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emre43
Rohan
Jul 7 2014, 8:50am
Post #1 of 38
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"I found something in the Goblin tunnels...my courage"
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This has just dawned on me. It might be really obvious and I have been slow on the uptake and am late to the party. But when Bilbo says to Gandalf in DoS that he found his courage in the Goblin tunnels, he is directly referencing Gandalf's comment in AUJ that 'True courage is not about knowing when to take a life, but when to spare one'. Sparing Gollum's life in the tunnels gave Bilbo the courage that Gandalf prophesised it would.
I had always thought of Bilbo's comment as simply a cover up - but there is actually some truth in it.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 9:34am
Post #2 of 38
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... it is quite obvious I actually also did not realize this until I rewatched the AUJ EE some weeks ago.
It is indeed much more than just a lie or cover-up. It is also acted as more than that which always stood out to me but I couldn't connect it to AUJ.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Jul 7 2014, 9:34am
Post #3 of 38
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Never thought of it that way myself
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You may be onto something.
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adt100
Rohan
Jul 7 2014, 9:59am
Post #4 of 38
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Perfectly sums up how subtle, nuanced and moving some of scenes in the LOTR/Hobbit films can be. They don't come along often, but when they do, perfectly capture the spirit and of the character and of Tolkien's world in my opinion. For all the extraneous PJ 'bomabast' and over the top Hollywood blockbuster fare, PJ still gives us genuine moments of heart to cherish.
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KeenObserver
Lorien
Jul 7 2014, 12:05pm
Post #5 of 38
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I caught that reference immediately //
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”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 1:07pm
Post #6 of 38
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I would agree with this – and wish there were more moments like this, especially because I feel PJ is perfectly capable of producing very good, quite subtle films indeed. He would have been more than able to make DoS much more in line with Tolkien. It's just that that is not where his heart lies, I feel, at least not for the present…
Perfectly sums up how subtle, nuanced and moving some of scenes in the LOTR/Hobbit films can be. They don't come along often, but when they do, perfectly capture the spirit and of the character and of Tolkien's world in my opinion. For all the extraneous PJ 'bomabast' and over the top Hollywood blockbuster fare, PJ still gives us genuine moments of heart to cherish.
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Jul 7 2014, 1:43pm
Post #7 of 38
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Since we are talking about a scene that exists in DOS we can safely assume that his heart still lies there,you are maybe unable to see that for your own reasons(we have memorised them for sure),i accept it,but that HEART is definitely there.There is no such thing as selective placement of heart in that particular case
It is just like hearing these ridiculous accusations for Jackson: "When he is in line with Tolkien or follows Tolkien closely he is a charismatic and gifted director,but when he deviates from Tolkien,out of a sudden,he forgets how to be a great gifted director and is automatically transformed into a talentless and bad one which is absurd and untrue imo.
"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"
"Tolkien Nazis is the disgusting scourge of the internet"
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Jul 7 2014, 1:43pm
Post #8 of 38
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"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"
"Tolkien Nazis is the disgusting scourge of the internet"
(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Jul 7 2014, 1:44pm)
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Elessar
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 2:22pm
Post #9 of 38
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I see and feel plenty of Tolkien in DOS. I understand others may feel differently but that is something I do not agree with. I heard from a little birdie that the EE if DOS should help those that feel different from us as this came from someone who is a bit of a purist. So we shall see.
As far as the line in that sequence I felt it was talking about that as well but also covering up him about to tell Gandalf he found a ring.
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Jul 7 2014, 2:45pm
Post #10 of 38
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If the EE includes the majority or all the rumoured scenes,i reckon it is going to be incredible
"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"
"Tolkien Nazis is the disgusting scourge of the internet"
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 2:49pm
Post #11 of 38
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When making assertions that what other people are saying are 'ridiculous accusations', kindly state that this is JUST YOUR OPINION. Plenty of people disagree with YOUR OPINION – as no doubt they do with mine. This is an open forum and posters are welcome to state their opinion, both pro and con. If you don't like what someone is saying, I suggest you ignore it, instead of responding with a standard knee-jerk reaction.
Also, how can you say that 'that HEART is definitely there' with regard to PJ? You don't know the man, and what one reads in all the publicity for films is rarely what is actually the case.
Note that I do not intend to engage with you further, since I find your posts rude and unpleasant.
Since we are talking about a scene that exists in DOS we can safely assume that his heart still lies there,you are maybe unable to see that for your own reasons(we have memorised them for sure),i accept it,but that HEART is definitely there.There is no such thing as selective placement of heart in that particular case It is just like hearing these ridiculous accusations for Jackson: "When he is in line with Tolkien or follows Tolkien closely he is a charismatic and gifted director,but when he deviates from Tolkien,out of a sudden,he forgets how to be a great gifted director and is automatically transformed into a talentless and bad one which is absurd and untrue imo.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jul 7 2014, 2:52pm)
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Jul 7 2014, 3:01pm
Post #12 of 38
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You should read more carefully then
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as i wrote "IMO" at the end of my sentence.
I choose not to comment on the rest of what you wrote but i am planning to do so if you continue to reply just like the way you did before.
"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"
"Tolkien Nazis is the disgusting scourge of the internet"
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Elessar
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 4:09pm
Post #13 of 38
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It pleased me to read that and I quite enjoyed DOS. It had plenty of Tolkien and and had some other stuff as well but the EE bringing more Tolkien is fantastic. It should be if how he described what it brings. He didn't mention specifics because of an NDA but based ion the rumors we know I'm feeling quite happy.
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Jul 7 2014, 4:42pm
Post #14 of 38
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When making assertions that what other people are saying are 'ridiculous accusations', kindly state that this is JUST YOUR OPINION. Plenty of people disagree with YOUR OPINION – as no doubt they do with mine. This is an open forum and posters are welcome to state their opinion, both pro and con. If you don't like what someone is saying, I suggest you ignore it, instead of responding with a standard knee-jerk reaction. Also, how can you say that 'that HEART is definitely there' with regard to PJ? You don't know the man, and what one reads in all the publicity for films is rarely what is actually the case. Note that I do not intend to engage with you further, since I find your posts rude and unpleasant. Since we are talking about a scene that exists in DOS we can safely assume that his heart still lies there,you are maybe unable to see that for your own reasons(we have memorised them for sure),i accept it,but that HEART is definitely there.There is no such thing as selective placement of heart in that particular case It is just like hearing these ridiculous accusations for Jackson: "When he is in line with Tolkien or follows Tolkien closely he is a charismatic and gifted director,but when he deviates from Tolkien,out of a sudden,he forgets how to be a great gifted director and is automatically transformed into a talentless and bad one which is absurd and untrue imo.
NecromancerRising's response was fair and pleasant (suprisingly so I thought). These are forums for sharing opininions, the 'Reply to this post' button is there for a reason, this is not a place for reading things and ignoring them!
"Also, how can you say that 'that HEART is definitely there' with regard to PJ?"
Does the same not apply to you saying you don't think his heart is there?
IMO I think "Please think before you write by Glorfindela" is tad condescending.
Just a friendly reply.
(This post was edited by SafeUnderHill on Jul 7 2014, 4:42pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 5:00pm
Post #15 of 38
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I don't agree, for the reasons mentioned. I personally found the response offensive (the use of such words as 'ridiculous accusations'; the statement that 'we have memorised them [i.e. my criticisms] for sure'), as are most of that individual's responses to my posts that criticise DoS.
I always state that my point of view is MY OPINION, which others may of course disagree with, for instance by inserting 'I think', 'in my view' and so on into my posts. I said 'I feel" that adhering to Tolkien is not where PJ's heart lies, at least not for the present (in other words, I clearly stated that this was my opinion, which you may or may not agree with). The other poster's statement was posed as a definite fact, i.e. 'the heart is definitely there' – its a kind of knee-jerk reaction.
NecromancerRising's response was fair and pleasant (suprisingly so I thought).
"Also, how can you say that 'that HEART is definitely there' with regard to PJ?" Does the same not apply to you saying you don't think his heart is there?
Just a friendly reply.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jul 7 2014, 5:00pm)
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tsmith675
Gondor
Jul 7 2014, 5:15pm
Post #16 of 38
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Well you certainly are a Keen Observer.
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Our destiny lies above us.
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KeenObserver
Lorien
Jul 7 2014, 5:27pm
Post #17 of 38
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I gotta live up to my TORn forums username
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”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Jul 7 2014, 5:29pm)
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KeenObserver
Lorien
Jul 7 2014, 5:47pm
Post #18 of 38
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What I had suspected all along
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I heard from a little birdie that the EE if DOS should help those that feel different from us as this came from someone who is a bit of a purist. We continue to slowly inch ever closer towards official confirmation of the supplemental PJ-Tolkien fantasticality that lies therein.
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
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Elessar
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 6:00pm
Post #19 of 38
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I really liked DOS and as I've said multiple times before there is plenty of Tolkien but I had a feeling the EE would do just what it sounds like.
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Jul 7 2014, 6:16pm
Post #20 of 38
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Yeah, that's a nice little detail,
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using the truth (he did actually find courage down there) to conceal the ring from Gandalf. Though i always thought that the "true courage is not about knowing when to take a life, but when to spare one" foreshadowing was a bit too on the nose, but a nice moment nonetheless.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 7 2014, 10:28pm
Post #21 of 38
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I'm just re-watching DoS at the moment. I love it. So much of the added material echoes Tolkien in ways I had never expected, and visually it's amazing. Tonight's episode include the confrontation between Thorin and Bard on the steps of the Town Hall, which is such a strong, beautiful scene. Really looking forward to the EE because I want more, and previous EEs include some of my favourite scenes.
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Jul 7 2014, 10:38pm
Post #22 of 38
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I loved DOS.There are so many Tolkiensque moments in this movie as well as many exquisite additions by Jackson and Co that make all the missteps that exist, pale in comparison with them.I sincerely hope the EE will do justice to the fans of this movie, but moreso to the folks who remain aloof and distant to the TE.
"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"
"Tolkien Nazis is the disgusting scourge of the internet"
(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Jul 7 2014, 10:39pm)
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Elessar
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 11:29pm
Post #23 of 38
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I'm with ya on the EE. They always seem to add so much great material that feels like Tolkien. Of course they do add some goofy material, which I am able to just move past when surrounded by so many awesome moments.
I love that scene as well. I just bought the Line of Durin print from Weta. It obviously reminds me of that sequence, which is one of the reason I love the trailer the speech is tied to. If all that makes sense. Lol
I'm with ya. I want more as well. It's like getting a cherry on top of something that already is so good.
I'm saving my next viewing for the plane ride home from SDCC. :)
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Elessar
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 11:31pm
Post #24 of 38
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I agree. That's the thing for me with all the films so far. None if them are perfect but the stuff I enjoy outweighs what I don't so I just move on past quickly. This friend of mine is quite tough to please and if he feels it brings the film more in line with Tolkien I think we will be very happy.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 8 2014, 12:51pm
Post #25 of 38
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Thank you for sharing this insight!
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It may have been obvious to some, but I for one had totally missed it!!! It does add a lot to the scene and Bilbo's answer - even if it is still a cover-up.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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