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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 4 2014, 2:37am
Post #1 of 20
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CoH Chapter Discussion: The Coming of Glaurung
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As Cats had a Technical Malfunction I will post this weeks discussion! Glaurung is coming...shall we set out the welcome mat? An interesting and intimate insight into Morgoth here: 'And this they would not brook; for it was the purpose of Morgoth to subdue all Beleriand and to search out its every corner, so that none in any hole or hiding might live that were not thrall to him.' We have touched on Morgoth's ruling style in other discussions - what thoughts does this inspire in the 'why' of Morgoth's choices? Does this approach make him stronger or weaker do you think? Turin's choices: at this junction, even as he may have become lost to the eye, Turin chooses to stand forth as Dorlas asks for his aid on behalf of the woodsmen. Is it a noble gesture, as fitting a son of Hurin? Turin's strike back against Warlord Glaurung bring the two opponents to quiet contemplation of each other as the snow falls. Turin lays out the choices as surmounting his doom or falling: in truth, having slain Glaurung, does he do both? Or does he fail more than succeed, or vice versa? The Greek chorus, as CuriousG mentioned in the earlier chapter posts: is it finally here in the form of Niniel's sadness upon conceiving her child? That in itself is so unusual it is rife with meaning. I wonder if any Elven counsel were nearby, if the portents would have been read earlier: good reason from a story-perspective to have the line of Hurin separated from elf insights? Echoes of the quest for the destruction of the ring here - the task of destroying Glaurung, like destroying the Ring, is not to be achieved through an armed force, but by a quiet few. I wonder here how much of this is JRRT's heroic idea of re-humanizing conflict; no masses or machines of war can solve the final conflict, but a few brave souls who volunteer for the job. And as we see in the debate before they leave (as in Elrond's Council) neither fellowship forged in peace and amity. Thoughts? 'For I say this to you: neither you nor I shall be slain by this Dragon, nor by any foes of the North.' A great example of foresight that is both dead-on yet gone quite wrong? And how about this line: 'Does Finduilas lie still between me and my doom?' as Glaurung avoids the Crossing and places himself at Turin's advantage at the chasm. Did Turin ever 'get' how Finduilas stood between him and his doom - or is this the answer to the riddle for him here? I am curious to know everyone's take on Niniel's raising of a band and heading to the battle site. 'If ill befall, I shall not wish to escape, and now your wisdom is in vain, and you shall not hinder me!' Is this a bit of defiant Morwen; or more of a noble pride? Also noting that, though Niniel references being two months gone with child, she does not take this into account at all in risking her (and thus the child's) life in following Turin. The disturbing vision of Niniel we close with: her shuddering at the chill falls: a clear use of foresight here. Do you find it effective? And in like devotion (and wounded pride?), Brandir renounces all in favor of following Niniel. Can his and Niniel's love and the choices they make then be compared? And in a fitting metaphor, scorned 'wisdom' limps after the Children of Hurin... Thanks all for reading along!
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 4 2014, 2:46am)
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cats16
Half-elven
Jul 4 2014, 8:28am
Post #2 of 20
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Thanks, Brethil! I'm on my phone quickly using rare WiFi. Laptop is still...not working. But I'm having fun where I'm at and come back when things get settled soon. Cheers, everyone!
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 4 2014, 7:53pm
Post #3 of 20
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Hard to follow on that itty bitty phone screen - I've tried! (Forget about posting large bits). But stop in if you can, and have fun!!!!
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 4 2014, 10:10pm
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No! No dragons are wanted here...today!! I suggest you try over the mountains or across the Pond!! Well, Morgoth is no great statesman. He seems to be wanting to feed a deep-seated inferiority complex. He can't beat the other Valar in creative efforts, so he turns to corruption and power, tearing down others to make himself comparatively better. Majorly insecure and a slave to his ego-- If I can't be the best no one will!! Turin in this juncture seems to accept that he cannot run from his fate, and he seems to feel resigned to it. It has also been said elsewhere that Turin has a superior power and ability for empathy and pity. I think he is considering the previous destruction of Nargothrond and the Outlaw Band, and he seems to want to prevent any such thing from happening again. This heroism though seems to be the quiet resignation of the one who knows he is about to die-- akin to the prophetic death-sight-- the courage of desperation. I think that Turin's boast of invulnerability is a bit of pride, coupled with foresight-- none of them were killed directly by it were they? It's a bit like the tricky genie that grants your wish in an unexpected way, and I see a parallel to Glorifindel's prophecy about the Witch-King. Both were technically correct, but misinterpreted, giving those involved a false sense of pride. I am reminded of JRR's disappointment in Macbeth when the forest did no actually march to the castle, and the feeling of being cheated of the 'man not born of woman' as born via cesarean section. Ah, Finduilas... I really wonder what is up with her? Could this be a seam where the different drafts were compiled by CT and a few undeveloped elements were left in? I know that in my own mediocre writing, some elements gain importance over time and develop into more complex ideas. Could this conception of Finduilas be the embryonic germ of an idea that hasn't matured? In Nienel's defiance I do see a bit of Morwen resurfacing. If we do consider her as Morwen's daughter (I do) I think that this is a manifestation of that same spirit in her, but at this point she is emotionally impacted, just as Morwen was in the loss of Hurin, Lalatih, and Turin, causing her judgement, usually so precise, to become impaired.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 5 2014, 1:22pm
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…at the last two choices only could there be for Turambar: to sit seedless until he was found, driven forth like a rat; or to go forth soon to battle, and be revealed. It's an interesting quote for those of us who like to think about Turin's strengths and weaknesses, and how these interact (if at all) with the curse (if there is a curse)… Sounds to me that he can't outrun his fate, but can choose how to meet it. Has that been the problem all along? And apologies for the belated "Coming of NoWizardMe into these Discussions". I'm sorry to have missed several good chapters!
~~~~~~ "… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.” Arthur Martine "nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 7 2014, 12:39am
Post #6 of 20
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No! No dragons are wanted here...today!! I suggest you try over the mountains or across the Pond!! Yes, only Fealoki is welcomed here! (Wraps self in tin-foil). Well, Morgoth is no great statesman. He seems to be wanting to feed a deep-seated inferiority complex. He can't beat the other Valar in creative efforts, so he turns to corruption and power, tearing down others to make himself comparatively better. Majorly insecure and a slave to his ego-- If I can't be the best no one will!! Exactly Rem - and that quote to me gives that insight, versus more distant and strategic bits that make him seem more other-wordly and less...can I say...almost human? A chink in the armor, the need to touch and control and have everyone and everything aware of him: another way I wonder that Eru rubbed our Melkor the wrong way from day one, in being exactly that without effort. ( reminds me of those lines in "Silence of the Lambs" when Hannibal is discussing serial killers with Clarice: They covet. What do they covet? What they see every day.) Turin in this juncture seems to accept that he cannot run from his fate, and he seems to feel resigned to it. It has also been said elsewhere that Turin has a superior power and ability for empathy and pity. I think he is considering the previous destruction of Nargothrond and the Outlaw Band, and he seems to want to prevent any such thing from happening again. This heroism though seems to be the quiet resignation of the one who knows he is about to die-- akin to the prophetic death-sight-- the courage of desperation. This moment seems to be a very son-of-Hurin kind of moment, and as we have seen before I think the strength and (mixed) gift of prophecy before death is a hallmark of where things will lead. I think that Turin's boast of invulnerability is a bit of pride, coupled with foresight-- none of them were killed directly by it were they? It's a bit like the tricky genie that grants your wish in an unexpected way, and I see a parallel to Glorifindel's prophecy about the Witch-King. Both were technically correct, but misinterpreted, giving those involved a false sense of pride. I am reminded of JRR's disappointment in Macbeth when the forest did no actually march to the castle, and the feeling of being cheated of the 'man not born of woman' as born via cesarean section. Great connection here!!!!! I love the real world link in thought, since JRRT is clear about that feeling of disappointment when the prophetic words are a bit of sleight-of-hand. Ah, Finduilas... I really wonder what is up with her? Could this be a seam where the different drafts were compiled by CT and a few undeveloped elements were left in? I know that in my own mediocre writing, some elements gain importance over time and develop into more complex ideas. Could this conception of Finduilas be the embryonic germ of an idea that hasn't matured? In Nienel's defiance I do see a bit of Morwen resurfacing. If we do consider her as Morwen's daughter (I do) I think that this is a manifestation of that same spirit in her, but at this point she is emotionally impacted, just as Morwen was in the loss of Hurin, Lalatih, and Turin, causing her judgement, usually so precise, to become impaired. (I am sure your writing is NOT mediocre, my dear!) As far as the women go, I have to read further into Finduilas when time allows and revisit Arda Reconstructed to see how the grafting happened. On your analysis of Niniel, I agree largely; her reaction to loss is the vulnerability she shares with her whole family. Begun maybe with the loss of Lalaith (with her symbolic name) like a legacy from Morwen. The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 7 2014, 12:40am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 7 2014, 12:48am
Post #7 of 20
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…at the last two choices only could there be for Turambar: to sit seedless until he was found, driven forth like a rat; or to go forth soon to battle, and be revealed. " Turin cornered" (NoWiz)
Potentially even more...like Turin Distilled. It seems like all his other actions have indeed left him a mere two choices at this juncture, and they are extreme and opposite. Rather like Turin's patterns all along. It's an interesting quote for those of us who like to think about Turin's strengths and weaknesses, and how these interact (if at all) with the curse (if there is a curse)… All it take is knowing, with Vala foresight perhaps, how this family will behave: if one says "No! Don't you go jump off that yawning cliff! That's an order!" to those who are determined to rebel...hmmm, manipulation becomes very easy. Sounds to me that he can't outrun his fate, but can choose how to meet it. Has that been the problem all along? Potentially yes...I feel a link to LOTR here, in Aragorn (early struggles) and Gandalf (lesson learned, a master of wise choices.) And apologies for the belated "Coming of NoWizardMe into these Discussions". I'm sorry to have missed several good chapters! We missed you! Glad to see you! The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 7 2014, 8:24pm
Post #8 of 20
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Melkor Morgoth the Manipulator
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Thanks for leading this chapter, Breth! And it's a good thing Wiz showed up when he did, cuz in another chapter or two, everyone will be dead, and who's going to clean up the mess? Melkor as human: to consider your and Rem's points about Melkor needing to control everything not as a jealous god but as a petty, insecure individual, and also the point about Morgoth the Psychologist manipulating the Hurinites with insight into human behavior, he seems to dwindle from that pedestal he's perched on and appears as more of a human antagonist, someone who's good at being bad but not an inscrutable divine power. (In fact, he seems so unhappy and twisted in a down-to-earth way, I think a certain TORNite might pity Melkor the way she pities Orcs, but I won't type words into her mouth.) Glaurung is as much about manipulation as Morgoth, and if I think about traditional dragons, including Smaug, his performance of eating people and setting things on fire seems rather perfunctory, like he's just earning his merit badge, but his real speciality is infecting people's minds. He didn't burn & eat Turin when he had the chance, nor even have his Orcs torture him to death. The real pain in service of Morgoth's malice in this story is emotional and psychological rather than physical. I think that's one reason why the destruction of Nargothrond seems so brief and almost a non-event against the greater tableau. That was a physical thing, and it almost distracts from all the mental hijinks going on, so its coverage needed to be cursory.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 7 2014, 8:36pm
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"Ah, Finduilas... I really wonder what is up with her? Could this be a seam where the different drafts were compiled by CT and a few undeveloped elements were left in? I know that in my own mediocre writing, some elements gain importance over time and develop into more complex ideas. Could this conception of Finduilas be the embryonic germ of an idea that hasn't matured?" I get the same gut feeling that there's more to the Finduilas story than ever comes out. Partly because I think that Turin's life is so complex that a single person couldn't have come between him and his fate. If anyone could have, it seems it would have been Beleg, who was with Turin longer and had the role of mentor/protector/friend, but he wasn't able to set the ship on the right course. I just don't see how Finduilas could have on her own. Or was Tolkien thinking of the powerful love behind the Beren & Luthien story that changed their fates, the world's fate, etc, and a Turin-Finduilas romance would have had the same potency? Maybe, but it doesn't seem developed as such. Niniel was doing so well in this tale until she got the crazy, bold idea to follow after Turin. Was that her pregnancy hormones clouding her judgment? Or was she imitating her mother while becoming a mother herself? Though at this point in the story I feel like everyone has a noose around their neck, and now it's beginning to tighten and tug them in the direction that was plotted out for them.
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nandorin elf
Bree
Jul 11 2014, 5:11pm
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Sounds to me that he can't outrun his fate, but can choose how to meet it. Has that been the problem all along?
That made me think of Sador's bit of advice to young Turin that one who runs from their fate often finds they have taken a short-cut to meet it. I wonder if that is not the root of a lot of Turin's problems. When something goes wrong, he gets spooked and runs. Always running, always taking a new name, always trying to hide. As if by keeping his identity secret, he will be elude his doom. Was Turin's death by Glaurung fated? If he must confront evil, then perhaps he should have done so in the beginning. It seems his real choice was how and when to die fighting Morgoth, not if. By trying to master doom, he lost everything. I've been reading a lot of mythology lately and a common theme seems to be that you should just make the best of what fate sends you. You can't avoid it, so accept it and do your best. I get a similar vibe from CoH, like Turin's preoccupation with the Curse and his own personal doom stopped him from being the real game-changer he could have been.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 11 2014, 5:31pm
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That made me think of Sador's bit of advice to young Turin that one who runs from their fate often finds they have taken a short-cut to meet it. I wonder if that is not the root of a lot of Turin's problems. When something goes wrong, he gets spooked and runs. Always running, always taking a new name, always trying to hide. As if by keeping his identity secret, he will be elude his doom. Very interesting point! Was killing Glaurung what Turin is "supposed" to do, do you think? So does he achieve his destiny anyway, perhaps with unnecessary collateral damage? Or are you thinking he was "supposed" to have a different role, but botched it? Or, have I not understood this doom & fate thing?
~~~~~~ "… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.” Arthur Martine "nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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nandorin elf
Bree
Jul 12 2014, 2:22am
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I do think it was his destiny to kill Glaurung. All the collateral damage...hmm...I feel that was Morgoth's doing. It's like Turin was the rope in a game of tug-of-war between good and evil. Someone with his charisma, ability to lead, and skill with weapons was a serious threat to Morgoth. He could have rallied Men to fight, but everytime he starts to make a difference(Doriath, Land of the Bow and Helm, Nargothrond), something bad happens and he runs. I just get the feeling if he had stayed and faced the consequences, he could have done more than just kill Glaurung (which was still pretty awesome on its own). I guess I look at Tuor and can't help wondering if Turin could have been like him if he had stopped running from fate. Or maybe he was fated to die from the dragon. I don't know how much fate/the curse/whatever was responsible for. At the very least I think a lot of the death and destruction in his wake was because he tried to run from fate. Not sure if I'm making any sense.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 12 2014, 3:07am
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Turin and Prophecy and the Last Battle...
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That made me think of Sador's bit of advice to young Turin that one who runs from their fate often finds they have taken a short-cut to meet it. I wonder if that is not the root of a lot of Turin's problems. When something goes wrong, he gets spooked and runs. Always running, always taking a new name, always trying to hide. As if by keeping his identity secret, he will be elude his doom. Very interesting point! Was killing Glaurung what Turin is "supposed" to do, do you think? So does he achieve his destiny anyway, perhaps with unnecessary collateral damage? Or are you thinking he was "supposed" to have a different role, but botched it? Or, have I not understood this doom & fate thing? Tying up both of these threads, I must bring in (yet again) that ol' Second Prophecy of Mandos. As a rewrite idea or not its out there, so the concept of Turin rising and striking the blow for Men at the Last Battle is, so to speak, the cat let out of the bag*. The idea is out there, and obviously crossed JRRT mind. So I wonder if given a little flavor of Catholic overtone, Turin is the Man destined to receive the cruelest blow from Morgoth, and thus be our collective instrument at the final day. Not exactly messianic in the divine sense (and he certainly didn't behave like a proper messiah, other than being a very naughty boy) but in a sense of inheriting the task of avenging Man on Evil...maybe? Given his skills, his basic inner honor, he is certainly someone that could be a vessel of quasi-divine revenge for an entire race. Makes me wonder if each race has its own special grudge-circumstance: the Elves, maybe Fingolfin? The Dwarves, Azaghal? And Men, the torture of Turin? *Sorry about the bag, Cats. We promise it won't happen again, it just seemed like a funny idea at the time. Besides it was all CG's idea.
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 12 2014, 3:08am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 12 2014, 3:15am
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Comparing Turin and Tuor in my head, that is. Turin is the wayward Tuor it seems, and he stands so far away and separate from the other characters...I know that JRRT was channeling Kullervo and other European legends in this tale, and maybe that's why it resonates so much with fans of the legendarium in its contrast. In truth Turin's choices were not ALL that bad: but indeed, with the hand of Morgoth in the mix the collateral damage adds up significantly. So I concur, that if we give any passive agency to the 'curse' we must keep in kind that Morgoth kept working it until the end (even by proxy, such as Glaurung). And what Morgoth feared all along happened anyway: the Star was born in Gondolin, and Morgoth fell. He was right to fear Turgon and his city (and oddly enough Tuor's bloodline). Ultimately, the curse injured Turin's family but otherwise...rather backfired.
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 12 2014, 5:03am
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That the fealty of Hurin and the suffering of his family also likely serve a valuable bit of interference for Morgoth finding Gondolin and interfering with Tuor's fate. Hmmmm . Like that quick scene of Tuor and Turin passing by each other in UT. Never the twain shall meet, and Turin draws the hunters away so that Tuor may continue toward Gondolin and his fate (and the fate of Arda). The metaphor in a brief flash - unknown to both.
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 12 2014, 5:04am)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2014, 8:39pm
Post #16 of 20
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You have some good thoughts! I do get a bit of the feeling that Turin had a higher destiny. Whether it was to kill Glaurung specifically, or not, I do think he played an important role. Who else is going to be crazy/brave enough to face that monster? Turin dragon-slayer....has a nice ring to it!! All in all, he didn't do too bad at the end. I don't think his meeting with Tuor was an accident. Given the size of Beleriand, I think it safe to assume that it was 'fated', though what was intended is up for speculation. Their family relation and vastly different fates are two interesting contrasts, but like the point I brought up with Finduilas, I get the sense there is something more-- an undeveloped notion to this chance meeting. Chance meeting in M-E aren't terribly accidental, now are they? Maybe they were meant to meet, and not by Morgoth.... Here I go channeling Gandalf again....
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jul 13 2014, 1:06am
Post #17 of 20
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They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 13 2014, 1:30am
Post #18 of 20
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Excellent visual there Meneldor!
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 13 2014, 8:56pm
Post #19 of 20
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That's my problem with this Destiny stuff …
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Hama is destined to be hewn before the Gates of Helm's Deep, but can choose whether to wear his red shirt or his blue one for the occasion*? Doesn't seem fair, somehow. Not that universes, real or fictitious, will care if I stamp my foot over this :) * The red shirt would be more appropriate , under the circumstances.
~~~~~~ "… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.” Arthur Martine "nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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cats16
Half-elven
Jul 28 2014, 4:25pm
Post #20 of 20
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Just saw this now, LOL! Looks like a certain Schrodinger might be my owner. Darned monkey keeps throwing me in that bag; we swears revenge, precious.
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