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New Line Cinema Sued by Tolkein Estate (over film profits...)
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Magpie
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 8:57pm

Post #276 of 342 (13436 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I think fans can be broken into different groups however:

Those who tend to focus on the films
Those who only post jokes.
Those who post questions about the books once in a while.
Those who write & go on & on about deep theories on Middle-earth.
Those who play live action fantasy games.
Those who go to conventions.
Those who have built freindships through any or all of the above.


perhaps, but who's going to decide which group any particular person belongs to. Who has that right? I don't think there's one person on this board who could correctly place me into any group even though I've been an active member for a 2-3 years. No one here knows enough about me. My life and my relationship with Tolkien is way more complex than more than a few people in my life could understand. What you see of me here is only one facet of my relationship. What you see of me *now* is only one facet of my relationship.

The people I respect (and this holds true across the board in life in a way broader application than just for 'Tolkien') don't place me in categories or apply labels because they understand this. The people who do place me into categories, apply labels, and then tell me what those categories and labels mean or what value they hold never know me well enough.

People can judge me all they want. But if they don't know me well enough to do so then all it gets them is benign avoidance on my part. I don't feel any need at all to justify or explain myself so as to avoid a label or category applied by someone who has not taken the time to get to know me.



Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Feb 16 2008, 9:48pm

Post #277 of 342 (13430 views)
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It becomes even more ridiculous [In reply to] Can't Post

when we look back at where we were from where we are now.
How many of us have shifted categories over the long years?
We change and evolve as fans and as TORnados just as we do in Real Life.
I reserve the right to be whoever I want...whenever I want.
How can somebody else properly label me, when *I* don't know how to label me from day to day? =)


Annael
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 11:41pm

Post #278 of 342 (13439 views)
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oh, there's a lot more categories than that [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I think fans can be broken into different groups however:

Those who tend to focus on the films
Those who only post jokes.
Those who post questions about the books once in a while.
Those who write & go on & on about deep theories on Middle-earth.
Those who play live action fantasy games.
Those who go to conventions.
Those who have built freindships through any or all of the above.



you left out the Leggy-lovers, for one - those whose fandom pretty much centers around Orlando Bloom. They outnumbered everyone else here for a brief while in 2002.

Some other categories I can think of that I know are represented here:

- those who found the strength to endure some personal trial through Frodo's example
- those who focus on the religious overtones of the story
- those who like to study Tolkien's mythic/linguistic roots (see Beowulf discussion)
- those inspired by the story to write fan fiction, draw scenes/characters, build a hobbit house, create a garden, compose music, create costumes, make a video, etc.(see Fan Art)
- those who collect Tolkien-related items
- and let us not forget: those who are obsessed with Tom Bombadil Wink

What I don't get is, why does it matter? What is the point of trying to label people as this or that?


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 17 2008, 2:11am

Post #279 of 342 (13408 views)
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Thimpson [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, Brigand, I was going to answer that, but decided not to.

And that's b/c it seems to me that that there are an awful lot of people on the site who haven't read her book. I thought more people had by now, since we have been linking to her blog for months.
I am, in fact, shocked that in general, so few people know of the book. You go into a bookstore, and they don't carry it, you have to order it. This is strange, b/c it seems every other "tie-in" LOTR product is all over the shelves, still.

But this isn't a "tie-in" book. It's a true scholarly tome, a densely-printed 399 -pg hardcover. For me, quite surprising, and I'm both sad and puzzled as to there arent' more like it. Kristen Thompson is a film scholar, and her writing shows it. "The Frodo Franchise' is a unique work, as it examines every aspect of the films, artistically, historically, and culturally--and by "culture" i mean both in terms of actual history, film history, and impact on popular culture. There are whole chapters on New LIne, on the films themselves, on role and impact of the Internet (and yes, TORN gets a lot of time), on New Zealand, etc etc. The part "Building the Franchise" is fascinating, both in terms of reliving the best (or worst?) or LOTR PJ-mania, and an examination of a how modern film franchises are built, and how this one was difficult. Lots of pictures, includes muli-page color spread in the middle. And yes, she begins of course with The Professor himself....

Not to toot her horn too much, (well actually yes) this is one of those rare times where I really hype a boook, esp of this sort....it should be required reading for all fans, of the films at least, but I think the purists would find it fascinating too, as a study of the Industry...


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 2:36am

Post #280 of 342 (13447 views)
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PMART Direct quote [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This part makes it seem likely,
" “I would rather not discuss the films.” She did not find the Black Riders remotely frightening in the film."

I wish there was an exact quote of course but this is really an excellent report. Thanks for sharing it!


Another report of the Moot gives a direct quote:

Q: "Did you find the Black Riders in the movie frghtening?"

A: "Oh, God, no!"

I think I understand why. The BR are scary precisely because they're vague, uncertain, unknown. PJ's version were much too corporeal: he tried to make them warriors rather than spectres of fear.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 17 2008, 2:48am

Post #281 of 342 (13426 views)
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"Warriors rather than spectres" [In reply to] Can't Post

There were some good comments on the effectiveness of the Black Riders in the films in this installment of a 13-part discussion of Letter #210 that Entwife Wandlimb led in 2004.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 3:31am

Post #282 of 342 (13436 views)
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Many Catagories Left Out... [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish I could 'cut & paste' on my wife's laptop (the main computer's broke).....

But, I can't figure out how (I'm a computer moron).

Suffice to say, I left out many 'catagories' of Tolkien fans' of course. I didn't even touch on reading the books:

Those who've only read The Hobbit & TLOR once (like PJ - sorry, couldn't resist) Sly
Those who've read all 5 main books once or twice & never read The Appendices
Those who've read the 'main 5' a number of times
Those who've read the main 5 plus Unfinished Tales, The Children of Hurin & tried the other writtings - The Letters & HoME
Those who read everything Middle-earth over & over

Does any of this make anyone any better?
Certainly not, just who you are & not a 'NARF' either.
However, if you've only read The Hobbit & TLOR's once or twice, you're not going to be able to engage in a debate on whether Morgoth had more innate power at the end of the First Age than Sauron had in the Second Age - the answer is Sauron, by the way. Tolkien says so in 'Myths Transformed' in 'HoME Volume 11, 'The War of the Jewels' - Believe it or not!
So, you're level of commitment will impact your level of interaction, so to speak.......

BTW, As one who has suffered some HUGE personal trials, Annael, I cannot imagine the example of Frodo or any fictional character giving me inspiration.
Heck, Jesus Christ himself hardly gave me inspiration through 18 years of chronic pain (among others things). Sometimes one must just hold on for dear life without inspiration......
Laying in bed for a year with an infection that almost cost me my leg, Frodo was the last thing on my mind unless I was watching the movies. Frown


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 17 2008, 3:35am

Post #283 of 342 (13407 views)
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"War of the Jewels" or "Morgoth's Ring"? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 3:45am

Post #284 of 342 (13441 views)
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Dammit! [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right!

I put 'Morgoth's Ring' & then erased it....

Either way, it's a very interesting read, no?

A few essays later, in 'The Origin of Orcs' (whatever the title is) it states that Sauron is more powerful than Balrogs. Shocked

That Morgoth recruited different spirits.....

'Some greater, like Sauron, some lesser like Balrogs'

I know some folks won't like that one.......

Considering their Balrog obsession. Wink


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 4:09am

Post #285 of 342 (13414 views)
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They're not trying to hit Zaentz [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As you said, Zaentz sued NL a few yrs ago, for breach of contract. He was screwed over by NL just as much as the Estate was. And he was just as unsuccessful as the Estate at getting their just due.

Surely CT and the Estate can see that? Zaentz just didn't leave them out to dry. He isn't on the same low level as NL Far from it. He *fought* NL! So WHY would the Estate want to make an enemy out of Zaentz, by lumping him alongside NL in the suit? Zeantz is their ally, not their enemy.

Note that the part of the complaint which asks for NLC's rights to be revoked expressly provides for not prejudicing the rights of innocent parties- by which I'm sure is meant Zaentz inter alia.

However, ironically CT's biggest ally may prove to be Peter Jackson- because Wingnut's books could be used to demonstrate how far off the mark NLC's claimed production costs are.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 17 2008, 4:17am

Post #286 of 342 (13402 views)
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There's always "overhead" [In reply to] Can't Post

and "management charges". Peter's costs of production are only one part of the total costs to make the movies. New Line was responsible for all the advertising, in addition to the costs to make and distribute the prints, and those type of expenses are factored into the costs to make a movie. Many of New Line's additional costs are totally legitimate, but some are certainly bogus.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 4:29am

Post #287 of 342 (13392 views)
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Yes, but. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and "management charges". Peter's costs of production are only one part of the total costs to make the movies. New Line was responsible for all the advertising, in addition to the costs to make and distribute the prints, and those type of expenses are factored into the costs to make a movie. Many of New Line's additional costs are totally legitimate, but some are certainly bogus.


Insofar as I can get a view of the contracts from the complaint, by 'production cost' what is meant is almost certainly 'negative cost'- moneys spent to produce the master print. The costs after that point like marketing, advertising, distribution etc. are not counted. Every waiter in LA understands the difference between production and distribution. And PJ's and Zaentz' and Miramax' gross participation absolutely may not be counted as deducts from gross, as New Line has claimed.

This is an odd contract, because while it's based on gross points, not net points (or 'monkey points' as Eddie Murphy called them), it then establishes an artificial payment threshhold of 2.6x production costs. Which to me suggests that Sassoon (JRRT's agents) were making a net deal but working around Hollywood Accounting by saying "your ads and marketing etc etc etc are predefined at 1.6x the cost of putting it on film: we're not going to let you define subsequent costs."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 17 2008, 4:40am

Post #288 of 342 (13387 views)
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Ah, well, what can I tell you [In reply to] Can't Post

You know the purist and book fan in me rumbled loudly the mometn I realize that nearly all of Gandalf's most impressive displays of Wizardry had been deleted to fit Peter's tastes, marring his image and diminishing his status among millions of new LOTR fans world wide. My displeasure burst into new flame when Glorfindel got not even a brief dialogue line at the council, and burned anew when Gandalf Beat up Denethor. . . and shadowfax kicked him into the fire. I also would have liked more than a goatee on Gandalf The White. . . and I HATED the extended scene with the Witch King. . .

But I did like the props and most of the scripts.

I loved most of the films content. . . but there were things that left me severely dissapointed, and things which I hated. What bothers me most, no doubt, is that unlike huge changes such as Bombadil or Elf addition at Helm's deep, which I was okay with, the ommissions and alterations that most bothered me were things that could easily have been managed. Small things, in terms of the time they would take up, but potent things just the same.

As to the suits. . . part of this is hope talking, as more than anything I want these films to stay on track for 2010. I fall ever more into the camp that feels this is indeed about the money. Tolkien's estate knew ages ago that they had not received accurate pay, and they could have swooped down to sieze further film rights even before the last extended edition film came out, or at the least when the earliest rumours of The Hobbit began to stir. They chose now, likely mere days if not hours before The Hobbit machine was about to kick into full operation, because they knew it would be the best and last time to squeeze for the most money. If the seize the rights, everything else becomes mute. Even if ordered to pay, the companies will hold out on the cash for years, with New Line almost certainly declaring bankruptcy, and Time Warner finagling to try and avoid responsibility. TE has its best shot for getting any money while Time Warner through new line still holds the rights and is willing to go the distance to keep them.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


squire
Half-elven


Feb 17 2008, 5:05am

Post #289 of 342 (13446 views)
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What are the "Main 5" Tolkien books? [In reply to] Can't Post

"Those who've read the main 5 plus Unfinished Tales, The Children of Hurin & tried the other writtings - The Letters & HoME"
"Those who read everything Middle-earth over & over"


These last two categories of Tolkien fans who 'read the books' as you put it, are not very exactly defined; nor do they capture the "ultimate" nature of Real Fans.

"Real Fans" do not simply "try" the "other writings" while (as you seem to imply) regarding The Children of Hurin as a core Tolkien book. I would suggest additional categories, all of whom I've encountered in the plural on TORn in the past few years I've been here:
  • Those who've read all of Tolkien's published fictional works, and all the posthumous collections edited by Christopher Tolkien or others. This goes beyond "everything Middle-earth" and includes Farmer Giles of Ham, Smith of Wootton Major, Roverandom, Mr Bliss, and Letters from Father Christmas, to name a few non-Middle-earth works of his.
  • Those who've read the five main works of the Big 2 of Tolkien's critics, Tom Shippey and Verlyn Flieger.
  • Those who've read extensively among Tolkien's critics and commentators, not just the books but the scholarly articles and compendia.
  • Those who've read Tolkien's linguistic writings - starting of course with the material in the LotR Appendices and the HoME volumes, but also including the episodically released works from the journals Parma Eldalamberon and Vinyar Tengwar.
  • Those who study Old English and related medieval scholarly subjects, and read Tolkien's non-fictional scholarly works, seeking to connect his fiction to the worlds and languages of the past that he loved and tried to recreate and update in his fiction.
  • Those who read extensively in the romantic fantasy and adventure fiction of the last two centuries, seeking to connect Tolkien to his own literary time and place.
  • Those who read and research the lives, times, and letters of Tolkien and his colleagues, rivals, and friends, seeking to connect Tolkien to a social and academic milieu rather than regarding him as a solitary genius scribbling away in an attic.
  • Those who research and write scholarly papers and books on their thoughts and discoveries in the above areas.

As I said, all these people can be found on TORn -- if not everyday, then from time to time, in person or by reference. They are really interesting to learn from. It's one of the reasons I still hang out on TORn after all these years, having read the "big 5" (what are they, exactly) countless times.

But wait! Are these people really "fans"? one might ask.

We have asked. They always answer, "yes".




squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 5:42am

Post #290 of 342 (13394 views)
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I'm surprised they put up with it this long [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I fall ever more into the camp that feels this is indeed about the money. Tolkien's estate knew ages ago that they had not received accurate pay, and they could have swooped down to sieze further film rights even before the last extended edition film came out, or at the least when the earliest rumours of The Hobbit began to stir.


The Estate has been pressuring New Line to pay up practically since Film I was released- that they have been this patient is remarkable. Mind you also- the Estate is NOT trying to reclaim the film rights. If they win that part of the suit, the rights will simply revert to Zaentz. This suit will not affect *any other studio* making The Hobbit.


a.s.
Valinor


Feb 17 2008, 5:59am

Post #291 of 342 (13458 views)
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the more you learn, the more you listen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I haven't published in the Tolkien realm as have some other "fans" here on Torn, I've certainly read a lot of Tolkien-related material--much of which I found after 2004 when I found Torn.

Which I found because of an article about the movies!

Fancy that.

But my point is, the more I read, the more I listen to what others discuss. It seems to go hand in hand somehow. The more I listen, the more I learn. The more I learn, the more I listen.

Don't know where I fit in these lists of "fans". I've read a lot of all those listed but only part of HOME and haven't read History of Hobbit yet, and read COH only grudgingly and with bad temper. Cool I've read most of the major critics and lots of the minor critics and lots of dissertations and magazine articles and straight through LOTR Companion, etc.

And in the end it boils down to one thing: Frodo's Journey. I'm an odd sort of Tolkien "fan", I guess, getting spiritual inspiration from a book I originally loved for the magic and the elves but ended up reading as a treastise on Providence, mercy, and grace.

"I can manage it", said Frodo. "I must". I can't think of better words to live by, fiction or non-fiction.

I imagine in 500 years the story of Frodo will still be told, and we won't be seeing the original version by that time. Tolkien's story will pass into something like a "real" myth, the way we have countless re-tellings of Mallory. Will we still be arguing about how people re-tell the story of Frodo, I wonder?

Probably. I'm sure there will still be Tolkien nerds in 2508. I wonder how much my 2nd edition HMs will be worth by then?

Cool

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."

"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 17 2008, 6:27am

Post #292 of 342 (13390 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's not so much about categorising fans, but about tolerance.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 17 2008, 11:56am

Post #293 of 342 (13382 views)
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Yes! and [In reply to] Can't Post

not assigning people into groups, and most especially drawing conclusions about a person because of the "group" they've been assigned to. That's the point about NARF. We NARFs are amusing ourselves at the expense of those who accused us of not being real fans; we've somehow come up short in whatever measurement those folks are using to assign us to a group.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 17 2008, 12:15pm

Post #294 of 342 (13384 views)
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Oh yes :) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
not assigning people into groups, and most especially drawing conclusions about a person because of the "group" they've been assigned to.


*lol* That can't work anyway - these groups don't say anything about the character of a person, and the character is saying much more than any opinions about LotR.



In Reply To
That's the point about NARF. We NARFs are amusing ourselves at the expense of those who accused us of not being real fans; we've somehow come up short in whatever measurement those folks are using to assign us to a group.


Ah yes, I can imagine! That has to be a lot of fun at their expense! Cool

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 17 2008, 2:10pm

Post #295 of 342 (13392 views)
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They're not here every day [In reply to] Can't Post

because they're off reading those wonderfully rich books. I bow deeply with much appreciation to those Sir Edmund Hillarys of Tolkien's works. While I have most of those pieces sitting right here on my shelves, I've yet to climb most of those mountains.

TORn is an island of wonder to me.




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


overlithe64
Rivendell


Feb 17 2008, 2:43pm

Post #296 of 342 (13382 views)
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thats quite the list [In reply to] Can't Post

I think fandom can't actually clasified. I have read TLOR many times as well as the Hobbit. I managed the Sil once and I use it for reference. I've read the unfinished tales at least twice. But I still can argue a thing about Morgoth...lol. Hobbits and their history interest me more, I have a very difficult time with "histories" real or imagined and the dates and relationships all get twisted in my head.

IT doesn't mean I feel any less passionate about the entire work, history is just not my thing.

As to Frodo and inspiration???? Sorry you couldn't draw strength in a difficult time, though its sounds like it was too overwhelming to even look for inspiration.
He inspires me greatly but it is a personal things, it is one of the things that is so wonderful....We all love it but not always the same things touch us.


a.s.
Valinor


Feb 17 2008, 3:06pm

Post #297 of 342 (13385 views)
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& you're an island of wonder to Torn!! [In reply to] Can't Post

The stars were aligned for the good of all, when you and Torn found each other, gramma!!

Heart

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."

"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"


Annael
Immortal


Feb 17 2008, 4:05pm

Post #298 of 342 (13380 views)
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no? [In reply to] Can't Post

My list was derived from observation of this board since 1999. In that time I've read many stories from those who have been through some very tough times indeed, and have pointed to LOTR in general and Frodo (or Sam) in particular as inspiring them to persevere. One example: just last week, weaver lost her business in a fire. The tree in front survived - she is now calling it The White Tree & taking it as a sign that the business will be reborn.


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Annael
Immortal


Feb 17 2008, 4:14pm

Post #299 of 342 (13386 views)
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that's the nub [In reply to] Can't Post

a fan is anyone who identifies themselves as a fan.

Some are more casual about it, some are more obsessed. The obsessiveness can take different directions. You left out learning Tengwar and writing in it - I went through a phase of that in junior high with my friends, mostly so we could pass notes no one else could read, but also because we loved LOTR so much and wanted to be part of that world.


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 17 2008, 6:49pm

Post #300 of 342 (13361 views)
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The thing is... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that some people loved some of those changes while others hated them, and you may have liked some changes that others hated. You can't please everyone.

(I liked seeing more of Arwen, since she does marry one of the main heroes in the end- could have done it without the whole "dying" subplot, though). I don't care where Anduril showed up, hated the elves at Helm's Deep, hated Frodo telling Sam to go home, hated Gandalf in the third film... esp. with the Witch-king! GAH!

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