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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Rońc son of Carc [possible spoiler]
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SkaldOfTheNorse
Bree


Jul 6 2014, 9:36am

Post #1 of 37 (1156 views)
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Rońc son of Carc [possible spoiler] Can't Post

Do you think the third film will see Rońc the (partly bald) raven being summoned by the thrush and telling the party at Erebor that Smaug has been slain?

In my opinion it will add a little bit more of the fairy tale quality of the book to the third movie which will most likely be full of battles and will more and more have the tone of the LOTR movies (transitions from the Hobbit).
I always like the establishment of some part of the history of the creatures of Middle Earth to give some sense of depth to the story.

The Westron speaking ravens do strongly remind of Odin's raven (Hugin and Munin).

Skald Smile

ôNot all those who wander are lost.ö

(This post was edited by SkaldOfTheNorse on Jul 6 2014, 9:40am)


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 6 2014, 9:45am

Post #2 of 37 (601 views)
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No talking raven... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I am rather sure of that.

They avoided all those animal connected elements until now safe the bees and the (invented) bunnies.

Ravenhill suggests though that there will be some sort of inclusion.

Maybe Bofur will send a raven from the ruins of Esgaroth and Thorin one back to send for the remaining dwarves and let them know they are all alive. The people at Lake-town surely would assume at first that the Company was smoked by Smaug.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 6 2014, 9:47am

Post #3 of 37 (540 views)
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Well, if he's in, it'd be interesting to see how the scene's executed... [In reply to] Can't Post

... since so far, no animals talk in the movies. Well, excluding the spiders, which seemed to be heard only by Bilbo when he put on the ring.


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)

Laugh Thrall Wars! Teh partsies: Prologue, One (None save Avandel knows whither teh "One"), Two, Three


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


peterLF
Rivendell

Jul 6 2014, 9:57am

Post #4 of 37 (550 views)
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That of course would require that... [In reply to] Can't Post

They actually kill Smaug at laketown - which not everything indicates atm. Sadly.


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 6 2014, 10:31am

Post #5 of 37 (523 views)
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What indicates otherwise? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am wondering...

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Vepariga
The Shire


Jul 6 2014, 12:18pm

Post #6 of 37 (505 views)
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Could be like Arannir said [In reply to] Can't Post

Would be cool if,I think that after Smaug is killed in Lake Town, the Dwarves there will send a message on a Raven's leg to Erebor. That way you can have the raven delivering the message,not spoken,but still a way to include it.

- Vep - Guardsman of the woodland realm of Mirkwood -

(This post was edited by Vepariga on Jul 6 2014, 12:19pm)


Name
Rohan


Jul 6 2014, 12:43pm

Post #7 of 37 (498 views)
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............. [In reply to] Can't Post

There's no way Smaug is killed at any point later than his attack on Laketown. Just no way. It would completely mess up the story. It would mean Laketown would be fully destroyed, and it would also mean no one would survive Smaug's attack.

He will die during his attack on Laketown. That is the one thing I am confident in.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 6 2014, 1:00pm

Post #8 of 37 (479 views)
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Me too. [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug's death is the catalyst for the whole story afterwards. PB has commented on this several times and underlined how much she enjoys that structure in the book. I don't see why they would have changed their opinion on this. It is storytelling gold.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Farficom
Rivendell


Jul 6 2014, 1:20pm

Post #9 of 37 (458 views)
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I doubt it. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I have long thought that Roac would be a great addition to The Hobbit if not one of the best should they choose to use him. However, Peter Jackson seems to have an adverse reaction when it comes to the idea of talking animals. I could just imagine a scene involving Roac landing at Dain's feet to tell him of any and all goings on, and then him mounting his trusty battle boar... and then setting off for war.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 6 2014, 3:54pm

Post #10 of 37 (455 views)
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Still very much hoping for Rońc. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is going to be awkward to write around Rońc if he and his kin are left out. Thorin is going to need intel and to get word to Dain in the Iron Hills. The Dwarves left in Lake-town could bring word of Smaug's demise, but Thorin doesn't have enough followers to spare sending someone to the Iron Hills--not to mention that a message via raven would be much faster. There is still the possibility that Jackson will include the ravens but not have them speak; however, that diminishes the magical feel of Middle-earth, in my own humble opinion.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 6 2014, 3:56pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Jul 6 2014, 6:13pm

Post #11 of 37 (392 views)
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agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

on your last point, esp.

My tastes in fiction run more toward LOTR than the Hobbit. But what I *do* love about the Hobbit are moments like Roac and the ravens and Beorn and the thrush.

I am biding my time to see what they do with Roac who is 'precious' to me. :-)

corvids and all.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
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KeenObserver
Lorien


Jul 7 2014, 3:14am

Post #12 of 37 (324 views)
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You're darn right! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am very much hoping and wishing for an appearance from the talking raven too.

Your post has reinforced my sneaking suspicion about a possible inclusion.

This isn't the PJ of old; he likes to try new things.

Rońc and his voice could give the film a special quality.

öThe thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offerůö - Jose Bergamin


peterLF
Rivendell

Jul 7 2014, 11:53am

Post #13 of 37 (282 views)
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A couple of things that could change the story... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree to the extend that I would utterly hate a change, but I'm not 100% they are going with the book... A couple of things, all of which have been theorized on thoroughly on these forums since DoS (along with it's "artistic freedoms") premiered last year...:

-The Necromancer plays a far greater role in the story and has been completely established as being the mastermind and sole ultimate antagonist
-...Which means none of the storylines really depends on Smaug as greatly as they do in the book
-There is no doubt the Necromancer would have tried to recruit Smaug
-The goblin armies have already set off for the Lonely Mountain
-...Which again means the motivations for attacking have changed completely
-PBs love of the structure of the book seems negligible when they've already at numerous times stated that book structure never really translates well to movie structure. Especially not when making one book with one storyarch into a trilogy of films that each needs to be able to stand on their own.


I'm not saying (nor hoping) it's anywhere NEAR a 50:50 split (god no!), but taking but from that ending of the Desolation of Smaug - nothing would surprise me. I was hoping PJ would be better than say George Lucas in staying on point of quality, even after total artistic and budgetary freedom was given... But guess I was wrong.

Oh well, didn't mean to hijack the thread too much... Just concerned.


Retro315
Rivendell

Jul 7 2014, 2:41pm

Post #14 of 37 (264 views)
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Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

I do think there will be Ravens. I don't know that they'll speak. But a Raven is clearly stitched into the Durin Family tapestry.

I suspect news will come in the form of Fili, Kili, Oin and Bofur who will meet up with the Company at the Ravenhill location. There may be Ravens there, for posterity.

PJ has already side-stepped Bard speaking the language of Thrushes by having the "Legend of Girion's Ballista" and Bain's insistence that the dragon totally has a loose scale. It's up to Bard's killer eye-sight and arms now. I suspect he'll make for the ballista, Smaug will smash it, and he'll have to do something crazy impractical like loosing that wrought-iron arrow from his longbow. Perhaps the black arrow will even break and he'll have to jury-rig the arrowhead.

I imagine he'll side-step talking Ravens, but still include them because they're impossible to excise from the story completely. Bummer that - talking to animals is the faerie connection that gives guys like Bard their claim to the old royal First Age, Lords of Men heroes. Very Celtic stuff.

Sending Ravens as homing pigeons is a little too Game of Thrones.


MasterOrc
Rivendell


Jul 7 2014, 3:00pm

Post #15 of 37 (252 views)
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Good points PeterF..but [In reply to] Can't Post

I disagree that the "-The goblin armies have already set off for the Lonely Mountain" part because as we see in the movie, AZOG is questioning the Necromancer in Dol Goldur "what about Oakenshield", his head, etc.... then sends Bolg off to go after him and keep up the hunt...

These armies marching out of Dol Goldur are heading somewhere else to attack in force?? Mirkwood, Laketown? Could be. I'm sure once the word comes that Smaug is dead, then AZOG shifts the armies direction to the Lonely Mountain.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 7 2014, 3:35pm

Post #16 of 37 (253 views)
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Azog could be headed for Erebor. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
-The goblin armies have already set off for the Lonely Mountain
-...Which again means the motivations for attacking have changed completely



We only know that Azog will eventually reach the Lonely Mountain; we do not know for sure that it was his original destination. Sauron might have sent him to take control of the goblins in the Misty Mountains and the Grey Mountains first in order to boost his forces.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DjU
Lorien

Jul 7 2014, 5:50pm

Post #17 of 37 (241 views)
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So just as I thought... [In reply to] Can't Post

So just as I thought... absolutely no evidence or anything that points to them NOT killing Smaug at Laketown, just some half-cocked suppositions.

It's a barely more credible idea than suggesting he will die at Laketown and the be resurrected.

The fact at the end you then also drag out the George Lucas comparison clearly show you have a pre set expectation of how things are going to pan out and I doubt anyone could change your mind, even with absolute proof!


peterLF
Rivendell

Jul 9 2014, 11:49am

Post #18 of 37 (144 views)
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"proof"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you kidding? What are you looking for here, spoilers or confirmations from the studio? We haven't even had the teaser come out yet - NOTHING has been "proven". The book provides story as far as the book goes, but the movies are definitely more than what goes on in the book. You don't think the changes will be adressed? Don't think they happened for a reason? And might some of those reasons be related to the ending of the trilogy, not just the first two parts??

What I listed CAN be considered evidence, when you take into account that the three movies go together, and certain rules apply. So when you change one thing - you inadvertently (or not) change others. And we of course know for a FACT that events very essential to the story have been changed in major ways.

I don't have any "pre set expectations" - I just pointed out that even core event could be changed. Why? Since some already HAVE been. There is also no reason to not compare him to Lucas, since they share similar track record of focusing on things non-essential to story.

The only thing left is why you are being so bitchy about what I said? It's not like I've been yelling about what "is definitely going to happen". My original comment was a comment on a "what if"-scenario - one that I even deemed unlikely myself...! Why all the sudden fuss for no apparent reason?


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 9 2014, 12:00pm

Post #19 of 37 (147 views)
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PB [In reply to] Can't Post

But for those storylines she never said how much she likes it and how essential it is in her mind to the last part of the book.

Your arguments re the role of the Necromancer can also lead to a different conclusion: since Sauron is so important in this trilogy Smaug is even less needed as a villain during the battle.

No, I really cannot see this happening. Precisely because I believe what PJ has shown with TH is so much higher than some of the pitfalls Lucas and other have fallen into. The structure of the final part in the book is imho something they would never miss out on.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 9 2014, 2:46pm

Post #20 of 37 (135 views)
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Not so sure about Bain and the loose scale.... [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right that they've introduced the idea that Bard's family believe that Girion loosened a scale. And probably that will enable them to by-pass the thrush - but I don't know. Fact is that we've seen the thrush, and they've kept the association Tolkien made with the thrush and the hidden door ('when the thrush knocks'). They've also made a point of allowing Bilbo to see that Smaug has a missing scale. Now, there's no real point to Bilbo seeing it if Bard is simply going to see it too. I think the door is still open for Bilbo to send a message to Bard - deliberately or by accident, as he does in the book, by mentioning it where the thrush can hear him.

I'm sure you and others are right in predicting that the ravens won't speak, if there are ravens. On previous form that looks to be the way they're going. But I'd like to think that the door is still open to that too - after all, there's nothing at all implausible about a talking bird, birds can learn to use human language. Roac's special and I'd like to see him - and there has to be a way for Thorin to communicate with Dain. As for Game of Thrones, who cares? That's only a copy - Tolkien got there first.

For now I'll hope for the talking birds, because I like them and think it would be sad to lose them. If they're not in the film, well, I'll just hope they've come up with a creative alternative.


Kendalf
Rohan


Jul 9 2014, 7:25pm

Post #21 of 37 (115 views)
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There's a difference between "talking" and "talking", though... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
after all, there's nothing at all implausible about a talking bird, birds can learn to use human language


But there's a world of difference between a bird mimicking (very approximately, it must be said) one or two words that have been repeated to it ad infinitum by its owner and a bird that can listen to a message, understand it, store it, recall it and communicate it effectively, with additional context, at the other end, isn't there?

Isn't there?! Crazy

I'm afraid "talking birds" (as in birds that actually communicate rather than mimic) are completely implausible and I suspect they'd prove a nightmare for Weta's animators, too. How exactly is a rigid beak and rudimentary tongue supposed to articulate sufficiently and convincingly to avoid sniggers and rolling eyes in the audience? I don't think it's a risk worth taking.

Like you, I hope they do retain the concept, though. Have Roac croak and have someone learned in the tongues of birds interpret. That would seem to me to be the best compromise.

Smile

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 9 2014, 8:11pm

Post #22 of 37 (96 views)
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Talking ravens in movies is hardly anything new... [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember an old Vincent Price vehicle (possibly the 1963 film The Raven) that used the device. If it was good enough both for Tolkien and Roger Corman, I think that Peter Jackson's Weta Workshop should be able to figure out how to do it.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Kendalf
Rohan


Jul 9 2014, 8:32pm

Post #23 of 37 (93 views)
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In my view, talking animals are better suited elsewhere [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I remember an old Vincent Price vehicle...I think that Peter Jackson's Weta Workshop should be able to figure out how to do it.


You're right, there are plenty of examples but I'm not sure how many of them have appeared in multi-million dollar tentpole movies hoping to rake in a billion...

To me, "talking birds", or talking animals of any sort for that matter, feel better suited to B-movies, animations and much smaller-scale fantasy fare.

But then maybe it's just me Smile

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 9 2014, 8:35pm

Post #24 of 37 (87 views)
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I understand your point-of-view. [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel that Roac and his kin are important enough and charismatic enough as supporting players to warrant an exception.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Kendalf
Rohan


Jul 9 2014, 8:38pm

Post #25 of 37 (86 views)
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(Nods) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I feel that Roac and his kin are important enough and charismatic enough as supporting players to warrant an exception.


Quite possibly Smile

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."

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