but the essential idea went something like this:
During the Dwarves' captivity in Mirkwood, Tauriel impresses Bilbo with her merciful, humane way of dealing with the Dwarf captives. (Instead, in DOS we don't really see Bilbo paying much mind to Tauriel at all during the scenes in Thranduil's realm. However, in DOS we do see Tauriel going out of her way to help the Dwarves, but it doesn't happen until Lake Town and Bilbo doesn't witness it.)
Later, during the events of "Thief in the Night", he purposely goes to Tauriel with the Arkenstone, as a gesture of his feelings of admiration and trust toward her. My original take on it was that Bilbo would give the Arkenstone directly to Tauriel, for her to deliver to Thranduil/Bard. Eventually my idea evolved --instead he would surrender himself to Tauriel, so that she would bring him before Thranduil and Bard, so he could deliver the stone directly.
(Basically same as your idea except that not only does Tauriel discover Bilbo, but also she does so because he planned it that way, as a gesture of appreciation for the kindness she showed his friends.)
And from there they become friends and allies, etc. as you proposed. And possibly protects him during BoFA, perhaps dying in the attempt, as with your post.
A friendship between them seems unlikely now in light of the Tauriel-Kili developments in DOS, but maybe there's still a chance. I would hope so.
Things overheard during games of chess in Middle-earth:
Galadriel (any and every time she advances her pawn to the last row): "In its place you would have a QUEEN!!!!" (thunder booms)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 14 2014, 6:10am
Post #35 of 48
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I always assumed the Avari could.
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Or at least they can go to the Lonely Isle. All Elves can go to Valinor, and almost all of them do eventually; but it is also down to whether they want to. After the War of Wrath, the bane over the Noldor was nulled and the Valar decided to permit all the Elves to be able to go back to Valinor (either to Tol Eressea and/or to Aman) and even those who stayed in Middle-earth during the Third and Fourth Ages (Galadriel, Celeborn etc).
I'm not sure I like the idea of Valinor (or Tauriel going to Valinor) being introduced in The Hobbit though. I think it diminishes its importance when Frodo sails away. Tauriel being heartbroken or wounded doesn't quite live up to the sadness of why Frodo must depart or why the last of the Elves must depart Middle-earth. She should either die or her story left open.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 14 2014, 7:11am
Post #37 of 48
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I really don't think the Avari had any chance.
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Tolkien wrote, "After the Downfall of Númenor, and its destruction, all this was removed from the ’physical’ world, and not reachable by material means. Only the Eldar (or High-Elves) could still sail thither, forsaking time and mortality, but never returning."(Letter 151)
However, he did, as we know, let Legolas go -- whether as a reward for being in the Fellowship, because he was a Sindarin (which sort of counts as a High Elf), or by what dispensation, we don't know. So it's a bit cloudy in some places, but I know of no argument that would admit the Avari.
I totally agree, though, that introducing the whole concept of Elves departing ME (or not) doesn't belong in The Hobbit.
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 14 2014, 12:25pm
Post #38 of 48
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If the writers decide that any Elf can take ship from the Havens, that is how it will be in the movie. They’ve barely touched on the different types of Elves except as a class barrier between Legolas and Tauriel.
Remember the “Wood Elves” Frodo and Sam saw heading for the Havens in the FotR EE? A minor error but certainly not canon.
However, I completely agree that there is no reason to introduce the concept in TBOTFA and am not expecting or advocating that Tauriel sail west.
I very much like Tauriel as a character but have no expectations or wishes about her fate. What will be, will be.
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burgahobbit
Rohan
Jul 14 2014, 2:35pm
Post #39 of 48
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"She walks in starlight in another world."
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Okay wow! Lissuin I think you may be on to something. And Noria you are also correct. If PJ, Fran, and Phillipa want Tauriel to go to Valinor, then to Valinor she will go.
And this is why it might be a tempting choice for them. The Hobbit seems to have subplots and literary devices which are very similar to LOTR, and in the movies they have created even more similarities. Thorin and Aragorn are exiled kings on a quest. Bard and Aragorn are exiled Kings who return to their thrones. Denethor and the Master of Laketown are lesser corrupt rulers who are subject to the true kings but do not want to be. Those are just a couple of the most obvious connections. Now they are similar stories but there are major differences, and I think this excites PJ and crew. Especially in the movies, it is emphasized that Thorin is an exiled king just like Aragorn. "The dwarf runt will never be king!" - concerning Thorin "This exile...will never be crowned king!" - concerning Aragorn. And I think the exciting thing for PJ is to show that in the end, Thorin's story is actually very different. He dies; Aragorn lives. He fails; Aragorn overcomes his weaknesses.
In the movies, the most obvious new connection between the trilogies (besides the growing power of Sauron and the ring) is the Kili/Tauriel, interracial romance which corresponds to the Aragorn/Arwen romance. In both romances, the male tells the female elf, that "It was just a dream" or "a dream Arwen, nothing more." But Aragorn, again, is successful, and he is reunited with Arwen, and their dream is turned into reality. In the Hobbit, we already know that Kili will die, and thus, that his love for Tauriel and desire to be with her really was only a dream. Again, it is a similar plot with a twist at the end. Both cases make the stories in the LOTR more meaningful. Once you have seen the sorrow of failure and defeat, the joy of victory is even greater and brighter. Thus, The Hobbit sets up LOTR to give it more meaning (or at least it tries, and I think succeeds in some areas).
But they could take it one step further! Arwen and Aragorn struggled with the fact that the elves were leaving for Valinor, and that despite their love, Lord Elrond believed that Arwen should do the same. In TH, Tauriel has a love for light, especially starlight, and she has "seen the white light of forever fill the air" and Kili proclaims her to "walk in starlight in another world." To me, this could indicate Valinor. It really isn't another world, and the realm of death may be a stronger candidate if you are to take into account the "starlight" aspect of this other world (you know, the whole Lion King thing. When people die they become stars. But you know what I mean, walking in starlight sounds like some sort of afterlife.) But rather than afterlife, it could also indicate Valinor as it is a place full of light and beauty, and in a way Valinor is like another world outside of middle-earth. The only reason that it would make sense for her to leave middle-earth, and thus introduce a new plot very quickly at the end of the film, would be to give Arwen's decision more meaning in the next trilogy, and to again have a similar plot with a reverse outcome. Tauriel leaves, Arwen stays.
I also think it would be a wonderful conclusion for Tauriel, albeit sad. Thranduil denies her Legolas, and Kili is taken from her through death. There is nothing for her in middle-earth anymore, and she is overcome by grief. Just look at her face after Thanduil crushes her dreams. It says, "This world is not for me." She does her best to fight evil and drive it from the world, but in the end it isn't for her own self. She must venture west. Also, she needs to give the rune stone back to Kili's mother, Dis. This is vital to the story unless she dies. So she must venture West anyway if she is to find Dis in the blue mountains. Then, when her final mission is complete, and she sees the sea for the first time, she must leave. How will they have time for this? Simple. She journeys West with Bilbo and Gandalf. Then it is a matter of two simple scenes to wrap up her story. 1. Give stone to Dis. 2. Sail West to Valinor.
"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2014, 6:12pm
Post #40 of 48
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Ah....Reading his posts make me sad I never crossed virtual paths with Reverend...
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He is so articulate and insightful. *sigh*
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2014, 6:16pm
Post #41 of 48
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I never thought that Tolkien could leave any of his Elves stranded from 'home' as it were, even if they are not eligible to enter Valinor proper. I think it is unthinkably sad (Pun alert!) to think (D'oh!) of such beautiful creatures fated to fade away into nothingness and mediocrity.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Lissuin
Valinor
Jul 14 2014, 7:41pm
Post #42 of 48
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all that, of course, is exactly what I meant to say. 
Well done. Many good points about similarities. I seldom indulge in idle speculation, especially when talking about PJ's upcoming films, but Tauriel intrigues me and, seriously, why not? As you lay it out here, it is certainly plausible. "Subplots." "Devices". Connections between LOTH and TH. "She walks in starlight in another world" across the Sea sounds very like Fran and Philippa's contribution.
EL has said in interviews that there was agreement originally that there would be no love triangle for her character. When she came back for pickups, whoops! - longing looks and jealous glances. I still maintain it's a one-sided crush on Kili's part. But, heh! Call it another twist on the Aragorn/Arwen story: theirs was a mutual love, but Kili's is unrequited, and he dies.
But I can imagine all of what you plan for Tauriel happening in exposition rather than long scenes. No need to add her to Bilbo's homeward journey. Or perhaps she does go part way, but leaves them at Rivendell (where she has gone hoping Elrond can help her with the morgul blade thing - another LOTR connection! Maybe I'm not too bad at this speculating, eh?).
If this Grey Havens/Valinor plot point does appear, we may have a subject which could replace "Do Balrogs have wings?" for our fandom: "Can the Avari return?"
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 15 2014, 12:30am
Post #43 of 48
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the Avari never left Cuvienen. That's why they were called Avari, or Unwilling 
She is Teleri, and descended from the group that stopped in the Anduin valley because they were too afraid to cross the Misty Mountains. So I would think she DOES have the right to sail, just like the other Teleri who settled in Beleriand
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shadowdog
Rohan
Jul 15 2014, 6:33pm
Post #44 of 48
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in Fellowship were high elves. The term just referred to the fact that they lived in woods. They are not the same as the elves in the Hobbit.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jul 15 2014, 6:49pm
Post #45 of 48
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I think Frodo was just trying to impress Sam with his knowledge of elves, but it turns out he mistook High Elves for Wood Elves. Of course Sam didn't know any better.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 15 2014, 8:11pm
Post #46 of 48
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Using the term "High Elves" might have led the audience to make an erroneous assumption as to the reason for their bright glow and slow-motion walk.
"Wood Elves" may have been judged a less confusing term.
Of course "High Wood Elves" would have been right out.
******************************************
"We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true."
-Robert Wilensky
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Jul 15 2014, 8:49pm
Post #47 of 48
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It's interesting what the filmmakers decided to to do to that part of the book. I frequently forget all about Gildor until I begin re-reading the Lord of the Rings, yet he and his band of Noldorin play a fairly significant role in Fellowship.
In the book, we have Frodo and Sam sheltered by a company of Eldar returning to Rivendell from the Tower Hills.
In the film, we have Frodo and Sam witness a procession of wood-elves bound for the Grey Havens: a complete inversion of the book's scenario. I wonder if the change from "High Elves" to "Wood Elves" in the film was deliberate on the part of the writers, and if so, what its significance is...
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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