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Why Did Galadriel Choose Gandalf to Lead The White Council She Established?

Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Jul 9 2014, 6:06pm

Post #1 of 20 (5681 views)
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Why Did Galadriel Choose Gandalf to Lead The White Council She Established? Can't Post

Well, the 2nd one, at least.

Though we know that Gandalf refused, whether he really felt that Saruman should do it as he is the sort of official head of the order or had other thoughts about it, I am not sure.

Is it possible that Galadriel already sensed in Saruman the growing evil or greed? I mean she herself had grand ambitions but that did not make her evil necessarily. Also, I guess if she could sort of suspect Sauron who disguised himself Annatar, it may be possible she can sense it but not pin it down. At the end of the LOTR, even Saruman acknowledged that he did not trust Galadriel as she was always scheming for Gandalf, etc.

What do you think?


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 9 2014, 7:09pm

Post #2 of 20 (5441 views)
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Wisdom and humility [In reply to] Can't Post

These are leading features of Gandalf's character. I suspect it was the wisdom that appealed to Galadriel, and the humility that led him to refuse.

At this stage I doubt Galadriel sensed anything amiss with Saruman other than a generally autocratic nature, which I can easily imagine would rub her the wrong way.








CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 9 2014, 8:39pm

Post #3 of 20 (5428 views)
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Candidates [In reply to] Can't Post

She was born with the ability to see inside of people, reading their character if not all their thoughts, and she must have seen that Radagast wasn't serious enough and Saruman was, evil or not, not a team player. Gandalf showed empathy for all races and stayed truest to his mission, whereas Saruman was self-centered.

What I wonder is why she didn't make herself the leader, or Elrond, or Cirdan? For that matter, why didn't Elrond or Cirdan summon the White Council? Cirdan was the oldest high-ranking Elf in MEarth, and Elrond had some incredible lineage in addition to being Gil-Galad's lieutenant. Why didn't Elrond show more leadership?

Further, at the Council of Elrond, why were there Elves from the Havens and Mirkwood present, but none from Lorien, the birthplace of the White Council? That's quite an omission. Elrond says the others were "summoned," but why wasn't Galadriel or some emissary or hers there?


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 9 2014, 8:55pm

Post #4 of 20 (5421 views)
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The Istari were sent for this purpose. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's why it was natural for one of them to lead. Why Galadriel was the convener of the White Council I don't know.

As for the Council of Elrond, I have the impression it was only partly planned, and partly a pickup. Galdor, for example, had "come on an errand from Círdan the Shipwright." Legolas, Gloin, and Gimli had come to seek Elrond's counsel because of issues (escape of Gollum, Black Rider visitors). Boromir just showed up that morning. Gandalf had been in Rivendell for a while, and Frodo had been recuperating, but maybe there wasn't time to summon someone from Lorien; it takes a while to travel that far.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jul 9 2014, 8:57pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 9 2014, 9:39pm

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Planned by whom? [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond indicated that fate brought them together:


Quote
‘That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.


So why wasn't Galadriel "called?" Because she was too tempted by the Ring? Really, in a crowded room with people like Elrond and Gandalf present? She might have passed her test right here.

Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 242). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 9 2014, 11:06pm

Post #6 of 20 (5410 views)
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She was needed in Lorien, maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

...to care for the surviving Fellowship and Gandalf when he turned up. Coming to Rivendell at that time might have interfered with this important step.

Note that Frodo wasn't ready to offer anyone the Ring at Rivendell, it was only after surviving Moria and losing Gandalf that he really realized how great the burden was. Had Galadriel been in Rivendell, she might not have had the opportunity to be tested.








Cari
Bree

Jul 9 2014, 11:39pm

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Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

If I remember correctly Dol Guldur was already attacking Lorien at this time so that may be the reason.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 10 2014, 12:13am

Post #8 of 20 (5395 views)
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Dol Guldur didn't attack until much later [In reply to] Can't Post

"First assault on Lorien" was when Frodo reached Shelob's lair. (in March; the Council was October0


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 10 2014, 12:26am

Post #9 of 20 (5399 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

the Fellowship sat in Rivendell while messengers traveled to Lorien--and back again! If Galadriel really needed to be in Lorien to greet Frodo's arrival, and had been summoned by fate or Eru or whatever to attend the Council, she could have been home to greet home in plenty of time.

Frodo had already asked Gandalf to take the Ring in Bag End. He managed to give it away to Bombadil (though wanted it back, of course). He sounded half-ready to give it to Aragorn as the rightful owner at the Council:


Quote
"Then it belongs to you, and not to me at all!" cried Frodo in amazement, springing to his feet, as if he expected the Ring to be demanded at once.


Before he volunteers to take the Ring away, he's looking for a way out:

Quote

Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo’s side in Rivendell filled all his heart.

Had Galadriel been there, maybe talking to him in private before anything was decided, he would have been just as amenable as before to give it up, I believe.

It doesn't quite make sense that Galadriel wasn't there when all the others were summoned somehow. In fact, it must have seemed odd to her that the Council took place without her participation, given that she was the one who formed the White Council, owned a Ring, and was one of the greatest Noldor still alive. One of those committee invitation oversights.


Cari
Bree

Jul 10 2014, 2:45am

Post #10 of 20 (5386 views)
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Possibly [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for refreshing my memory ^.^

The most probable reason I can think of is that circumstances within Lorien stopped Galadriel from joining and Tolkien never said what they were or just overlooked it.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 10 2014, 3:39am

Post #11 of 20 (5382 views)
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agree, odd [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...and i would say... +the+ greatest noldo left in middle-earth, and the mightiest elf in middle-earth of all the kindreds.

the masses of weighty events of the sil always weigh on my mind, and when i think of the events of lotr and the council specifically, it seems amazing that someone who had walked with the valar, had walked across the helcaraxe, had conversed with feanor, fingolfin, turgon, finrod, orodreth, melain, luthien, thingol.... this person was interacting with frodo and aragorn and pippin and gimli. as great a shadow that the events of the ring throw, galadriel's shadow seems greater, as it encompasses the events of the trees and the struggle with morgoth.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 10 2014, 4:01am

Post #12 of 20 (5400 views)
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Galadriel originally led the Council of the Wise [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think that's why it was natural for one of them to lead. Why Galadriel was the convener of the White Council I don't know.



Lady Galadriel founded and led the original Council of the Wise from its inception in S.A. 1780 until the Istari joined to create the White Council in T.A. 2463. From the beginning, the Council always met in Rivendell (the sole possible exception being the White Council of T.A. 2941, unless Jackson had it right and the Council met during the time that Thorin & Co. was resting in Rivendell).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jul 10 2014, 6:14pm

Post #13 of 20 (5365 views)
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I don't remember exactly - didn't it take Boromir a Year to Find Rivendell ? [In reply to] Can't Post

And as Elizabeth correctly said, he turned up the very morning of the council ???Smile


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Jul 11 2014, 7:46am

Post #14 of 20 (5347 views)
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Hmmm..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought perhaps that she did sense some evil in him or at least not enough to trust him because in the end of the book, Saruman himself said in Many Partings:

'Then once more you are going the wrong way,' said Gandalf, 'and I see no hope in your journey. But will you scorn our help? For we offer it to you.' 'To me?' said Saruman. 'Nay, pray do not smile at me! I prefer your frowns. And as for the Lady here, I do not trust her: she always hated me, and schemed for your part. I do not doubt that she has brought you this way to have the pleasure of gloating over my poverty. Had I been warned of your pursuit, I would have denied you the pleasure.''Saruman,' said Galadriel, 'we have other errands and other cares that seem to us more urgent than hunting for you. Say rather that you are overtaken by good fortune; for now you have a last chance.'
'If it be truly the last, I am glad,' said Saruman; 'for I shall be spared the trouble of refusing it again. All my hopes are ruined, but I would not share yours. If you have any.'
So, "always hated me" is pretty deep. Saruman obviously knew that Galadriel did not trust him, and how far this goes I am not really sure....


squire
Half-elven


Jul 11 2014, 12:08pm

Post #15 of 20 (5349 views)
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"Saruman himself said..." [In reply to] Can't Post

Not the authority we should look to for honest or accurate reporting, I should think.

From the way the passage is written, and from Saruman's entire arc in the story, I've always taken this scene to mean that Saruman is mistaken in his estimate of Galadriel's attitude towards him, and is still, as he has always done, projecting his own feelings of betrayal and mistrust onto her. Galadriel is a symbol of grace in the story, and famously knows how to love those who do not love her back - Gimli being the most famous example, but remember also Aragorn's rebuke to Boromir that one brings one's own evil into Lorien, which is not an evil place.



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PhantomS
Rohan


Jul 11 2014, 9:28pm

Post #16 of 20 (5326 views)
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hence fate. [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel is not there because she is not in Rivendell for any purpose. Everyone at the Council is there for different reasons- Cirdan's representative is perhaps the only one summoned, while everyone else is there by coincidence. Frodo and co have just arrived with Aragorn, Legolas is there to report Gollum's disappearance, Boromir has finally arrived after over 200 days of solo wandering, Gloin is there to ask for counsel from Elrond regarding the black messenger. Galadriel, it seems has no reason to consult with her son-in-law (who seems to consult with her). Elrond sees this meeting of peoples as fate. There are also already several Elves at the Council and are the majority.

Galadriel also receives messages from Elrond , like a CEO getting minutes of meetings from the managers. It's noteworthy that Elrond sends his sons on errantry quite regularly to Lothlorien, so much so that Galadriel is already prepared to meet the Fellowship. There is no need to hear what the council has to say if their decision is communicated directly to Lothlorien. Gandalf and Elrond are present at the Council, and that is probably enough.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jul 13 2014, 11:07pm

Post #17 of 20 (5277 views)
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Maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

She felt that she would have more influence with Gandalf whereas Saruman might be more of a rival. Smile


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 14 2014, 4:44am

Post #18 of 20 (5280 views)
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Love this comparison [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Galadriel also receives messages from Elrond , like a CEO getting minutes of meetings from the managers.


Is there any record of Galadriel leaving Lórien at any time after she and Celeborn took up their rule there? (I know Galadriel threw down Dol Guldur, but that's later.) I'm pretty sure there isn't in LotR. I know the History of Celeborn and Galadriel in UT is sketchy in places, but I don't recall any trips being referenced there, either.

My point is, how often did Galadriel leave Lothlórien? Elrond doesn't seem to leave Rivendell much, either. Gandalf is the only bearer of one of the Elven rings that takes a more active part. I wonder if that has anything to do with Galadriel not being present at the Council?

TolkienBlog.com


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 14 2014, 12:24pm

Post #19 of 20 (5288 views)
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The Councils of the Wise [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Is there any record of Galadriel leaving Lórien at any time after she and Celeborn took up their rule there? (I know Galadriel threw down Dol Guldur, but that's later.) I'm pretty sure there isn't in LotR. I know the History of Celeborn and Galadriel in UT is sketchy in places, but I don't recall any trips being referenced there, either.

My point is, how often did Galadriel leave Lothlórien? Elrond doesn't seem to leave Rivendell much, either. Gandalf is the only bearer of one of the Elven rings that takes a more active part. I wonder if that has anything to do with Galadriel not being present at the Council?



Tolkien indicates that Lady Galadriel attended the Councils of the Wise, including the meetings of the White Council. As far as we know, all such meetings were held in Rivendell. The Council of Elrond was more of an ad hoc affair and hastily assembled (at least in Tolkien's legendarium); otherwise, Galadriel would have probably been invited.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Annatar598
Rohan


Jul 19 2014, 7:41pm

Post #20 of 20 (5277 views)
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She's not only the "CEO" [In reply to] Can't Post

But the mother-in-law as well!

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.

 
 

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